Just a vent, advice welcome. Same old MD/DO convo :/

[dongonme]

I’m an accepted incoming DO student to a well-known and established school in Philly. The practice where I just started work has both DO ( some physicians who have graduated from the school I will attend) and MD physicians who all serve as faculty for residents associated with a residency program at my DO school.
One of the doctors ( an MD) who knows my resume/ stats when he hired me seems to discourage me from going to this school because apparently “with my stats I can do better” and DO students are “second grade” and have to scramble to find their rotations+ some stuff about how the residencies have merged. I know all these things aren’t true as my partner attends a DO school and I literally watch osteopathic physicians at our practice. By the way, everyone at work now knows I was applying to schools this year, so when doctors ask me casually how it’s going with the process, I share. I've only shared with this doctor when directly asked to me and at my job interview. It just doesn’t make sense why someone would be so discouraging and judgmental about a personal choice, is it because I didn’t advertise this specific school as my top choice from day 1 (never announced any school btw, always kept it vague and said whoever accepts me lol).

When I interviewed with him, I hadn't gotten in anywhere yet so he knew I was a prospective medical student who might apply again next cycle if things didn't work out. Obvs. I was being honest about how long id be able to commit to a position at the practice with the information I knew at the time.
BTW today he asked me "make any decisions about the school" and I said yeah I'll be starting soon ig, and he voluntarily tells me that its not a good decision. I feel intimidated by him and just find it hard to be confident in my responses because I know where his opinions lie. I just don't want to jeopardize any relationships at my job. Fun fact his son also just got into a md school and loves to share that. He seems to be suggesting I take another gap year to apply again? I don’t know if something got lost in translation just because I applied to some MD schools, but it’s really hard for me to tell him “ this is my decision and I’m pretty happy with it”. Maybe I should be more confrontational. I kinda just respond to all his stuff with yeah that’s a lot to think about or just say yeah I'm not really thinking about applying again.

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[Formedschoolapps]

It's your life, you live it the way you want. I think it's none of the physician's business at all what you ultimately decide to do. His logic is a very old-school way of thinking. With DOs matching this year at DUKE for ortho and Stanford for anesthesia, there is no merit to anything he is saying. Congratulation on your acceptance future doctor, you are going to make a fantastic physician one day.

 

[EArlyBirdGetsTheWorm]

First I just think its funny how you say well-established DO school in Philly. I wonder what school it is.

Secondly, at some point you shouldn't worry about other peoples opinions. You chose this school for a reason and you know that you will succeed in whatever specialty you choose to pursue. When he said that his son got into an MD school, you should have said I dont have nepotism to help me sorry. But in all seriousness you should tell him this is my decision and I am happy with it. Whether he is happy for you or not should have no bearing on your happiness.

 

[theoceanman]

I think with your beliefs and by witnessing successful, driven osteopathic physicians around you, I don't think you should let his words get to you. At the end of the day, the overall bigger picture is that you will become a physician, regardless of the two letter difference after the comma, behind your name. Everyone loves to put others down, especially in a field that involves a lot of academics and I think the doctor that is discouraging you might 1) worried about the old school idea of being a DO or 2) just simply putting you down just to make his son look better for his own ego.

If you got an acceptance to any school this cycle in the states, you should be proud and definitely attend that school rather than risking a year of attending off from your life for a luck-drawn chance of getting into another school the next cycle where you'll have to rework your resume, EC's, potentially MCAT, and worry about what to do during your gap year.

 

[Kardio]

If it’s any condolences to you, MDs do this to MDs. Think you’ll have trouble finding a general surgeon s**t talking a non-surgical specialty? Or an academic orthopedist who thinks less of other surgeons? Or even a DO student throwing shade at IMGs? You’ll run into all (or most) of it.

Point is that, no matter your place on the pecking order, someone is going to think less of your accomplishments. Don’t ignore honest, well-meaning advise. Oftentimes people just want to lend you a perspective you hadn’t considered. But if it’s not helpful to you, or if it’s frankly malignant, just tune it out.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

He's right. You should go Caribbean so you can have "MD" embroidered on your coat, then everyone can know at a glance how good of a doctor you are.

/s

 

[BoneWizahd]

That well established school in philly (lol) has great rotations, hell they even have their own derm program. You're going to encounter egotistical people your whole life, especially in medicine. Eventually you'll have to get over it and not let it weigh so heavily on your mental.

 

[DOswag]

Echoing the sentiments from above. The DO vs MD debate just won't die. I remember lurking on SDN around '08-'09 when I was a premed and seeing the exact same discussions that worried me. I went to DO school '10-'14, did a DO Traditional rotating internship '14-'15, then MD psych residency '15-'19. The only time I recall an MD baulking at me going to DO school was when I was premed and worked in an ER. One MD there basically said the same thing about DO schools being lesser than. The rest of the MD's I worked with said it didn't matter. Fast forward a few years and here I am almost completing my military pay back and have signed a contract with an outpatient psychiatry clinic where I'll be making significantly more than I am now with better work hours and flexibility. If I recall, most all of my classmates matched into what they wanted, MD and DO residencies. I can't speak for all of them but the fact that I went DO school literally has not been brought up since that time I was a premed as far as throughout my career and in rotations or interviews.

 

[Goro]

I’m an accepted incoming DO student to a well-known and established school in Philly. The practice where I just started work has both DO ( some physicians who have graduated from the school I will attend) and MD physicians who all serve as faculty for residents associated with a residency program at my DO school.
One of the doctors ( an MD) who knows my resume/ stats when he hired me seems to discourage me from going to this school because apparently “with my stats I can do better” and DO students are “second grade” and have to scramble to find their rotations+ some stuff about how the residencies have merged.

Whatever specialty this doctor is in, DOs will be making the same salary as attendings, so they (and you) can laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

It's pretty disconcerting for those of us who WANT to be a DO and/or have some specific DO schools high on their list, but feel like they need to go MD for career reasons.

Maybe I'll just also embroider my GPA + MCAT on my coat. Would be pretty funny tbh.

 

[Faha]

Locally, in a nearby small city there is a primary care physician who graduated from the same DO school in Philadelphia. He has the busiest and most popular primary care practice. There is a one year waiting list for new patients. This DO physician also decides to which specialists he refers his patients to. So the DO physician decides how many referrals the Harvard, Yale, NYU, Stanford, etc. graduates receive.

 

[MDMechEngr]

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The MD / DO debate has gone on for about 100yrs. The Philly School has a great regional reputation . Many of their grads stay in the area and train at UPenn, Jefferson,( Kimmel), and Temple. Also in NYC and NJ. To be fair to your MD friend, he is correct in the fact that the number of residency slots is not rising as fast as new med school grads. This makes for more competition for the existing residency slots. Its not the end of the world, just becoming more competetive. Therefore, work with your school advisor, do your very best during the 2yrs of pre clinical, prepare for Boards like you did for the MCAT,and find a mentor for some research experience. Obviously, watch the Residency Match Game, as it is changing rapidly. You want to make yourself as competitive an applicant as possible. Monitor Charting Outcomes for the NRMP to see how competitive your specialty is and how DOs did matching in that specialty. Congrats on your admission! Good luck and best wishes!

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Ahhh another one of this threads……..

 

[Just D.O. it]

With DOs matching this year at DUKE for ortho and Stanford for anesthesia, there is no merit to anything he is saying.

While I agree with the broad sentiment that it is OP's life and decision and they should not be intimidated into changing it, this specific remark is off the rails nuts imo. A cherry picked anecdote means nothing. DO students are absolutely seen as "second grade" by residencies in many competitive specialties. It is reflected in the match statistics EVERY SINGLE YEAR. One random DO matching into a prestigious program does not serve to debunk any of the broader trends that this MD is mentioning. The fact 100% remains that matching a competitive specialty is easier as an MD.

I am not a proponent of sacrificing a DO acceptance in hand for the risky endeavor of another cycle with no guarantees. But it seems like every time this question is asked people like yourself pop up to spread this nonsensical sentiment that DO is exactly the same as MD in terms of how residency directors perceive them. Which is patently false. Feel free to browse threads with verified matched DOs and DO school faculty saying exactly what I am saying if you're not convinced.

edit: Ofc if he means "second grade" in the practicing world then he is wrong and out of touch, but it doesn't read to me like that's what he is trying to say in context.

 

[Just D.O. it]

I never asked for your opinion,

That's how public forums work. If you get offended by people responding with a differing sentiment, don't post on them .

While it is very true that a DO may be considered a second choice, year in and year out were starting to see DOs match into more competitive specialties and prestigious places.

So if you admit this,

there is no merit to anything he is saying

then... there some merit to what he is saying. There are some concerns with being a DO student compared to an MD student. Again that doesn't mean his level of judgement of OPs school is appropriate. Just clarifying that your emphasis on a select few DO success stories are not in line with the statistics of the match which is what this MD is talking about.

 

[Goro]

Calm down, both of you.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

While I agree with the broad sentiment that it is OP's life and decision and they should not be intimidated into changing it, this specific remark is off the rails nuts imo. A cherry picked anecdote means nothing. DO students are absolutely seen as "second grade" by residencies in many competitive specialties. It is reflected in the match statistics EVERY SINGLE YEAR. One random DO matching into a prestigious program does not serve to debunk any of the broader trends that this MD is mentioning. The fact 100% remains that matching a competitive specialty is easier as an MD.

I am not a proponent of sacrificing a DO acceptance in hand for the risky endeavor of another cycle with no guarantees. But it seems like every time this question is asked people like yourself pop up to spread this nonsensical sentiment that DO is exactly the same as MD in terms of how residency directors perceive them. Which is patently false. Feel free to browse threads with verified matched DOs and DO school faculty saying exactly what I am saying if you're not convinced.

edit: Ofc if he means "second grade" in the practicing world then he is wrong and out of touch, but it doesn't read to me like that's what he is trying to say in context.

I understand your sentiment but it is a bit of a hyperbole to say that it is cherry picking a single anecdote… since the merger many more opportunities have opened up for DO’s… I see more and more DO’s matching to traditional MD places than before.. obviously it’s not 100% the same as USMD BUT i now view DO schools, especially the older more established ones such as TCOM and OSUCOM, as on par with lower tier USMD schools tbh and their match lists prove that. Look at OSUCOM or TCOM’s match it’s not very far off than say a Mercer or CMU or Nova MD or cal northstate etc..

Regarding the Hasan Minhaj thing it’s clearly a joke.. wait till he learns that the difference between Caribbean MD and USDO is a difference of 10 points on the MCAT..

 

[PandaBaer]

PCOM is a great school and you'll be able to get wherever you want from there.
DOs don't have a cushion of prestige to fall back on, which means you will need to keep working hard and grow thicker skin.
The truth is there is significant overlap in ability and drive between all medical students, MD, DO, even IMG.
It is also true one's starting point is not the same as their destination, so many things can happen along the way to change one's trajectory that it is almost impossible to predict on an individual level what will happen.
A bright star may burn out and a piece of coal may ignite a blaze.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Locally, in a nearby small city there is a primary care physician who graduated from the same DO school in Philadelphia. He has the busiest and most popular primary care practice. There is a one year waiting list for new patients. This DO physician also decides to which specialists he refers his patients to. So the DO physician decides how many referrals the Harvard, Yale, NYU, Stanford, etc. graduates receive.

This is my experience as a DO surgeon. I’m one of the few DO surgeons in the area with tons of DO pcps. It’s like a little brotherhood and they all refer to me. In my case, being a DO has helped my practice.

 

[DOswag]

While I agree with the broad sentiment that it is OP's life and decision and they should not be intimidated into changing it, this specific remark is off the rails nuts imo. A cherry picked anecdote means nothing. DO students are absolutely seen as "second grade" by residencies in many competitive specialties. It is reflected in the match statistics EVERY SINGLE YEAR. One random DO matching into a prestigious program does not serve to debunk any of the broader trends that this MD is mentioning. The fact 100% remains that matching a competitive specialty is easier as an MD.

I am not a proponent of sacrificing a DO acceptance in hand for the risky endeavor of another cycle with no guarantees. But it seems like every time this question is asked people like yourself pop up to spread this nonsensical sentiment that DO is exactly the same as MD in terms of how residency directors perceive them. Which is patently false. Feel free to browse threads with verified matched DOs and DO school faculty saying exactly what I am saying if you're not convinced.

edit: Ofc if he means "second grade" in the practicing world then he is wrong and out of touch, but it doesn't read to me like that's what he is trying to say in context.

I am curious if someone in here has actually looked at, not just who matched a program as far as DO vs MD, but how many DO's and MD's applied, how were they ranked? How did the individual rank the program? what were the scores of those who applied? Did those individuals do a rotation there? What other factors could come into play for an application? I just have a hard time believing that you can look at the match statistics and assume that, if there's not an exact representation of DO's vs MD's in total #'s or % of each as compared to total # of each, that it automatically means DO's are seen as "2nd grade" by residency programs. And if that is the case, why is there no bearing on that once residency is over and we see a difference in practice/pay post-residency? I know the latter of these questions is not the case. I could be wrong though and maybe I went to one of the supposedly few or less MD programs that was/is very DO friendly/DO accepting/DO-degree-blind because I was about as middle of the road average as you could be in board scores, grades, class ranking etc.

 

[Just D.O. it]

I am curious if someone in here has actually looked at, not just who matched a program as far as DO vs MD, but how many DO's and MD's applied, how were they ranked? How did the individual rank the program? what were the scores of those who applied? Did those individuals do a rotation there? What other factors could come into play for an application? I just have a hard time believing that you can look at the match statistics and assume that, if there's not an exact representation of DO's vs MD's in total #'s or % of each as compared to total # of each, that it automatically means DO's are seen as "2nd grade" by residency programs.

1. There are a lot factors listed here and I assume, since you're a resident yourself, you understand that many of them are not available to the public. That being said if we take the big ones like STEP score and research experiences and hold those constant, then it becomes clear that in most competitive specialties DO X= MD. Like you are saying, sure you could come up with some sort of elite coping strategy if you started with the premise that DO does equal MD in the match and then try to assert that the unknown minor components of the residency application just happens to line up so well with the MD/DO split that it merely creates an illusion of a "DO stigma". I for one do not subscribe to such a coping strategy but like I said since I don't have access to all components of all applications I can only say that the assertion is ridiculous and improbable as opposed to actually proving that not including your lifting hobby on ERAS and not your DO degree is the real reason why some don't match.

2. The program director survey put out by NRMP. This builds on my first point about why people who deny the existence of a degree based bias are probably either in denial or really need to stay out of these discussions because they can't even be bothered to look at the relevant information we have available. If we go through this document we find that it has a graph from each specialty showing what "Percentage of Programs that Typically Interview and Rank Each Applicant Type", and uh, maybe it would surprise you but it turns out the percentages for DO are not the same as MD.

3. This one is anecdotal but we actually have posts from some surgical subspecialty residents that convey their PDs flat out do not interview/rank DOs. SO being a DO is literally dead on arrival at least for some programs. You can view their approach as outdated or unfair but it doesn't change for now that they are part of what determines if you get your specialty of choice.

And if that is the case, why is there no bearing on that once residency is over and we see a difference in practice/pay post-residency?

If you can't understand how structurally different an academic schooling/training pipeline is different from the job market and is even further removed from the compensation structure of most physicians then, I'm not sure you have a sufficient understanding of the issue to be offering opinions on the matter, with all due respect.

Also just to mention MD/DO only become "equal" if we control for the other variables. If we don't, then neither practice or pay are equivalent because the average DO is much more likely to be a primary care physician (FWIW increasing primary care physicians is an explicitly stated goal of the AOA) and as a result the average DO probably does make less than the average MD in the most literal sense.

I could be wrong though and maybe I went to one of the supposedly few or less MD programs that was/is very DO friendly/DO accepting/DO-degree-blind because I was about as middle of the road average as you could be in board scores, grades, class ranking etc.

Wow, so again you couldn't be bothered to actually understand what was being discussed before bringing your own "well actually" statement into the fray. DOs match rates are in the high 9X%s. It is a great and reliable route to become a doctor. Average DOs manage to match fine in plenty of places. If you'd actually go ahead and scroll up to carefully read the message to which you replied you'd find I specifically mention the difficulty in matching with regards to COMPETITIVE specialties. Unless you're an ophthalmologist, otolaryngologist, neurosurgeon, or something else similarly competitive, you might as well have posted "water is wet" and have wasted less time and energy. Everyone knows and acknowledges being a DO is not a big deal or hindrance for matching the regular specialties most doctors end up in.

So just in summary, if you're not in a hyper competitive specialty field, I recommend you work on your reading comprehension. If you are, I will happily eat my words and you can become a hero on this forum by sharing the surgical subspecialty programs that are

very DO friendly/DO accepting/DO-degree-blind

and are willing to accept students who are

about as middle of the road average as you could be in board scores, grades, class ranking etc.

 

[deleted1159422]

As someone matriculating into a brand new public DO school and is interested in anesthesiology, this thread was fun to read. Lol. *cries*

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Carribbean DO school

🤡 🩺

 

[DOswag]

1. There are a lot factors listed here and I assume, since you're a resident yourself, you understand that many of them are not available to the public. That being said if we take the big ones like STEP score and research experiences and hold those constant, then it becomes clear that in most competitive specialties DO X= MD. Like you are saying, sure you could come up with some sort of elite coping strategy if you started with the premise that DO does equal MD in the match and then try to assert that the unknown minor components of the residency application just happens to line up so well with the MD/DO split that it merely creates an illusion of a "DO stigma". I for one do not subscribe to such a coping strategy but like I said since I don't have access to all components of all applications I can only say that the assertion is ridiculous and improbable as opposed to actually proving that not including your lifting hobby on ERAS and not your DO degree is the real reason why some don't match.

2. The program director survey put out by NRMP. This builds on my first point about why people who deny the existence of a degree based bias are probably either in denial or really need to stay out of these discussions because they can't even be bothered to look at the relevant information we have available. If we go through this document we find that it has a graph from each specialty showing what "Percentage of Programs that Typically Interview and Rank Each Applicant Type", and uh, maybe it would surprise you but it turns out the percentages for DO are not the same as MD.

3. This one is anecdotal but we actually have posts from some surgical subspecialty residents that convey their PDs flat out do not interview/rank DOs. SO being a DO is literally dead on arrival at least for some programs. You can view their approach as outdated or unfair but it doesn't change for now that they are part of what determines if you get your specialty of choice.


If you can't understand how structurally different an academic schooling/training pipeline is different from the job market and is even further removed from the compensation structure of most physicians then, I'm not sure you have a sufficient understanding of the issue to be offering opinions on the matter, with all due respect.

Also just to mention MD/DO only become "equal" if we control for the other variables. If we don't, then neither practice or pay are equivalent because the average DO is much more likely to be a primary care physician (FWIW increasing primary care physicians is an explicitly stated goal of the AOA) and as a result the average DO probably does make less than the average MD in the most literal sense.


Wow, so again you couldn't be bothered to actually understand what was being discussed before bringing your own "well actually" statement into the fray. DOs match rates are in the high 9X%s. It is a great and reliable route to become a doctor. Average DOs manage to match fine in plenty of places. If you'd actually go ahead and scroll up to carefully read the message to which you replied you'd find I specifically mention the difficulty in matching with regards to COMPETITIVE specialties. Unless you're an ophthalmologist, otolaryngologist, neurosurgeon, or something else similarly competitive, you might as well have posted "water is wet" and have wasted less time and energy. Everyone knows and acknowledges being a DO is not a big deal or hindrance for matching the regular specialties most doctors end up in.

So just in summary, if you're not in a hyper competitive specialty field, I recommend you work on your reading comprehension. If you are, I will happily eat my words and you can become a hero on this forum by sharing the surgical subspecialty programs that are



and are willing to accept students who are

Calm down keyboard warrior. I know many of those things aren’t exactly public released info. That wasn’t necessarily directed at you but wondering if someone has ever been able to get access to that info and conduct an actual study as opposed to just looking at match statistics and anecdotes. My reading comprehension is fine. I’m not a resident. I fully understand how the training structure and job market works. I acknowledged the difficulty in matching competitive programs. Water is wet.

That's how public forums work. If you get offended by people responding with a differing sentiment, don't post on them .

Your defensive response and criticism of someone for posting a different opinion could be taken as someone who got offended.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I had the same thing happen to me with a handful of MDs I worked with as a premed. I heard MUCH more offensive comments tbh.

I matched better than any of them did. Anyone telling you to give up your DO acceptance likely applied to med school when it was much more straightforward.

 

[Just D.O. it]

Your defensive response and criticism of someone for posting a different opinion could be taken as someone who got offended.

I'm not offended. I'm just what people call "blunt". Also I'm not against arguing on these forums. It was more so the specific use of the phrase "I never asked for your opinion," being used in a discussion on a public forum that I thought was funny.

My reading comprehension is fine.

As I pointed out, you didn't actually respond to what I said anyway. You completely skipped over the word competitive and instead had a random digression about how DO friendly the program you went to was, but it seems you understood what I meant the second time around, so I'm glad we ended up on the same page.

 

[gyngyn]

This would be a good time for everyone to simmer down.
This is an age-old question that always seems to result in a closed thread.
Let's see if we can break that mold.

 

[Bluesandstuff]

DO schools are worse on average because they mostly aren’t at academic centers. DO schools are less prestigious and have a harder time keeping faculty that care about research. BUT if you get into your specialty of choice you’ll end up being as good of a doctor because let’s be honest medical school is mostly BS and pretending to see things you don’t actually understand. Residency is the doctor boot camp that makes doctors special.

Some dicks will always care about anything related to status. Kinda like people that brag about how good their high school was, how many people they’ve banged, how smart their children are, how tall their lifted truck is or how big their alimony check is.

 

[DO2015CA]

DO schools are worse on average because they mostly aren’t at academic centers. DO schools are less prestigious and have a harder time keeping faculty that care about research. BUT if you get into your specialty of choice you’ll end up being as good of a doctor because let’s be honest medical school is mostly BS and pretending to see things you don’t actually understand. Residency is the doctor boot camp that makes doctors special.

Some dicks will always care about anything related to status. Kinda like people that brag about how good their high school was, how many people they’ve banged, how smart their children are, how tall their lifted truck is or how big their alimony check is.

Rolf to lifted truck statement as someone from BFE where this runs rampant

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Rolf to lifted truck statement as someone from BFE where this runs rampant

I'll see your truck with a lift kit and raise you a Palatka Squat