It is definitely a supply-side issue, though what I'll be looking at is fixing the system that artificially suppresses our salaries during training. It is pretty complex, but I think there are some areas that can be improved.
Therapist4Change, what states do not require postdoc hours for licensure?
I'm not quire sure what you are asking. Internship is a required step to get licensed, so while there are multiple avenues to secure an internship (through APPIC or independently), you still need those hours. As for the work you do compared to licensed staff, that varies by your setting. I work at a VA and interns do pretty much everything the staff does, though our pt. loads and outside responsibilities are obviously different.
If you do a search within this forum, you should find your answer.
It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.
I came in with a pretty well rounded training history, but I definitely still had some deficits. If I stepped into a job, even after 5 years of doctoral training, I would have struggled. I think of internship as the last opportunity to fill in the gaps and polish up some of the areas of strength.
Very interesting insight, and I'm sure I'll better understand the when I cross that bridge!It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.
Interns don't know what they don't know, though not as bad as advanced practicum students.
I think we are as well prepared (or better) as the interns who came out 20 years ago, but I'd worry about speciality training if post-docs were de-emphasized. They should absolutely be required for anyone who wants to work in a speciality area. If I had my druthers I would require post docs for any board elligible specialities. As for licensure after internship, it is a double edged sword. I don't worry about the 80% who are very well prepared, I worry about that bottom 10%-20% who squeak by.
I agree that internship should be required for licensure, and that it is a critical part of our training. But I don't know if I see why it should be required for the PhD itself. MDs graduate with their doctoral degrees, and then go onto residency. I think a similar model would work for us - if internship is still required for licensure, then you're still getting the same level of training for licensure (e.g., graduate school + internship). But the difference is that the internship is done postdoctorally, and not predoctorally. People who can't secure internships would still be stuck, but at least they would have their degree and could teach, do research, etc. As for the postdoc, well that's an entirely different (albeit related) can of worms.It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.
Interns don't know what they don't know, though not as bad as advanced practicum students.
I completely agree. I'll be covering this in my manuscript, though it gets a bit more complicated once you start digging around with the particulars.
I agree completely LM02. My concerns relate to the deleterious effect upon perception amongst other healthcare providers that not being accorded the title of "doctor" has after completing the dissertation. When working alongside medical doctors on internship, it is imperative to be accorded the same level of respect amongst professionals at the top echelons of their field. Certainly salary differentials will exist and we will always make less. But young physicians are certainly impressionable and if they see that we don't regard ourselves as doctors during internship, as they do, I can certainly see how many will be slow to embrace us as doctors later on. In APA's zeal to differentiate their internship model from medicine's model, they have inadvertantly created a "second-class" doctorate.
FWIW, they just really get the title. Not the corollary pay, ability to practice, etc.
But the title is important, as it represents to others (especially the MDs) that we psychologists deem interns worthy of the respect that being called "Dr" affords. I'd be in favor of a postdoctoral residency in lieu of predoctoral internship. Somehow, though, I think there could be a fear that moving in this direction would mean (shudder) that sites would have to pay us more than slave wages. Perish the thought!
Yes, but I was thinking of individual practicum opportunities and experiences associated with any given program. The internship process makes you think about the types and variety of clinical experiences you get prior to graduation, even if your program does not emphasize it or offer much advising around it. With internship, students are competing with other students across programs for a training experience prior to their Ph.D. It's harder to get an internship than a postdoc, and I prefer to deal with the complex matching process of internship before the Ph.D. That way, I can try to find opportunities under more typical circumstance, kinda like looking for a regular job, after the Ph.D.
Sadly, we only make half of the resident "slave wages" during our internship year.Then you could just point to the slave wages residents make!
Plus, most of the residents I know get subsidized housing.Sadly, we only make half of the resident "slave wages" during our internship year.
You can't make too too much less than $8/hr, can you?Sadly, we only make half of the resident "slave wages" during our internship year.
If you do, I'm sorry! I'm speaking from ignorance.
Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought I saw on a website that the average residency salary is 46K. Internship year for us is around 20-25K most of the time. I guess that works out to about $11/hour if you figure 40 hour weeks....Unfortunately, from what I've gathered, 40 hours is a vast underestimateYou can't make too too much less than $8/hr, can you?
.I don't claim to be an expert, but the PGY2 Psych residents I work with don't work 80 hrs/week (although I think they probably do work more than 40 hrs/week. I'm not sure if what they do is typical, and I do know that PGY1 is supposedly a tougher year.
and the hours per week doesn't even matter if you're not getting appropriate supervision! I have heard horror stories of people who didn't stay on top of their supervision time and their hours ended up being invalid.Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought I saw on a website that the average residency salary is 46K. Internship year for us is around 20-25K most of the time. I guess that works out to about $11/hour if you figure 40 hour weeks....Unfortunately, from what I've gathered, 40 hours is a vast underestimate
I have heard of people extending their time on internship and post-doc because of inadequate hours, record keeping, and/or proper supervision. We are required to turn in weekly time sheets that keep a running total of all required hours. The first few weeks it drove me nuts because I had to account for literally every minute of my day....but now I love it. I know where I am, and it's been tracked since day 1.
Many programs have them/require them in their clinics. My program had a standard spreadsheet that seemed to be popular in the clinic. I made my own excel sheet for internship, so I could calculate the breakdown of hours according to APPIC headings. It was a bit over the top, but it made me feel better that I had accurate hours. It was also quite fun to develop.
Something about creating spreadsheets is so satisfying! As a contractor, I've made some pretty fun looking earnings/tax/receipts spreadsheets that calculate items that I'll probably never need, but it's fun nonetheless. I'll definitely be using one this time around for practicums/internship.
While it didn't save me any time, it was fun to make and cohorts behind me can use it. I locked any editing because I didn't want people screwing up my masterful coding, so hopefully APPIC doesn't re-arrange their categories.
That's cool, although I must say you and I have different ideas about what constitutes "fun".
Is this really acceptable (if its not made explicit at the site) to call yourself "doctor" if your dissertation is defended, but not yet completed internship? While I agree on principle, pragmatically I don't see how one can do this and not be seen as inappropriate by supervisors, and a douchebag by your co-interns?
my school uses time 2 track for hour totals. It's nice because T2T was set up according to APPIC categories that they use for the internship application. However, the only problem with T2T is that it is collective, so, if you want to know what your hours were for one semester it can be harder to get that info. You just have to be crafty about it. I use T2T but I also use a yearly planner, like the ones many hair dressers have. Every day I write out my schedule and what I did. I'm basically just doing my hours twice because I think it's wise to have a back up. I've heard too many horror stories not to have a back up plan. I currently have my in progress dissertation saved in three different spots, too. One on the hard drive, one in a water/fireproof safe, and one on a flash drive at my parent's house. That may seem a bit extreme but I'd rather be safe now than sorry later.
Sounds extreme buuuuut its really smart! I have a friend completing a PhD in Electrical Engineering who's laptop was stolen with everything on it, and I mean everything! He lost 6 months worth of data collection. So I'm with ya as far as keeping multiple secure copies.
I think this is really common in strictly academic settings - if you are in social psych (or French Literature, or whatever) and defend your dissertation, it's generally acceptable to call yourself "Dr" in the time between your defense and graduation.
A douchebag by co-interns if the site allows it? If co-interns at a site that allows this think that you are a douchebag for calling yourself doctor, as allowed by the site, after you have defended your dissertation, then whose problem is that? It sounds like it is that co-interns' problem. I suspect that there are many other reasons to be considered a douchebag on internship besides calling yourself doctor after having defended your dissertation.
I agree that there are important ethical considerations involved when you are in a clinical setting outside of your academic department. I imagine that, on internship, it would be hard for a post-dissertation intern not to use a title if the site allows this practice. By the way, I had no idea that the use of the term "doctoral candidate" by graduate students was ethically contraindicated. The terms seems so straightforward from our perspective, but I can see how it could be confusing for many.
I was told not to use the title "doctoral candidate" even in academic circles until I am preparing for my dissertation defense. Even to those of us who know what the term means, we're not near "candidacy" for a doctorate until that point. It would really be stretching the term to use it when we are still in classes/ haven't gotten a masters/ haven't passed comps.
My school doesn't allow students to refer to themselves as "doctoral candidates" or "PhD candidates" until they have "advanced to candidacy" which at my program means you have the masters, passed comps, and are approved by ERB on your dissertation topic. I just heard this last week that they might do away with the whole "doctoral candidate" title because of the ethical question regarding the public's understanding of such a title. My first year ethics prof always stressed the difference between "intern" and "psychological trainee," too. At my current practicum site, everyone insists on calling me an "intern." This freaked me out at first because the law in my state is pretty clear on who is considered a psychological intern and I'm not there yet. However, no matter how many times I tell my supervisor or the people at my site that I'm a "psychological trainee" they still call me "intern". I sign my name with my awarded degree and make sure to put "psychological trainee" and leave it at that.
