A Bad Convo with a Program Coordinator...

[DonStracci]

So, I just had a very uncomfortable conversation with the program coordinator at the program where I'm interviewing this week... ugghh.
(Phone rings)
Me: Hello?
Coordinator: Hi, this is____, we just wanted to see if you wanted to have dinner the night before your interview this week. (I had already refused this dinner because I know all the residents quite well already and my husband is not free to come with me tomorrow).
Me: No, I'm sorry, I am not available to have dinner tomorrow night.
Coordinator: Oh! (sounds very surprised). Most candidates want a free dinner...
I didn't hear the rest of what she said because my 2 year old nephew started screaming and tantruming at my feet.
Me: (trying to move away from the shrieking) I'm sorry, could you repeat what you just said? (my nephew follows me, shrieking louder).
Coordinator: I was saying, the residents usually like to eat dinner the night before and were asking about it.
Me (with shrieking child at my feet): No, I'm sorry, I am not able to, but I look forward to seeing everyone on Wednesday.
Coordinator: Okay, well (shrieks get louder) we'll see... (cannot hear what she says)
Me: I'm sorry, this isn't a good time, but I will see you on Wednesday! Thanks for calling!


Ugghhh. So I've obviously made an error by refusing dinner. And I must sound like I live in a daycare (I didn't mention that Elmo was on quite loud in the background.) The funny thing is I rarely even see my nephew... this was a rare occasion. The coordinator definitely didn't seem pleased that I didn't want dinner. Wonderful.

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[tetris]

Call back at a better time, just to make sure she got the message.

But why aren't you going? So what if you know them already? So what if your husband isn't with you? You need to learn about the program and make a good impression.

 

[DonStracci]

But why aren't you going? So what if you know them already? So what if your husband isn't with you? You need to learn about the program and make a good impression.

I spent 10 weeks there on my clinical rotation there; and recently, I have spent a lot of time with the program director- who is pretty much begging me to come there. I won't gain anything but a free meal out of going to the dinner. This whole dinner thing... I understand the importance of it, even though I find them abhorent. However, with this particular program, I am opting out of it.

 

[tetris]

Well, I hope you're sure that they'll take you (actually, rank you high enough). PDs sometimes exaggerate their interest in candidates in order to make sure they'll have enough people ranking the program.

If it were me, I'd go through all the usual steps, and not rely on my connections with them or their high regard for me. Remember that they have to deal with huge numbers of applicants come ranking time.

 

[DonStracci]

This is true... if I run into problems because I opted out of the dinner... I did it to myself, I guess.

 

[Law2Doc]

I won't gain anything but a free meal out of going to the dinner. This whole dinner thing... I understand the importance of it, even though I find them abhorent. However, with this particular program, I am opting out of it.

I think you are playing with fire. It's not about a free dinner, it's about the PD getting resident feedback about you, and letting them observe you in a less formal setting, to see if you are the type of person they'd want to hang out with outside of the hospital. This is important to programs which generally want their residents to be buds (not in small part because this fosters a collegial atmosphere and a system where folks cover for each other). And while you might not care about the free dinner, the residents who don't get one because you aren't showing may feel snubbed. Honestly, if there's a way to go to these pre-interview shindigs, the smart move is always to go. Saying "they know me well enough" simply isn't wise. Nor does it make sense to find such a thing "abhorrent". That just makes no sense.

 

[DonStracci]

I think you are playing with fire.

Indeed I am... I guess if it was a program I cared more about, I would be more eager to attend the dinner. As for the abhorence of these dinners, they can be awkward. The scrutiny is a bit uncomfortable, though expected. And I was very, very surprised at the pressure I got to drink alcohol at the last one I went to. I've got ~15 more of these dinners to attend, so... we'll see how it goes. Now that I'm a few hours away from the conversation with the coordinator, I'm not stressing about it- why should I, if it's not a program about which I'm excited?

I know I have to play "The Game" of the interview process... but there's parts of this game that I don't like.

 

[Law2Doc]

I know I have to play "The Game" of the interview process... but there's parts of this game that I don't like.

The program you don't care about today may be the one that saves you from the scramble tomorrow -- it generally pays to put on a smile and sell yourself even if you hope not to have to go there. You never know.

As far as playing "the game" -- that's just part of any career. You are either going to sell yourself in social settings, or they are going to have to assume, rightly, that you aren't going to be someone who wants to hang out with them outside of the hospital, if you get the job. Which is going to make it hard for them to give you the nod over someone they find more socially available. This is a two way street, and they have to like hanging out with you as much as you like working with them. That shouldn't be abhorrent -- it simply makes good sense.

While I don't think you need to succumb to peer pressure over drinking, it seems they are trying to feel you out to see if you are going to be part of the gang that grabs a drink after work, which likely would be the type of person they are more apt to recommend to the PD. Have a non-alcoholic beverage, or get a drink to just hold in front of you if you don't imbibe. They perhaps don't feel comfortable drinking on the program's tab if you aren't having anything, or are simply trying to gauge what you will be like socially, should their program rank you. There are ways to sell yourself in this arena without doing things you are uncomfortable with. But don't avoid these situations as "awkward" because if you end up with this program, these are the folks who you are going to have to be "awkward" around for 70ish hours/week.

I get what you are saying, but still think you are making a faux pas.

 

[DonStracci]

Thanks for the comments- I really do appreciate them. I've played The Game for years- medicine is my second career- and know my way around corporate/social functions. This self-chosen faux pas is hopefully one of very few as I go through this process. As for the drinking- I can't drink because of medication, to be honest- and I'm usually very comfortable sipping my diet soda whilst everyone else drinks. And usually that's not an issue. That pushy resident through me for a loop.
I've emailed the residents from the program with whom I'm closest about the dinner, so I'm not worried about it from that perspective... I guess we'll see how it turns out.
Thanks again!

 

[John Deere Gree]

I've been told to attend the dinners no matter what. I won't be practicing what I preach in a few days since I have back to back interviews, and didn't realize I won't get finished with one interview until around 5pm, then I have a 4 hour drive to make it to the next locale. Ah well, crap happens and if they fault me for not attending sorry, I'm trying to keep my travel expenses down, and do not want to make another airplane reservation.

As far as the drinking issue. My last dinner I didn't drink at because seriously, if I'm going to eat like a pig at all these fancy restaurants I don't want to gain the interview 15, in addition to the already planned for intern 15 (not to mention the already gained clerkship 15). I'm not a big drinker in the first place. If they tell the PD not to accept me because I didn't drink, well screw it I don't want to be a part of that program.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think you should have just told the program coordinator that you were babysitting your nephew and apologize for the screaming in the background and turned down the TV, then finished your conversation.

I would have taken the phone call to mean that she wants you at the dinner, and would have tried to make an effort to go. I don't necessarily disagree with you that they can be onerous, but usually I thought they were OK. I honestly felt for the internal medicine programs that I interviewed at that it made ZERO difference, unless you did something completely obnoxious. However, at a small family practice or surgical program I could see it being a factor in the decision-making. I believe it was held against me at one of my fellowship interviews that I didnt make the dinner the night before...it was because of travel delays. Now I'm glad I didn't get in there because I think some of the fellows were probably jerks anyhow.

It doesn't sound like you want to go there anyway...but they might figure that out by you not going to the dinner. If you want to beg off these things in the future, I'd make up some excuse like your travel plans preclude you being able to make it, etc.

 

[DonStracci]

I guess I should have been more clear about this from the start- I know these residents, and the program, well. I've ate many, many breakfasts, lunches, dinners, and a few third-shift snacks with them. I've met some of their spouses and changed their kids diapers. Thought the convo kind of upset me, I honestly think that is one dinner that could be skipped with no problems (and as the interview was wonderful, I'm pretty sure that's the case). However, I will definitely be going to most of these things in the future, as I won't be so chummy with any other program.

 

[txguy]

I guess I should have been more clear about this from the start- I know these residents, and the program, well. I've ate many, many breakfasts, lunches, dinners, and a few third-shift snacks with them. I've met some of their spouses and changed their kids diapers. Thought the convo kind of upset me, I honestly think that is one dinner that could be skipped with no problems (and as the interview was wonderful, I'm pretty sure that's the case). However, I will definitely be going to most of these things in the future, as I won't be so chummy with any other program.

Totally understand that you know the program well and even (!) change the residents' kids' diapers, but still why risk it?

-tx

 

[roadrunnerrita]

Thought the convo kind of upset me, I honestly think that is one dinner that could be skipped with no problems (and as the interview was wonderful, I'm pretty sure that's the case).

I think you are OK. I mean, you can't make it, you can't make it! People have stuff to do (like take care of screaming children, drive from one interview to the other, and wait for planes to be fixed . In the end, it's likely not going to be a factor in their decision because they will know where you want to end up. You'll probably tell them yourself.
I did not go to the dinner that my school's IM department offered because I am studying for step II. They don't need a dinner to know me, and I needed the evening alcohol-free to re-learn OB.

Stop by the office and gush how you are so sorry you can't make it if you feel really bad about the convo.

 

[sleepingneuro]

At one of my recent interviews I was able to take a peek at my file. To my surprise, my file contained every single email I sent to the coordinator. It also had my phone conversations with the PD and the resident coordinator summarized.

 

[Samoa]

At one of my recent interviews I was able to take a peek at my file. To my surprise, my file contained every single email I sent to the coordinator. It also had my phone conversations with the PD and the resident coordinator summarized.

This is standard practice. You should expect that every interaction you have with any staff or faculty at the program during application season will end up in your file.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

At one of my recent interviews I was able to take a peek at my file. To my surprise, my file contained every single email I sent to the coordinator. It also had my phone conversations with the PD and the resident coordinator summarized.

This would be standard in any professional hiring process. I am surprised that you find it surprising. Remember that I don't want to look dumb either, so I need to know the status of everyone's application, and what's been discussed, so the notes are more to jog my memory than to affect your ranking (but they could do both).

 

[DonStracci]

This is standard practice. You should expect that every interaction you have with any staff or faculty at the program during application season will end up in your file.

Yes, I know that's standard... so my file will have:
Telephone Conversation 10/27 4 pm: Discussed pre-interview dinner. Applicant unable to be fully understood due to screaming child and Backyardigans blaring in the background.

 

[DonStracci]

You should expect that every interaction you have with any staff or faculty at the program during application season will end up in your file.

This comes back to haunt me (sort of)- on my last day of an elective a few months ago at a program to which I am applied, I got an awful UTI- painful, hematuria/pyuria, eventually progressed to pyelo. I'd never had a UTI, and that hematuria really frightened me. I called my family doc to get in to be seen immediately, and tried to find my program coordinator to tell her the situation/apologize for leaving early/say goodbye on the last day. She wasn't answering her pages so I scrawled the most unprofessional, messiest note ever written by a 4th year med student: (similar to this

Dr. ____ I am so sorry to suddenly leave I saw my patients I wrote notes they're in the charts, I have hematuria and I am in pain and I am leaving to see my doctor, I am so sorry, I couldn't find you, I also have pyuria. Thanks for working with me this month.

I really was panicked (and as it turned out pretty ill) so I wasn't thinking straight. So when I went back a week later to do my formal exit interview, she pulls out my application file and there it is, in all its messy, run-on glory. I am so embarrassed about that note. She was nice about it, but I'm sure it's still there in my file. I wrote a very pretty, official thank-you-for-working-with-me note (to try to negate that messy POS).

 

[sleepingneuro]

This would be standard in any professional hiring process. I am surprised that you find it surprising. Remember that I don't want to look dumb either, so I need to know the status of everyone's application, and what's been discussed, so the notes are more to jog my memory than to affect your ranking (but they could do both).

The good thing is that I am always professional (in and out of the hospital) and thus, I had nothing to be ashamed of regarding the emails and phone conversation.
Indeed, the resident coordinator had a small but possitve personal note about our conversations.
I was surprised as this is my first real job interview other than working in the military with the SF community. Interviews there were very informal...