phillydave

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I'm wondering what information you guys have about what states may have done this already and if it's in the works to happen anywhere else? I remember reading some posts about this a while back, but I don't remember what the details were and I can't find the posts.

I sort of remember it being compared to med school, and how MDs get to be MDs as they begin internship...
 

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This is a really complicated issue. There have been talks in the past about awarding the doctorate prior to the internship year, though it has yet to gain much traction. More traction has been made for getting the post-doc year waived for general licensure, though the vast majority of states still require the hours.

This is actually a topic near and dear to my heart, as I have a manuscript in the making that outlines some benefits to tweaking aspects of the Internship and Post-Doc training periods. I'm hoping to get it journal ready by the Fall....TBD.
 

phillydave

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This is a really complicated issue. There have been talks in the past about awarding the doctorate prior to the internship year, though it has yet to gain much traction. More traction has been made for getting the post-doc year waived for general licensure, though the vast majority of states still require the hours.

This is actually a topic near and dear to my heart, as I have a manuscript in the making that outlines some benefits to tweaking aspects of the Internship and Post-Doc training periods. I'm hoping to get it journal ready by the Fall....TBD.

Ahh I see, I see. So not likely within the next 4 years! Oh well. It's an interesting issue, nonetheless. It seems like the next 10-15 years may hold an abundance of change for the profession; seems like it'll be an interesting time to be entering the field.

I'd love to read your manuscript when it's finished. Keep us posted for when it finds publication.
 

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Eh, that's sometimes proposed as a solution to the match problem. Fixing things on the wrong end, if you ask me.
 

Therapist4Chnge

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Eh, that's sometimes proposed as a solution to the match problem. Fixing things on the wrong end, if you ask me.
It is definitely a supply-side issue, though what I'll be looking at is fixing the system that artificially suppresses our salaries during training. It is pretty complex, but I think there are some areas that can be improved.
 

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It is definitely a supply-side issue, though what I'll be looking at is fixing the system that artificially suppresses our salaries during training. It is pretty complex, but I think there are some areas that can be improved.

Are interns, that have completed all coursework and dissertation requirements, providing the same service (in description and quality) as their non-intern counterparts?

If so, then the current system seems unfair. Although I'm sure there are those who say it's all part of the "paying your dues" process.
 

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More traction has been made for getting the post-doc year waived for general licensure, though the vast majority of states still require the hours.
Therapist4Change, what states do not require postdoc hours for licensure?

Hm, no internship, and only one year required after the Ph.D. That could help, but I wonder what new problems that would present. For example, I wonder if they would require more predoctoral practicum hours, which would present challenges to students who are more heavily focused on research. Also, one of the good things about internship is that the sites must at least go through an accreditation process, whereas local practicum sites of different programs could vary drastically in quality. I'm looking forward to your paper, as well...

JockNerd, I essentially agree. But it's a relatively easy fix (i.e., no predoctoral internship) versus a major, systemic overhaul of the internship system and more; no shock at which one would likely win out.
 

psychmama

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I'd be okay with the internship year, although I agree with T4C that it artificially deflates our salaries. I think it would work better to get rid of the postdoc year, which to me really feels superfluous for many of us. Here's a problem though: licensing laws are the province of each state, so getting uniformity across the country will be next to impossible.
 

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Well, there's a difference between 86'ing the internship for the PhD vs. 86'ing the internship for licensure.

If you get rid of it for the degree, I have a hard time believing that they would get rid of it for licensure. As a result, the internship would essentially become the postdoc. Not a bad idea, actually, as a handful of states have already gotten rid of the current postdoc requirement - and "interns" could (not necessarily "would") be compensated at the level of postdoc. Not to mention, they could be called "Dr." alongside their resident trainee colleagues.

I imagine that internship sites would have a hard time adjusting to this model, as the cost of running the internship would go up considerably (I'm guessing that any clinical revenue from PhD-level "interns" who are unlicensed would probably not be that much different from current masters-level interns?).
 

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Are interns, that have completed all coursework and dissertation requirements, providing the same service (in description and quality) as their non-intern counterparts?
I'm not quire sure what you are asking. Internship is a required step to get licensed, so while there are multiple avenues to secure an internship (through APPIC or independently), you still need those hours. As for the work you do compared to licensed staff, that varies by your setting. I work at a VA and interns do pretty much everything the staff does, though our pt. loads and outside responsibilities are obviously different.

If you are asking about the "quality" of services provided by interns v. licensed staff...I am sure there is a difference in certain areas. Almost all of the clinical staff I work with are very experienced, so I have little doubt they provide better services than me in certain areas, but I am sure I do some things pretty well. Do I think the intern year is important...YES. Some internship sites function like jobs, but I think the more training-oriented sites offer A LOT to their interns.

As for waiving post-doc requirements, I can see the benefit in some respects, but honestly I think they should stick around. Anyone who wants to work in a specialty area should be required to complete a post-doc, but that is just my opinion.

Therapist4Change, what states do not require postdoc hours for licensure?
If you do a search within this forum, you should find your answer.
 

phillydave

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I'm not quire sure what you are asking. Internship is a required step to get licensed, so while there are multiple avenues to secure an internship (through APPIC or independently), you still need those hours. As for the work you do compared to licensed staff, that varies by your setting. I work at a VA and interns do pretty much everything the staff does, though our pt. loads and outside responsibilities are obviously different.

If you are asking about the "quality" of services provided by interns v. licensed staff...I am sure there is a difference in certain areas. Almost all of the clinical staff I work with are very experienced, so I have little doubt they provide better services than me in certain areas, but I am sure I do some things pretty well. Do I think the intern year is important...YES. Some internship sites function like jobs, but I think the more training-oriented sites offer A LOT to their interns.

As for waiving post-doc requirements, I can see the benefit in some respects, but honestly I think they should stick around. Anyone who wants to work in a specialty area should be required to complete a post-doc, but that is just my opinion.



If you do a search within this forum, you should find your answer.

Yeah, #2. I was wondering about the quality of services provided, and you answered that very well, thanks.

I guess I lean towards what LM02 was talking about, re: getting rid of the internship requirement for the PsyD/PhD.
 

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Yeah, #2. I was wondering about the quality of services provided, and you answered that very well, thanks.

I guess I lean towards what LM02 was talking about, re: getting rid of the internship requirement for the PsyD/PhD.
It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.

Interns don't know what they don't know, though not as bad as advanced practicum students. ;) I came in with a pretty well rounded training history, but I definitely still had some deficits. If I stepped into a job, even after 5 years of doctoral training, I would have struggled. I think of internship as the last opportunity to fill in the gaps and polish up some of the areas of strength.

I think we are as well prepared (or better) as the interns who came out 20 years ago, but I'd worry about speciality training if post-docs were de-emphasized. They should absolutely be required for anyone who wants to work in a speciality area. If I had my druthers I would require post docs for any board elligible specialities. As for licensure after internship, it is a double edged sword. I don't worry about the 80% who are very well prepared, I worry about that bottom 10%-20% who squeak by.
 

phillydave

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It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.

Interns don't know what they don't know, though not as bad as advanced practicum students. ;) I came in with a pretty well rounded training history, but I definitely still had some deficits. If I stepped into a job, even after 5 years of doctoral training, I would have struggled. I think of internship as the last opportunity to fill in the gaps and polish up some of the areas of strength.

I think we are as well prepared (or better) as the interns who came out 20 years ago, but I'd worry about speciality training if post-docs were de-emphasized. They should absolutely be required for anyone who wants to work in a speciality area. If I had my druthers I would require post docs for any board elligible specialities. As for licensure after internship, it is a double edged sword. I don't worry about the 80% who are very well prepared, I worry about that bottom 10%-20% who squeak by.
Very interesting insight, and I'm sure I'll better understand the when I cross that bridge!
 

LM02

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It'd be a HUUUUUGE mistake to get rid of the internship requirement. While people don't like the application process, the learning is hard to explain away. Many interns come in with significant deficits in certain areas...many of which had 1000+ hours. The quality of practica training is always a crapshoot, as is the breadth and depth of the training.

Interns don't know what they don't know, though not as bad as advanced practicum students. ;) I came in with a pretty well rounded training history, but I definitely still had some deficits. If I stepped into a job, even after 5 years of doctoral training, I would have struggled. I think of internship as the last opportunity to fill in the gaps and polish up some of the areas of strength.
I agree that internship should be required for licensure, and that it is a critical part of our training. But I don't know if I see why it should be required for the PhD itself. MDs graduate with their doctoral degrees, and then go onto residency. I think a similar model would work for us - if internship is still required for licensure, then you're still getting the same level of training for licensure (e.g., graduate school + internship). But the difference is that the internship is done postdoctorally, and not predoctorally. People who can't secure internships would still be stuck, but at least they would have their degree and could teach, do research, etc. As for the postdoc, well that's an entirely different (albeit related) can of worms.

As someone who is fully licensed after having completed a formal postdoc, I certainly appreciate the benefit of specialized training. At the same time, there is something a bit demoralizing about defending ones dissertation after X years of coursework, clinical work, and research, and not being able to be called "Doctor."
 

Therapist4Chnge

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I agree that internship should be required for licensure, and that it is a critical part of our training. But I don't know if I see why it should be required for the PhD itself. MDs graduate with their doctoral degrees, and then go onto residency. I think a similar model would work for us - if internship is still required for licensure, then you're still getting the same level of training for licensure (e.g., graduate school + internship). But the difference is that the internship is done postdoctorally, and not predoctorally. People who can't secure internships would still be stuck, but at least they would have their degree and could teach, do research, etc. As for the postdoc, well that's an entirely different (albeit related) can of worms.
I completely agree. I'll be covering this in my manuscript, though it gets a bit more complicated once you start digging around with the particulars.
 
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I agree that internship should be required for licensure, and that it is a critical part of our training. But I don't know if I see why it should be required for the PhD itself. MDs graduate with their doctoral degrees, and then go onto residency. I think a similar model would work for us - if internship is still required for licensure, then you're still getting the same level of training for licensure (e.g., graduate school + internship). But the difference is that the internship is done postdoctorally, and not predoctorally. People who can't secure internships would still be stuck, but at least they would have their degree and could teach, do research, etc. As for the postdoc, well that's an entirely different (albeit related) can of worms.

As someone who is fully licensed after having completed a formal postdoc, I certainly appreciate the benefit of specialized training. At the same time, there is something a bit demoralizing about defending ones dissertation after X years of coursework, clinical work, and research, and not being able to be called "Doctor."
I agree completely LM02. My concerns relate to the deleterious effect upon perception amongst other healthcare providers that not being accorded the title of "doctor" has after completing the dissertation. When working alongside medical doctors on internship, it is imperative to be accorded the same level of respect amongst professionals at the top echelons of their field. Certainly salary differentials will exist and we will always make less. But young physicians are certainly impressionable and if they see that we don't regard ourselves as doctors during internship, as they do, I can certainly see how many will be slow to embrace us as doctors later on. In APA's zeal to differentiate their internship model from medicine's model, they have inadvertantly created a "second-class" doctorate.

I have mixed feelings regarding the importance of the internship itself to training. Over the last 20 years haven't the experience hours of internship applicants doubled compared to our mentors? And yet the argument that there is more to learn is not convincing to me. Have human behavioral and emotional problems evolved so much over the last 20 years as to warrant twice as much training?! Many will always defend the status quo, but I say it is possible to be a student perpetually and to continue to train, and train, and train. As I maintained in a thread on the post-doc, I need to see compelling evidence that the extra training confers significant benefits to patients that quantifiable justifies the extra time to train. I have never seen this evidence beyond case examples given in the testimony of those who insist on maintenance of status quo in the face of challenge.
 

ADDICTED2STATS

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I agree that the internship year is crucial. We simply don't learn everything we need to know in grad school. That being said, I don't think it needs to be a pre-doctoral year. I think graduating with a doctorate and then requiring a residency of at least 1 year (or even 2) prior to licensure would put psychology on a more even playing field with the rest of medicine. This could also help with the internship imbalance, as pre- and post- doc spots would become one in the same. Has anyone read the revised ASPPB model licensure act? It looks like this is the direction they wish to move as well. Here's a link:

www.asppb.net/ASPPBModelAct
 

loveoforganic

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I sort of remember it being compared to med school, and how MDs get to be MDs as they begin internship...
FWIW, they just really get the title. Not the corollary pay, ability to practice, etc.
 

psychmama

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FWIW, they just really get the title. Not the corollary pay, ability to practice, etc.
But the title is important, as it represents to others (especially the MDs) that we psychologists deem interns worthy of the respect that being called "Dr" affords. I'd be in favor of a postdoctoral residency in lieu of predoctoral internship. Somehow, though, I think there could be a fear that moving in this direction would mean (shudder) that sites would have to pay us more than slave wages. Perish the thought!:rolleyes:
 

loveoforganic

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Then you could just point to the slave wages residents make! :)
 

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I know of sites where interns are allowed to call themselves "doctor" after they defend their dissertation. Also, I know of departments where students are called "doctor" by the faculty when they defend the dissertation. I understand that it is not "official" if the degree is not conferred, but the point is that the title is allowed at these places. This would certainly help with people's concerns about lowered esteem in the eyes of residents and others. I am surprised that this is not the norm across locations.

Really, the only thing I like about the internship process is that there is a common accreditation mechanism (FWIW), and it increases confidence that psychologists had to at least jump through a common hurdle while studying at programs of varying quality.
 

loveoforganic

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Is there not a centralized accrediting organization for clinical psych programs?
 

PsychMode

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Is there not a centralized accrediting organization for clinical psych programs?
Yes, but I was thinking of individual practicum opportunities and experiences associated with any given program. The internship process makes you think about the types and variety of clinical experiences you get prior to graduation, even if your program does not emphasize it or offer much advising around it. With internship, students are competing with other students across programs for a training experience prior to their Ph.D. It's harder to get an internship than a postdoc, and I prefer to deal with the complex matching process of internship before the Ph.D. That way, I can try to find opportunities under more typical circumstance, kinda like looking for a regular job, after the Ph.D.
 

psychmama

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Really, the only thing I like about the internship process is that there is a common accreditation mechanism (FWIW), and it increases confidence that psychologists had to at least jump through a common hurdle while studying at programs of varying quality.
Agreed.:)
 

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You can't make too too much less than $8/hr, can you? :p If you do, I'm sorry! I'm speaking from ignorance.
Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought I saw on a website that the average residency salary is 46K. Internship year for us is around 20-25K most of the time. I guess that works out to about $11/hour if you figure 40 hour weeks....Unfortunately, from what I've gathered, 40 hours is a vast underestimate :rolleyes:.
 

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$8/hr with 80 hour weeks with time and a half for "overtime" = a 40k salary, which is a reasonable average for hours worked for medical residents. I don't have the slightest idea what kind of hours intern year psychology students work though.
 

psychmama

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$8/hr with 80 hour weeks with time and a half for "overtime" = a 40k salary, which is a reasonable average for hours worked for medical residents. I don't have the slightest idea what kind of hours intern year psychology students work though.
I don't claim to be an expert, but the PGY2 Psych residents I work with don't work 80 hrs/week (although I think they probably do work more than 40 hrs/week. I'm not sure if what they do is typical, and I do know that PGY1 is supposedly a tougher year.:)
 

loveoforganic

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Psych tends to be on the low end hours-wise. Surgical residencies can go over 100. So 80 was just my rough average of what I've seen reported. (80 is technically the cap though).
 

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Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought I saw on a website that the average residency salary is 46K. Internship year for us is around 20-25K most of the time. I guess that works out to about $11/hour if you figure 40 hour weeks....Unfortunately, from what I've gathered, 40 hours is a vast underestimate :rolleyes:.
and the hours per week doesn't even matter if you're not getting appropriate supervision! I have heard horror stories of people who didn't stay on top of their supervision time and their hours ended up being invalid.
 

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and the hours per week doesn't even matter if you're not getting appropriate supervision! I have heard horror stories of people who didn't stay on top of their supervision time and their hours ended up being invalid.
I have heard of people extending their time on internship and post-doc because of inadequate hours, record keeping, and/or proper supervision. We are required to turn in weekly time sheets that keep a running total of all required hours. The first few weeks it drove me nuts because I had to account for literally every minute of my day....but now I love it. I know where I am, and it's been tracked since day 1.
 

phillydave

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Does anyone attend a school where the tracking of hours is done with a computer program/spreadsheet or electronically (like a log-in sort of thing)? During my masters program there were times I wanted to freak when keeping track of the hundreds of time sheets and supervision logs I had to organize.
 

Therapist4Chnge

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Does anyone attend a school where the tracking of hours is done with a computer program/spreadsheet or electronically (like a log-in sort of thing)? During my masters program there were times I wanted to freak when keeping track of the hundreds of time sheets and supervision logs I had to organize.
Many programs have them/require them in their clinics. My program had a standard spreadsheet that seemed to be popular in the clinic. I made my own excel sheet for internship, so I could calculate the breakdown of hours according to APPIC headings. It was a bit over the top, but it made me feel better that I had accurate hours. It was also quite fun to develop.
 

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Many programs have them/require them in their clinics. My program had a standard spreadsheet that seemed to be popular in the clinic. I made my own excel sheet for internship, so I could calculate the breakdown of hours according to APPIC headings. It was a bit over the top, but it made me feel better that I had accurate hours. It was also quite fun to develop.
Something about creating spreadsheets is so satisfying! As a contractor, I've made some pretty fun looking earnings/tax/receipts spreadsheets that calculate items that I'll probably never need, but it's fun nonetheless. I'll definitely be using one this time around for practicums/internship.
 

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Something about creating spreadsheets is so satisfying! As a contractor, I've made some pretty fun looking earnings/tax/receipts spreadsheets that calculate items that I'll probably never need, but it's fun nonetheless. I'll definitely be using one this time around for practicums/internship.
While it didn't save me any time, it was fun to make and cohorts behind me can use it. I locked any editing because I didn't want people screwing up my masterful coding, so hopefully APPIC doesn't re-arrange their categories. ;)
 

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I know of sites where interns are allowed to call themselves "doctor" after they defend their dissertation. Also, I know of departments where students are called "doctor" by the faculty when they defend the dissertation. I understand that it is not "official" if the degree is not conferred, but the point is that the title is allowed at these places. This would certainly help with people's concerns about lowered esteem in the eyes of residents and others. I am surprised that this is not the norm across locations.
Is this really acceptable (if its not made explicit at the site) to call yourself "doctor" if your dissertation is defended, but not yet completed internship? While I agree on principle, pragmatically I don't see how one can do this and not be seen as inappropriate by supervisors, and a douchebag by your co-interns?

Alternatively, what if you moonlight as a psych assistant in the community during intern year? Is it deceiving to call yourself Dr. in a private practice as long as you're not using the protected term psychologist?
 

TenaciousGirl

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Does anyone attend a school where the tracking of hours is done with a computer program/spreadsheet or electronically (like a log-in sort of thing)? During my masters program there were times I wanted to freak when keeping track of the hundreds of time sheets and supervision logs I had to organize.
my school uses time 2 track for hour totals. It's nice because T2T was set up according to APPIC categories that they use for the internship application. However, the only problem with T2T is that it is collective, so, if you want to know what your hours were for one semester it can be harder to get that info. You just have to be crafty about it. I use T2T but I also use a yearly planner, like the ones many hair dressers have. Every day I write out my schedule and what I did. I'm basically just doing my hours twice because I think it's wise to have a back up. I've heard too many horror stories not to have a back up plan. I currently have my in progress dissertation saved in three different spots, too. One on the hard drive, one in a water/fireproof safe, and one on a flash drive at my parent's house. That may seem a bit extreme but I'd rather be safe now than sorry later.
 

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my school uses time 2 track for hour totals. It's nice because T2T was set up according to APPIC categories that they use for the internship application. However, the only problem with T2T is that it is collective, so, if you want to know what your hours were for one semester it can be harder to get that info. You just have to be crafty about it. I use T2T but I also use a yearly planner, like the ones many hair dressers have. Every day I write out my schedule and what I did. I'm basically just doing my hours twice because I think it's wise to have a back up. I've heard too many horror stories not to have a back up plan. I currently have my in progress dissertation saved in three different spots, too. One on the hard drive, one in a water/fireproof safe, and one on a flash drive at my parent's house. That may seem a bit extreme but I'd rather be safe now than sorry later.
Sounds extreme buuuuut its really smart! I have a friend completing a PhD in Electrical Engineering who's laptop was stolen with everything on it, and I mean everything! He lost 6 months worth of data collection. So I'm with ya as far as keeping multiple secure copies.

T2T sounds interesting, I'll look into it, thanks
 

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We all use Time 2 Track at my program.
 

LM02

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Is this really acceptable (if its not made explicit at the site) to call yourself "doctor" if your dissertation is defended, but not yet completed internship? While I agree on principle, pragmatically I don't see how one can do this and not be seen as inappropriate by supervisors, and a douchebag by your co-interns?

Alternatively, what if you moonlight as a psych assistant in the community during intern year? Is it deceiving to call yourself Dr. in a private practice as long as you're not using the protected term psychologist?
I think this is really common in strictly academic settings - if you are in social psych (or French Literature, or whatever) and defend your dissertation, it's generally acceptable to call yourself "Dr" in the time between your defense and graduation.

On internship and in other clinical contexts, I don't think it's as benign as in an strictly academic setting.

When I was studying for the EPPP, the ethics part of the training materials made it very explicit that grad students should not represent themselves publicly as "doctoral candidates," as the general public may not understand this term and may interpret it to mean that they already hold doctorates. In the spirit of that interpretation of the ethics code, I feel like it would be equally misleading to call yourself "Dr" if you have not technically completed all of your requirements (e.g., the full internship year) for the PhD and your degree has not officially been conferred.

When I see "doctoral candidate" in grad students' email signatures, it does make me cringe a little now. At the same time, I never heard of that until I studied for the EPPP - and by and large, most people are doing that *after* they have already gotten their degree. At that point, it's too little too late.
 

PsychMode

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Is this really acceptable (if its not made explicit at the site) to call yourself "doctor" if your dissertation is defended, but not yet completed internship? While I agree on principle, pragmatically I don't see how one can do this and not be seen as inappropriate by supervisors, and a douchebag by your co-interns?

Alternatively, what if you moonlight as a psych assistant in the community during intern year? Is it deceiving to call yourself Dr. in a private practice as long as you're not using the protected term psychologist?
A douchebag by co-interns if the site allows it? If co-interns at a site that allows this think that you are a douchebag for calling yourself doctor, as allowed by the site, after you have defended your dissertation, then whose problem is that? It sounds like it is that co-interns' problem. I suspect that there are many other reasons to be considered a douchebag on internship besides calling yourself doctor after having defended your dissertation.

My understanding is that the use of the term doctor iis supposed to be limited to the sites that allow it. Students just adapt to the norms of the particular location where they are working (within reason).
 
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LM02

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For what it's worth, I defended my dissertation 6 weeks before I started internship. For the entire internship year, I signed all of my notes MYNAME, M.A.

But because I had defended early, my graduate program allowed me to graduate that May, even though I didn't finish internship until the end of June. For those last 2 months, I did use "Dr" in clinical contexts, and I did sign my name with the PhD. At that point, I had technically been awarded the PhD, so it was legit.

I think the issue is that, by and large, most programs do not address this question up front, and may not have an explicit policy on the matter one way or the other. This leaves interns to just choose what to do, which is where the douchebaggery might become more of an issue. If the program has an explicit policy, and the interns are aware of the policy, then I don't see the problem. If it's a liability issue, it will fall on the program and not the intern.
 

PsychMode

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I think this is really common in strictly academic settings - if you are in social psych (or French Literature, or whatever) and defend your dissertation, it's generally acceptable to call yourself "Dr" in the time between your defense and graduation.

On internship and in other clinical contexts, I don't think it's as benign as in an strictly academic setting.

When I was studying for the EPPP, the ethics part of the training materials made it very explicit that grad students should not represent themselves publicly as "doctoral candidates," as the general public may not understand this term and may interpret it to mean that they already hold doctorates. In the spirit of that interpretation of the ethics code, I feel like it would be equally misleading to call yourself "Dr" if you have not technically completed all of your requirements (e.g., the full internship year) for the PhD and your degree has not officially been conferred.

When I see "doctoral candidate" in grad students' email signatures, it does make me cringe a little now. At the same time, I never heard of that until I studied for the EPPP - and by and large, most people are doing that *after* they have already gotten their degree. At that point, it's too little too late.
I agree that there are important ethical considerations involved when you are in a clinical setting outside of your academic department. I imagine that, on internship, it would be hard for a post-dissertation intern not to use a title if the site allows this practice. By the way, I had no idea that the use of the term "doctoral candidate" by graduate students was ethically contraindicated. The terms seems so straightforward from our perspective, but I can see how it could be confusing for many.
 

KillerDiller

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I had no idea that the use of the term "doctoral candidate" by graduate students was ethically contraindicated. The terms seems so straightforward from our perspective, but I can see how it could be confusing for many.
I was told not to use the title "doctoral candidate" even in academic circles until I am preparing for my dissertation defense. Even to those of us who know what the term means, we're not near "candidacy" for a doctorate until that point. It would really be stretching the term to use it when we are still in classes/ haven't gotten a masters/ haven't passed comps.
 

TenaciousGirl

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I was told not to use the title "doctoral candidate" even in academic circles until I am preparing for my dissertation defense. Even to those of us who know what the term means, we're not near "candidacy" for a doctorate until that point. It would really be stretching the term to use it when we are still in classes/ haven't gotten a masters/ haven't passed comps.
My school doesn't allow students to refer to themselves as "doctoral candidates" or "PhD candidates" until they have "advanced to candidacy" which at my program means you have the masters, passed comps, and are approved by ERB on your dissertation topic. I just heard this last week that they might do away with the whole "doctoral candidate" title because of the ethical question regarding the public's understanding of such a title. My first year ethics prof always stressed the difference between "intern" and "psychological trainee," too. At my current practicum site, everyone insists on calling me an "intern." This freaked me out at first because the law in my state is pretty clear on who is considered a psychological intern and I'm not there yet. However, no matter how many times I tell my supervisor or the people at my site that I'm a "psychological trainee" they still call me "intern". I sign my name with my awarded degree and make sure to put "psychological trainee" and leave it at that.