A Major Caribbean School's Admission Lie?

[RN-BSN-CCRN]

Just some information that people might interesting. I have been accepted at a DO school & 3 of the Big 5 Caribbean MD schools & 2 non-big 5 Caribbean Schools. What helped me make my decision:

1) DO Advantage = additional OMT training (why would I want less training?)
2) % of Students that graduate in 4 years X % residency placement.

Note: if a Caribbean School gives their attrition rate then remember that 1) They may lie 2) it may include students taking more than 4 years... & 1 less year of an attending physician salary is an $xxx,xxx mistake.

I liked this Caribbean school because they are reasonably priced, accredited in all 50 states & had a deal with FIU.... but then...

This school told me that their 70% graduation rate and a 4 year graduation rate is 60% and that their graduate residency placement rate is 85% (I am attaching a screenshot of that conversation). IF you multiply the 4 year number (60%) by residency percent (85%) you get 51% Which means IF I go to this school then only 51% of me & my classmates are going to be residents in 4 years (based on their information). 10% will graduate the following year (that will cost them one year attending salary $xxx,xxx if they get residency their first time trying) and 30% will not graduate at all.

BECAREFUL WHO YOU TALK TO... I was also told they have a 90% graduation rate (I don't believe this since I was told otherwise) (see attached documentation... you decide) and it takes 5 years... no 4 years... no 5 years to graduate

Conclusion:
1) Multiply 4 year graduation percent X residency percentage to see how many first year med students will get residency in 4 years.
2) Remember 1 year longer = 1 year less attending salary (not one year less resident salary because it will still be the same number of years of residency, you only loose the year less of work as an attending)
3) Ask for the 4 year graduation rate and question yourself if they could be untruthful in this number. There is a reason they don't advertise the number they accept & then the number that actually graduate...
4) I have caught representatives of this school in lies multiple times (Again this school is accredited in all 50 states). ASK QUESTIONS. ASK QUESTIONS A DIFFERENT WAY. ASK DIFFERENT PEOPLE. IF YOU GET AN EVEN NUMBER IT IS MOST LIKELY AN ESTIMATE, A GUESS, OR A LIE.

** Having worked side by side with Caribbean grad MD residents I can say that from my perspective they have always been incredibly strong residents.... maybe they have to be to get through all of this! (I personally would still consider Caribbean including this school if I was not accepted in the US)

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[RN-BSN-CCRN]

Just found this as well... Check out match vs non-match of each.

US citizens Antigua & Barbuda: 180 match & 207 non match = 387 applicants = 46.5% match rate

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[Del Caribe]

Just found this as well... Check out match vs non-match of each.

US citizens Antigua & Barbuda: 180 match & 207 non match = 387 applicants = 46.5% match rate

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Remember, students applying from the other med school in Antigua, University of Health Sciences Antigua (UHSA), contribute to the 46.5% match rate as well.

 

[the argus]

I was in the same boat as you 5 years ago, borderline US MD candidate (multiple waitlists over multiple application cycles) and acceptances from DO schools and the 2 biggest caribbean schools. I personally chose to go to the caribbean, and it was absolutely the correct choice for me. That being said, I would never tell someone that they should definitely choose to go to the caribbean. Certain types of people do very well coming out of the caribbean, but a significant amount of people also do not.

Also, it is a bad idea to go to any caribbean school other than SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba. These are the only schools with long track records of placing graduates into US residencies.

A few other comments,

DO Advantage = additional OMT training (why would I want less training?)

Because it is pseudoscience, on the same level of acupuncture, aromatherapy, homeopathy, etc. And before people start getting upset, I don't mean this as an insult. I know people who swear by acupuncture. I just don't think it belongs anywhere near anyone who wants to call themselves a physician.

Just found this as well... Check out match vs non-match of each.

US citizens Antigua & Barbuda: 180 match & 207 non match = 387 applicants = 46.5% match rate

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

These numbers do not represent first-time match rates (i.e. recent graduates entering the match for the first time) from the different islands/schools. This is true for 2 reasons.

1. In the fine print of the report it reads,

"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice. Because preliminary programs provide only one or two years of prerequisite training for entry into advanced specialty training, applicants who ranked a preliminary program first are considered not to have a preferred specialty. Lack of match success includes matching to another specialty as well as failure to match at all."

This means that people who ranked, for example, an EM program #1 on their rank list, but ended up matching to an IM program, are considered as unmatched by that report. This is not an insignificant percentage of caribbean students, being somewhere between 5-10%.

2. Mean time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years. This means that the majority of US-IMGs that don't match aren't "fresh" graduates, but have been out of school for an average of 6 years. There is a small cohort of caribbean students who are bad students but still manage to graduate, and then can't match to a residency program. These people continue to apply every year, and their numbers build up over time. The way this report is put together does not differentiate between "fresh" graduates and re-applicants. Therefore the published numbers are much lower than the actual first-time match rate.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you on the caribbean. But the numbers in that report don't really tell the whole truth when talking match success of caribbean graduates. But they also don't take into account attrition numbers, which are significant as well.

Best of luck on whatever you decide to do. The fact that you have spent the time to actually look into this stuff pretty much shows that you are thoughtful enough to excel in medical school wherever you choose to go.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I am willing to guarantee that this dude ^ works for a caribbean "medical school".

 

[the argus]

I am willing to guarantee that this dude ^ works for a caribbean "medical school".

This dude ^ certainly does not work for a caribbean "medical school" (sweet dig by the way with the quotes, really showing off your creative side!). This dude ^ recently graduated from a caribbean "medical school", did his residency interviews, and is waiting for the match.

As this dude ^ has stated multiple times on this forum, this dude ^ has no skin left in the game. Every single caribbean "medical school" could close tomorrow, and it would not affect this dude's ^ life at all.

All this dude ^ is trying to do is present an honest picture of the realities of a caribbean medical education.

This dude ^ also thinks you should shut your douchebag mouth if you don't have anything positive to contribute.

 

[Sileni]

This dude ^ certainly does not work for a caribbean "medical school" (sweet dig by the way with the quotes, really showing off your creative side!). This dude ^ recently graduated from a caribbean "medical school", did his residency interviews, and is waiting for the match.

As this dude ^ has stated multiple times on this forum, this dude ^ has no skin left in the game. Every single caribbean "medical school" could close tomorrow, and it would not affect this dude's ^ life at all.

All this dude ^ is trying to do is present an honest picture of the realities of a caribbean medical education.

This dude ^ also thinks you should shut your douchebag mouth if you don't have anything positive to contribute.

lol, chill dude. Such vicious personal attacks are only weakening your argument. Honestly, going to a non-big 4 school is a bad idea, that's frankly not debatable. The truth is - going to a caribbean school puts you at a massive disadvantage - these students have a very low chance of matching, and if they do match they match at bad programs. Sure, name drop that your graduates match at Yale, UofChicago. What you are leaving out is that they didn't match at Yale and UC - they matched at Yale-Waterbury and UC-Northshore, largely non-competitive community programs that share names and that's it.

 

[the argus]

Sorry, I thought my response was kinda funny

Honestly, going to a non-big 4 school is a bad idea, that's frankly not debatable

I agree, and literally wrote the exact same thing in my first post,

Also, it is a bad idea to go to any caribbean school other than SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba. These are the only schools with long track records of placing graduates into US residencies.

going to a caribbean school puts you at a massive disadvantage - these students have a very low chance of matching, and if they do match they match at bad programs. Sure, name drop that your graduates match at Yale, UofChicago. What you are leaving out is that they didn't match at Yale and UC - they matched at Yale-Waterbury and UC-Northshore, largely non-competitive community programs that share names and that's it.

My whole first post was dedicated to showing that if you make it through the big 4 caribbean schools (and that is a big if due to the significant attrition rates), students from these schools actually don't have a "very low" chance of matching. It's not as high as US graduates, but it's not as hopeless as you would think by reading these forums or looking at NRMP data reports without taking the time to understand what that data actually represents.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Yale and UofChicago. I certainly have never claimed that any caribbean grads have matched at the main programs for residency. That, quite frankly, would be ridiculous.

But this idea that caribbean grads only match at bad programs is patently false. Yes graduates mostly match in non-competitive specialties, but plenty of mid-tier residency programs take lots of caribbean grads every year.

And just because a program is community-based does not automatically make it a bad program. Unless you are specifically going into academic medicine (i.e. running a lab), working at a place that also has bench research really doesn't change your clinical experience. You can mostly do the same things coming from a community hospital as you can from a university hospital (unless you want to do bench research)

Again, I am not a "shill" for any caribbean medical school as I have been accused of being. Just trying to present an honest and realistic picture of caribbean medical education.

 

[deleted480308]

If you turn down a US medical school for a carib you are making a mistake

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Sorry, I thought my response was kinda funny.

About as funny as the fact that you are going to have an MD and specialize in waiting tables for your whole life.
If you are lucky you might even match to an Applebees, but dont get your hopes up.


-
Pre-meds reading this... If you get accepted to a US MD school, or a DO school, you go there.
If you dont get accepted to those, you try again.

 

[the argus]

About as funny as the fact that you are going to have an MD and specialize in waiting tables for your whole life.
If you are lucky you might even match to an Applebees, but dont get your hopes up.

this guy ^ does not think this is as funny.

 

[maygog]

Just found this as well... Check out match vs non-match of each.

US citizens Antigua & Barbuda: 180 match & 207 non match = 387 applicants = 46.5% match rate

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Antigua and Barbuda has 2 medical schools - AUA, UHSA and is affiliated with University of West Indies (COM) in cavehill, barbados. To be generous, let's assume that UHSA doesn't come into the picture when calculating the 46.5% match rate. That leaves AUA vs UWI - a significant portion of US citizens native to Antigua and other Caribbean Islands choose to attend UWI since it offers a much better education than AUA. At least 1/3rd to a half of the 46.5 % would then be attributed to UWI students + UHSA students matching out of Antigua and barbuda. So that leaves out roughly 23-30% (generous numbers) who match out of AUA. Keep in mind UWI medical program is excellent - if not geared toward USMLE examinations, their British styled curriculum gears their students to excel. I wouldn't be surprised if UWI places more graduates in the States than AUA.

In any case, if you want to be a practicing physician in the States, look no further than ROSS, SGU and AUC.

 

[maygog]

One must consider UWI when factoring match stats from caribbean islands.

 

[referee3]

this guy ^ does not think this is as funny.

Please tell us after the match how you have finially realized your mistake once you learn that you did not match anywhere.

And I'd look into Friday's. They have better fries than Applebee's.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

this guy ^ does not think this is as funny.

The punchline is coming on the 20th.

 

[the argus]

Please tell us after the match how you have finially realized your mistake once you learn that you did not match anywhere.

And I'd look into Friday's. They have better fries than Applebee's.

Why so much hate? Just cause I called him a douchebag? What he said was a pretty douchey thing to say after I wrote a polite, respectful, and honest reply to the OP.

I received >40 interview invites and went on 25 interviews. So I'm pretty confident I'll be fine. I'll be sure to let you know though!!

 

[jakeislove]

Why so much hate? Just cause I called him a douchebag? What he said was a pretty douchey thing to say after I wrote a polite, respectful, and honest reply to the OP.

I received >40 interview invites and went on 25 interviews. So I'm pretty confident I'll be fine. I'll be sure to let you know though!!

Best success in the match!

 

[Skip Intro]

1) DO Advantage = additional OMT training (why would I want less training?)

Why would you pay for (and suffer through) training that you are highly unlikely to ever use in the future in your practice?

-Skip

 

[deleted480308]

Why would you pay for (and suffer through) training that you are highly unlikely to ever use in the future in your practice?

-Skip

There is a point to this statement....the real DO advantage is not dealing with carrib attrition/match rates

 

[Baller MD]

Why would you pay for (and suffer through) training that you are highly unlikely to ever use in the future in your practice?

-Skip

You can bill for it if you have clinic.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

MOST of the time.. the folks who WENT the carib route and SUCCESSFULLY matched...

COULD HAVE MOST LIKELY received an acceptance to a US MD or US DO school and wouldn't have to work 1000000X harder for positions in either (most of the time) only FM, IM, PEDs, or PSYCH. But everybody has their reasons.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Hey
@the argus did you match? Hopefully you got good news man! been following your journey (as creepy as that sounds) and am rooting for ya!

 

[Supisak]

Hmmm, not to start another virtual urinating contest, but it is awefully quiet on "the argus" watch over here.....

Any news on the match?

 

[the argus]

Hey
@the argus did you match? Hopefully you got good news man! been following your journey (as creepy as that sounds) and am rooting for ya!

Hmmm, not to start another virtual urinating contest, but it is awefully quiet on "the argus" watch over here.....

Any news on the match?

Hey thanks for caring. Yes I matched, was pretty sure I would, but it's great to hear officially. Very excited to find out where on Friday.

 

[Supisak]

Well played, would not wish going unmatched on anyone, well maybe one or two classmates, but generally no...

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Also, @the argus

What field did you apply for? Is it true then that as an IMG, you will be mainly at either FM/IM, Obgyn, Psych, or Peds? Thanks and congrats once again sir! Also, what were your step scores if you don't mind me asking? I'm excited to tell my IMG friends about your success.

 

[the argus]

Also, @the argus

What field did you apply for? Is it true then that as an IMG, you will be mainly at either FM/IM, Obgyn, Psych, or Peds? Thanks and congrats once again sir! Also, what were your step scores if you don't mind me asking? I'm excited to tell my IMG friends about your success.

Thanks! ~220/~250/pass, all 1st attempt. only applied to categorical IM.

Yes those are the main specialities, except I would probably remove OBGYN from your list (OBGYN as a general rule, is one of the specialties where showing a genuine interest in the field is just as or more important than step scores/IMG status/etc).

IMGs still match (as of 2014) in other specialties in significant amounts (EM, gen surg, anesthesia, rads, neuro, path), but this is only for the top applicants and is highly variable. I know people in those specialties that had comparable step scores/GPA/etc, some of whom received 15 interviews, some received 1. You should absolutely not go abroad for medical school unless you will be happy in FM/IM/peds/psych.

If you do want to match into one of the more difficult specialties, your singular focus during clinical years needs to be getting good LORs and making relationships in the field. This means getting PDs or department chairs to know you and write meaningful letters, finding which programs take IMGs and doing audition rotations, research in the field, etc. (All this on top of doing great in all your 3rd/4th year clerkships!). Even the most competitive fields are possible, as 12 IMGs matched in ortho last year and 14 in derm, but these people are the exception not the rule.

 

[tracheatoedoc]

Definitely go DO...
an MD

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Why would you pay for (and suffer through) training that you are highly unlikely to ever use in the future in your practice?

-Skip

Some people like learning stuff that could potentially help people. Crazy idea I know. Also lots of stuff you learn you don't use. Some people use it some don't. I met people that use it. Depends on your speciality. Pm&r / family med / nmm guys use it.


Its also not suffering. Its one measley class that isn't difficult. Suffering would be living in an underdeveloped island.


Also OMM isn't pseudoscience. If more similar to chiropractic work then homeopathy.

 

[Kewell35]

One must consider UWI when factoring match stats from caribbean islands.

UWI students don't get in much. From the St. Augustine campus, only UF in Jacksonville has been taking them in the last couple of years.

 

[galactus]

No need to hate on DO's broseph.
DO == MD (source: see US medical licensing; if they weren't equal, why can they match with MD's??).
My co-chief during residency was a DO and he showed me some awesome OMM techniques that I use on my patients EVERY DAY. Granted I just learned the basic quick stuff, but there are courses that MD's can take to learn OMM. Luckily I had the honor of having DO's in my residency that I tried to learn some stuff during my time in training.

 

[chicagochildpsych]

As a Caribbean grad who is board certified in 2 specialties, I would recommend DO. The hassles are significant as an img. The only reason I didn't go DO was I didn't care for learning osteopathic techniques (as I personally think they are nonsense), and I didn't want to lie in my essay and pretend I actually wanted to be a DO (instead of having a 27 Mcat that kept me out of allopathic schools). Knowing what I know now...I would fake the interest in osteopathy.

 

[Skip Intro]

You can bill for it if you have clinic.

No need to hate on DO's broseph.
DO == MD (source: see US medical licensing; if they weren't equal, why can they match with MD's??).
My co-chief during residency was a DO and he showed me some awesome OMM techniques that I use on my patients EVERY DAY. Granted I just learned the basic quick stuff, but there are courses that MD's can take to learn OMM. Luckily I had the honor of having DO's in my residency that I tried to learn some stuff during my time in training.

1) You can only bill for it if you use it. As I stated, most DO grads these days will never use OMM when they are out in practice. For all intents and purposes, this training is superfluous.

2) No one is "hating" or disagreeing with you. OMM is simply not a routine part of most DO's practice. That is a fact.

-Skip

 

[FutureMDiA]

Do Caribbean schools lie about their residency match list?

 

[deleted480308]

Do Caribbean schools lie about their residency match list?

When they don't print the number of students that matriculated with that group

 

[FutureMDiA]

i don't see any caribbean school reporting the # of students matriculated in a particular year.

 

[gyngyn]

i don't see any caribbean school reporting the # of students matriculated in a particular year.

That would make it too easy to calculate the graduation rate.

 

[deleted480308]

i don't see any caribbean school reporting the # of students matriculated in a particular year.

If I owned an airline and could report only 14% of my passengers died in landing accidents, I would try not mention that another 25% died before the landing descent even started

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

If I owned an airline and could report only 14% of my passengers died in landing accidents, I would try not mention that another 25% died before the landing descent even started

This is a really dumb example, but yes. It is in the best interest of all companies to carefully select how they report their success.

That is not exclusive to caribbean schools though. All med schools do this in one way or another.

 

[deleted480308]

This is a really dumb example, but yes. It is in the best interest of all companies to carefully select how they report their success.

That is not exclusive to caribbean schools though. All med schools do this in one way or another.

But only the carribean needs to do so

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

But only the carribean needs to do so

Thats true.

I will say though that I rotated at a very well known university hospital that reserves 10+ prelim positions every year, and gives those positions to grads who don't match so that they can report a 100% match rate. This is a decently competitive US MD school.

 

[FutureMDiA]

If I owned an airline and could report only 14% of my passengers died in landing accidents, I would try not mention that another 25% died before the landing descent even started

Haha, true.

If I owned an airline and could report only 14% of my passengers died in landing accidents, I would try not mention that another 25% died before the landing descent even started

 

[gyngyn]

Thats true.

I will say though that I rotated at a very well known university hospital that reserves 10+ prelim positions every year, and gives those positions to grads who don't match so that they can report a 100% match rate. This is a decently competitive US MD school.

I'd say that is quite decent of them.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I'd say that is quite decent of them.

I worded that post pretty badly. It only gives those positions to graduates of its own medical school who didnt match elsewhere. Its really shady.

 

[gyngyn]

I worded that post pretty badly. It only gives those positions to graduates of its own medical school who didnt match elsewhere. Its really shady.

I still think that is quite generous of them. I wish I could count on a safety net like this for my grads! This might allow those whose reach exceeds their grasp to maintain their clinical skills without the humiliating experience of begging random PD's for identical prelim positions (elsewhere).

 

[Goro]

Mix into this equation that the residency spots garnered are lousy ones at that.

This school told me that their 70% graduation rate and a 4 year graduation rate is 60% and that their graduate residency placement rate is 85% (I am attaching a screenshot of that conversation). IF you multiply the 4 year number (60%) by residency percent (85%) you get 51% Which means IF I go to this school then only 51% of me & my classmates are going to be residents in 4 years (based on their information). 10% will graduate the following year (that will cost them one year attending salary $xxx,xxx if they get residency their first time trying) and 30% will not graduate at all.


If you're going to piss on the profession, you might want to tell the editors of New Engl J Med:
A Comparison of Osteopathic Spinal Manipulation with Standard Care for Patients with Low Back Pain
Gunnar B.J. Andersson, M.D., Ph.D., Tracy Lucente, M.P.H., Andrew M. Davis, M.D., M.P.H., Robert E. Kappler, D.O., James A. Lipton, D.O., and Sue Leurgans, Ph.D.
N Engl J Med 1999; 341:1426-1431

or the people at Sloan-Kettering:
http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/resources/osteopathic-manipulative-treatment-omt

or the people at BMC:
BMC Musculoskelet Disord. 2014 Aug 30;15:286. doi: 10.1186/1471-2474-15-286.
Osteopathic manipulative treatment for nonspecific low back pain: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
Franke H, Franke JD, Fryer G1.

I'll agree with you on cranial manipulation. If there's any therapeutic effect, it may be due to some other mechanism.
Because it is pseudoscience, on the same level of acupuncture, aromatherapy, homeopathy, etc. And before people start getting upset, I don't mean this as an insult. I know people who swear by acupuncture. I just don't think it belongs anywhere near anyone who wants to call themselves a physician.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

I don't see what's "shady" about it.

They are ensuring a safety net for their own graduates.

My med school's general surgery PD told all of us applying in general surgery that if we didn't match there was a prelim spot reserved for us. Not that it was going to happen, but it was nice to have the option.

Its just shady because on the front they publish that they have x number of positions, but only have the intention of filling some of them in the match to leave some for "SOAP"/only their students.

I dont know if it is explicitly contradicting to the "all-in policy" but I am certain that there is a reason they dont advertise this on their program website.

 

[22031 Alum]

Its just shady because on the front they publish that they have x number of positions, but only have the intention of filling some of them in the match to leave some for "SOAP"/only their students.

I dont know if it is explicitly contradicting to the "all-in policy" but I am certain that there is a reason they dont advertise this on their program website.

Well a prelim spot like those wouldn't be advertised as open. So it's not like a school says "We have 6 spots" but only fills 5 to save a spot. They say "We have 6 spots," fill 6, and open up a 7th for someone who needs it. Many programs (in specialties with prelim years) actually have the funding/capability to have a couple more intern spots than they match for every year, to use "as needed." You may still think it's shady, but it's not closing off an advertised spot as you described.

Edit: I can actually only say for sure that there are some OB programs with "extra" intern prelim spots. They are not categorical spots because while a prelim year could be fulfilled, the program's volume cannot accomodate an additional resident for all 4 years. I won't speak for IM or Surgery on that point.

 

[gyngyn]

Edit: I can actually only say for sure that there are some OB programs with "extra" intern prelim spots. They are not categorical spots because while a prelim year could be fulfilled, the program's volume cannot accomodate an additional resident for all 4 years. I won't speak for IM or Surgery on that point.

It's very similar. Some medicine prelims are approved in case a Neuro resident doesn't match in a medicine prelim, but not filled unless necessary...

 

[Mad Jack]

Sorry, I thought my response was kinda funny



I agree, and literally wrote the exact same thing in my first post,




My whole first post was dedicated to showing that if you make it through the big 4 caribbean schools (and that is a big if due to the significant attrition rates), students from these schools actually don't have a "very low" chance of matching. It's not as high as US graduates, but it's not as hopeless as you would think by reading these forums or looking at NRMP data reports without taking the time to understand what that data actually represents.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Yale and UofChicago. I certainly have never claimed that any caribbean grads have matched at the main programs for residency. That, quite frankly, would be ridiculous.

But this idea that caribbean grads only match at bad programs is patently false. Yes graduates mostly match in non-competitive specialties, but plenty of mid-tier residency programs take lots of caribbean grads every year.

And just because a program is community-based does not automatically make it a bad program. Unless you are specifically going into academic medicine (i.e. running a lab), working at a place that also has bench research really doesn't change your clinical experience. You can mostly do the same things coming from a community hospital as you can from a university hospital (unless you want to do bench research)

Again, I am not a "shill" for any caribbean medical school as I have been accused of being. Just trying to present an honest and realistic picture of caribbean medical education.

You forgot fellowships. Community residencies substantially hurt your chances of landing a fellowship.