A DO just told me that Carribean MD > DO for competitive residencies

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I would be curious to hear certain programs' (though they may be the minority) explanations for favoring Caribbean students over DO's.
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The only programs I know of that actively rank Carib grads over DOs around here have reputations as sweatshops.
 
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Plecopotamus said:
When you submit evidence to support your point, make sure you understand it well enough to know what it's saying.

Overall, Neurology only has about half enough US MD applicants as it would need to fill its seats, so even "good" Neuro residencies are within the reach of competent DO / IMG / FMG applicants. Indeed, outside of the "top tier" programs, you'll find many Neuro residencies are only about 50% US MD grads, and it's a field where some programs, recognizing the 50% reality, have done well to recognize the benefit of targeting the strongest not-US-MD applicants over weak US MDs. There are programs (like mine) that seem to favor IMG>Carib>DO, while others (particularly in the midwest) are the complete opposite), and that is just a cultural bias from the individual PD/Chair/etc.

Furthermore, when looking at any given program, don't forget that you can't tell whether that program ranked the FMGs higher than the DOs or vice versa, or how many scrambled/SOAPed into their spots . . . .merely what the program ended up with. Indeed, there was one year in which C (a top tier Neuro program) was so malignant to their interviewees that they had to fill a bunch of seats with scrambling IMG/FMGs -- not because they like them, but because they had no choice. Do you hold it up as an example of success for those individuals? Or a mixed basket of luck and misfortune (in the opinion of many I know who interviewed there, the doors opened by the name could never clear the cloud of misery that seems to follow their residents). I wrote this before you added the UCSF example, and will not claim to know the circumstances of that class, however, I will tell you that while it is a top program for both Neuro and Psych, I have known many people (myself included) who did not rank it highly b/c of the unwelcoming atmosphere in fields in which that sorely and glaringly sticks out when you're reviewing your interview days.

So, you can look at overall data and make a judgment as to whether it's foolish to go to the islands for an MD as opposed to staying in the US for a DO, but do not drag individual residencies in as an example -- it hurts your point and makes you (unnecessarily) look like you couldn't find better support of your completely valid point when your example means something else entirely to those with more info than you -- you held up a non-highly-regarded Neurology program as an example . . . one at a hospital in financial trouble, where residents acknowledged inadequate nursing support on my interview day, one within a stone's throw of some of the best academic Neurology in the country such that the most interesting cases are often lured away, and the only place I ever interviewed where my interviewers said disparaging things about the residents (unheard of outside of the top programs in our super friendly field). You and your DO colleagues can and should aim higher than that.
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Lol, another hateful MD student/physician, cannot tolerate anyone being the best but himself/herself. Yawn, your arguments make me sleepy. DO has their own U.S. residency while Caribean med schools dont. And given everything else equal (scorewise, experience, research..) ,you really think that someone will favor foreign trained medical students over U.S. trained medical students (yes even DO)?
 
Man, you're taking this way too seriously. It was never my intention to make it seem like my argument was meant to be an academic study about IMG vs. DO. I understand that there are glaring holes in what I'm saying. The point I was trying to make is that, while true that DOs don't have US MD parity, the idea that DOs are completely shun out of top institutions in comparison to caribbean MD is ridiculous. But hey, if you want to go into the Caribbean with its insane attrition rate because you think maybe you'll match into neurosurgery at MGH much more easily than a DO, be my guest.

Plecopotamus said:
When you submit evidence to support your point, make sure you understand it well enough to know what it's saying.

Overall, Neurology only has about half enough US MD applicants as it would need to fill its seats, so even "good" Neuro residencies are within the reach of competent DO / IMG / FMG applicants. Indeed, outside of the "top tier" programs, you'll find many Neuro residencies are only about 50% US MD grads, and it's a field where some programs, recognizing the 50% reality, have done well to recognize the benefit of targeting the strongest not-US-MD applicants over weak US MDs. There are programs (like mine) that seem to favor IMG>Carib>DO, while others (particularly in the midwest) are the complete opposite), and that is just a cultural bias from the individual PD/Chair/etc.

Furthermore, when looking at any given program, don't forget that you can't tell whether that program ranked the FMGs higher than the DOs or vice versa, or how many scrambled/SOAPed into their spots . . . .merely what the program ended up with. Indeed, there was one year in which C (a top tier Neuro program) was so malignant to their interviewees that they had to fill a bunch of seats with scrambling IMG/FMGs -- not because they like them, but because they had no choice. Do you hold it up as an example of success for those individuals? Or a mixed basket of luck and misfortune (in the opinion of many I know who interviewed there, the doors opened by the name could never clear the cloud of misery that seems to follow their residents). I wrote this before you added the UCSF example, and will not claim to know the circumstances of that class, however, I will tell you that while it is a top program for both Neuro and Psych, I have known many people (myself included) who did not rank it highly b/c of the unwelcoming atmosphere in fields in which that sorely and glaringly sticks out when you're reviewing your interview days.

So, you can look at overall data and make a judgment as to whether it's foolish to go to the islands for an MD as opposed to staying in the US for a DO, but do not drag individual residencies in as an example -- it hurts your point and makes you (unnecessarily) look like you couldn't find better support of your completely valid point when your example means something else entirely to those with more info than you -- you held up a non-highly-regarded Neurology program as an example . . . one at a hospital in financial trouble, where residents acknowledged inadequate nursing support on my interview day, one within a stone's throw of some of the best academic Neurology in the country such that the most interesting cases are often lured away, and the only place I ever interviewed where my interviewers said disparaging things about the residents (unheard of outside of the top programs in our super friendly field). You and your DO colleagues can and should aim higher than that.
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feeling-dizzy said:
Lol, another hateful MD student/physician, cannot tolerate anyone being the best but himself/herself. Yawn, your arguments make me sleepy. DO has their own U.S. residency while Caribean med schools dont. And given everything else equal (scorewise, experience, research..) ,you really think that someone will favor foreign trained medical students over U.S. trained medical students (yes even DO)?
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I'm not hateful of DOs, and I think the Carib schools should be effectively shut down, because I think they're preying on our country's student loans. I just was cautioning a pre-med that there's far more that goes into the list of people in a residency, and that cherry picking examples when you haven't been through the process and don't know the field too well, means your examples might actually say something you don't want them to.

Yes, there are programs that favor foreign grads over DOs. I am at one of them.
I have not asked the PD or Chair about it -- I don't know why they do it, but they only interview maybe 1 DO a year. It's also hard to set the criteria of "everything else equal", because a lot of the foreign grads in our field are people who have extensive Neuroscience research and grad work, and many others have at least proven themselves in a year or more of residency in their home country (the ones in my program have board scores of 270, numerous publications, years of research, etc). DO applicants don't have to do that to match, (because, as you can see they are more desirable overall in the match), but might match to a lesser program because they don't have it. There's just a lot more politics to this than simply looking at a list and saying "oh, this program likes DOs" when they have 2 in their PGY3 class . . . there may be a program that would strongly prefer DOs but treats them so badly on their interview day that they're SOAPing an entire class of Caribs.
 
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user3 said:
I would be curious to hear certain programs' (though they may be the minority) explanations for favoring Caribbean students over DO's.
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Mad Jack said:
The only programs I know of that actively rank Carib grads over DOs around here have reputations as sweatshops.
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I can't give an answer for why it happens at every program where it's done. I highly suspect at plenty of them, that it's a generational or personal bias that makes no damn sense. I can say with 100% certainty that it does not merely happen at awful programs.
 
As usual, it comes down to the individual. If you're smart, capable, personable, and friendly then it won't much matter what degree is behind your name. In most cases, the differences between a top program match or a middling program match will not lead to substantially different outcomes unless you're trying to stay in research and academia as a full-time career (meaning you're valuing intellectual stimulation and curiosity over actual practice of medicine, but why not get a PhD or dual degree PhD in the first place?). Being an MD or DO is not a guarantee of anything, regardless. People get so caught up in this stuff... the degree is a means to an end. It's just one stage in the training, you've literally got the rest of your life to get where you want to be.
 
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Plecopotamus said:
I can't give an answer for why it happens at every program where it's done. I highly suspect at plenty of them, that it's a generational or personal bias that makes no damn sense. I can say with 100% certainty that it does not merely happen at awful programs.
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They're pretty open about why they take Carib grads and FMGs over DOs at the places I've looked in to around here- basically they'll do whatever it takes to get licensed in this country, so you can work them to the bone and they can't bitch about it, because they know if things go bad, they probably aren't getting a second chance. Work them like slaves, and if they complain? Easy enough to can them. DOs have too many options, it's easy for them to dodge places with a reputation like that, so they don't rank DOs as highly since they likely won't get them anyway.
 
kalat said:
As usual, it comes down to the individual. If you're smart, capable, personable, and friendly then it won't much matter what degree is behind your name. In most cases, the differences between a top program match or a middling program match will not lead to substantially different outcomes unless you're trying to stay in research and academia as a full-time career (meaning you're valuing intellectual stimulation and curiosity over actual practice of medicine, but why not get a PhD or dual degree PhD in the first place?). Being an MD or DO is not a guarantee of anything, regardless. People get so caught up in this stuff... the degree is a means to an end.
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Except being a Carib MD pretty much bones you in the match, statistically. You can be as personable as you want, but most programs are putting your app either straight in the trash or at the bottom of their pile. When you're a PD and you've got over a hundred applicants per spot, you don't have time to sort them based on whether their personal statements are lovely or their letters are good- you need to pre-sort them first. Usually that's done first by where they graduated from, second by Step scores, and third by LoRs. A PD recently commented that with the number of applicants they get, the only personal statements that get read are the ones that they're already set to interview, basically, because ain't nobody got time for that ****. And if you don't get that interview to begin with, it doesn't matter how personable and friendly you are, you aren't getting the spot.
 
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Mad Jack said:
They're pretty open about why they take Carib grads and FMGs over DOs at the places I've looked in to around here- basically they'll do whatever it takes to get licensed in this country, so you can work them to the bone and they can't bitch about it, because they know if things go bad, they probably aren't getting a second chance. Work them like slaves, and if they complain? Easy enough to can them. DOs have too many options, it's easy for them to dodge places with a reputation like that, so they don't rank DOs as highly since they likely won't get them anyway.
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Another layer to this issue: schools like SGU often pay big bucks for certain rotation sites (like in NYC), and by extension, their residency slots.
 
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user3 said:
Another layer to this issue: schools like SGU often pay big bucks for fancy rotation sites (like in NYC), and by extension, their residency slots.
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There's that too. SGU basically has a certain hospital that will not be named by the balls, because they need the money and SGU is willing to pay it.
 
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Mad Jack said:
Except being a Carib MD pretty much bones you in the match, statistically. You can be as personable as you want, but most programs are putting your app either straight in the trash or at the bottom of their pile. When you're a PD and you've got over a hundred applicants per spot, you don't have time to sort them based on whether their personal statements are lovely or their letters are good- you need to pre-sort them first. Usually that's done first by where they graduated from, second by Step scores, and third by LoRs. A PD recently commented that with the number of applicants they get, the only personal statements that get read are the ones that they're already set to interview, basically, because ain't nobody got time for that ****. And if you don't get that interview to begin with, it doesn't matter how personable and friendly you are, you aren't getting the spot.
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I did note, initially, being smart and capable as two primary factors. We're talking about "top" and "competitive," so we're assuming here for comparison's sake everything is the same except for the school the person is from. Also, if people are literally throwing people out by school name first who would want to go there any way? "Ah, yes, I'll take Harvard over Stanford!" I can already imagine what that environment would be like. Who wants to deal with people like that when you're trying to accomplish something? Programs like that obviously attract and recruit certain types of people. Big surprise.
 
kalat said:
I did note, initially, being smart and capable as two primary factors. We're assuming here for comparison's sake everything is the same except for the school the person is from.
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That's what I'm saying. If you've got 240 guy from SGU, 240 guy from UMass, and 240 guy from NYCOM, UMass guy is getting ranked 1, NYCOM guy is getting ranked 2, SGU guy is getting ranked 3, end of story. But the thing is, if you've got 400 apps from USMDs, 80 apps from DOs, and 500 apps from USIMGs and FMGs for 12 spots, chances are you're going to fill your match list almost entirely from the 480 MDs/DOs, then pick for what you've got left out of the USIMGs and FMGs.
user3 said:
by the way, time to change your status to "medical student"!
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I'm planning on keeping the non-student status forever because IDGAF what people think of my status. It's kind of this long-running thing I've got in protest of all the med student (accepted)s out there.
 
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W19 said:
To be fair, Diagnostic Rad which many on SDN claim to be competitive, has almost 100% (ok 99%) match rate for US seniors.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf
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Rads is self-selecting. Plus it has a mean step-score of 241, compounding the self-selection. Top programs in radiology don't even have students from non-top 20 medical schools.

eg: http://radiology.ucsf.edu/education/residency-programs/diagnostic/residents

Putting a top psych program out there as an example that DOs can match to top programs is disingenuous.

That said, you'd much rather be a DO than an IMG for 99.9% of the residencies out there. And for the ones that IMGs have an advantage, you really wouldn't want to be part of their house-staff.
 
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notbobtrustme said:
Rads is self-selecting. Plus it has a mean step-score of 241, compounding the self-selection. Top programs in radiology don't even have students from non-top 20 medical schools.

eg: http://radiology.ucsf.edu/education/residency-programs/diagnostic/residents

Putting a top psych program out there as an example that DOs can match to top programs is disingenuous.

That said, you'd much rather be a DO than an IMG for 99.9% of the residencies out there. And for the ones that IMGs have an advantage, you really wouldn't want to be part of their house-staff.
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The mean step score does not mean much when everyone can match... even independent applicants match rate is rad in better than most other specialties. How you define 'self-selecting'? People would say the same for psych....
 
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Bismillah said:
they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol
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That's ridiculous. This person has never seen the ACGME PD survey or the NRMP charting outcomes reports.

JimmyB123 said:
Yeah and I bet the programs that prefer caribbean MDs over DOs are the better, more competitive programs. In that respect, you are worse off a DO. It sucks but it's life
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JimmyB123 said:
But that's a thing. If you do really really well as a carib MD, you're fine. You can match with no restrictions. If you do really really well as a DO, there are still programs that won't look at you.

So on average, yea DO will be a better bet. But if you think you can do very well and want to give yourself a shot at the competitive programs, Carib MD will probably be a better. But if you don't do well as a Carib MD, you are out of luck; as a DO, you're still fine.

So it comes down to what kind of person you are. Do you think you can do very well? Do you want to take that risk? If you want to, Carib MD offers better rewards
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Incorrect. Again, have you never seen the reports I mention above?

ChiTownBHawks said:
Let's look at the plain-old-facts.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

*With less than a handful of exceptions, every speciality favors DO applicants- the % per speciality in a few cases is much greater for DO applicants (read the link for more info). Further, for the ones that do favor USIMGs the % of PDs that look at/rank either is nearly identical (save for 2: NeuroSurg-- enjoy that 40%, lol-- and ENT, at a whopping 37%) that it is ridiculous to even use it as a debatable point (Ex: Pathology, 93% of PDs will look at DOs vs 94% of PDs will look at USIMGs). Conversely, there are more competitive specialities in which the % of PDs that will interview/rank DOs vs. USIMGs favors DOs considerably (a la Rad Onc., Rads-Diag., Thor. Surg,, Vasc. Surg.).*

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

78% vs 53% NOT including the AOA match....

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

So, if you're gunning for NSurg you sure you want to roll the nice of having a 240 step 1, 14! abstracts/presentations/ publications, 5 work experiences, 5 volunteer experiences (the mean values of independent applicants that matched)? If so, then lucky you, at that point only 40% of PDs will even look at your app. Again, since you are so lucky, then you MIGHT be one of the 17 independent applicants who matched. **The numbers/values are nearly identical for ENT-- the only other speciality which PD's considerably (again- 40% and 37%, of which only a combined 33 people matched total!!!) favor USIMG vs DO. **

Enjoy fun in the sun.
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For the love of God, thank you so much! Getting halfway down the first page and not seeing anyone reference these was driving me crazy. Its blatantly obvious.

Plecopotamus said:
I'm not hateful of DOs, and I think the Carib schools should be effectively shut down, because I think they're preying on our country's student loans. I just was cautioning a pre-med that there's far more that goes into the list of people in a residency, and that cherry picking examples when you haven't been through the process and don't know the field too well, means your examples might actually say something you don't want them to.

Yes, there are programs that favor foreign grads over DOs. I am at one of them.
I have not asked the PD or Chair about it -- I don't know why they do it, but they only interview maybe 1 DO a year. It's also hard to set the criteria of "everything else equal", because a lot of the foreign grads in our field are people who have extensive Neuroscience research and grad work, and many others have at least proven themselves in a year or more of residency in their home country (the ones in my program have board scores of 270, numerous publications, years of research, etc). DO applicants don't have to do that to match, (because, as you can see they are more desirable overall in the match), but might match to a lesser program because they don't have it. There's just a lot more politics to this than simply looking at a list and saying "oh, this program likes DOs" when they have 2 in their PGY3 class . . . there may be a program that would strongly prefer DOs but treats them so badly on their interview day that they're SOAPing an entire class of Caribs.
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There is a big difference between foreign grad and Carib grad. A foreign grad from another country may very well be the best of the best and have incredible credentials, and some of them have always been preferred in certain residencies. There is a different view however of Carib grads.

Overall your statements are correct, and there is more to this than simply seeing who takes DOs and who takes Carib grads, but that is outside of the realm of this discussion. This is simply about whether on a whole (not getting down to the nitty gritty details) competitive programs prefer Carib MDs over DOs.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Right behind you bud.

I should really be studying for my CP midterm tomorrow.
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What's CP?

We just had our Anatomy final last week, and next week is our first molecular bio exam (includes genetics, biochem histology, and embryo). Plus, tomorrow we have an H&P SP encounter. Life can't get any better.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
What's CP?

We just had our Anatomy final last week, and next week is our first molecular bio exam (includes genetics, biochem histology, and embryo). Plus, tomorrow we have an H&P SP encounter. Life can't get any better.
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Cardiopulm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
What's CP?
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mDfkcdl.jpg
 
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Ibn Alnafis MD said:
What's CP?

We just had our Anatomy final last week, and next week is our first molecular bio exam (includes genetics, biochem histology, and embryo). Plus, tomorrow we have an H&P SP encounter. Life can't get any better.
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I know that school ;-)
Also, I'd encourage you to join psych club if you haven't already.
 
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Bismillah said:
Is this true?
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I doubt that. Its always better to go to medical school in the US whether its MD or DO. DOs have the option of AOA residencies if they cannot get into an MD residency.

If you do not get a residency after going to a foreign school, you do not have a job, you still get stuck with thousands of dollars of debt that you cannot discharge in bankruptcy.

I thought about the Caribbean MD path myself but realized it was a huge risk. Many people in those schools get kicked out, probably as much as half the class never graduates, and a sizable number who do graduate do not get residencies.

At my school we have had people match into many tough and prestigious post graduate programs.

Its harder for a DO to match in a competitive program than a US MD though.
 
Mad Jack said:
You'd have to be a potted plant with publications to get in at Yale.
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Now that sounds like a prime candidate. Would suggest for him to aim higher. Like family medicine.
 
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Fill in the blank with the same country name.

If you want to practice in ____, get your education in ____.
 
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PlaqueBuster said:
Fill in the blank with the same country name.

If you want to practice in ____, get your education in ____.
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Always amazes me how many people try to practice in countries they didn't study in and are then surprised at how difficult it is for them to go through the hoops and practice as a IMG/FMG. Seriously, just do what you have to do to make sure you study in the same country you want to practice in. I knew someone from my undergrad who went Carib MD because he thought US DO was beneath him, he failed to match this year and is hoping he can match next year but frankly, the chances are low.
 
SkipJunior said:
Always amazes me how many people try to practice in countries they didn't study in and are then surprised at how difficult it is for them to go through the hoops and practice as a IMG/FMG. Seriously, just do what you have to do to make sure you study in the same country you want to practice in. I knew someone from my undergrad who went Carib MD because he thought US DO was beneath him, he failed to match this year and is hoping he can match next year but frankly, the chances are low.
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didn't this describe you?
 
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user3 said:
didn't this describe you?
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Yep it does. That's why I spend valuable time here warning against Carib medical schools. I'm a living example.
 
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SkipJunior said:
Too early to say. I have some IIs but haven't attended any yet. Thanks for asking. :)
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I gather you're trying to earn you DO on top of you caribbean MD. How do you feel about repeating the material? I mean, you must really want to be a practicing physician.


Thanks for speaking out against the predatory schools! That's good of you to share your experiences with the less informed.
 
J Senpai said:
I gather you're trying to earn you DO on top of you caribbean MD. How do you feel about repeating the material? I mean, you must really want to be a practicing physician.


Thanks for speaking out against the predatory schools! That's good of you to share your experiences with the less informed.
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There's a saying I like to repeat to myself "In the end, the person who achieves their goal is not necessarily the strongest or smartest or most attractive person but rather the person who wants it the most" I want it real bad. If you knew the extent of my hunger towards my goal, it might just surprise you.

You are welcome. A lot of people in SDN don't realize that many many pre-meds still join Carib schools despite knowing the risks because they think they will be that special snowflake that will rise above the rest and match into a residency
 
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SkipJunior said:
There's a saying I like to repeat to myself "In the end, the person who achieves their goal is not necessarily the strongest or smartest or most attractive person but rather the person who wants it the most" I want it real bad. If you knew the extent of my hunger towards my goal, it might just surprise you.

You are welcome. A lot of people in SDN don't realize that many many pre-meds still join Carib schools despite knowing the risks because they think they will be that special snowflake that will rise above the rest and match into a residency
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Was that your mentality when you matriculated?
 
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J Senpai said:
DO doesn't look so lame now, huh? I think your tenacity will pay off, doc. Best of luck!
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Not lame at all. I would be honored to be a DO.
 
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