A DVM Regrets Going to Vet School

[PetPony]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

I just got my first pay check and I may think about spending it on that. Hahaha. I never really thought about those things before, but lately I've been getting very interested in it. And I need something new to read anyways. Thank you. I will also look into those programs. SDN made me understand many things I had no idea about before. It's a wonderful place to be.

 

[justavet]

I hope I am adding to this being a great place to be...I'm one of the previously mentioned VIN lurkers. 01 Auburn grad, I've had a variety of positions in practice, went back for a masters, currently in emergency.
As far as Rollins' book- if you haven't already bought it, PetPony, see if the UGA library has a copy. Not to be discouraging but developing very frugal habits now could stand you in good stead later, as veterinary school is pretty expensive compared to what you'll be making when you get out. Depending of course what you go into; and keeping in mind we're in the middle of a recession.
A quick comment to the poster who said most of the students in class wanted to go into large animal med- the equine market is not good right now, and the food animal/mixed animal/rural practice segment is also not experiencing a shortage. Check out this report for more on that: aabp.org, it's on the right hand side under "Summary Opinion of AABP's Ad Hoc Committee on Rural Veterinary Practice". AABP is the American Association of Bovine Practitioners. I've been a member for 14 years although I'm mostly a lurker there too.
OK, so I'm afraid that was more discouraging than anything else. But who knows what the situation will be like when you get there, whenever that is and wherever there is. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, just trying to make sure there aren't any more surprises than there have to be. The journey will throw you enough curve balls as it is!

 

[PetPony]

Justavet, I had done that right after I posted. Hahaha And yes, UGA does have a copy of it in the vet reading room. I didn't really understand the website, but hopefully I can check it out. if not I'll just sit there and read it. :] I had no idea they had that room. Maybe that was good, because I know I'll be spending way too much time there....

 

[justavet]

Go UGA for having such a thing! Lol we always ended up huddled around a beat up table in the bottom of the stairwell right outside the library.

 

[PetPony]

It's really nice there. A few computers, really comfy chairs around big tables and little side tables to study at alone. Skeletons standing around and the ladies working there are very nice, too. Apparently you usually can only check a book out for a day, but she said because I'm not there every day I could keep it all week. First time I got a privilege because I'm NOT in something. Hahaha 🙂 Hopefully I will be someday. :]

 

[antrl]

Maybe this person is a troll or maybe he's not. I just would really like it if someone could tell me what I could do so I don't become the real life version of this troll. I am a sophomore undergrad and have about 100 hours animal experience but only like 10 hours shadowing experience. I have been having a really hard time finding a job in the veterinary field, and so, am having a hard time gaining real experience. I was wondering if someone could give me some advice, ANY advice to catch up (because I feel like I'm REALLY far behind most of the guys and gals on here. 🙁 Sorry if I seem a bit hysterical I'm just pretty worried about this.

 

[Bisbee]

I think that shadowing is the best start (without pay of course). Then as time goes on maybe you can start helping out/volunteering with the animals. Then when you start to know your stuff and a paid position becomes available, they'll want to hire you. Another idea is one thing I did. I volunteered at an animal shelter which held spay/neuter clinics 4X/month. Although I walked dogs and did cleaning on most of my visits to the shelter, I volunteered at the spay/neuter clinics and met the vets and learned a lot. I used one of these shelter vets as an evaluator for my application. I guess the main idea is to start at the bottom and work your way up.

 

[bunnity]

Shelters and trap-neuter-release groups always need help! Shelters are how I got all my vet experience.

 

[natalieises]

This thread needs to be put down.

Humane Euth?

 

[yann]

3 vets at work told me they wouldn't go through vet school or be a vet if they could go back in time and do everything over. But they told me it's mostly because vet school was hell and from the money they make and the ungrateful clients you encounter from time to time, it doesn't balance out. Not to mention the debt.

I did ask what they would do instead, and one of them said a rock star. Another one said a nude artist, and the 3rd one said she would be one of the wives of the Abu Dabi prince.
I am not kidding. I love my doctors.

 

[breenie]

3 vets at work told me they wouldn't go through vet school or be a vet if they could go back in time and do everything over. But they told me it's mostly because vet school was hell and from the money they make and the ungrateful clients you encounter from time to time, it doesn't balance out. Not to mention the debt.

I did ask what they would do instead, and one of them said a rock star. Another one said a nude artist, and the 3rd one said she would be one of the wives of the Abu Dabi prince.
I am not kidding. I love my doctors.

Well if those are your options... why would you be a vet? I think my desire to be a trophy wife is well established on this forum!

 

[justavet]

Dammit, I could've been a trophy wife?!?
Seriously, vet school was hell I didn't think it was too bad, actually.
clients you encounter from time to time I have found practice is also what you make of it; focus on the the good clients; focus on bad ones just long enough to figure out if there's something you could do differently in a similar situation, and move on.
the money they make ...the debt This part really worries me for you all. Yeah, it was hard enough for me but what you all are facing financially is orders of magnitude harder.
A bunch of us are trying to figure out what we can do about it, individually and collectively. If you all have any suggestions put them up and I'll do whatever I can to move them forward. I'm not shy about poking people with a stick when something needs done lol.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think there needs to be a federal cap on tuition, but that's just me. Usually, I'm a small-government type of person, but drastic times call for drastic measures.

 

[breenie]

Dammit, I could've been a trophy wife?!?

I've accepted that I'm not nearly blonde or busty enough. There do seem to be certain trophy-wife qualifications. I guess I met the vet school ones more easily.

 

[Trilt]

I've accepted that I'm not nearly blonde or busty enough. There do seem to be certain trophy-wife qualifications. I guess I met the vet school ones more easily.

Surgery & hair dye = a lot less expensive than vet school.

 

[justavet]

I think there needs to be a federal cap on tuition, but that's just me. Usually, I'm a small-government type of person, but drastic times call for drastic measures.

So we could suggest it was temporary. Capped at what level?

 

[dyachei]

focus on the the good clients

Like the owner I had today that had a 23 year old cat with kidney disease. And she still wanted to do everything she could to have him live the longest, healthiest life she could😍😍

 

[Minnerbelle]

So we could suggest it was temporary. Capped at what level?

Especially for professional programs, I think it might be appropriate for it to be a certain percentage of average starting income (excluding internship/residency... and would inherently exclude specialists). I mean, yes there would be regional differences and type of practice and such to make it unfair but it would be a starting point. Plus, higher cost of living tends to cancel out lower regional salary, no?

It would be hard for schools to control tuition based on external factors esp if it fluctuates and their costs remain the same... so I dunno who would be responsible for the difference... WTF did you have any ideas about that when it comes to any kind of tuition capping? Would the schools be responsible for keeping their costs low ? Or would the gov't subsidize? Or would the schools be allowed to increase enrollment to make up for that difference?

 

[cowgirla]

Especially for professional programs, I think it might be appropriate for it to be a certain percentage of average starting income (excluding internship/residency... and would inherently exclude specialists). I mean, yes there would be regional differences and type of practice and such to make it unfair but it would be a starting point. Plus, higher cost of living tends to cancel out lower regional salary, no?

It would be hard for schools to control tuition based on external factors esp if it fluctuates and their costs remain the same... so I dunno who would be responsible for the difference... WTF did you have any ideas about that when it comes to any kind of tuition capping? Would the schools be responsible for keeping their costs low ? Or would the gov't subsidize? Or would the schools be allowed to increase enrollment to make up for that difference?

If we can't even get the government to subsidize our loans, somehow I doubt they'll get to the point of subsidizing our tuition 🙁
Would certainly love to hear ideas about a tuition cap though it does sound too good be true

 

[Minnerbelle]

If we can't even get the government to subsidize our loans, somehow I doubt they'll get to the point of subsidizing our tuition 🙁
Would certainly love to hear ideas about a tuition cap though it does sound too good be true

I agree. And it's sad. But then again, I do agree that it is a luxury to be able to go through so much schooling to get to have our "dream job," so in the face of crushing gov't debt, I'm not sure the gov't should be giving us money. I mean, let's face it, we entered the profession because we waaaaaaaant toooooo and can't think of anything else we'd rather be doing. I don't think many of us are noble people sacrificing ourselves to going into vet med because the world needs us to become vets. I mean yes, vets are needed in society, but most of those needs have been met, and a majority of us aren't going in with the purpose of filling that need. In the end, for a majority of us, the profession and society at large would not have suffered much, if at all, had we not chosen to enter. For those that are needed, I'm not sure what more subsidies we can expect (like, the public service forgiveness program is pretty damn generous, as is the army).

Vet school tuition is getting ridiculously high compared to starting income... but I really dunno where to point my fingers except at myself. It's still frustrating and I rant about it all the time, but I'm not sure I personally deserve help of any kind. I have major issues with increasing the number of incoming students, and any other things that help exacerbate the problem, but aside from that, is there anything that actually should happen on the tuition end of things? I would hope that vet schools are really looking hard at their costs and limiting them to bare minimums to keep the level of instruction acceptable... but aside from that, I'm not sure tuition can be helped all that much unless the structure of vet school changes dramatically.

I just hope that after all is said and done, I'm happy overall with the choice I made to matriculate. Obviously I still think I would be, and it's sad that it's seeming more and more like a gamble, but what more can be done?

 

[Bisbee]

It seems that one of the problems with tuition is that vet schools are part of large universities and have to keep tuition in line with what those universities are charging in other departments. For in-state students at state schools, university-wide, it's lower than for people coming from out of state. The trouble with vet schools, though, is that many of them enroll very large numbers of out-of-state students who are charged more than in-state students. For undergrads at the same state schools (most vet schools are under state university status, though not all), most undergrads are residents of that state. So, high tuition isn't as much of an issue fir undergrads at state schools. However, some of us attended private institutions as undergrads where the tuition is also very high (and certainly our low starting salaries do not reflect how much we spent on tuition). None of us want to pay so much for either undergrad or vet school. The entire financial aid process has gotten out of hand. Virtually anyone can go to college whether they can afford it or not. For undergrad, if you cannot afford it and want to go to school, grants and scholarships are there. Those of us who are deemed able to afford the tuition scrape along without any help and give up other things (and then, sure, there are zillionaires for whom tuition is but a drop in the bucket). So we are paying through the roof while others are paying nothing. In essence, some of the money we pay goes toward the tuition of someone else. It's like socialism. I think this analysis applies more for undergrad than for vet school. But like I said, the vet schools within the larger universities set tuition according to the university guidelines. How long can this go on? Something has got to give.

 

[nyanko]

Your rant makes absolutely no sense. I am an in-state resident at a public veterinary school that admits very, very few out-of-state residents and allows them to gain in-state residency after one year. Furthermore our tuition has nothing to do with that of the rest of the university - undergraduate tuition here is a lot less.

If you attended a private institution rather than a state institution for undergrad and accumulated more in loans as a result, that sucks for you. But then, wouldn't you fall under the category of the people you're talking about who can't actually afford it? If you resent having had to "scrape by" so much, why didn't you go to a cheaper state university?

I don't think it is fair to say that only people who can afford it out of pocket should be able to access higher education. That would just further increase the divide between classes in this country. Before you say anything - I actually agree with you that too many people attend post-secondary school in the US. But I strongly disagree that it should be stratified based on whether the person's family can afford it or not.

 

[Dsmoody23]

The entire financial aid process has gotten out of hand. Virtually anyone can go to college whether they can afford it or not. For undergrad, if you cannot afford it and want to go to school, grants and scholarships are there. Those of us who are deemed able to afford the tuition scrape along without any help and give up other things (and then, sure, there are zillionaires for whom tuition is but a drop in the bucket). So we are paying through the roof while others are paying nothing. In essence, some of the money we pay goes toward the tuition of someone else. It's like socialism.

I'm pretty sure the entire point of financial aid is to ensure that virtually anyone can go to school, especially if they can't afford it. Potential and future contribution to society isn't best predicted by how much money your parents make.

Your impression that financial aid is some kind of handout is ridiculous. The vast majority of financial aid is in the form of loans that are paid back at a higher amount than they were borrowed at.

Moreso, I think it would be a fun experiment for you to see if you can coast through the next year of your studies using only grant and scholarship money. Where I live, in Pennsylvania, a full Pell grant, PHEAA grant and educational assistance grants will total you out around 5500 dollars. Starting in-state tuition for the cheapest state school is 7900, before books and fees. Then you have to find a way to live and eat while taking 12+ credits a semester and staying above a 3.0.

If it's so easy, you do it.

Financial aid grants and loans are the single, solitary way that lower income citizens get a shot at improving their financial situation through education.

Calling it 'socialism' indicates that you don't understand what socialism is, and that you have a marginal (if that) understanding of the financial aid system .

 

[fromthebox]

I agree with many of the points raised here, and very much that too many people are attending four-year institutions when a good technical training or focused program might serve them better. (Too bad these are sorely lacking in the US and can be viewed negatively by employers who grew up in an environment when a four-year degree was an accomplishment in itself. (not that some are not, but they are increasingly becoming stepping stones to a MS or PhD/JD etc))
But I also believe the state has over bought into the idea that a college education is the new American dream. The subsidies that go into funding degrees for those who can't afford it are much better served improving the quality of High School education so that you wouldn't need a four-year program to teach you things you could have learned in high school such as the functions of writing and language, basic sciences and math tools, etc. I find it crazy to think that, after receiving 12 years of state funded educations, some will go on to four more years of funded learning and have to re-learn a lot of what they have already been taught.
OK, enough rant.
On second thought, just a little more.
I payed out of state tuition in Cali for my first two years, after which I had a CA driver's license, my own residence and a paying job by which I contributed as a taxpayer to the state. They granted me in-state for meeting these requirements. Then two years later, they granted those same in-state fee reductions to illegal immigrants living in CA. I'm all for helping out disadvantaged state residents (who meet the same qualifications I had to) but to extend benefits like those to illegal immigrants to the state because they deserve a chance at the "American Dream" but not to a legal immigrant from another US state? REALLY it's like they have money to give away, oh right they do, the $28,000 a year of extra tuition I paid as an OOS.

 

[fromthebox]

I think it would be a fun experiment for you to see if you can coast through the next year of your studies using only grant and scholarship money.

Try doing it while holding a job but not qualifying for aid because your father owns a farm which is valued above the level for aid, and you chose a school out of state for which he refuses to pay. You learn how quickly the money runs out when you have to work to replenish it rather than have it appear at the beginning of the next quarter.

Not that I don't think aid is good, I just think that there are other predictors, as you said of success than your parent's financial situation, be it good or bad.

 

[LetItSnow]

Your rant makes absolutely no sense. I am an in-state resident at a public veterinary school that admits very, very few out-of-state residents and allows them to gain in-state residency after one year. Furthermore our tuition has nothing to do with that of the rest of the university - undergraduate tuition here is a lot less.

I didn't quite understand Brisbee either, but unfortunately, at my school my tuition has a lot to do with undergrad tuitions: Because undergrad tuition rate increases are capped, the university raised professional tuitions by *far more* than undergrad to make up their shortfall. (Mine went up by more than twice what undergrad increases were, as a percentage of respective tuitions, which of course means that in pure dollars mine went up by much more than twice the UG increase.)

That doesn't really seem to fair to me. Those of us who went through undergrad took on a larger percentage of our educational cost than the current crop of undergrads and we're now being asked to pay more for our education so the people behind us get off easier. If the university has a shortfall and tuition has to go up, ok, but the burden ought to be shared equally.

 

[PetPony]

In Germany, higher education is pretty cheap compared to here, but the number of people studying at universities is not even close to the number of people here in the US. You have to pretty much have a 4.0 to get into a college and even then it's not sure that one will accept you. At least in the region where I grew up.

There, you don't go to universities to learn most jobs. You get an internship at a job that interests you and they will teach you how to do what you need to do. They often times prefer people that had internships to people that went to an university because it's nice to know the theory of how to do things, but it's better to know how to actually do it and already have hands-on experience.

You go to a university for medical professions and such, but everything else you learn at companies. It's much cheaper, you know what to do in your area of 'expertise' and after you finish your internship, many times you get an offer from that company. There's your job. No unnecessary time spent studying when you could be learning an actual job.

Ok.. this sounds confusing to me now, but I'm not sure how to explain it. Pretty much, people will laugh at you for trying to study creative writing and stuff like that. 😉

 

[fromthebox]

In Germany, higher education is pretty cheap compared to here, but the number of people studying at universities is not even close to the number of people here in the US. You have to pretty much have a 4.0 to get into a college and even then it's not sure that one will accept you. At least in the region where I grew up.

There, you don't go to universities to learn most jobs. You get an internship at a job that interests you and they will teach you how to do what you need to do. They often times prefer people that had internships to people that went to an university because it's nice to know the theory of how to do things, but it's better to know how to actually do it and already have hands-on experience.

You go to a university for medical professions and such, but everything else you learn at companies. It's much cheaper, you know what to do in your area of 'expertise' and after you finish your internship, many times you get an offer from that company. There's your job. No unnecessary time spent studying when you could be learning an actual job.

Ok.. this sounds confusing to me now, but I'm not sure how to explain it. Pretty much, people will laugh at you for trying to study creative writing and stuff like that. 😉

This, definitely. Why get a degree in something you are not going to use when you could get the experience doing what you want to do? Too bad there are so many hurdles to getting such a system set up in the US, from the infrastructure involved to the cries that would arise surrounding the "fairness"

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think Bisbee has a point buried (deep) in that rant - sorry Nyanko.

I do think there is some serious unfairness in financial aid.. especially at the schools that give outright grant aid. If you are stinking rich it hardly matters, but if you come from a more typical family that gets little or no aid you are really screwed. The financial aid formula does some crazy things. Like expecting someone to use their house to fund tuition. Really, should a family be forced to mortgage their house for 4 years, and end up with nothing after their kids graduation?

I just don't get the idea of giving away education to some, so there is no additional burden placed on those families, while placing a huge burden on others. I was so jealous of a friend of mine in undergrad who got grants because his family was dirt poor from an area with a low cost of living while I graduated with loans because my family had a higher income but lived in a much higher cost of living part of the country and had the nerve to own a house.

Give away education to everyone if it is a public good or live with a capitalist system where only those who can afford it get the education...... or burden everyone equally with loans like in grad school ...

I guess this rant only applies to the few schools left that give grant aid. Looking for those... here you go:
http://www.ehow.com/info_8048475_colleges-give-grants.html

As for merit based scholarships ... that is an entirely different story... Got no problem with that. In fact, to me that is the best way to ensure that the people who SHOULD go to university, do!

 

[Dsmoody23]

Try doing it while holding a job but not qualifying for aid because your father owns a farm which is valued above the level for aid, and you chose a school out of state for which he refuses to pay. You learn how quickly the money runs out when you have to work to replenish it rather than have it appear at the beginning of the next quarter.

Not that I don't think aid is good, I just think that there are other predictors, as you said of success than your parent's financial situation, be it good or bad.

You're not going to elicit much sympathy from me with a story about how tough it is that your parents were only willing to pay for in-state tuition.

I think a lot of people would beg to be in that position.

And, again, money does not just 'appear' to students with financial aid like a wonderful socialistic magic trick. It pays directly to tuition, and a bill 'appears' in your mailbox for the difference. Then you drop 700 bucks on books. Then you go to work for about 50 hours a week, before or after your 12 credits a week, just so you can pay your rent and afford your gas and bargain pasta.

This thread watches too much f-ing Glenn Beck.

 

[PetPony]

I'm lucky that my mom's company will pay for 2 years of my undergrad, so I can have the same education as if I stayed in Germany and finished high school there. I wish my mom could offer to pay for my other two years. She'd never refuse to help me if I wanted to go OOS instead of IS, but I just know that she can't. IS is already too much for her and she knows I won't be asking her for money. If it was your choice to go OOS instead of having your parents pay for IS, you shouldn't complain. You had the chance.

 

[nyanko]

Try doing it while holding a job but not qualifying for aid because your father owns a farm which is valued above the level for aid, and you chose a school out of state for which he refuses to pay. You learn how quickly the money runs out when you have to work to replenish it rather than have it appear at the beginning of the next quarter.

I mean I don't understand what you are trying to say here but it sounds like you're put out by the fact that your father made too much for you to get the same aid as a person whose parents don't make as much, and then wouldn't pay for your tuition out of state. It sucks that things work like that sometimes. However, if he would and could have paid for you to go to a different undergrad but you chose to go to one he wouldn't pay for, that doesn't seem like a circumstance that deserves federal aid.

(and for the record, I don't think that the way financial aid is distributed is flawless by any means - speaking as someone with a much larger EFC than I can actually afford because I made a good amount of money for a graduate stipend prior to vet school. but I can absolutely not morally justify to myself saying that those with lower incomes don't deserve the aid for that reason.)

 

[fromthebox]

I mean I don't understand what you are trying to say here but it sounds like you're put out by the fact that your father made too much for you to get the same aid as a person whose parents don't make as much, and then wouldn't pay for your tuition out of state. It sucks that things work like that sometimes. However, if he would and could have paid for you to go to a different undergrad but you chose to go to one he wouldn't pay for, that doesn't seem like a circumstance that deserves federal aid.

The point I'm making is that there are other circumstances that suck and make you go paycheck to paycheck or grant to grant, and it's not glamorous but it is part of your choice. My brother went to my dad's alma mater and had his way paid and his apartment etc. I chose to go to my UG out of state and would do it again. Do I wish I'd qualified for aid? yes. Do I like that the fact that a man who is not involved in my life at all is the reason I don't get aid? no, and I am bitter about it. It sounds like Dsmoody is bitter as well, is it more acceptable for her/him to be bitter?

 

[nyanko]

What's "acceptable" is not for me to determine.

But I don't know what to say to you if you feel like your choice between "go to school out of state without daddy paying for it" and "go to school in state and have it fully funded" is the same as a person whose choice is between "go to school anywhere without daddy paying for it" and "don't go to school at all." The latter are who financial aid should really be helping first, if they have the aptitude and desire to go.

And I'm well aware that there are people whose parents have the money to pay for it but won't pay for them to go anywhere. That's where I feel like there are flaws in the financial aid determination algorithm - but your situation doesn't really fit into that scenario so I don't see it as a flaw. That's my point.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It sounds like Dsmoody is bitter as well, is it more acceptable for her/him to be bitter?

I don't think he's bitter so much as he's just annoyed at how financial aid was portrayed as a handout (and how you were complaining about only being funded for a school you did not want to go to). You on the other hand sound bitter that your daddy did not give you what you wanted.

 

[Trilt]

While I definitely agree that financial aid needs to exist, I think the current system pretty much sucks. I'm one of those students whose parents probably could, but will not, foot the bill - they both took out loans to pay for the university work they attended, and expect me to do the same. However, due to my EFC, I barely get half of my cost of attendance yearly... I've thus far managed to pay for everything with minimal loans by working a job that pays for my housing, two other part-time jobs, and the support of several outside scholarships. This is a ridiculous situation - especially when I see so many friends of mine with lower incomes getting full rides and scholarships, and having significant amounts of extra money off of it. Not to mention the multitude of students from my high school who did a year of classwork from Devry before failing out, getting thousands of dollars of grants. Urgh middle class woes.

I also highly disagree that merit-based aid is a fair system... I was a finalist for a pretty prestigious, only merit-based scholarship as a freshman, and a VAST majority of the students who ended up being awarded it were from wealthy families. The opportunities available for students from wealthier families for public speaking, community work, sports, etc. make them appear better candidates for merit-based aid, too.

It is frustrating. I don't think there is a perfect way to do financial aid, but it really does suck to be in a situation where you're not poor enough to get need-based aid, not amazing enough to get merit-based aid, and just have to do it on your own. There has to be a better system.

 

[justavet]

TDo I wish I'd qualified for aid? yes. Do I like that the fact that a man who is not involved in my life at all is the reason I don't get aid? no, and I am bitter about it.

Fromthebox, so did your dad offer to pay for a certain school for you, or offered to pay for your brother but nothing for you...?
It sounds like your dad would pay for school for your brother (as long as he went to the same school your dad went) but wasn't willing to pay for anything for you (or was he willing to make you the same deal as your brother?)- yet you were denied aid because his assets were considered in determining your EFC?

 

[Dsmoody23]

The point I'm making is that there are other circumstances that suck and make you go paycheck to paycheck or grant to grant, and it's not glamorous but it is part of your choice. My brother went to my dad's alma mater and had his way paid and his apartment etc. I chose to go to my UG out of state and would do it again. Do I wish I'd qualified for aid? yes. Do I like that the fact that a man who is not involved in my life at all is the reason I don't get aid? no, and I am bitter about it. It sounds like Dsmoody is bitter as well, is it more acceptable for her/him to be bitter?

Bitter?

I'm not bitter, I'm pissed that you and 'Bisbee' are blatantly ignorant of a program you claim to be opposed to.

And you guys mischaracterize the program you seem to know very little about as some kind of free-for-all, lotto ticket for the poor.

Nobody takes a Pell grant, quits their job and goes to Yale. They struggle through 2 years of community college with a full time job and then maybe, if they're lucky, take a loan out to finish their degree at the cheapest in-state school they can find.

If you're lucky enough that you don't have to go that route, more power to you. I'm not bitter that you drew better cards than I did. I'm going to school so my kids will be in the same boat you are.

But lose the sense of entitlement. Poor families have an identical right to education as you do.

 

[justavet]

Minnerbelle, wow. Great points about teh mechanics of capping tuition and especially about the costs of going to vet school and who should bear them. I'm going to PM you the name of another student from CSU who's thinking about this sort of thing- you two should talk (you're in different classes but you may already know each other!)
Cowgirla, capping tuition doesn't directly cost the gov't anything to pass a rule requiring, where subsidizing loans does show in the federal budget. So maybe the likelihood of getting a cap passed isn't affected by the same factors that resulted in the lack of willingness to subsidize interest.
Bisbee, good point about out of state vs instate. I have put together data for each school showing number of in vs out of state students, I can get a list posted maybe later tonight. I'lle ven try to make a graph of that vs tuition and let's see what the relationship is- maybe nothing?
I am working on making a chart showing for each school, how many students from that state attend the instate school, how many go out of state (and where) and how many come into that state (and from where).

 

[justavet]

I'm pretty sure the entire point of financial aid is to ensure that virtually anyone can go to school, especially if they can't afford it. Potential and future contribution to society isn't best predicted by how much money your parents make....Financial aid grants and loans are the single, solitary way that lower income citizens get a shot at improving their financial situation through education.

But the problem is, we are now being loaned amounts of money to acquire a degree- but we can't make enough with that degree to pay back the loan amount.

It's the exact opposite of what financial aid is supposed to do. Instead of, as you perfectly put it, being a shot at improving your financial situation through education that would otherwise be unattainable, these loan amounts guarantee we'll never escape the poverty we put ourselves into when we borrow this money.

 

[Bisbee]

Most of what I said in my earlier post applies to undergraduate studies. (And I paid out of pocket at a private university and do not have any loans...my own pocket, not my parents' pocket). I also have had my two children attend private colleges; my husband and I did not qualify for them to be eligible for any financial aid. We are in that income level where it does hurt to pay all of that tuition and to see some of our kids' friends getting a partial or free ride. The universities set tuition high enough that they are able to provide this help for students from poorer families. Granted, some of the money comes from alumni-funded scholarships and such, but a lot of it comes from those of us who pay full freight. This IS "socialized education". Additionally, our government makes loans available for those who want to go to college (and vet school, of course). And let's face it, many vet students do not pay out of pocket. Many use these government loans. The universities know that the government will allow a student to borrow up to and including full tuition plus expenses. Knowing this, universities have raised and raised the tuition over the years because the government always comes through. I never said that people with less money shouldn't be able to go to college. I said that the system is in need of a fix. Perhaps that fix should be the government capping the amount they will loan so that the universities cannot keep raising tuition. Because at some point, students will not be able to afford to attend the programs (for lack of enough money).

 

[fromthebox]

Justavet - I was offered the deal as well, forgive me for not wanting to move into a home under the control of a man who has his own view of who I should be that involved a degree he specified. I chose out of state to get away from a place I never wanted to be and avoid a life where everything came with a condition. And yes, his income kept me from aid.

It hurts to be told i'm pissy about daddy not giving me what I wanted. I think we all should do what we want as long as we are informed. I don't want to Start a war here but I really do feel jaded about aid after working my way and watching classmates use loans meant for school to pay for credit cards maxed out on shoes and the like. I know that's an extreme example and that it doesn't apply to others here but there you are.

I'm very sorry, DSMoody if I hurt you with my comments they were given under a terrible mood I've been in all day and it shouldn't have happened.

 

[Trilt]

Bitter?

I'm not bitter, I'm pissed that you and 'Bisbee' are blatantly ignorant of a program you claim to be opposed to.

And you guys mischaracterize the program you seem to know very little about as some kind of free-for-all, lotto ticket for the poor.

Nobody takes a Pell grant, quits their job and goes to Yale. They struggle through 2 years of community college with a full time job and then maybe, if they're lucky, take a loan out to finish their degree at the cheapest in-state school they can find.

If you're lucky enough that you don't have to go that route, more power to you. I'm not bitter that you drew better cards than I did. I'm going to school so my kids will be in the same boat you are.

But lose the sense of entitlement. Poor families have an identical right to education as you do.

Oh, bull**** - there are many students from low-income families who do not work full-time jobs, who do attend four-year universities all through college, and attend out of state or more-expensive schools. And I know several of them who have more miscellaneous money than I do. The world has many more grey tones than you're presenting, and you should really take that into account when you're the one complaining about somebody misrepresenting poor students.

I also don't think anyone said they don't think poor families don't have a right to education, nor even implied it.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Oh, bull**** - there are many students from low-income families who do not work full-time jobs, who do attend four-year universities all through college, and attend out of state or more-expensive schools. And I know several of them who have more miscellaneous money than I do. The world has many more grey tones than you're presenting, and you should really take that into account when you're the one complaining about somebody misrepresenting poor students.

I also don't think anyone said they don't think poor families don't have a right to education, nor even implied it.

I guess it's reasonable to ask where that money comes from?

If it's personal money, then they're obviously not low-income.

If it's grant money, I'm not sure how that lifestyle is possible on about 5 grand a year.

If it's loan money... then it's just that. A loan. Not free money.

The problem is, if it's any one of these, your post makes no sense.

And beyond that, do you honestly feel like your specific experience with the students you cite represent the state and federal aid program as a whole? In my experience, for every goldbricker there are about 200 students using the program exactly as it was intended.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I never said that people with less money shouldn't be able to go to college.

...

The entire financial aid process has gotten out of hand. Virtually anyone can go to college whether they can afford it or not.

 

[fromthebox]

Dsmoody23 - there are grants beside Pell available to many students at my UG. The California version of the Pell is a $12,500 award at the UC level. That's more than the yearly in-state tuition ($11,600 last year) and you qualify through Fafsa. Some of my classmates had Cal grants in addition to Pells. So the money is out there some times.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

If we can't even get the government to subsidize our loans, somehow I doubt they'll get to the point of subsidizing our tuition 🙁
Would certainly love to hear ideas about a tuition cap though it does sound too good be true

I know. It probably IS too good to be true. However, IMO, there are many things that could be taken out of the average university budget to make up for it (i.e. do coaches really need to be paid as much as they are? Do we really need to employ as many people in purely administrative and paperwork jobs?) Increasing admission is our field is a bad idea right now, based on what the job market is looking like.

 

[Trilt]

I guess it's reasonable to ask where that money comes from?

If it's personal money, then they're obviously not low-income.

If it's grant money, I'm not sure how that lifestyle is possible on about 5 grand a year.

If it's loan money... then it's just that. A loan. Not free money.

The problem is, if it's any one of these, your post makes no sense.

And beyond that, do you honestly feel like your specific experience with the students you cite represent the state and federal aid program as a whole? In my experience, for every goldbricker there are about 200 students using the program exactly as it was intended.

I don't think I ever said it was free money? Whether they get loans or grants, there are still students who are not just barely scraping by, working full time jobs and making every choice to minimize cash expenditures. Which is what you presented as the standard.

Also, there are more places to get grants than just the pell grant... community scholarships are often need-based, and schools often have their own programs to offer aid, especially to the most needy of students.

And yes, I do believe what I said; that is, that there are shades of grey, with some students barely struggling through and working intensely hard to overcome their backgrounds, and some having a lot handed to them. Most sit somewhere in the middle.

 

[that redhead]

And let's face it, many vet students do not pay out of pocket. Many use these government loans. The universities know that the government will allow a student to borrow up to and including full tuition plus expenses. Knowing this, universities have raised and raised the tuition over the years because the government always comes through.

Probably the biggest truth right there - they know they'll get their money and there's no reason not to milk it for all its worth by way of increase tuition every year. The point at which potential students start balking at the cost is a lot further up there than if people were paying out of pocket since it's a loan and it doesn't smack them in the face until a while later.

My biggest concern about revenue-generating practices by the school is the idea of increasing class size. They'll continue to flood the job market at greater and greater rates; even now people can't get the jobs they were under the impression needed so badly to be filled and that's before class sizes are increased across the board. I'd rather pay more tuition and keep class sizes small thus marginally increasing my chance at getting a job when I'm out and paying back those loans than fight tuition increases and have them resort to other methods to get the money.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Justavet - I was offered the deal as well, forgive me for not wanting to move into a home under the control of a man who has his own view of who I should be that involved a degree he specified. I chose out of state to get away from a place I never wanted to be and avoid a life where everything came with a condition. And yes, his income kept me from aid.

It hurts to be told i'm pissy about daddy not giving me what I wanted. I think we all should do what we want as long as we are informed.

Sorry that came out that kind of harsh. But I guess the point I was trying to get at (that you seem to get from the above post) is that you did make the informed choice to do what you want. You had the choice to live under your father's roof for another 4 years to go to a school you didn't want to debt free, or take on the financial situation yourself and go where you wanted to. You had a choice, where most people who need financial aid do not. I'm not sure that's responsibility of the government or your oos school. I'm not saying that you made a bad choice, or that your situation doesn't suck... but I just don't know if it has too much to do with whether the financial aid system is horrible or not. The point of financial aid is not to give money to students who want to be independent of their parents because they don't get along.

That being said though, it does get murky. I think it really sucks are for the people who are estranged entirely from their wealthy parents not by choice (or have 2 sets of divorced and remarried parents that combined make you not qualify but don't want to foot the bill) and do not get any aid. The "once you're 18 you're on your own" types too. At that point, you have no money and it's incredibly difficult/impossible to be considered independent.