A New Metric for Ranking Medical Schools: Student Happiness

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

Let's face it, there is a huge disconnect between USNWR rankings and the real medical student experience.

NIH funding numbers do not necessarily correlate with medical student research opportunities and long term career outcomes in primary care may not be the best way to determine school choice for the majority of students.

Among all the determinants that go into our upcoming med school decisions, everybody says "go where you will be the happiest". While this is a very subjective measure, holiday break has got me bored and I figured it would be interesting to put together a list of the schools I have interviewed at, ranked by my perception of student happiness.

I have taken into account methods for student assessment (ranked vs P/F), freedom in opportunities (research/clinical) and schedule, and conversations with med students prior to/on interview day.
Please feel free to post your ranked list!!!! If we have enough posts we could potentially make a more comprehensive list.
Again, this is all subjective.

1. CCLCM
P/F all years
Endless research/clinical opportunities at the clinic
Most flexible day to day schedule
Incredibly happy med students with low stress, every last one (free tuition could also impact this) awesome environment

2. Case
P/F M1-M2
Many r/c opportunities within school and at UH/CC
Slightly less flexible schedule than CCLCM, still lots of free time for self driven learning or EC's.
Least stressed med students of all schools, very happy students overall - great environment to learn.

3. Pitt
P/F M1-M2
Greatest number of diverse research opportunities of all schools so far, many clinical though seems less than cclcm.
Students spend LOTS of time in classes day to day, less time for research or clinical stuff M1-M2. However there is devoted time towards "scholarly project".
Despite less flexibility, every student had relatively low stress and loved the accessibility of UPMC.

4. Wright State
Grades and ranked (don't remember exact details)
Not many research opportunities, below average clinical opportunities. Least flexible schedule.
Easy going laid back culture, students spend most free time studying but it seems that there is little competition. Average happiness.

5. Cincinnati
P/F BUT ranked in quintiles (or quartiles?)
Lots of r/c opportunities with the UCCOM or Cincy Children's, however much less time to do them.
Less flexible schedule, not much time for research or EC's preclinical other than summer.
Students were relatively happy, some competition, but more stressed than above schools due to assessment method and less free time.

6. Wisconsin
Grades and ranked (again, details escape me)
Lots of research to be had, great clinical opportunities at UW Health
Average schedule, some flexibility.
The least happiest students. Maybe I had a bad group, but the M4 tour guide seemed jaded and the M2, when asked what he does in his free time, said "well, I am a med student, I don't have free time".
It does not seem like these students have time for anything other than school.


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[787593]

Let's face it, there is a huge disconnect between USNWR rankings and the real medical student experience.

NIH funding numbers do not necessarily correlate with medical student research opportunities and long term career outcomes in primary care may not be the best way to determine school choice for the majority of students.

Among all the determinants that go into our upcoming med school decisions, everybody says "go where you will be the happiest". While this is a very subjective measure, holiday break has got me bored and I figured it would be interesting to put together a list of the schools I have interviewed at, ranked by my perception of student happiness.

I have taken into account methods for student assessment (ranked vs P/F), freedom in opportunities (research/clinical) and schedule, and conversations with med students prior to/on interview day.
Please feel free to post your ranked list!!!! If we have enough posts we could potentially make a more comprehensive list.
Again, this is all subjective.

1. CCLCM
P/F all years
Endless research/clinical opportunities at the clinic
Most flexible day to day schedule
Incredibly happy med students with low stress, every last one (free tuition could also impact this) awesome environment

2. Case
P/F M1-M2
Many r/c opportunities within school and at UH/CC
Slightly less flexible schedule than CCLCM, still lots of free time for self driven learning or EC's.
Least stressed med students of all schools, very happy students overall - great environment to learn.

3. Pitt
P/F M1-M2
Greatest number of diverse research opportunities of all schools so far, many clinical though seems less than cclcm.
Students spend LOTS of time in classes day to day, less time for research or clinical stuff M1-M2. However there is devoted time towards "scholarly project".
Despite less flexibility, every student had relatively low stress and loved the accessibility of UPMC.

4. Wright State
Grades and ranked (don't remember exact details)
Not many research opportunities, below average clinical opportunities. Least flexible schedule.
Easy going laid back culture, students spend most free time studying but it seems that there is little competition. Average happiness.

5. Cincinnati
P/F BUT ranked in quintiles (or quartiles?)
Lots of r/c opportunities with the UCCOM or Cincy Children's, however much less time to do them.
Less flexible schedule, not much time for research or EC's preclinical other than summer.
Students were relatively happy, some competition, but more stressed than above schools due to assessment method and less free time.

6. Wisconsin
Grades and ranked (again, details escape me)
Lots of research to be had, great clinical opportunities at UW Health
Average schedule, some flexibility.
The least happiest students. Maybe I had a bad group, but the M4 tour guide seemed jaded and the M2, when asked what he does in his free time, said "well, I am a med student, I don't have free time".
It does not seem like these students have time for anything other than school.


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If USNWR ranked based on happiness, med schools would offer free beer...

Also, thanks for sharing this information

 

[MerYangBey]

I think the only way to really know if you would be happy at a school is to go there. Once you matriculate you'll pick up on all the annoying stuff you might have not even considered when you interviewed. What makes one student "happy" may make another student completely insane.
Having said that...
What would make me happy- is less annoying mandatory stuff, better lecture recordings, and more time for me to study in my PJs.

 

[sliceofbread136]

How anyone living in Cleveland could be happy is beyond me

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

me @ you

There is a reason he left for Miami....

 

[Lawpy]

Let's face it, there is a huge disconnect between USNWR rankings and the real medical student experience.

NIH funding numbers do not necessarily correlate with medical student research opportunities and long term career outcomes in primary care may not be the best way to determine school choice for the majority of students.

Among all the determinants that go into our upcoming med school decisions, everybody says "go where you will be the happiest". While this is a very subjective measure, holiday break has got me bored and I figured it would be interesting to put together a list of the schools I have interviewed at, ranked by my perception of student happiness.

I have taken into account methods for student assessment (ranked vs P/F), freedom in opportunities (research/clinical) and schedule, and conversations with med students prior to/on interview day.
Please feel free to post your ranked list!!!! If we have enough posts we could potentially make a more comprehensive list.
Again, this is all subjective.

1. CCLCM
P/F all years
Endless research/clinical opportunities at the clinic
Most flexible day to day schedule
Incredibly happy med students with low stress, every last one (free tuition could also impact this) awesome environment

2. Case
P/F M1-M2
Many r/c opportunities within school and at UH/CC
Slightly less flexible schedule than CCLCM, still lots of free time for self driven learning or EC's.
Least stressed med students of all schools, very happy students overall - great environment to learn.

3. Pitt
P/F M1-M2
Greatest number of diverse research opportunities of all schools so far, many clinical though seems less than cclcm.
Students spend LOTS of time in classes day to day, less time for research or clinical stuff M1-M2. However there is devoted time towards "scholarly project".
Despite less flexibility, every student had relatively low stress and loved the accessibility of UPMC.

4. Wright State
Grades and ranked (don't remember exact details)
Not many research opportunities, below average clinical opportunities. Least flexible schedule.
Easy going laid back culture, students spend most free time studying but it seems that there is little competition. Average happiness.

5. Cincinnati
P/F BUT ranked in quintiles (or quartiles?)
Lots of r/c opportunities with the UCCOM or Cincy Children's, however much less time to do them.
Less flexible schedule, not much time for research or EC's preclinical other than summer.
Students were relatively happy, some competition, but more stressed than above schools due to assessment method and less free time.

6. Wisconsin
Grades and ranked (again, details escape me)
Lots of research to be had, great clinical opportunities at UW Health
Average schedule, some flexibility.
The least happiest students. Maybe I had a bad group, but the M4 tour guide seemed jaded and the M2, when asked what he does in his free time, said "well, I am a med student, I don't have free time".
It does not seem like these students have time for anything other than school.


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Conjecture: student happiness is directly associated with preclinical grading system. Meaning that unranked P/F preclinical grading = less stress about grades = more time to focus on things you like = more relaxed and excited = favors cooperative and collaborative settings = increased overall happiness

Unranked P/F >> ranked P/F (it's deceptive) >> graded preclinicals

And so the medical schools with the highest happiness scores are those with unranked P/F preclinical grading

Just my $0.02

 

[7331poas]

Conjecture: student happiness is directly associated with preclinical grading system. Meaning that unranked P/F preclinical grading = less stress about grades = more time to focus on things you like = more relaxed and excited = favors cooperative and collaborative settings = increased overall happiness

Unranked P/F >> ranked P/F (it's deceptive) >> graded preclinicals

And so the medical schools with the highest happiness scores are those with unranked P/F preclinical grading

Just my $0.02

Conjecture. Student happiness is directly associated with their prospects of matching their desired residency. Meaning top schools make happier students.


What is the point of these threads. Who gives a crap is ECU students are "happy"? Is that what we are going for? Happy?

 

[Lawpy]

Conjecture. Student happiness is directly associated with their prospects of matching their desired residency. Meaning top schools make happier students.


What is the point of these threads. Who gives a crap is ECU students are "happy"? Is that what we are going for? Happy?

Student happiness can be associated with a positive environment (i.e. cooperative over competitive). No one wants to spend 4 years at a school where everyone is stressed out, hypercompetitive and neurotic. And school policy can affect and shape school environment.

 

[7331poas]

Student happiness can be associated with a positive environment (i.e. cooperative over competitive). No one wants to spend 4 years at a school where everyone is stressed out, hypercompetitive and neurotic. And school policy can affect and shape school environment.

No. No one wants to spend 4 years at a school where they arent going to match at their desired program. Full stop

 

[Lawpy]

No. No one wants to spend 4 years at a school where they arent going to match at their desired program. Full stop

Except medical school rarely prevents someone from matching at their desired program. Successful matching depends on the medical student themselves.

 

[7331poas]

Except medical school rarely prevents someone from matching at their desired program. Successful matching depends on the medical student themselves.

Its just a coincidence that top programs are filled with top medical schools?

https://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/

No "lower tier" medical students wanted to match IM at UCSF?

Disclaimer: I only looked up this program and nothing else.

 

[Lawpy]

Its just a coincidence that top programs are filled with top medical schools?

https://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/

No "lower tier" medical students wanted to match IM at UCSF?

Disclaimer: I only looked up this program and nothing else.

So reading and discussing about match lists for a program of a specialty will lead to no where since there are too many factors involved. Getting into a good specialty at a good program involves many critical factors such as strong board scores, strong clinical letters, productive research etc.

Yeah getting into a top med school will help in residency matches but that by itself doesn't carry the applicants far if they are subpar everywhere else. But a happy and cooperative student environment is absolutely critical for optimal success because such an environment shapes the motivation to be productive. It's difficult to get the positive drive in a hypercompetitive atmosphere where classmates are panicking about fractions of a point to get honors over pass in graded preclinical years.

But it's no surprise that the schools that have unranked P/F preclinical gradings are usually top schools, which incidentally are better positioned to send their students at the more competitive specialties due to inherently having better resources to help their students. In the end, it depends on the student themselves to match at a program they want, so a good student environment definitely matters.

 

[RogueBanana]

Conjecture. Student happiness is directly associated with their prospects of matching their desired residency. Meaning top schools make happier students.


What is the point of these threads. Who gives a crap is ECU students are "happy"? Is that what we are going for? Happy?

Conjecture. I have never broken a bone. Therefore I am boneless.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

me @ you

Lol watching lebron play reminds me of what an amazing player he is but also of what a poor sport he is. I love me some KD

 

[Lannister]

How anyone living in Cleveland could be happy is beyond me

They grow up there and don't realize how awful it is because they have nothing to compare it to. It's quite sad.


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[aldol16]

How anyone living in Cleveland could be happy is beyond me

They're happy because they're attending med school for free. Being in Cleveland is incidental. Not going 200k into debt > spending 5 years in Cleveland.

 

[NickNaylor]

The problem is that "happiness" tends to be a very intrinsic thing. Sure, you can help foster and grow it, but going to a certain program with certain characteristics does not, by any means, guarantee that you will be "happy." I know people that have been to programs that lack some of the things that you might think contribute to happiness that are miserable and vice versa.

The best way to get a sense of this is to simply talk with current students. After you've been on a few interviews and have a few data points, you will be able to figure out the relative spectrum of "happiness" and start putting programs on that spectrum. The other thing to consider is that what makes you happy may not make me happy. Relying in others' evaluations is somewhat pointless because they aren't you. There might be things that you find important that others don't. There might be specific things about a particular program that will make you happy that are unimportant to others.

 

[piii]

"Hey everyone look at the schools I interviewed at"

 

[Frogger27]

How anyone living in Cleveland could be happy is beyond me

Guessing you've never been to Cleveland, it is actually a great city.

I have lived in other Ohio cities as well as east coast cities, and I love me some Cleveland

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

"Hey everyone look at the schools I interviewed at"

Ok, that's not what this was meant to be. I wanted more people to post so we could have some collective feedback on how people measure the student experience at schools they have visited. I think that is meaningful.
My ego is not associated with my SDN username I can assure you.

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[BadNewsBears2016]

Not to be a Negative Nancy, but a metric like "happiness" has too much going on to ever have objective value.

I also believe AMSA had a student survey for a while, but I can't find it now. The complaint was that the data was incomplete and that there wasn't a way to verify that people who completed the survey actually went to the school they reviewed.

We're just going to have to stick to the primitive way of doing things and use personal opinions ascertained from interview days. There's not much way around that.

 

[Lannister]

They're happy because they're attending med school for free. Being in Cleveland is incidental. Not going 200k into debt > spending 5 years in Cleveland.

Not to insult people who like Cleveland, obviously different people like different things, but honestly I probably would not move back to Cleveland for any amount of money. That might just be because my experience in undergrad was so awful that I hate the city by association.

 

[sharkbyte]

I think it's also important to keep in mind that an interview is not a 100% accurate representation of what the school is like. On interview days, most schools will obviously trumpet up their curriculum and opportunities and whatnot in an effort to sell the school to you, and at pretty much every school I interviewed at, the students more or less said the same things, that they liked their school and their classmates and didn't have much to complain about, even though I had very different opinions of these schools in terms of which ones I liked and didn't like. Also, you're only spending, what, 6-8 hours there at most?

It's not until you actually become a student at a school that you learn everything about what the school has to offer and its advantages/disadvantages.

Great idea to get this started, though!

 

[sliceofbread136]

Guessing you've never been to Cleveland, it is actually a great city.

I have lived in other Ohio cities as well as east coast cities, and I love me some Cleveland

I have never been you are right. Probably never will, but cincinatti and Columbus seemed ok

 

[Frogger27]

I have never been you are right. Probably never will, but cincinatti and Columbus seemed ok

I rank them Columbus> Cleveland> Cinci.. I'm a little bias though, but all underrated cities IMO

 

[Lannister]

I rank them Columbus> Cleveland> Cinci.. I'm a little bias though, but all underrated cities IMO

Haha it's interesting how different our experiences have been. I'd rank them Cinci>Columbus>Cleveland. I can't really say much about Columbus though, I've only been there once. I guess my personality fits Cincinnati much more than Cleveland, they're super different cities.

 

[787593]

Haha it's interesting how different our experiences have been. I'd rank them Cinci>Columbus>Cleveland. I can't really say much about Columbus though, I've only been there once. I guess my personality fits Cincinnati much more than Cleveland, they're super different cities.

Cincinnati is a great place to drink...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

me @ you

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

Cincinnati is a great place to drink...

It definitely Cinci>Cleveland>Columbus


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[saveourpens]

Let's face it, there is a huge disconnect between USNWR rankings and the real medical student experience.


3. Pitt
P/F M1-M2
Greatest number of diverse research opportunities of all schools so far, many clinical though seems less than cclcm.
Students spend LOTS of time in classes day to day, less time for research or clinical stuff M1-M2. However there is devoted time towards "scholarly project".
Despite less flexibility, every student had relatively low stress and loved the accessibility of UPMC.

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I'm not sure how it is at other places but, as an MS4, I wouldn't characterize the first two years as lots of class time (certainly, it can be if thats what you want). Unless I'd have to go to a PBL session (these are required), I'd usually wake up at the crack of 10-11 am, read the syllabus and listen to lecture podcasts at 1.8X speed. I'd say during any given lecture we'd have 30-40 people out of a class of 160+.

I think a place like Cleveland Clinic may give their students more research time but there is simply more than enough time to do research at Pitt.

Tough to judge a med school's happiness on interview day. I can tell you Pitt is a happy bunch.

 

[sharkbyte]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but how about that Blue Jackets 13 game winning streak though..

 

[SunsFun]

Don't judge the school by the students you meet on the interview day.

I am willing to bet class by class variability in student body is as high as school by school variability. Not to mention how unrepresentative the people doing these interview activities are with regards to their respective classmates.


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[Lannister]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but how about that Blue Jackets 13 game winning streak though..

WOW, I haven't been following hockey as much as I used to since I started med school, didn't realize the Blue Jackets were doing so well!

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

I'm not sure how it is at other places but, as an MS4, I wouldn't characterize the first two years as lots of class time (certainly, it can be if thats what you want). Unless I'd have to go to a PBL session (these are required), I'd usually wake up at the crack of 10-11 am, read the syllabus and listen to lecture podcasts at 1.8X speed. I'd say during any given lecture we'd have 30-40 people out of a class of 160+.

I think a place like Cleveland Clinic may give their students more research time but there is simply more than enough time to do research at Pitt.

Tough to judge a med school's happiness on interview day. I can tell you Pitt is a happy bunch.

Thanks for the input! Good to know


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[Fluffy123]

I'd usually wake up at the crack of 10-11 am

This had me chuckling