85% of med school grads publicly BELITTLED!!

[ZekeMD]

"85% of med school grads last year said they had been publicly belittled or humiliated during their time in school."

This quote came from the 2004 edition of the US News ranking of Americas best graduate schools, Page 35.

It is separate from the text and I cannot find any support or reference to this anywhere in the magazine. Has anyone else seen this quote? If so, do you have any idea what they are talking about??? This just had me worried a bit.

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[Lux Aeterna]

Maybe during pimping in the 3rd year? On the spot questions, ya know, with a resident that started his/her day on the wrong side of the bed?

 

[Jalby]

I thought maybe you were complaining about AOA picking the top 15% of each class and how wrong that was. I was about to give you a strong talking to about how hard real life is. But I have no idea about the op's question.

 

[ZekeMD]

"Maybe during pimping in the 3rd year? On the spot questions, ya know, with a resident that started his/her day on the wrong side of the bed?"

I suppose you could be right, but that is still disturbing.

 

[Goober]

Only 85%?

I thought that everybody would have been humiliated or belittled at least once. Medicine is a rigid heirarchy with med students at the bottom. Attendings and residents like to pimp. Some of your classmates will try to show you up in front of the attending to make themselves look better.

Even nurses and techs ignore you or worse try to make your life miserable (which they are in a very good position to do) if they want.

 

[DrSal]

See, that's not cool. Why couldn't they all just play nice...looks like i'll have to get me some thick skin bfore 3rd year then...

 

[woolie]

Hey Zeke,

I think that's a valid statistic and I have seen it before. Definitely med students are tortured by some nurses, techs and attendings. I have seen it myself and expect to be grilled when I get there. Nurses and techs are notorious for trying to harrass the students and residents and interns and anyone else they might feel they can do it to.

I think it's like when crows mob a hawk, they do it because there's only one hawk and there are many more crows and for that moment the crows can 'win,' especially if they sense the hawk is vulnerable. It makes sense when you think about it, but they'll usually only do it until you get your bearings and can figure out how to deal with them. Once you do, the hazing usually stops. I have seen nurses berate and try and humiliate a new resident really outrageously, saying things like: what kind of doctor are you, you don't even understand the simplest things ... etc.

You toughen up pretty quickly, and learn better coping skills.

 

[klgsatx]

they deserve to belittleed...better to be belittle than to screw up and lose a patient...

 

[ewing]

According to an unscientific poll I conducted, 100% of med school grads are called "doctor" at least some of the time. According to the guy who was painting the deli at the corner, "doctor" is a term of respect, and no one who is called that should feel belittled.

 

[CalBeE]

Hey at least as a med student, you climb a bit higher on the hierarchy compared to high school/college hospital volunteers!

 

[Blade28]

Wait until third year. Plenty of belittlement to be had from attendings, unfortunately.

 

[CalBeE]

Geez, I feel sooo optimistic about my future after reading this thread...thank y'all

 

[basupran]

I remember when I went to the hospital and a nurse knew I was a premed student. When I went to get an x-ray, she had the x-ray emissions pointed to my jewels. I told her I wanted a lead apron to cover myself, and she said "oh gosh, you are gonna be a *** just like the other med students". I straight up told her "yeah, cause I understand what can happen". I got the screw you look. Then, the resident came to treat me, nice lady, very sweet. She asked for the attending to come by and check me out, and he asked me what I was studying. I told him about my desire to enter med school and he flat out told me "don't even bother", and added an insult. When he left, the resident told me not to worry cause the guy is an dingus and insults residents all day. My point is, until you are a full-fledged MD (after residency), it is hard to get respect. It is as if a lot of the people there try to put you down. In a way, it is like a process of culturation, where you are taught that you are ****, and treated like it as well, until you get past that stage, and treat your residents like ****. It is tradition in a way, and it is all-pervading. I went to a PhD defense, and all the older PhD's ganged up on the PhD to be...being total jerks, yelling, what not....the guy eventually successfully defended his PhD and explained that this is like a process where they try to break you in.

I will try my best to be strong, and from the start, I will make it clear that I am not someone to yell at.

 

[CalBeE]

Basupran,

What you actually tell them you're premed? I usually just tell the staff that I'm a begger on the street and they all treat me like a king. They probably wanna get the reputation that they're philanthropists to the poor.

Oh wait a minute...what am I doing on SDN...I should goto Student Begger Network instead

 

[Hermeone]

oh well let them yell and cackle, those cacophonies will flow into my left ear and come put from my right ear....

 

[Heal&Teach]

Third year.. most definitely the time to get "pimped"...

How you're perceived may depend on how well you tend to answer questions about your patients... some attendings and residents will ask you things that they know you might not know. If you can answer some of the questions about your patients during formal case presentations, it would definitely look good. If not, don't feel bad. But of course it probably wouldn't feel great to get the answers wrong in front of your colleagues, esp. if the attending or resident is an a**hole and proceeds to belittle you beyond the embarassment of not knowing. Just remember that the studying doesn't stop after your basic science years - you're called on constantly for information, and if you're lucky, you won't have to do as much studying/reading if you've got a great resident to teach you.

Disclaimer: The above information comes from a current MS doing clinical rotations. The aforementioned may not be true for all situations, but it does happen in most. Be ready.

 

[basupran]

Originally posted by CalBeE
Basupran,

What you actually tell them you're premed? I usually just tell the staff that I'm a begger on the street and they all treat me like a king. They probably wanna get the reputation that they're philanthropists to the poor.

Oh wait a minute...what am I doing on SDN...I should goto Student Begger Network instead

I was asked if I was premed, I worked with an ambulance company so they saw me around...almost all the ambulance workers are pre-med, so they ask if you want to go to med school. I had that pre-med fervor back then...if I were to go back now, I would probably answer something along the lines of what you said....

 

[Goober]

Originally posted by klgsatx
they deserve to belittleed...better to be belittle than to screw up and lose a patient...

unfortunately 99% of the time I have seen a tech or nurse harrass a med student it has more to do with a them harrassing them because they either enjoy it or they are in a position to do so not because they are relly concerned about patient care.

If you ever wonder why so many doctors are dinguses, all you have to do is look at the training they go through and not is not really any wonder. They treat people like they were treated.

 

[Brickhouse]

Originally posted by klgsatx
they deserve to belittleed...better to be belittle than to screw up and lose a patient...

I learn better in a supportive environment - not a degrading one...

BTW....what does "pimping" mean? Is it like turfing where you get stuck with the worst cases?

 

[Heal&Teach]

Pimping meaning that you intentionally get asked questions that you probably wouldn't know so that folks can get a rise out of you... or embarass you, whichever comes first.

Either way, it still sucks.

 

[jlee9531]

another reason i want to go to davis....

alot of the 3rd and 4th years say the nurses are one of the nicest they have ever met...and at least most of the pimpin that goes on isnt in a "belittling" fashion, but some does exist. but for the most part not many of the davis students complained about that stuff. they were happy at the hospital...

 

[HollyJ]

You guys are all weaklings and idiots.

See, it isn't that bad.

 

[Buck Strong]

hmmm...I wonder if the 85% who get belittled has anything to do with the 40% of med students who are clinically depressed at some point of med school. Oh well, hehe, people need to suck it up. Either that or start putting zoloft in the water. I just look at the whole process as kinda like a frat hazing, everyone goes through it, and whatever doesn't kill you makes you tougher.

 

[Heal&Teach]

Originally posted by Buck Strong
hmmm...I wonder if the 85% who get belittled has anything to do with the 40% of med students who are clinically depressed at some point of med school. Oh well, hehe, people need to suck it up. Either that or start putting zoloft in the water. I just look at the whole process as kinda like a frat hazing, everyone goes through it, and whatever doesn't kill you makes you tougher.

I thought the clinical depression had something to do with the lack of sleep.

 

[Buck Strong]

Originally posted by Heal&Teach
I thought the clinical depression had something to do with the lack of sleep.

Maybe...how about a hearty mix of caffine and zoloft in the water?

 

[jayvee]

It amazes me how easily my peers as well as others on SDN readily chalk up rude doctors to some part of a tradition of "pimping". Does it make it more acceptable because it has been done for the past 150 years? Did anyone ever do a study to find if 'pimping' is the most effective way at improving patient safety?

I hope other medical students will see it as there duty to try and do there part in supporting change in the way we are taught. I don't mean risking a poor writeup by a cruel attending, but providing adequate feedback to site coordinators, rewarding those attendings who have made the rotation a GOOD experience through positive feedback.

Medical school administrators are increasingly attuned to listening to student needs.

For example, as a current second year, we had a very thorough but very 'old school' doctor come in and lecture us on his area of expertise. Throughout the 2 hour session, he verbally intimidated a number of students, mocked a few answers, and at one point seemingly insinuated that a female medical student "deserved an easy question" because she was female.

At lunch, I raged to my peers about the inappropriateness of the doctor. My peers responded with, Get used to it -- that's what third year is all about. Now who's attitude is wrong? I think the students who tolerate it are complicit in encouraging it. At a feedback forum organized by the faculty, I named the doctor and my issues with his teaching style and was told that he had, for whatever reason, a very rough few weeks and had been suprisingly gruff with the students. The administration was virtually apologizing for his behavior and yet, other students present, still defended him. They liked his "tough love" attitude.

As this was my first exposure to this kind of 'pimping' maybe I will come to see the educational merits of that system but does anyone else think that it's uncalled for? Does anyone have recommendations on how to take a stand against it and make changes in the system to prevent this?

It's really tantamount to hazing. I can't really see how this is in the benefit of the patient or my education.

 

[Buck Strong]

You learn things by getting them wrong, I think most people would agree with me. However, when you get things wrong and then publicly embarassed for getting it wrong, it sticks in your head like a mofo. Plus it motivates you to study your ass off so it doesn't happen again. Just my experience.

 

[jayvee]

BuckStrong - sure, but is it the best way? I've also had the experience where a truly talented and engaging lecturer has so artfully presented course material that there is no way I'll ever forget the material.

 

[Buck Strong]

Originally posted by jayvee
BuckStrong - sure, but is it the best way? I've also had the experience where a truly talented and engaging lecturer has so artfully presented course material that there is no way I'll ever forget the material.

I agree with that, but from my experience, 10% of profs in med school fits that criteria and everyone else is boring as heck. But anyone can make you look or feel dumb to learn the material

 

[CalBeE]

There's a saying in my culture that "The grapes you can't eat is always sour", meaning that people can be bitter towards you b/c of their jealousy. Sorry for the generalization, but this attitude seems to be common among people who felt that the lives of being doctors are "too stressful" and decide to be nurses or medical technicans instead.