Stanford, Columbia, Penn Medical Schools Expand the Exodus From U.S. News Ranking

[srirachamayonnaise]

Wouldn't that benefit them, then? People are going to assume Brown Medical School, by the name alone, is a top 20.

US News will keep ranking every school no matter what. It’s not like you need a consent from a company or a school or an individual to rank them. I really don’t see any change at all. All US News has to do is modify their methodologies to rely on information obtainable from a third party or voluntarily disclosed by the school on their website.

It’s such a dumb stunt. Come March, a new set of ranking will come out and when some schools see their ranking drop so much, they will **** their pants. HMS will still be ranked No.1 with or without their active participation.

Most administrators have zero insight. All they see is what others are doing.

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[Tenk]

Sweet, gonna be a graduate from a T20 school in no time at this rate.

 

[Med Ed]

US News will keep ranking every school no matter what. It’s not like you need a consent from a company or a school or an individual to rank them. I really don’t see any change at all. All US News has to do is modify their methodologies to rely on information obtainable from a third party or voluntarily disclosed by the school on their website.

It’s such a dumb stunt. Come March, a new set of ranking will come out and when some schools see their ranking drop so much, they will **** their pants. HMS will still be ranked No.1 with or without their active participation.

Most administrators have zero insight. All they see is what others are doing.

You eight days ago:

"I think HMS completely miscalculated, thinking a lot of other top schools would follow the suit, like law schools. But no, no one has followed and I don't think anyone would at this point. So now, they literally gained nothing by doing this stunt and they certainly can't walk back on that. So come in March, you will find HMS info by scrolling down and down a lot till you hit unranked schools. TBH, this is a giant dumb move by HMS. They are sitting pretty as the most desired med school, why change that?"

 

[Med Ed]

The USNWR rankings have been a naked emperor for a long time. They have held sway because of perception (read mass psychosis) rather than any intrinsic value. As long as schools were willing to play along, perception alone was sufficient to keep them going.

USNWR can continue to generate rankings using publicly available data, but with so many high ranking schools renouncing and formally withdrawing from them, the spell is likely broken.

 

[Lawpy]

The USNWR rankings have been a naked emperor for a long time. They have held sway because of perception (read mass psychosis) rather than any intrinsic value. As long as schools were willing to play along, perception alone was sufficient to keep them going.

USNWR can continue to generate rankings using publicly available data, but with so many high ranking schools renouncing and formally withdrawing from them, the spell is likely broken.

It feels really weird to me that all other top schools are only withdrawing from USNWR because HMS started it

Harvard leads and the rest follows

 

[deleted1119806]

you could say HMS followed YLS+a bunch of other law schools

and it also seems weird to me that HMS found its moral compass after decades of sitting atop the rankings due to their own "gaming" of the system; every other top medical school shifted around spots except one, which tells us HMS had no problem with a third party (with seemingly faulty methods and perverse intensions for the future of medicine) advertising them as the best from the start

 

[Lawpy]

you could say HMS followed YLS+a bunch of other law schools

and it also seems weird to me that HMS found its moral compass after decades of sitting atop the rankings due to their own "gaming" of the system; every other top medical school shifted around spots except one, which tells us HMS had no problem with a third party (with seemingly faulty methods and perverse intensions for the future of medicine) advertising them as the best from the start

But every top med school knew law schools were withdrawing from USNWR and didn’t bother

It was only when HMS withdrew, the rest followed

And thus this settles the countless prestige fights on SDN

Top med schools wouldn’t have withdrawn from USNWR if HMS didn’t take the lead.

 

[LizzyM]

 

[Lawpy]

and it also seems weird to me that HMS found its moral compass after decades of sitting atop the rankings due to their own "gaming" of the system; every other top medical school shifted around spots except one, which tells us HMS had no problem with a third party (with seemingly faulty methods and perverse intensions for the future of medicine) advertising them as the best from the start

Oh and i agree with this. This was definitely a power move by HMS to all other top schools and USNWR. The morality and “fake wokeness” are a distraction. Harvard obviously benefitted heavily from the rankings but the HMS dean knew and followed closely the events of the law schools that were unfolding (which btw was another power move made by Yale and Harvard Law Schools)

So HMS wanted to make a point that USNWR depended on them much more than they depend or even care about the rankings.

And thus they withdrew

And a week later, other top schools loyally followed the Harvard Way, leaving USNWR in chaos

It’s a pretty effective power move by HMS

 

[NITRAS]

HMS, Her Majesty’s Ship.

Ugh, I read too much history.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

But every top med school knew law schools were withdrawing from USNWR and didn’t bother

It was only when HMS withdrew, the rest followed

And thus this settles the countless prestige fights on SDN

Top med schools wouldn’t have withdrawn from USNWR if HMS didn’t take the lead.

except the true peers of HMS, Hopkins and UCSF haven’t moved.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Oh and i agree with this. This was definitely a power move by HMS to all other top schools and USNWR. The morality and “fake wokeness” are a distraction. Harvard obviously benefitted heavily from the rankings but the HMS dean knew and followed closely the events of the law schools that were unfolding (which btw was another power move made by Yale and Harvard Law Schools)

So HMS wanted to make a point that USNWR depended on them much more than they depend or even care about the rankings.

And thus they withdrew

And a week later, other top schools loyally followed the Harvard Way, leaving USNWR in chaos

It’s a pretty effective power move by HMS

But why? What do they gain out of this? It’s a symbiosis between US News and Harvard and Yale. So it’s to me not a power move but a strife. Likely US News wants HMS and YLS to cough up more private data so that the magazine can sell their rankings for more money or whatnot, and HMS just doesn’t want to share it. Don’t forget this: in this country, it all comes down to money.

 

[Lawpy]

except the true peers of HMS, Hopkins and UCSF haven’t moved.

Yet. Also i’m guessing you acknowledge Stanford and Penn aren’t true peers of HMS, which countless med students and attendings will fight to the death over.

But why? What do they gain out of this? It’s a symbiosis between US News and Harvard and Yale. So it’s to me not a power move but a strife. Likely US News wants HMS and YLS to cough up more private data so that the magazine can sell their rankings for more money or whatnot, and HMS just doesn’t want to share it. Don’t forget this: in this country, it all comes down to money.

To show that USNWR depends far more on HMS and YLS?

There was zero obligation for so many law schools to follow YLS lead and so many top med schools to follow HMS lead. By doing so, they effectively showed who is really powerful here. It’s an ego thing, and HMS and YLS have resoundingly defeated US News.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Yet. Also i’m guessing you acknowledge Stanford and Penn aren’t true peers of HMS, which countless med students and attendings will fight to the death over.


To show that USNWR depends far more on HMS and YLS?

There was zero obligation for so many law schools to follow YLS lead and so many top med schools to follow HMS lead. By doing so, they effectively showed who is really powerful here. It’s an ego thing, and HMS and YLS have resoundingly defeated US News.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Whether US News can keep charging people for rankings not based on proprietary data is the litmus test here. I suspect premeds and pre-laws will still refer to the rankings as long as they exist. I don’t think USNews needs any of those schools. US News just needs those schools to exist so it can rank them and sell their subscription.

 

[Lawpy]

I think the proof is in the pudding. Whether US News can keep charging people for rankings not based on proprietary data is the litmus test here. I suspect premeds and pre-laws will still refer to the rankings as long as they exist. I don’t think USNews needs any of those schools. US News just needs those schools to exist so it can rank them and sell their subscription.

Yeah i don’t agree with this. US News relies heavily on HMS, YLS and all other elite schools that abandoned the rankings. They’re forced to do anything to bring them back to remain relevant. The deans of those schools have far more power that US News cares a lot. Premeds and prelaws really aren’t relevant in this

See

U.S. News & World Report to Revamp Parts of Its Law-School Ranking

The publication will put less weight on reputation surveys and make other changes in the wake of public rebukes by top-ranked schools.

www.wsj.com

U.S. News says it will revamp its law-school ranking system after listening tour

Meetings were held with more than 100 law-school administrators after Yale and other institutions threatened a boycott of the magazine's ranking process.

www.marketwatch.com

U.S. News said its rankings team held meetings with more than 100 deans and other law-school administrators in recent weeks. They embarked on the listening tour after Yale Law School—perennially ranked at No. 1—said it would no longer provide information to help U.S. News compile its list.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

I guess I go to a T10 school now, ahahahaha

On a serious note, USNWR can go cry a river 🙂

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Yeah i don’t agree with this. US News relies heavily on HMS, YLS and all other elite schools that abandoned the rankings. They’re forced to do anything to bring them back to remain relevant. The deans of those schools have far more power that US News cares a lot. Premeds and prelaws really aren’t relevant in this

See

U.S. News & World Report to Revamp Parts of Its Law-School Ranking

The publication will put less weight on reputation surveys and make other changes in the wake of public rebukes by top-ranked schools.

www.wsj.com

U.S. News says it will revamp its law-school ranking system after listening tour

Meetings were held with more than 100 law-school administrators after Yale and other institutions threatened a boycott of the magazine's ranking process.

www.marketwatch.com

U.S. News said its rankings team held meetings with more than 100 deans and other law-school administrators in recent weeks. They embarked on the listening tour after Yale Law School—perennially ranked at No. 1—said it would no longer provide information to help U.S. News compile its list.

Seriously, US News only cares about selling its magazine and nothing else. If people want to read the rankings based on how many pet dogs each student brings onto the campus, I am sure they would be more than happy to oblige. It’s so stupid that the ranked wants to tell the rankers what they want to be ranked on. Zero objectivity.

This game is fixed by both those schools and US News. This theatrics is nothing, but theatrics. It’s a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Lawpy]

Seriously, US News only cares about selling its magazine and nothing else. If people want to read the rankings based on how many pet dogs each student brings onto the campus, I am sure they would be more than happy to oblige. It’s so stupid that the ranked wants to tell the rankers what they want to be ranked on. Zero objectivity.

Then why would US News panic, go on a listening tour and work to overhaul their methodology?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Yet. Also i’m guessing you acknowledge Stanford and Penn aren’t true peers of HMS, which countless med students and attendings will fight to the death over.


To show that USNWR depends far more on HMS and YLS?

There was zero obligation for so many law schools to follow YLS lead and so many top med schools to follow HMS lead. By doing so, they effectively showed who is really powerful here. It’s an ego thing, and HMS and YLS have resoundingly defeated US News.

Tell that to all those law firms. When Wachtell raised starting salaries, everyone else followed the suit immediately. It’s the legal world. I worked in it and lived in it for quite a while. Everyone in law follows Yale and Wachtell.

 

[Lawpy]

Tell that to all those law firms. When Wachtell raised starting salaries, everyone else followed the suit immediately. It’s the legal world. I worked in it and lived in it for quite a while. Everyone in law follows Yale and Wachtell.

But… why are med schools following the legal model?

Like HMS just latched onto reasoning from Harvard Law School dean, so why are other top med schools following HMS’s lead?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Then why would US News panic, go on a listening tour and work to overhaul their methodology?

The point is that it’s a show for all of us to see, that is between two parties whose interests are completely aligned. Law schools get to show how woke they are and US News show they are so concerned about the educational goals.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

But… why are med schools following the legal model?

Like HMS just latched onto reasoning from Harvard Law School dean, so why are other top med schools following HMS’s lead?

Because what not to like when you can virtue signal the **** out of it and US News gets all the publicity and show how much they care about students lol.

 

[Lawpy]

The point is that it’s a show for all of us to see, that is between two parties whose interests are completely aligned. Law schools get to show how woke they are and US News show they are so concerned about the educational goals.

So that means US News actually cares about the top law and med schools if they’re willing to put on a show.

Which is the point. The reason why US News has any credibility to begin with is it latches onto familiar notions of what’s top vs non top. People aren’t going to take US News seriously if they see HMS, Stanford, Penn unranked while a mid tier suddenly being T20.

 

[Lawpy]

Personally, i think it’d be better if US News rankings just die for good, and we focus only on residency PD rankings going forward

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

So that means US News actually cares about the top law and med schools if they’re willing to put on a show.

Which is the point. The reason why US News has any credibility to begin with is it latches onto familiar notions of what’s top vs non top. People aren’t going to take US News seriously if they see HMS, Stanford, Penn unranked while a mid tier suddenly being T20.

But that’s almost true with all the other rankings… Yale and Harvard top every academic ranking. US News has the monopoly on rankings because they have so much money to advertise and schools just love it. Free advertisement. But in the meantime, they don’t want to appear too cozy with US News to be accused of being in bed with a money maker on their prestige, and hence the whole drama here. Trust me, US News will still come out with their world famous rankings in March and by then, all eyes will be on where each school lands, unless US News cares to asterisk schools that purportedly withdrew.

US News is not stupid enough to not rank those top schools. It will keep ranking them with a new “methodology” (the R&D cost of which is practically zero lol) so what really changes after those schools “withdrew?” Nothing at all. The top schools are still gonna be the tops and US News lives on.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Personally, i think it’d be better if US News rankings just die for good, and we focus only on residency PD rankings going forward

Rankings should be done without any monetary incentives. Money spoils everything.

 

[senecca]

But why? What do they gain out of this? It’s a symbiosis between US News and Harvard and Yale. So it’s to me not a power move but a strife. Likely US News wants HMS and YLS to cough up more private data so that the magazine can sell their rankings for more money or whatnot, and HMS just doesn’t want to share it. Don’t forget this: in this country, it all comes down to money.

I believe that this is a coordinated move by the top medical schools for their own benefit. They either see a potential danger to their ranking in the near future or don’t want to disclose certain metrics anymore fearing legal lawsuits or both. I also don’t buy the theory that other top medical school just follow HMS because everyone has a mountain size ego in America. My gut feeling is that the stats especially MCAT are going to be thrown completely out of the window and this is just a precursor to it. Let’s see.

 

[Med Ed]

Then why would US News panic, go on a listening tour and work to overhaul their methodology?

In reference to the college rankings (emphasis added):

With these factors, it's easy to guess who's going to end up on top: Harvard, Yale and Princeton round out the first three essentially every year. In fact, when asked how he knew his system was sound, Mel Elfin, the rankings' founder, often answered that he knew it because those three schools always landed on top. When a new lead statistician, Amy Graham, changed the formula in 1999 to what she considered more statistically valid, the California Institute of Technology jumped to first place. Ms. Graham soon left, and a slightly modified system pushed Princeton back to No. 1 the next year.

The whole thing is a house of cards.

 

[Med Ed]

Like HMS just latched onto reasoning from Harvard Law School dean, so why are other top med schools following HMS’s lead?

Because the so-called top schools have always had a love-hate relationship with the rankings. And, as the song says, it's a thin line between love and hate.

There are so many comparisons that work here. Like the prisoner's dilemma. Or the three little pigs, who showed us that you shouldn't build your rankings from straw or sticks.

Or John Paul Getty: "If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

 

[LizzyM]

Here's my take on it: this is not about the rankings. It's about publishing, on one's website and/or in USNews, the median MCAT and GPA and then being required to justify why so many applicants with MCATs and GPA above the median aren't offered admission while some applicants well below are admitted and how such decisions are a form of discrimination that should be deemed unconstitutional. Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law when they make admission decisions that appear to favor some less academically strong applicants over those with stellar academic credentials understanding that the academic metrics are only one factor out of many that go into admission decisions in law and medicine.

 

[alwaysrunning]

Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law

Do you think MSAR dropping MCAT and GPA data is next?

 

[Med Ed]

Here's my take on it: this is not about the rankings. It's about publishing, on one's website and/or in USNews, the median MCAT and GPA and then being required to justify why so many applicants with MCATs and GPA above the median aren't offered admission while some applicants well below are offered admitted and how such decisions are a form of discrimination that should be deemed unconstitutional. Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law when they make admission decisions that appear to favor some less academically strong applicants over those with stellar academic credentials understanding that the academic metrics are only one factor out of many that go into admission decisions in law and medicine.

Admissions will become somewhat like obscenity: we can't define what makes an applicant desirable, but we know it when we see it.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[LizzyM]

AAMC will do what ever is in the best interest of its members and this is surely on the agenda for the Deans of the 120+ medical schools in the US, particularly after the Supreme Court decisions come down later this year. If that includes scrubbing objective measures from MSAR, so be it. We use to have Table 25 which showed admission to any medical school in a grid by GPA range and MCAT range and broken out by racial group. That's long gone.

 

[deleted1139416]

Admissions will become somewhat like obscenity: we can't define what makes an applicant desirable, but we know it when we see it.

This is why we can't have nice things.

AAMC will do what ever is in the best interest of its members and this is surely on the agenda for the Deans of the 120+ medical schools in the US, particularly after the Supreme Court decisions come down later this year. If that includes scrubbing objective measures from MSAR, so be it. We use to have Table 25 which showed admission to any medical school in a grid by GPA range and MCAT range and broken out by racial group. That's long gone.

Going to a DO school has given me so much perspective. Going into medicine is very simple - you just love science and love talking to and helping people. But as humans it is in our nature to make things much more messy and complicated than they need to be.

 

[senecca]

Here's my take on it: this is not about the rankings. It's about publishing, on one's website and/or in USNews, the median MCAT and GPA and then being required to justify why so many applicants with MCATs and GPA above the median aren't offered admission while some applicants well below are admitted and how such decisions are a form of discrimination that should be deemed unconstitutional. Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law when they make admission decisions that appear to favor some less academically strong applicants over those with stellar academic credentials understanding that the academic metrics are only one factor out of many that go into admission decisions in law and medicine.

“Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law” … Exactly. This is exactly my thought. AAMC will be pressured to remove mcat and gpa from MSAR.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Just switch the admissions to a lottery.

 

[deleted1119806]

Add hoppy hop hopkins

 

[Lawpy]

Add hoppy hop hopkins

except the true peers of HMS, Hopkins and UCSF haven’t moved.

Well that was quick

UCSF, it’s up to you now

 

[Mr.Smile12]

“Schools are positioning themselves now to do away with any objective measures that might be used against them in a court of law” … Exactly. This is exactly my thought. AAMC will be pressured to remove mcat and gpa from MSAR.

I'm not sure about removing GPA, but removing the MCAT is going to be tough to remove unless schools actually WON'T look at MCAT scores. The PCAT is getting discontinued partly because fewer schools were using it, and I don't see medical schools going there. There's too much research arguing for its validity combined with GPA.

What I'm not sure is how much this shifts into early admissions and articulation tracks. Pipeline and mentoring programs could be worried that (example) the Saturday morning pre-medical programs with a minority professional organization could go away with the SC decision. I think those could be listed in the MSAR too.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm not sure about removing GPA, but removing the MCAT is going to be tough to remove unless schools actually WON'T look at MCAT scores. The PCAT is getting discontinued partly because fewer schools were using it, and I don't see medical schools going there. There's too much research arguing for its validity combined with GPA.

i did not take from @LizzyM that schools will abandon metrics (no admissions committee would stand for that). Rather they will further obfuscate how they use metrics, even to the point of not publishing averages or percentiles of admitted students.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

i did not take from @LizzyM that schools will abandon metrics (no admissions committee would stand for that). Rather they will further obfuscate how they use metrics, even to the point of not publishing averages or percentiles of admitted students.

I think that just having midrange (or similar) statistics would suffice as opposed to listing an average. I think that is how college admissions went, though I may stand corrected. That said, let's see what the SC will have us do with reporting any consequential objective information.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Pretty soon everything (Grades, MCAT etc.) will be P/F so schools can protect themselves from the negative ruling from Supreme Court and continue holistic admissions

 

[TheKingfish]

Michigan just officially withdrew

 

[LizzyM]

I think that the flaws in the ranking system were brought home by the jump that NYU experienced after getting NIH funding to replace its freezer farms in the wake of Superstorm Sandy. How did that big influx of "research money" in any way make the school better than it had been a year earlier or in any way benefit students?

It has always been a way of selling magazines or online access to information.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Michigan just officially withdrew

Who cares at this point, the publicity stunt is over.

 

[LizzyM]

Who cares at this point, the publicity stunt is over.

The Wall Street Journal cared enough to devote a third of its OP-ED page today to the topic.

 

[filmfan10]

I think that the flaws in the ranking system were brought home by the jump that NYU experienced after getting NIH funding to replace its freezer farms in the wake of Superstorm Sandy. How did that big influx of "research money" in any way make the school better than it had been a year earlier or in any way benefit students?

It has always been a way of selling magazines or online access to information.

Is it possible that a big factor for the schools abandoning the rankings could be the impending Supreme Court Affirmative action decision.

During the Supreme Court Affirmative action hearings, the judges seemed intent on banning Affirmative action.

I do think that, for better or for worse, Affirmative action will be outlawed by the Supreme Court. I think this will have seismic effects on the American education system. I think colleges will greatly change over the next few years

 

[deleted1139416]

I think that the flaws in the ranking system were brought home by the jump that NYU experienced after getting NIH funding to replace its freezer farms in the wake of Superstorm Sandy. How did that big influx of "research money" in any way make the school better than it had been a year earlier or in any way benefit students?

It has always been a way of selling magazines or online access to information.

I think everyone always knew it was a problem…

 

[Lawpy]

The Wall Street Journal cared enough to devote a third of its OP-ED page today to the topic.

It’s a pretty garbage article that panders to far right readers tbh.

 

[LizzyM]

It’s a pretty garbage article that panders to far right readers tbh.

Agreed. I saw it there at the bottom of the page and found it interesting. Note that the closing paragraph points out, "...being a good doctor is more complicated that a test score. Softer skills, such as empathy, listening and relationship-building, matter." But it suggests that abandoning intellectual rigor could be deadly.

I don't believe that any school wants to admit students who lack the ability and drive to do the work. It's just that once you've achieved a specific benchmark, there isn't much added value to exceeding it. If I wanted individuals who could jump over a 1 meter wall, among a series of traits, would I be foolish to choose only the highest jumpers and would it be wrong to snub people who have achieved long jumps of 4 meters or more while selecting some who cleared the 1 meter wall but just barely?