A little upset with PAs lately

[FutureDoc4]

Both on this board and in the clinic I have noticed a recent change in attitude of PAs.

Original it was PA+MD/DO (and this is the model I wanted)---PAs handling bread & better... well trained and in the medical model but understand their limitations

There seems to be a generation of PA students who seem to think they "**** don't stink" and they're education and qualifications are just as good or better than medical students (see recent threads on this forum)

What upset me today...is with my preceptor in Geriatrics a PA had the nerve to tell our attending that PAs learn exactly what allopathic medical students do in 3 years instead of 4.

My attending laughed in their face.

Is this new concept of PA students thinking:

"PAs are just as awesome as medical students In fact, we are smarter than medical students because we learn what they do in 3 years instead of 4."


prominent in all recent PA classes?


Although PAs are well-qualified academically... do PAs really want to challenge allopathic medical students in terms of scientific knowledge and academic achievement?... I believe medical students are the best of the best.... and honestly, I am going to "toot our own horn here" (because NO one else will) we are the best... we are chosen because we are the best and the most academically qualified (most of the time---please don't come crying to me about that one PA student who took the MCAT had an awesome GPA and went to PA school... we have all heard that story... yes, it does exist but it is the exception not the rule)

I hope this is not a recent trend and more of a "fluke" that will come and go

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[wutthechris]

Thumbs up for an original thread idea!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

FutureDoc - I'm a PA student, but I'm probably close to twice as old as you, and have been around the block of life a LOT more than you have.

All that being said, I'm going to work for you (or someone like you) soon. You'll be the Doc. You will have had a dozen or so years of education and tens of thousands of clinical hours. That means when I find something I don't know, haven't seen, and don't know what to do....I'll expect YOU to know what it is, have seen it before, and know what to do because YOU're the Doc.

I hope that scares the crap out of you.

A lot of PA students are VERY young and after completing such a rigerous program it is only natural for these brilliant young people to feel like they are on top of the world.

I've seen the same thing a thousand times in the military. When young people successfuly complete a significant challenge they feel they are invincible. While it usually wears off pretty quick for that individual person, there is always another youngster coming along to fill his/her shoes.

My advice is to recognize it for what it is, don't take it personal, yet firmly establish the fact that Physicians are at the pinnacle of the healthcare team.

 

[deleted6669]

AGREE with above. a lot of newer pa students haven't had a lot of prior medical experience(like old school pa's who were medics, rn's, rt's, etc) so they don't know what they don't know.
medical school obviously goes into a lot more detail in the basic medical sciences. anyone who contests that is just wrong.
that being said more senior pa's with experience in a given field may know more about that field than physicans who practice in other fields. for example after 24 yrs working in em I run circles around fp residents and new fp grads who moonlight in the dept. I have seen well over 100,000 em pts compared to their few months of rotations in the ed in medschool and as a resident. just today for example a senior fp resident (pgy3) in the dept was working up a young female pt with abd pain and didn't think she needed a pregnancy test because she had a btl. excuse me? she was totally unaware that btl increases the risk for ectopic and didn't even have ectopic on her differential....
do most em residents and atendings know more em than me? of course.
there are smart pa's and medstudents and not so bright pa students and medstuents. many(not all) pa students probably could have gotten into medschool if they so desired. admisions to pa schools now are as competitive as medschool with the same prereqs(minus mcat). the new pa program in nc this yr had 1200 applicants for 30 spots.this is not uncommon. just being a doc doesn't make you "the best of the best". could most docs do phd level work in astrophysics or engineering? could they come up with new protocols for doing basic science research(without the md/phd)? get over yourself if you think physicians are smarter than everyone else.....smarter than the general population? sure. smarter than most other folks with grad degrees? probably not.
smartest guy I know has an ms in math. works tutoring high school kids for 20 bucks/hr. he can do calculus and very involved chemistry(which he took for fun and aced as an elctive) without paper. he can play 3 dimensional chess(3 stacked boards) without a board....don't know too many docs who could do that....

 

[avatarftw]

The statistics don't lie. Here is the data from the AAPA; their most recent analysis of new PA students is from 2007. Some of the highlights:

http://www.aapa.org/images/stories/2007studentcensusregionalreport.pdf

Years Worked Full/Part Time in a Health Care Field
Twenty-seven percent of respondents report having worked less than one year or not at all in a health care field (regardless of direct patient contact), while 10 percent of respondents have worked more than nine years in a health care field. Thirty-five percent of respondents report
having worked less than one year or not at all in a health care field with direct patient contact.

Over two-thirds of students (68%) were accepted by exactly one PA program for the 2007 school year.

College Grade Point Average
The mean college grade point average for respondents nationwide is 3.5.

Conversely, the average MD matriculant has a 3.65 average and a 30.5 MCAT. Also, the acceptance rate is a paltry ~44%.

AGREE with above. a lot of newer pa students haven't had a lot of prior medical experience(like old school pa's who were medics, rn's, rt's, etc) so they don't know what they don't know.
medical school obviously goes into a lot more detail in the basic medical sciences. anyone who contests that is just wrong.
that being said more senior pa's with experience in a given field may know more about that field than physicans who practice in other fields. for example after 24 yrs working in em I run circles around fp residents and new fp grads who moonlight in the dept. I have seen well over 100,000 em pts compared to their few months of rotations in the ed in medschool and as a resident. just today for example a senior fp resident (pgy3) in the dept was working up a young female pt with abd pain and didn't think she needed a pregnancy test because she had a btl. excuse me? she was totally unaware that btl increases the risk for ectopic and didn't even have ectopic on her differential....
do most em residents and atendings know more em than me? of course.
there are smart pa's and medstudents and not so bright pa students and medstuents. many(not all) pa students probably could have gotten into medschool if they so desired. admisions to pa schools now are as competitive as medschool with the same prereqs(minus mcat). the new pa program in nc this yr had 1200 applicants for 30 spots.this is not uncommon. just being a doc doesn't make you "the best of the best". could most docs do phd level work in astrophysics or engineering? could they come up with new protocols for doing basic science research(without the md/phd)? get over yourself if you think physicians are smarter than everyone else.....smarter than the general population? sure. smarter than most other folks with grad degrees? probably not.
smartest guy I know has an ms in math. works tutoring high school kids for 20 bucks/hr. he can do calculus and very involved chemistry(which he took for fun and aced as an elctive) without paper. he can play 3 dimensional chess(3 stacked boards) without a board....don't know too many docs who could do that....

 

[deleted6669]

There are more pa programs than md programs and folks typically apply to MANY so acceptance rates may be skewed because of that. I have a student who applied to 35 programs and got into 2.
yes, md gpa's are a bit higher,(0.15) so what? is gpa a measure of inelligence or drive?
my undergrad gpa was 3.97 taking premed coursework. does that make me smarter than the avg md matriculant(3.65)?(doubt it).
the smatest doc I know had an undergrad gpa of around 3.2. now he is the head of a major stroke team.must be an idiot....

 

[drift]

Both on this board and in the clinic I have noticed a recent change in attitude of PAs.

Original it was PA+MD/DO (and this is the model I wanted)---PAs handling bread & better... well trained and in the medical model but understand their limitations

There seems to be a generation of PA students who seem to think they "**** don't stink" and they're education and qualifications are just as good or better than medical students (see recent threads on this forum)

What upset me today...is with my preceptor in Geriatrics a PA had the nerve to tell our attending that PAs learn exactly what allopathic medical students do in 3 years instead of 4.

My attending laughed in their face.

Is this new concept of PA students thinking:

"PAs are just as awesome as medical students In fact, we are smarter than medical students because we learn what they do in 3 years instead of 4."


prominent in all recent PA classes?


Although PAs are well-qualified academically... do PAs really want to challenge allopathic medical students in terms of scientific knowledge and academic achievement?... I believe medical students are the best of the best.... and honestly, I am going to "toot our own horn here" (because NO one else will) we are the best... we are chosen because we are the best and the most academically qualified (most of the time---please don't come crying to me about that one PA student who took the MCAT had an awesome GPA and went to PA school... we have all heard that story... yes, it does exist but it is the exception not the rule)

I hope this is not a recent trend and more of a "fluke" that will come and go

FutureDoc - Personally, I see these kinds of PA's/PA students (and honestly speaking med students/residents) who claim the "know it all" are generally getting to that statement generally out of desperation. I see this generally when these individuals don't get credit for what they do. Generally, the most underestimated of all the 'providers' at my hospital is hands down the PAs. They generally get close to no credit for what they do. Its a semantics problem in the end. Despite the PA producing the same result as the senior resident or even attending, people still regard them as having done a good job "assisting" the hospital, when in reality their work was no different then if even I did it. Having precepted MD/PA/NP students and supervised both NP/PAs, I can attest to this fact that I generally only see such behavior when someone's work is being undermined, student or not. Despite this, I find this behavior much more prevalent in NP Students and generally still only a rarity in MD/PAs.

EmedPA- I will agree with you that PA students are bright students. If PAs can make it through the intensity of PA programs, they could probably make it through Med School. But, FutureDoc's point is true. MD Students are most definitely smarter then PA students. 08/09 Data shows that for accepted students, GPAs were:
MD - 3.68
PA - 3.48
DO - 3.46

That being said, PA students did have higher GPAs then DO students, but MD students were significantly higher then both. Also, PA students don't have to take the MCAT, but take the GRE which are not even worth comparing. The truth is just because med students take the MCAT doesn't necessarily mean they're smarter, but it is a roadblock to MANY applicants that have good GPAs and can't produce a good MCAT score. So, that needs to be taken in consideration. But for all purposes, we CAN generalize that Medical Students are cream of the crop.

After a Medical Physician, I personally consider PAs second on the hierarchy of the HealthCare team in America.

 

[avatarftw]

Unless I'm looking at it incorrectly, this means that 68% of students applying for PA school were PA students the following year. 68% is substantially higher than 45% (68% is more than 50% greater than 45%).

Also, if I may be bold enough to say that the MCAT is much harder than the GRE. I'm not saying that somebody is smarter since they have a better GPA but I'm responding to emedpa's quote that PA schools are almost as competitive as MD schools.

Over two-thirds of students (68%) were accepted by exactly one PA program for the 2007 school year.

There are more pa programs than md programs and folks typically apply to MANY so acceptance rates may be skewed because of that. I have a student who applied to 35 programs and got into 2.
yes, md gpa's are a bit higher,(0.15) so what? is gpa a measure of inelligence or drive?
my undergrad gpa was 3.97 taking premed coursework. does that make me smarter than the avg md matriculant(3.65)?(doubt it).
the smatest doc I know had an undergrad gpa of around 3.2. now he is the head of a major stroke team.must be an idiot....

 

[avatarftw]

I will say that the higher GPA does not necessarily mean that the person will succeed in later education, although it is a strong indicator of future success. There are people with great GPA's and MCAT's that struggle in medical school....

FutureDoc - Personally, I see these kinds of PA's/PA students (and honestly speaking med students/residents) who claim the "know it all" are generally getting to that statement generally out of desperation. I see this generally when these individuals don't get credit for what they do. Generally, the most underestimated of all the 'providers' at my hospital is hands down the PAs. They generally get close to no credit for what they do. Its a semantics problem in the end. Despite the PA producing the same result as the senior resident or even attending, people still regard them as having done a good job "assisting" the hospital, when in reality their work was no different then if even I did it. Having precepted MD/PA/NP students and supervised both NP/PAs, I can attest to this fact that I generally only see such behavior when someone's work is being undermined, student or not. Despite this, I find this behavior much more prevalent in NP Students and generally still only a rarity in MD/PAs.

EmedPA- I will agree with you that PA students are bright students. If PAs can make it through the intensity of PA programs, they could probably make it through Med School. But, FutureDoc's point is true. MD Students are most definitely smarter then PA students. 08/09 Data shows that for accepted students, GPAs were:
MD - 3.68
PA - 3.48
DO - 3.46

That being said, PA students did have higher GPAs then DO students, but MD students were significantly higher then both. Also, PA students don't have to take the MCAT, but take the GRE which are not even worth comparing. The truth is just because med students take the MCAT doesn't necessarily mean they're smarter, but it is a roadblock to MANY applicants that have good GPAs and can't produce a good MCAT score. So, that needs to be taken in consideration. But for all purposes, we CAN generalize that Medical Students are cream of the crop.

After a Medical Physician, I personally consider PAs second on the hierarchy of the HealthCare team in America.

 

[drift]

I will say that the higher GPA does not necessarily mean that the person will succeed in later education, although it is a strong indicator of future success. There are people with great GPA's and MCAT's that struggle in medical school....

Agreed. Just showing that there IS a difference between PAs and MDs. I'm probably the strongest proponent of PAs out there, and I would go as far as to say that they filling a very crucial void in our system that I would hate to see noctors fill, but that void can only be filled if they know their role. I have found that for the most part (>95%) PA's and PA students know their role and are aware of our role. The ones that don't, well simple, they get fired.

 

[deleted6669]

drift- thanks for your input. agree with all points.appreciate your support of pa's.
mcat>>>gre. no doubt about it.
ms1 intensity/depth>>>pa1. no doubt about it.

 

[Starpower]

I hope the 3rd year who couldn't identify the femoral artery in the OR doesn't represent the best of the best!

Seriously tho, this thread screams ego issues.

Instead of referring to MD students as "best of the best", it's much more accurate in my opinion to refer to them as the ones who have gone for the most education and succeeded. There are many PA and DO students who are the "best of the best", and some of them had a higher GPA when applying than the 3.68 med student (there are quite a few of my classmates who were 4.0 honors in undergrad).

Honestly, could some of these posters make it any more obvious the real reasons behind their applying to med school? I'll tell ya one thing, people like that will NEVER treat me by my choice. Ever. I want a good Doctor, but not a bloated one.

**edited to add that DOs actually receive the most training**

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I hope the 3rd year who couldn't identify the femoral artery in the OR doesn't represent the best of the best!

Seriously tho, this thread screams ego issues.

Instead of referring to MD students as "best of the best", it's much more accurate in my opinion to refer to them as the ones who have gone for the most education and succeeded. There are many PA and DO students who are the "best of the best", and some of them had a higher GPA when applying then the 3.68 med student (there are quite a few of my classmates who were 4.0 honors in undergrad).

Honestly, could some of these posters make it any more obvious the real reasons behind their applying to med school? I'll tell ya one thing, people like that will NEVER treat me by my choice. Ever. I want a good Doctor, but not a bloated one.

**edited to add that DOs actually receive the most training**

I find this statement to be infuriating - though in fairness, its not just you but everyone on this forum seems to feel that way. I want the brightest doc I can get. I don't care if my surgeon is the biggest ******* in the history of *******s if he's the best at taking care of whatever problem I'm dealing with.

The rest of your post is pretty good though.

 

[Starpower]

I find this statement to be infuriating - though in fairness, its not just you but everyone on this forum seems to feel that way. I want the brightest doc I can get. I don't care if my surgeon is the biggest ******* in the history of *******s if he's the best at taking care of whatever problem I'm dealing with.

The rest of your post is pretty good though.

Oh no no no, your problem here is that you believe (to be fair, you've most likely inundated) a Doctor can't be the best of both worlds. In fact, they can. The best of them are. For that surgeon who you think is the "best" ... I'll find you one who's better, who is both brilliant, open and (omg) not bloated. I don't want someone who went into medicine because they wanted to beat others. I want someone who went into medicine to care for people. Yes, to even (omg) care for the education of PA students.

 

[Dr Oops]

Oh no no no, your problem here is that you believe (to be fair, you've most likely inundated) a Doctor can't be the best of both worlds. In fact, they can. The best of them are. For that surgeon who you think is the "best" ... I'll find you one who's better, who is both brilliant, open and (omg) not bloated. I don't want someone who went into medicine because they wanted to beat others. I want someone who went into medicine to care for people. Yes, to even (omg) care for the education of PA students.

Well when you have PA students saying that they have learned all the same things in half the time. It firstly gives of an air of arrogance, and if they really did learn anything then they have nothing to learn from the doctor.

Physicians are being attacked by nurses with the same tag line. Then you see another practitioner claiming the same thing...well what do you expect to happen?

 

[Denatured]

The really sad situation here is that such smart people are taking what is said on an anonymous internet forum/meeting a handful of jerks and applying it to all of a specific group.

There will always be arrogant know-it-alls in every profession, even more in students of a profession. Just because we all have met a smart ass surgeon doesn't mean we should paint all surgeons with a wide brush.

Seriously guys, think about it.

Here is an equation to illustrate my point.

I'm not saying those on here who have been speaking on behalf of PAs are being egocentric. Maybe over-zealous, but that is understandable when, to them, it seems like they are being put down.

 

[Starpower]

Wow, great insight/intuition from the last two posters. Noted. Kudos.

 

[wutthechris]

Unless I'm looking at it incorrectly, this means that 68% of students applying for PA school were PA students the following year. 68% is substantially higher than 45% (68% is more than 50% greater than 45%).

Over two-thirds of students (68%) were accepted by exactly one PA program for the 2007 school year.

You're trying to hint that PA school is not as hard to get into but you can't base that solely off of the data that you have provided. I don't care enough to look this up myself but I will say that if you want this point to stick, you need to also take into account the number of applicants in comparison to the number of available seats. I'm willing to bet that the applicants to seat ratio is much higher for med school, yielding a lower acceptance rate.

 

[avatarftw]

I'm not hinting, I'm saying that it is likely harder to get accepted to an MD school (in general) than a PA school.

Why do you need to consider the absolute numbers? (The number of applicants as compared to the number of spots) The acceptance rate tells you all that you need to know, unless I'm misunderstanding something. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not a statistics expert.

If there are so many more applicants per seat for MD schools, wouldn't that support the idea that its harder to get into an allopathic med school than PA school?

You're trying to hint that PA school is not as hard to get into but you can't base that solely off of the data that you have provided. I don't care enough to look this up myself but I will say that if you want this point to stick, you need to also take into account the number of applicants in comparison to the number of available seats. I'm willing to bet that the applicants to seat ratio is much higher for med school, yielding a lower acceptance rate.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Well when you have PA students saying that they have learned all the same things in half the time. It firstly gives of an air of arrogance, and if they really did learn anything then they have nothing to learn from the doctor.

Physicians are being attacked by nurses with the same tag line. Then you see another practitioner claiming the same thing...well what do you expect to happen?

^^This is what it comes down to

I was angrier before but I wanted to reiterate that I respect PAs and I realize how valuable their knowledge and experience is.

It just feels like that amongst most younger PAs that respect is NOT mutual..... Comments like "we learn all the same as medical students" makes "light" of our time and sacrifice to get into medical school and make it though "alive"

Finally, I realize PA school admissions is competitive but PLEASE do not even try to compare it to medical school admissions....AAMC shows that this is not even a comparison

(to the statistics question)
& yes, comparing the percent admitted is the appropriate comparison because it compares the # of applicants & the # of available seats.

If I ran a simple Student's two sample t-test (assuming normally distributed & equal variances) I am sure I would get a p value <0.05 for the difference between the groups (indicating their is a statistically significance difference in admissions between the groups).

StarPower: your lack of respect for medical student education and its rigors is ridiculous... you are th emost dangerous type of mid-level provider.... thinking you "know it all" as well as the docs

 

[Starpower]

too much trolling to mention

Annnd, ignored. I wish you nothing but the best in life, do well for others.

 

[FutureDoc4]

FutureDoc - Personally, I see these kinds of PA's/PA students (and honestly speaking med students/residents) who claim the "know it all" are generally getting to that statement generally out of desperation. I see this generally when these individuals don't get credit for what they do. Generally, the most underestimated of all the 'providers' at my hospital is hands down the PAs. They generally get close to no credit for what they do. Its a semantics problem in the end. Despite the PA producing the same result as the senior resident or even attending, people still regard them as having done a good job "assisting" the hospital, when in reality their work was no different then if even I did it. Having precepted MD/PA/NP students and supervised both NP/PAs, I can attest to this fact that I generally only see such behavior when someone's work is being undermined, student or not. Despite this, I find this behavior much more prevalent in NP Students and generally still only a rarity in MD/PAs.

EmedPA- I will agree with you that PA students are bright students. If PAs can make it through the intensity of PA programs, they could probably make it through Med School. But, FutureDoc's point is true. MD Students are most definitely smarter then PA students. 08/09 Data shows that for accepted students, GPAs were:
MD - 3.68
PA - 3.48
DO - 3.46

That being said, PA students did have higher GPAs then DO students, but MD students were significantly higher then both. Also, PA students don't have to take the MCAT, but take the GRE which are not even worth comparing. The truth is just because med students take the MCAT doesn't necessarily mean they're smarter, but it is a roadblock to MANY applicants that have good GPAs and can't produce a good MCAT score. So, that needs to be taken in consideration. But for all purposes, we CAN generalize that Medical Students are cream of the crop.
After a Medical Physician, I personally consider PAs second on the hierarchy of the HealthCare team in America.

Very well spoken

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Oh no no no, your problem here is that you believe (to be fair, you've most likely inundated) a Doctor can't be the best of both worlds. In fact, they can. The best of them are. For that surgeon who you think is the "best" ... I'll find you one who's better, who is both brilliant, open and (omg) not bloated. I don't want someone who went into medicine because they wanted to beat others. I want someone who went into medicine to care for people. Yes, to even (omg) care for the education of PA students.

Where did I say that all of the best doctors are jerks? I merely (repeat MERELY) said that for many things, especially procedures, I will go to the best around to get what I need done regardless of the doctor's personality.

Case in point: in my hometown there are about 10-12 ophthalmologists. There is one who is quite simply better than all the rest at cataract extraction. Their final vision is better, less inflammation post-op, less pain, and he's easily the fastest surgeon. He also does 2-3x the cases of anyone else in town. That being said, he's kind of a jerk. For this type of thing, I could care less. I've sent all of my family to him when they need this, and I'd go myself if I thought he'd still be alive when I need that surgery. Though we might wish it so, sometimes the best around isn't going to be the nicest most caring person.

I think a little competition, in the procedural fields especially, is a good thing. It keeps people on their toes and wanting to improve. Obviously you can take it too far, but there's little in life that you can't take too far.

 

[Makati2008]

^^This is what it comes down to

I was angrier before but I wanted to reiterate that I respect PAs and I realize how valuable their knowledge and experience is.

It just feels like that amongst most younger PAs that respect is NOT mutual..... Comments like "we learn all the same as medical students" makes "light" of our time and sacrifice to get into medical school and make it though "alive"

Finally, I realize PA school admissions is competitive but PLEASE do not even try to compare it to medical school admissions....AAMC shows that this is not even a comparison

(to the statistics question)
& yes, comparing the percent admitted is the appropriate comparison because it compares the # of applicants & the # of available seats.

If I ran a simple Student's two sample t-test (assuming normally distributed & equal variances) I am sure I would get a p value <0.05 for the difference between the groups (indicating their is a statistically significance difference in admissions between the groups).

StarPower: your lack of respect for medical student education and its rigors is ridiculous... you are th emost dangerous type of mid-level provider.... thinking you "know it all" as well as the docs

As a PA-C(not a PA-S) who is currently a Med Student. I have to agree with this sadly. I usually don't go against colleagues but on this one I will. I foresee a few bad patient outcomes before he retires as a PA unless his tune changes.

 

[Starpower]

As a PA-C(not a PA-S) who is currently a Med Student. I have to agree with this sadly. I usually don't go against colleagues but on this one I will. I foresee a few bad patient outcomes before he retires as a PA unless his tune changes.

lol

I'm actually not one of the posters who says that PA education is equal to med school education, but I gather you weren't able to recognize that. I am constantly honoring Doctors and hard-working and intelligent medical students, and have regularly stated how impressed I've been on grand rounds and conferences. And I will readily admit that there are PA students who have a long way to go. But what I do say is that there is a lack of knowledge and respect regarding PA education, on the part of many med students here, and that being smart doesn't automatically mean that you know everything. The same goes for me as well, which is why I made sure to ask so many questions on my rotations.

Your consistent attempt to deface me speaks very poorly of your reputation and character. Further, my high scores from Attendings who worked with me for 12 hours a day for weeks on end, matters much more to me than your strange and warped statements. I've worked with patients over the last 20 years, and there have been no "bad outcomes".

I don't think you're 'sad' to speak those words at all, I think you're more likely bitter at me for some reason and feel the need to troll. No idea, don't really care, sorry.

VA, I completely understand what you're saying. Still, just as you know a great ophthalmologist who's a bit of a jerk, I know some amazing Docs (including surgeons), who are brilliant (genius, even), who truly honor the creed to 'do no harm' in all ways.

 

[Makati2008]

lol

I'm actually not one of the posters who says that PA education is equal to med school education, but I gather you weren't able to recognize that. I am constantly honoring Doctors and hard-working and intelligent medical students, and have regularly stated how impressed I've been on grand rounds and conferences. And I will readily admit that there are PA students who have a long way to go. But what I do say is that there is a lack of knowledge and respect regarding PA education, on the part of many med students here, and that being smart doesn't automatically mean that you know everything. The same goes for me as well, which is why I made sure to ask so many questions on my rotations.

Your consistent attempt to deface me speaks very poorly of your reputation and character. Further, my high scores from Attendings who worked with me for 12 hours a day for weeks on end, matters much more to me than your strange and warped statements. I've worked with patients over the last 20 years, and there have been no "bad outcomes".

I don't think you're 'sad' to speak those words at all, I think you're more likely bitter at me for some reason and feel the need to troll. No idea, don't really care, sorry.

VA, I completely understand what you're saying. Still, just as you know a great ophthalmologist who's a bit of a jerk, I know some amazing Docs (including surgeons), who are brilliant (genius, even), who truly honor the creed to 'do no harm' in all ways.

Actually I am. I am a PA defender(two of the people I am very very close to in this world are PA's that are much much better clinic wise than I could hope to be) as a medical student(and yes we PA's are VERY hated here) and I will be one as a doctor. But I have seen cases where people with the extensive experience(such as yourself) miss something as obvious as an inflammed appendix due to hubris or treats conditions without seeing the patient via the phone and things go sour.

Not trying to deface you but you need to A.)Calm down B.)Stop trying to condescend on so many others. C.)Don't heed my advice but some of the other Elder PA's that have told you check the attitude. Pick one if you would like.

Furthermore shouldn't it tell you something if your making your PA colleagues question you(there have been several on the board) as well as your future bosses. Your 20+years of experience is great and I applaud that but being the PA is a totally different ball game.

BTW-You seem to be the only one who takes an issue with my reputation oddly??? If anyone else thinks I am being harsh or jerk please post it here or inbox me and I will definitely tone it down and admit I am wrong.

PS-I will understand if you don't like me but I am far from a troll. That is fine but it shows a lack of control to call one names. And remember age doesn't always equal wisdom!!!

Best of luck in whatever field you chose as a PA.

 

[deleted6669]

elderpa...hmm has an interesting ring to it.
star- makati actually has been pro-pa in his posting here on sdn and does have the unique perspective of a pa moving on to medschool.

makati- no flame here but remember docs also make the mistake of "examining patients over the phone" and blowing off symptoms every day. I know you won't do that but there are (lazy) providers of all types who do...

 

[Dr Oops]

lol

I'm actually not one of the posters who says that PA education is equal to med school education, but I gather you weren't able to recognize that. I am constantly honoring Doctors and hard-working and intelligent medical students, and have regularly stated how impressed I've been on grand rounds and conferences. And I will readily admit that there are PA students who have a long way to go. But what I do say is that there is a lack of knowledge and respect regarding PA education, on the part of many med students here, and that being smart doesn't automatically mean that you know everything. The same goes for me as well, which is why I made sure to ask so many questions on my rotations.

Most of the med students have been saying how much they respect the PA education, its the PA students who have been disrespecting the the Medical education as a "slower version" of yours. I have no doubt that PAs are intelligent, but do you really think we just twiddle our thumbs for twice as long as you guys?

The first thing I learned in med school was how little i knew.

Your consistent attempt to deface me speaks very poorly of your reputation and character. Further, my high scores from Attendings who worked with me for 12 hours a day for weeks on end, matters much more to me than your strange and warped statements. I've worked with patients over the last 20 years, and there have been no "bad outcomes".

I don't think you're 'sad' to speak those words at all, I think you're more likely bitter at me for some reason and feel the need to troll. No idea, don't really care, sorry.

I have no idea where youre coming up with this nonsense. He has a much better perspective than most of us here. You bragging about your grades doesnt impress anyone here. We're all used to doing well.

And you picking out his supposed "attacks" demonstrates a lack of strength in your ability/argument against his points.

VA, I completely understand what you're saying. Still, just as you know a great ophthalmologist who's a bit of a jerk, I know some amazing Docs (including surgeons), who are brilliant (genius, even), who truly honor the creed to 'do no harm' in all ways.

just FYI surgery is against the Hippocratic oath.

 

[Makati2008]

Emed-Yep seen that first hand on all fronts and you are totally right....
Dr O-I agree with you.

GN guys/gals!

 

[pamac]

68% of applicants that applied to PA programs didnt get into PA school... 68% if the study's population of accepted students were accepted by just one school. everyone in the survey was accepted to a program. the other 32% were accepted by two or more programs.

 

[pamac]

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/114398

heres a more current overview of the PA stats. looks like 14,600 applicants for 4800 PA program seats. 33% acceptance rate. doesnt mean anything on its own, though.

 

[Starpower]

And you picking out his supposed "attacks" demonstrates a lack of strength in your ability/argument against his points.

There were no points. "He" copied and pasted a post from another poster (without quotation), highlighted the part about me, and left 'his' own little comment at the end.

People can read for themselves. I can't help the bitter student (now students) who doesn't/don't like me for being strong. Again, that's not what matters to me. Opinions of my Attending preceptors are what matter to me, and they greatly overshadow petty internet postings. So pour on the hate, pour it thick, do whatever you need to feel better in your life. If you need a scapegoat, I'll bear the brunt. Won't make a spot of difference to me.

Most of the med students have been saying how much they respect the PA education

We must have been reading different posts. The posts I was referring to were written by med students who obviously didn't even know what PA education is. Happy to help. There's been some great constructive work in some of the threads here recently, I wish there was more of it.

 

[Starpower]

whoops, double-post

 

[Starpower]

star- makati actually has been pro-pa in his posting here on sdn and does have the unique perspective of a pa moving on to medschool.

so they say

 

[Makati2008]

so they say

1.)No reason to project. And I won't try to go into the subtle insults such as yourself.
2.)Go back to when the D.O. PA-Bridge first occurred and who was the first PA to post?? I am very very Pro-PA
3.)If I remember correctly you rubbed Primadonna wrong, Corps, myself and a few others wrong a while back(one attending, one medical student, and one who is about to start medical school-that are ALL PA's to name a few).
4.)Again you can't help those who don't want to be helped. I just advise you to disregard me on this subject if you don't think I am reliable and go to one of the Elder PA's.

In the end, its about my patient care and I want ALL to do well ESPECIALLY PA'S because we are held at a higher standard.

PS-Thanks to the gals/guys that support my previous post.

 

[Starpower]

1.)No reason to project. And I won't try to go into the subtle insults such as yourself.

Oh no?? LOL You only say that I'm a danger to patients, no subtlety there. My preceptors would rip you apart if they heard you say that, it would be sort of sad to watch.

2.)Go back to when the D.O. PA-Bridge first occurred and who was the first PA to post?? I am very very Pro-PA

As am I, which is why I lent a hand by helping explain PA education. But you didn't like that, and instead saw me as the 'face of PA students you don't like'.

3.)If I remember correctly you rubbed Primadonna wrong, Corps, myself and a few others wrong a while back(one attending, one medical student, and one who is about to start medical school-that are ALL PA's to name a few).

Heaven forbid that I rubbed an anti-PA medical student the wrong way. I remember Primadonna joining you in your attack, yes, but I don't remember "a few others". If there were, they likely were under the same wrong assumptions that you were/are. If I remember correctly, you never did quote me directly, only started making vague generalizations that had nothing to do with what I had been discussing.

4.)Again you can't help those who don't want to be helped. I just advise you to disregard me on this subject if you don't think I am reliable and go to one of the Elder PA's.

Your complete lack of respect for the PAs/MDs/DOs who have overseen my training up until this point is STAGGERING. You have some serious ego issues, and I suspect it's the reason you've not felt satisfied with your PA career.

In the end, its about my patient care and I want ALL to do well ESPECIALLY PA'S because we are held at a higher standard.

Well, great! I have not one problem with this. Then again, why would I?

PS-Thanks to the gals/guys that support my previous post.

How nice. And I'll thank the gals/guys who supported mine. Neener neener?

Anyhow, if you're truly not a troll, the next time you decide that it's acceptable to slander me publicly, I'm going to ask that you do one simple thing.

One thing.

Very simple.

I think you might be able to handle it.

Quote me.

Should I repeat that?

Quote me.

Quote anything I've ever said, before you make your strange inferences/accusations. I don't mean make some vague, generalizing comment, I mean quote me directly.

That would be a good place to start. Because if you're adopting the same type of 'ignore the actual reality of a situation but just make a judgment based on what you think, without being objective and actually looking at the facts' attitude, with your patients and their families, then you have no business in patient care and I would suggest a career in some other field.

All that being said, if your goal is simply to remind me and all students to stay on my toes, I certainly appreciate that. I'm pretty infamous for asking questions and for help when necessary. I would much rather make a phone call when something goes "sour" (something which PAs are legally allowed/mandated to do, but surely you know that? I would hope anyone would make that call!), than make a mistake.

 

[Starpower]

just FYI surgery is against the Hippocratic oath.

Interesting theory. I would disagree, as correcting/removing pathology tops not doing anything at all. What is more harmful, turning away or cutting/fixing? I'll choose cutting/fixing, and hopefully it's by a brilliant surgeon who's not an a-hole

 

[Denatured]

The amount of time and effort put into this thread is starting to get ri-gotdang-diculous. You people are obsessed. Seriously, do you all wash your hands three times, turn the lock three times, and flip the light switch 3 times before you sleep?

 

[bradt9881]

The amount of time and effort put into this thread is starting to get ri-gotdang-diculous. You people are obsessed. Seriously, do you all wash your hands three times, turn the lock three times, and flip the light switch 3 times before you sleep?

No kidding. The overdosing on testosterone, insulting each other, and unzipping to measure the differences in inches has gotten way out of hand.

 

[Denatured]

No kidding. The overdosing on testosterone, insulting each other, and unzipping to measure the differences in inches has gotten way out of hand.

I'm pretty sure we'll need a mop after this pissing match.

I don't think they are big enough to measure in inches...millimeters maybeZING

 

[deleted6669]

unzipping to measure the differences in inches has gotten way out of hand.

easier to just use feet as the measurement standard anyway....

 

[Makati2008]

Lol you guys got jokes. I am glad we can get along. Is there anyway we can get a moderator to basically lock/end this thread. It has ran way off of course.

E.

 

[Dr Oops]

Interesting theory. I would disagree, as correcting/removing pathology tops not doing anything at all. What is more harmful, turning away or cutting/fixing? I'll choose cutting/fixing, and hopefully it's by a brilliant surgeon who's not an a-hole

its not a theory its in the oath

 

[FutureDoc4]

Lol you guys got jokes. I am glad we can get along. Is there anyway we can get a moderator to basically lock/end this thread. It has ran way off of course.

E.

Wow, came back to check on this and this continued to escalate.

I gotta say, I feel better knowing there are PAs on this board that saw through Starpower's bull****

Overall, although I have a bitter taste in my mouth due to a few recent PA experiences, I am still a huge PA backer of education and their role in medicine.

In my practice in the future will be built on MD/DOs & PAs working together

Trust me in that medical students & attendings/residents value you PAs way more than DNPs or any other mid-level provider.

I also ask that this thread be locked.

 

[Denatured]

Lol you guys got jokes. I am glad we can get along. Is there anyway we can get a moderator to basically lock/end this thread. It has ran way off of course.

E.

While I'm against censorship and love discussion, this thread has run it's course. The merit has long since been lost and no consensus will ever be reached as this pertains to individuals perception of other individuals. No facts or data can be used in this argument. Close it and let's move on to other issues.

 

[ARAI]

drift- thanks for your input. agree with all points.appreciate your support of pa's.
mcat>>>gre. no doubt about it.
ms1 intensity/depth>>>pa1. no doubt about it.

I agree that the MCAT is much more difficult than the GRE. However, is the first year of med school more intense than the first year of PA school?

The school I am at has both a MD and a PA program. The PA1s do 87 credits in 16 consecutive months. The MD1+MD2 (i.e., both MD didactic years combined) complete 87 credits in 20 non-consecutive months. So, you tell me. Is the first year of the MD program (8-9 months) more intense?

Well when you have PA students saying that they have learned all the same things in half the time. It firstly gives of an air of arrogance, and if they really did learn anything then they have nothing to learn from the doctor.

They don't learn learn all the same things. Pretty close though. PAs generally have studies that are more focused on clinical diagnosis/treatment and less focused on intricacies of basic medical science--you know, the stuff most med students forget once they finish USMLE Step 1 (i.e., remembering which cytokine is responsible for immune suppression).

In the end, PA school and MD/DO school are all about laying a foundation education. Both programs do a good job at this.

I'm not saying those on here who have been speaking on behalf of PAs are being egocentric. Maybe over-zealous, but that is understandable when, to them, it seems like they are being put down.

Well said. No one likes to be looked down on or spoken down to. If a MD student comes out and says "in school, we receive a far superior education when compared to PAs," it wouldn't be unforeseeable for a PA to try and explain similarities in terms of a MD program.

Only those with falsely inflated egos might try to chastise statements such as "PAs take most of the same classes as MDs."

While I'm against censorship and love discussion, this thread has run it's course. The merit has long since been lost and no consensus will ever be reached as this pertains to individuals perception of other individuals. No facts or data can be used in this argument. Close it and let's move on to other issues.

I agree. Even if people do bring in facts, they just get explained as being flukes.

 

[FutureDoc4]

I agree that the MCAT is much more difficult than the GRE. However, is the first year of med school more intense than the first year of PA school?

The school I am at has both a MD and a PA program. The PA1s do 87 credits in 16 consecutive months. The MD1+MD2 (i.e., both MD didactic years combined) complete 87 credits in 20 non-consecutive months. So, you tell me. Is the first year of the MD program (8-9 months) more intense?



They don't learn learn all the same things. Pretty close though. PAs generally have studies that are more focused on clinical diagnosis/treatment and less focused on intricacies of basic medical science--you know, the stuff most med students forget once they finish USMLE Step 1 (i.e., remembering which cytokine is responsible for immune suppression).

In the end, PA school and MD/DO school are all about laying a foundation education. Both programs do a good job at this.

Well said. No one likes to be looked down on or spoken down to. If a MD student comes out and says "in school, we receive a far superior education when compared to PAs," it wouldn't be unforeseeable for a PA to try and explain similarities in terms of a MD program.

Only those with falsely inflated egos might try to chastise statements such as "PAs take most of the same classes as MDs."




I agree. Even if people do bring in facts, they just get explained as being flukes.

Agreed, it would be arrogant of a allopathic medical student to say that PAs are lacking a solid basic medical science background, just like it would be arrogant of a PA to insist that PA school and MD school are identical in academic rigor and expectations, correct?

 

[deleted6669]

there is a difference between hours spent in class and depth of knowledge required. I agree that at SOME places (including my program) 1st yr pa students may spend more time in class/week than md ms1 students do. that doesn't mean they learn the same stuff. we cover PART of ms1(say 25-30%- yes, that low.....look at their ms1 curriculum- we don't do a lot of histology, embryology,biochem, etc) and PART of ms2(say 60-70%%) in 1 yr. they cover all of ms1 and ms2 in 2 years.
for all intents and purposes at a good pa program pa2=ms3.that is why the bridge program gives credit for a full clinical yr. it's the only part of the education that is similar enough to compare straight across.
pa's who go back to medschool typically say ms1 is the hardest thing they have ever done then coast through ms2-4.

 

[ARAI]

Agreed, it would be arrogant of a allopathic medical student to say that PAs are lacking a solid basic medical science background, just like it would be arrogant of a PA to insist that PA school and MD school are identical in academic rigor and expectations, correct?

Fair enough. You're obviously alluding to posts I've placed in the past; those are based on what I've seen between the PA and MD programs at my school. It wasn't a fit of arrogance that encouraged my comments.

that doesn't mean they learn the same stuff. we cover PART of ms1(say 25-30%- yes, that low.....look at their ms1 curriculum- we don't do a lot of histology, embryology,biochem, etc) and PART of ms2(say 60-70%%) in 1 yr. they cover all of ms1 and ms2 in 2 years.

Interesting you should say that, because those are the only 3 courses PAs here don't take from the M1 curriculum. They get all the other stuff: gross anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, genetics, immunology, microbiology, behavioral sciences, & pathology. As for the M2, it appears PAs are receiving the full system study of medicine the M2s are receiving. Not sure about other schools, but that's how it is here.

 

[sylvanthus]

I agree that the MCAT is much more difficult than the GRE. However, is the first year of med school more intense than the first year of PA school?

The school I am at has both a MD and a PA program. The PA1s do 87 credits in 16 consecutive months. The MD1+MD2 (i.e., both MD didactic years combined) complete 87 credits in 20 non-consecutive months. So, you tell me. Is the first year of the MD program (8-9 months) more intense?



They don't learn learn all the same things. Pretty close though. PAs generally have studies that are more focused on clinical diagnosis/treatment and less focused on intricacies of basic medical science--you know, the stuff most med students forget once they finish USMLE Step 1 (i.e., remembering which cytokine is responsible for immune suppression).

In the end, PA school and MD/DO school are all about laying a foundation education. Both programs do a good job at this.

Well said. No one likes to be looked down on or spoken down to. If a MD student comes out and says "in school, we receive a far superior education when compared to PAs," it wouldn't be unforeseeable for a PA to try and explain similarities in terms of a MD program.

Only those with falsely inflated egos might try to chastise statements such as "PAs take most of the same classes as MDs."


I agree. Even if people do bring in facts, they just get explained as being flukes.

Credit hours is not a good measure of intensity. Every medical school is different in how many "credits" they say their students complete. Mine was 105 hours the first year. Does that mean I win the intensity competition because my school has 18 more credit hours in the first year? Not at all. Also, my 3.5 credit hour pathology class was far far far more intense than a 5 credit community and behavioral medicine course. Credit hours means nothing.