A PCOM med student without integrity

[smc927]

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I interviewed at PCOM this week. A second year student gave us a tour of the campus. During part of the tour he asked one of the interviewees what area of medicine he was interested in. The interviewee responded that he wasn't yet sure. The 2nd yr student then said something along these lines:

"When I interviewed I told them I wanted to go into family practice. D.O. schools are big on that, it helps you get in. I didn't really want to but they didn't know that. Besides, they don't have any way of enforcing it."

This is the kind of person I do NOT want to be my doctor - the kind that will say whatever it takes to get what he wants.

**** Let me add, after 50 replies to my original post, that I have no doubt this student is qualified to be at PCOM. I am sure he has many wonderful attributes and shining qualities. This post does was not meant to demean PCOM, which is a great school in many respects. The post is an observation and expression of an experience I had that was sincerely disappointing. ****

 

[DD214_DOC]

This is the kind of person I do NOT want to be my doctor - the kind that will say whatever it takes to get what he wants.

This is pretty common dude, and is part of playing the game. I think if you try to be yourself and be honest, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Give them what they want and you'll get in.

 

[smc927]

This is pretty common dude, and is part of playing the game. I think if you try to be yourself and be honest, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Give them what they want and you'll get in.

I disagree. I was completely honest and was accepted. It is surely appropriate to focus on what pertains most to the school, process, etc, during such an interview but only insofar as it is honest. Bending your standards - bending the truth - to get what you want is simply manipulation (and not the OMT kind) and is dishonest, disingenuous, and really just a lie. We can take the truth and build ourselves on it. We'll end up much stronger and much more unique for it. And in the end I have no doubt it'll lead to much more success and, importantly, peace of mind.

 

[mshheaddoc]

not saying its right ... but with any "position" if you know what they want to hear ... then you will play the game. That is the game of life sadly. Yes honesty is a virtue but then ... maybe if you know what they (the ad coms) want and portray it ... you get in .... i agree with others ... its a generalization. People are of all walks of life.

 

[no-see-um]

To the original poster, who are you to start judging people's integrity just because something didn't sound sugarcoated and nice enough for your emotional taste buds?

Let's be frank here, (if that doesn't hurt your feelings, then of course). There is nothing pure about the medical school admissions process. The odds are always against the individual student and always in favor of the committees. Although I would not do it for myself, I believe that if someone wants to portray him or herself as a part of the herd, you have my blessing...

With that said, I did exactly the opposite, and was myself at a school that is very big on primary care and OMM, and I still got in. I talked about wanting to do specialties that are not the specialty du jour over there for their students, and I still got in. I guess it is because I was who I was.

But when you're talking about specialties, no one really knows where they're eventually going to end up in the future, and so much of it is based on competition and algorithms and letters of recommendation that it could eventually be beyond your control. The question itself is rather moot at this point in the process, so it's not quite a lie or a truth either way. How could one say that I was truthful whereas that guy was not? For all we know, he ends up doing family practice (a twisted turn of events!), and I end up doing family practice (Does that mean, I lied? Surely not).

As for real questions, such as, "Why did you do poorly in class X?". TELL THE TRUTH! And tell it as it is.

 

[dr.z]

Whether its right or wrong I really don't know. However, you will find the kind of people you met at PCOM anywhere. That's how some people are. Not much anyone can do about it.

 

[no-see-um]

Whether its right or wrong I really don't know. However, you will find the kind of people you met at PCOM anywhere. That's how some people are. Not much anyone can do about it.

Right. To run to a website and post that there is "A med student without integrity", if anything, characterizes the original poster a lot more than that medical student and especially that school. As, like you said, there are people like that all over and at many schools. To single out one school and one person shows a naivety. And although it could be a beautiful thing to be naive, when it comes to medicine, you have to be aware of your surroundings. You're in for a rude awakening in medicine, and I question whether most things out there in life will not end up irking you... Spare yourself a world of pain, if possible. Or do something useful and specify "pain management" as your perspective specialty, OP.

 

[OrthoFixation]

I told PCOM GA (and all others) the truth about my inclinations and was accepted. I will probably lean towards specialization, but that is just consistent with my skill set. My DO interviewers had the attitude that Primary Care training was a needed foundation that the houses of specialization would be built upon.

Realistically, you will likely change your area of interest many times. I honestly stated that I wanted to keep all doors open until becoming well informed enough to make a educated decision. The more we learn, the more we realize what we don't know. I was originally set on orthopedics, but even limited clinical exposure has taught me many areas are personally compatible.

 

[docbill]

Saying what people want to hear is part of life. Imagine if we were are honest... and always told people what we thought.. that would lead to a big blow up everyday.

The student did not lie to you. S/he told you the truth.

Most people don't figure out what they want to do till they are doing 3rd or 4 th year.
That is when they get access to different specialties.

 

[JohnDO]

To the original poster, who are you to start judging people's integrity just because something didn't sound sugarcoated and nice enough for your emotional taste buds?

It's quite easy to judge someone's integrity, especially when they tell you about it.

To run to a website and post that there is "A med student without integrity", if anything, characterizes the original poster a lot more than that medical student and especially that school.

Indeed, it does. The original poster expects honesty and integrity from a future physician. That's all it characterizes him by. Is that too much to ask for? Is that something to chastize him for?

To single out one school and one person shows a naivety. And although it could be a beautiful thing to be naive, when it comes to medicine, you have to be aware of your surroundings.

Thanks for the life lesson. He gave a specific example, and then said, "This is the kind of person I do NOT want to be my doctor - the kind that will say whatever it takes to get what he wants". It is clear by his statement that he realizes there is a general class of people who will lie to get what they want. He did not say "Hey I found the only one in the world and he goes to PCOM".

As for real questions, such as, "Why did you do poorly in class X?". TELL THE TRUTH! And tell it as it is.

Why? Why not "play the game"?


I do find it quite troubling that the original poster has been called naive and over-sensitive for expecting honesty and integrity from future physicians. I expect the same thing.

 

[no-see-um]

It's quite easy to judge someone's integrity, especially when they tell you about it.

Maybe so, but it surely shows a lack of integrity to raise the issue on a message board rather than directly to that student or committee in talking behind the student's back and to implicate a school in doing so. Why not stand up for what you believe in? One who chooses this easy way out, has minimal integrity in my honest opinion.

He did not say "Hey I found the only one in the world and he goes to PCOM".

The title of his thread sure reads that way. Sorry, but I am not a fan of witch-hunts and I could not accept, nor indulge your assumption that this poster knows or could even accept for that matter, that there are many "liars" out there in medicine without having to single them out one by one on a messageboard.

Who are you to judge that the OP is not motivated by a holier-than-thou game at another's honest expense? Perhaps the original poster may be mistaken as well, who is to say that he does not have his own deceptive motivations in such a topic, or just simply misunderstood that student's point. We'll never know because he chose to come here, and it is pretty skeevy since no one could vouch one way or another.

Why? Why not "play the game"? Telling the truth only in certain situations isn't integrity.

I knew some pea brain would interpret it that way. Congrats for being the first. I, like many other people who have posted on this thread so far consider the actual question of what specialty someone wishes to go into, when posed in one's interviewing year, to be almost farcicial itself because there is so much room for change and, (to one-up you on the honesty bit) until being exposed to medicine could one truly make that choice. That renders the question, when used for screening purposes, to be game-like. Hence, I have already posted about it being a moot point.

Questions about reality, which I was referring to, such as grades, work experience, or life experiences, are questions that are not game-like. These are real questions where one ought to tell the truth. Notice, that I am not arguing in the previous paragraph that 'one ought not to be truthful', because it is game-like and the question that was posed was not one that could not easily assess nor indicate a truth value.

I do find it quite troubling that the original poster has been called naive and over-sensitive for expecting honesty and integrity from future physicians. I expect the same thing.

No, I didn't call him that for expecting honesty and integrity from physicians. Indeed, I will publically commend him for that. I have recently started a campaign to bring more integrity to the practice of medicine my local community. And there needs to be more, not less, integrity in medicine. It is naive though to categorize what specialty a student wishes to go into as a ( prospective )newcomer in the field with greater issues of physician integrity such as professional misconduct- is quite a stretch. You're on quite a slippery slope there, JohnDO...

 

[JohnDO]

Maybe so, but it surely shows a lack of integrity to raise the issue on a message board rather than directly to that student or committee in talking behind the student's back and to implicate a school in doing so.

How does that show a lack of integrity? The only issue he raised is that he doesn't want that quality in a physician. He didn't give any names, so he wasn't talking behind anyone's back. No one knows who he is talking about, and I strongly doubt he was trying to implicate a school.

Sorry, but I am not a fan of witch-hunts and I could not accept, nor indulge your assumption that this poster knows or could even accept for that matter, that there are many "liars" out there in medicine without having to single them out one by one.

If you wish to believe him naive, so be it. Besides, it gives you something to rant about. He cited a specific example, which is not uncommon while making a point.

I knew some pea brain would interpret it that way. Congrats for being the first.

Thank you for your kind acknowledgement.

I...consider the actual question of what specialty someone wishes to go into...to be almost farcicial itself because there is so much room for change and, (to one-up you on the honesty bit) until being exposed to medicine could one truly make that choice.

You're not an admissions committee. I doubt they asked because they felt it was farcical. They're not asking for a sworm committment, they're asking about what you're interested in right now. If it is so trivial and "game-like", as you assert, then why lie about it?

These are real questions where one ought to tell the truth.

I agree that the question is trivial, but integrity is blind to triviality. As Emerson once said, "If you can not find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?"

Questions about reality, which I was referring to, such as grades, work experience, or life experiences, are questions that are not game-like...Notice, that I am not arguing in the previous paragraph that 'one ought not to be truthful', because it is game-like and is not indicative of a truth.

Maybe the admissions committee should be let in on the secret. I'm not sure what to make of your argument. On one hand, I found it quite laughable and, in your words, farcical. On the other hand, I feel you are quite serious and thus I feel it necessary to respond.

I do not fully understand the criteria with which you judge a question to be game-like, especially in the ambiguity of the described situation. Perhaps you can bestow upon me the ability to discern whether or not questions admissions committees ask are, in fact, game-like in nature, or serious in nature. It really would save me the trouble of telling the truth throughout the interview. It seems that you have determined that the question cannot be valid, because no one really knows, and thus it is not necessary to be truthful. I would counter that you are being quite naive yourself by assuming the admissions committee does not fully understand that candidates will often change their minds. With this in mind, I doubt any admissions committee would phrase the question to imply that the candidate is bound to his response. I was asked the question twice, and in both cases they asked what I was presently interested in, not what speciality I was "most certainly going into". Furthermore, the fact that a candidate may change his mind does does not absolve him of the responsibility to tell the truth as he understands it in the present. In your attempt to trivialize the question, you seem to have ignored the fact that the question may be important to schools who strive to produce primary care physicians.

No, I didn't call him that for expecting honesty and integrity from physicians. Indeed, I will publically commend him for that.

Thank you.

You're on quite a slippery slope there...

Expecting integrity with the small things is not placing one's self on a slippery sloap.

 

[no-see-um]

Expecting integrity with the small things is not placing one's self on a slippery sloap.

Since we're playing the good old integrity game,

How about a tour guide who takes its interviewees into its gross anatomy lab? If anything, one could argue that there is a lack of integrity in that, as those bodies that weren't even covered, were not donated to be on display, but they were donated to the school to use to teach its students.

But, then one could argue that there were mild reasons for doing such a thing, and that it is perfectly fine to do. Whereas, the tour guide who says that it's good to say that you want to do primary care, is the tour guide who has little integrity, versus the other one I just described? When people put themselves out there, you're bound to find faults, and it's easy to judge and nitpick at the smallest things from the ivory tower, but medicine's not about that. Have fun going into a field like emergency medicine where in many instances of injury you could possibly laugh at the person and judge the patient as a *****, because that is all you see of them. If you can't get beyond those kinds of things, then that says a lot about you.

(You spelled slope wrong. In the spirit on this thread, would it not be fair to say that it shows a lack of integrity as well? And would that not be such a wrong thing to say? But wait, couldn't one look and say that, "If he does not care enough to check his spelling and edit his posts, couldn't he then be a risk in medicine? Couldn't he then spell a medicine wrong on a prescription and screw up on a patient? Does not "sloap" look too much like "soap", despite sounding like slope?)

 

[JohnDO]

If anything, one could argue that there is a lack of integrity in that...[bodies] were not donated to be on display

No you can't. The bodies are not being used as displays. If they were, then it would be a problem. Just because they are visible doesn't mean that they are being used as displays.

When people put themselves out there, you're bound to find faults, and it's easy to judge and nitpick at the smallest things from the ivory tower, but medicine's not about that. Have fun going into a field like emergency medicine where in many instances of injury you could possibly laugh at the person and judge the patient as a *****, because that is all you see. If you can't get beyond those kinds of things, then that says a lot about you.

Thanks for another life lesson. I long for the insight you have.

(You spelled slope wrong)

Thanks. You spelled farcical wrong, but I didn't find it particularly relevant to point it out.

You spelled slope wrong. In the spirit on this thread, would it not be fair to say that it shows a lack of integrity as well?

No.



I'm still waiting on your criteria for identifying game-like questions.

 

[no-see-um]

And the bodies weren't being used as displays? Oh, well, what was that tour of the lab about then? I could be sure that I saw a few uncovered, deceased people. Interesting answer you gave there... 🙄

I'm still waiting on your criteria for identifying game-like questions.

First name your favorite 3 people who you would like to have dinner with. The guy before you just answered Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Mother Theresa, and FDR.

Beat that, hotshot!

 

[JohnDO]

And the bodies weren't being used as displays? Oh, well, what was that tour of the lab about then? I could be sure that I saw a few uncovered, deceased people. Interesting answer you gave there...

No, they were being used as teaching instruments. They just happened to be uncovered. The purpose of the bodies has not changed. It's a horrid analogy and you know it.

First name your favorite 3 people who you would like to have dinner with.

Indeed, this is a game-like question, but that does not absolve the responsibility to answer as truthfully as possible. The question is not without purpose: it is intended to characterize the applicant and assess what the applicant is interested in. Granted, the committee cannot assess whether or not I'm telling the truth.

The question of speciality is also not without purpose, especially to a school who emphasizes primary care (as many osteopathic schools do).

Anything other than the truth serves to paint a picture of an applicant you are not.

I must bow out of this thread for now. I do not see any value in refuting the ridiculous analogies and conclusions you might draw from my premises (such as mis-spelling compromises my integrity). They speak for themselves.

 

[ornis4]

If you're so easily offended and would use such criteria in selecting or avoiding a certain physician, I'm not sure you'd ever find a physician that suited your moral standards. There are thousands of doctors with much uglier skeletons in their closets than one trying to bend to truth to kiss some behind during an interview. In fact, I'm sure there are thousands of people each year who may "bend" a few items on their applications..extracurriculars, research, volunteering, etc...just to make it look a little better to a committee.
And while we're on this path, what about legacies? Is there any integrity in asking whether or not a candidate knows or is connected to anyone at a particular school? What bearing should that have on the decision about one's merits as a possible physician? It doesn't have any bearing on your qualifications...but if you knew someone at a particular school, you'd sure as hell mention it because you know it could get you ahead of others. By the same token, why do interviewers repeatedly ask questions they're not supposed to...such as "what other schools are you looking at?" etc.? If interviewers ask one of those questions, do you answer? Are you automatically turned off to that school because you believe it lacks integrity? I bet if they were the only school to accept you you'd probably overlook that little lapse in integrity. And that's why it's a game.

That tour guide did something that MANY others have certainly done over the years...the decision to mention it to a tour group was questionable at best. But to judge the integrity and character of that person based on one comment is absurd. I bet you we all have gone to a physician at some point in our lives who, if we really knew some of the things he/she had done, we never would have gone to him/her. That tour guide could go on to be one of the nation's best surgeons, and if your life is in jeopardy, I would hope you'd re-evaluate your position based on that person's professional qualifications, not on a comment they made on a tour as a 20-something year old student.

 

[JohnDO]

If you're so easily offended and would use such criteria in selecting or avoiding a certain physician, I'm not sure you'd ever find a physician that suited your moral standards.

The problem is this: How can I expect a physician who lied about his so-called trivial interest in a specialty to tell the truth when more serious issues arise that affect the lives of other people. If he can't tell the truth to an admissions committee about what specialty he wants to go into, then how will he ever must the courage to tell the truth about what happened in front of a incident review panel?

 

[hotlikebutter]

wow, some of you guys are making leaps and bounds about people's behavior. saying that you want to enter FP and lying infront of a incidence review board are way different!

to the OP, are you really that suprised?! if you are, then you are certainly naive. i am not saying I dont share your opinion on this, but certainly youve met people like this before.

doctors/med students are not all highly moral people. doctors represent a cross section of society, and society has its flaws.

doctor leaves his patient on the surgical bed to deposit at the bank
doctor charged with selling higher positions on the organ waiting list
doctor charged with child molestation
etc etc

this is reality, sad one, but reality. not all is perfect, especially in medicine.
i am really an optimist, but to ignore the facts is ignorance.

but dont worry, when i take over the world as benevolent dictator, i will employ fMRI lie detectors during med school interviews. i will also hook up a shock probe that will deliver shock to the nucleus accumbens and prefrontal cortex which will hopefully erase their motivation and plans to become a doctor.
😀

 

[DOctorJay]

Bottom line. Do what you're comfortable with and don't worry about anyone else.

You'll be able to figure out who has integrity and who doesn't and you'll be able to show how you feel by referring patients to those physicians you see as true professionals.

Anything else is a waste of your time.

-J

 

[medic170]

I have to agree with you JohnDO

 

[smc927]

not saying its right ... but with any "position" if you know what they want to hear ... then you will play the game. That is the game of life sadly. Yes honesty is a virtue but then ... maybe if you know what they (the ad coms) want and portray it ... you get in .... i agree with others ... its a generalization. People are of all walks of life.

I agree, playing the system can work to one's advantage. You are right about that one - no doubt.

 

[smc927]

To the original poster, who are you to start judging people's integrity just because something didn't sound sugarcoated and nice enough for your emotional taste buds?

I guess you could look at it that way. But isn't it reasonable to come to some conclusion about a person's integrity when he openly says he lied to get into medical school?

Let's be frank here, (if that doesn't hurt your feelings, then of course).

You make some very good points, but why the petty sarcasm?

With that said, I did exactly the opposite, and was myself at a school that is very big on primary care and OMM, and I still got in. I talked about wanting to do specialties that are not the specialty du jour over there for their students, and I still got in. I guess it is because I was who I was.

I'm very glad to hear that.

How could one say that I was truthful whereas that guy was not? For all we know, he ends up doing family practice (a twisted turn of events!), and I end up doing family practice (Does that mean, I lied? Surely not).

Yes, but he knew when he said it he didn't intend to go into any family practice.

 

[smc927]

Whether its right or wrong I really don't know. However, you will find the kind of people you met at PCOM anywhere. That's how some people are. Not much anyone can do about it.

I didn't mean to say PCOM or the PCOM students are different (better/worse) than anywhere else, just citing my particular experience. I have absolutely no doubt it is the same anywhere.

 

[DD214_DOC]

It's pretty simple. Adcoms reward people who give them what they want with an acceptance. People who are, "themselves" take a gamble at the interviews..

 

[smc927]

Right. To run to a website and post that there is "A med student without integrity", if anything, characterizes the original poster a lot more than that medical student

How so?

To single out one school and one person shows a naivety.

Again, what reasoning leads you to say this?

You're in for a rude awakening in medicine, and I question whether most things out there in life will not end up irking you... Spare yourself a world of pain, if possible. Or do something useful and specify "pain management" as your perspective specialty, OP.

The fact that I see and disagree with dishonesty in no way speaks of my experience or graps of reality. I am not a traditional young student. I have been in the work force and other areas of the real world. I see dishonesty everywhere, and I always disagree with it.

 

[smc927]

Saying what people want to hear is part of life. Imagine if we were are honest... and always told people what we thought.. that would lead to a big blow up everyday.

Yes, but there is a difference between exercising tact by no speaking your mind at every turn and replying honestly when directly questioned.

Most people don't figure out what they want to do till they are doing 3rd or 4 th year.
That is when they get access to different specialties.

It didn't and doesn't matter to me if this particular student were to change his mind in the future. But he felt certain at the time he was questioned he would not do family medicine and based his answer on his perspective at the time.

 

[smc927]

The title of his thread sure reads that way.

Yes, the thread could be titled better. Although you expressed your unhappiness with the fact that I'd raise the point in an online message forum it seems appropriate to me. It is a place for discussion (and we're having quite a lively one!) and is meant to make a point, not to point fingers and this particular student.

 

[docbill]

Yes, but there is a difference between exercising tact by no speaking your mind at every turn and replying honestly when directly questioned.



It didn't and doesn't matter to me if this particular student were to change his mind in the future. But he felt certain at the time he was questioned he would not do family medicine and based his answer on his perspective at the time.

I told adcom the truth. I said it would be no use for me to become a FP... I would contribute more to the field as a speciallist. Perticularly in Cardiovascular disease. If I did not have graduate degrees.. I would go in to what ever I like durring rotation.

Overall you try to make a good story of your situation. And if you can back your plan up reasonably you should have no trouble.

 

[PublicEnemy]

the reality of the situation vs the ideal we would like to see from people.

i can't go as far as to say we can expect certain things the way some of you guys have.

how many people apply to osteopathic medical schools in addition to allopathic medical schools? so, if the question comes up during your interview, "why DO?" is it a lack of integrity to not flat out say "oh its just a backup" or "because my stats aren't good enoug for MD" that may be the reality, and most likely is for the large number of applicants that apply to both osteo and allo. sure, you could argue the pros of being a DO all day, but if the topic of did you apply to allo schools never comes up, is it a lack of integrity to not tell them and tell them you'd choose any of the 119 us allo schools over them? its more an issue of tact, and being tactical.

i don't think some of you are realizing just how much the AOA and the individual emphasize or reward primary care.

Here's a quote from the first line of the AOA pamplhet entitled "What is a D.O," that every DO school hands out : "Osteopathic medical schools emphasize training students to be primary care physicians"

Here's a quote from the UMDNJ-SOM pamphlet, I received similar ones from UNECOM, and PCOM -"The curriculum provides comprehensive instruction in the basic and clinical sciences emphasizing the primary care of the patient"
we all know, DO's go into anything and everything and its more than encouraged, but this is still a reality that osteopathic medicine as a whole takes pride in.

for my interview at UNECOM an actual question i was asked: " So PublicEnemy, after seeing the campus and the location here, would you be willing to do primary care in a rural environment." hmmm, they asked, would you be willing, not do you want to, or are you interested in. would you be willing to do it if it meant you could be a doctor, sure, absolutely. you could make a claim that we're judging integrity based on slight differences in phrasings. if we're doing that, then i would like to submit that adcoms will incontrovertibly prefer someone who is willing to do anything and everything to become a doctor, without questioning integrity, because thats a measure of how badly the applicant wants it. you can say thats a flaw in the system, but its the system.

at the very least, adcoms like to know that you are aware of this. when you are interviewing they like to hear that you know you're set up well for primary care by going DO, and that you're at least informed of that. because the AOA and the DO schools relentlessly claim that DO's are trained to be "more complete or more comprehensively trained primary care physicians"

in fact i've spoken to many adcom members at several schools. the interview is not just an individual assesment, largely its just another hurdle. im telling you, admissions officers will even tell you or recomend you say or phrase things in certain ways. in a very twisted way. saying you're interested in primary care at the interview is almost like a rite of passage , you're acknowledging that you've done some background research about osteopathic medicine, and they know you're telling them that because they know you know its what they want to hear. and ironically they want that, adcoms want to know that you know and say exactly what adcoms want to hear. because again, it means you are genuinely interested enough to have sought out some info.

listen, DO schools and adcoms are not stupid, they know what the deal is. they know a lot of applicants are applying to them as backups or because applicants know they're more accepting of non-trads etc. and a lot of those things are mutually understood and not delved into.

this is medicine. its largely an apprenticeship. sure there 2 years of intense basic sciences training. but so much of what you learn, and actual doctoring, is done through an apprenticeship, watching, being guided etc. the entire profession is steeped with tradition, from pre-med, med school to residency and practice, each step has certain hurdles and obstacles, a lot of them are just based on tradition.

all of that being said, i don't think anyone needs to be truly insincere. there are ways to acknowledge that you are genuinely interested or appreciate primary care without out flat out lying and saying "i swear by this AOA pamphlet I will be an FP."

albert einstein once said "when telling the truth, leave elegance to the tailor". let it be noted, i would never question einstein outside of the context of a medical school interview. but i think interviews are all about delicately or elegantly saying the truth.

 

[no-see-um]

I agree, completely...

 

[DD214_DOC]

By the way, what exactly is considered, "primary care"? I know family practice is, but I have also heard it includes EM, psych, and some other stuff.

Regardless, saying I was interested in primary care (even though I sorta am) didn't work for me. 😀

 

[PublicEnemy]

Technically I think its: FP, IM, OB/GYN, Peds

some people consider EM, and Gen Surg. to be primary care as well.

 

[Nate]

EM may be primary care because of the screwed up system but it is not intended to be. As for general surgery, I have never heard that and how could it be? People do not just stop by a surgeon's office and say "okay, I need an operation", they have to see a generalist first who will tell them that they may need surgery. Psych however, is considered primary care by some and rightly so. A lot of times for the Psych patient the Psychiatrist is the only physician that they see.

 

[PublicEnemy]

yeah i don't agree with gen surg being primary care either, but i've heard it tossed around, typically only because a lot of community based residency programs that have mostly have true primary care spots also have general surgery spots, but thats just cause of need.

 

[EMTLizzy]

for my interview at UNECOM an actual question i was asked: " So PublicEnemy, after seeing the campus and the location here, would you be willing to do primary care in a rural environment."

When I interviewed at WVSOM, they asked me where I would like the eventually work. I knew they were big on rural medicine, but I didn't want to lie and say I intended to move my entire life and family to WV forever. So I said, "East of the Mississippi." There's lots of rural places in that general geographic area.

I do find it amusing when we're asked that question, though. UMDNJ in Newark doesn't ask "So, do you promise to practice ghetto medicine after graduating from here?"

My interest is in Infectious Disease, but I've been saying IM at interviews. It isn't a lie since I have to do IM to get to ID anyway. And some ID doocs working in hospitals do IM but with ID consults.

 

[Static Line]

Regardless, saying I was interested in primary care (even though I sorta am) didn't work for me. 😀

Adcoms are not stupid. Saying what they want to hear is not the icing on the cake, it doesn't cement the interview for you. It’s case by case for everyone. My experience with different interviewers is this: they want to know what drives you into medicine. Naturally DO schools want to know "why Osteopathic medicine?" It is fair to say that they do want to detect a little sincerity in you when you answer them. I don't know you, therefore, I do not know what drives you, however, from reading some of the different posts you've written, you sound like you you've tried this or that, like you've done some magic trick to get in. You can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time.

I have no research time, I can't stand the lab environment. I don't have a strong MCAT, in fact, it is pretty weak. From the numbers point of view or if you consider academic experience with research, I am not all that. However, where the rubber meets the road I stand decent enough on my own two feet. I do have a strong GPA and 10 years experience as a paramedic. I also have a sincere desire to minister to people in the form of medicine, and the adcoms do pick up on that.

Ultimately, the adcoms want to know two things:

1-can you handle an academic lifestyle and make it through med school? ( I think working 40+ hours a week, maintaining a family, house, and job with my GPA proves I can handle it even though I stunk at the MCAT).

2- What is your motivation to study medicine and deal with peoples lives?

Everything else they ask is fluff. It’s obvious that we can tell that you want to be a physician, but you have to prove it to the adcoms. Do some soul searching and answer this stuff honestly, not just what they want to hear (though that is also important), and you will do good on your interviews.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I'm sure many times adcoms already have a preliminary decision about someone. I was never asked, "why osteopathic medicine". I was asked what I was interested in, and I was honest -- I told them I was interested in different things and open to just about anything at this point. I was asked where I wanted to practice. That's the extent of the medical-related questions I was ever asked.

In fact, I don't recall even being asked a medical-related question at the VCOM interview, as well as no chances to explain some of the weaknesses in my application. Hell, none of my interviewers even took notes, except for the last guy, whom I caught jotting random gibberish on the paper. Tell me a decision wasn't already made before I walked through the door.

I don't think the interview counts as much as people like to think. If you have good numbers, as long as you don't come across as a sociopath you will probably get in somewhere. With less-than-stellar numbers, you're probably doomed from the beginning unless you float into the interview room with an aura of light about you.

When a school has to choose only 250 out of 350 interviewees, more than likely the people with the lower numbers are going to get the shaft -- unless they somehow stand out from the crowd as some magnificent person. In fact, I'm willing to bet certain "reach" applicants are selected just to fill the rejection gap.

 

[my alias]

To the OP ... the student that gave you the tour was obviously trying to relate to the level of anxiety you were feeling as interviewee's, and trying to make you feel more comfortable. Isn't that the kind of person you you want as a doctor?

 

[smc927]

To the OP ... the student that gave you the tour was obviously trying to relate to the level of anxiety you were feeling as interviewee's, and trying to make you feel more comfortable. Isn't that the kind of person you you want as a doctor?

Overall he was very kind, encouraging and friendly. I was just disappointed in his casual conversation about lying to the admissions people.

 

[Ypo.]

I don't think it makes that big of a difference to the adcoms what specialty you are interested in. I know a lot of people who have lied, but I think it was unnecessary.

IMO what matters is that you have a well-reasoned answer for why you want to attend the school-ie-how it will help you reach your specific goals, why you applied there. There aren't any schools who have 100% of their graduates going into primary care...there has always got to be room for those who want to pursue specialties. Besides, they ask that question knowing that you could feel radically different in four years.

 

[smc927]

I don't think it makes that big of a difference to the adcoms what specialty you are interested in. I know a lot of people who have lied, but I think it was unnecessary.

IMO what matters is that you have a well-reasoned answer for why you want to attend the school-ie-how it will help you reach your specific goals, why you applied there. There aren't any schools who have 100% of their graduates going into primary care...there has always got to be room for those who want to pursue specialties. Besides, they ask that question knowing that you could feel radically different in four years.

Well said!

 

[medic170]

I'm sure many times adcoms already have a preliminary decision about someone. I was never asked, "why osteopathic medicine". I was asked what I was interested in, and I was honest -- I told them I was interested in different things and open to just about anything at this point. I was asked where I wanted to practice. That's the extent of the medical-related questions I was ever asked.

In fact, I don't recall even being asked a medical-related question at the VCOM interview, as well as no chances to explain some of the weaknesses in my application. Hell, none of my interviewers even took notes, except for the last guy, whom I caught jotting random gibberish on the paper. Tell me a decision wasn't already made before I walked through the door.

I don't think the interview counts as much as people like to think. If you have good numbers, as long as you don't come across as a sociopath you will probably get in somewhere. With less-than-stellar numbers, you're probably doomed from the beginning unless you float into the interview room with an aura of light about you.

When a school has to choose only 250 out of 350 interviewees, more than likely the people with the lower numbers are going to get the shaft -- unless they somehow stand out from the crowd as some magnificent person. In fact, I'm willing to bet certain "reach" applicants are selected just to fill the rejection gap.

Most schools interview like 500-600 for 100-200 spots, so the interview does indeed count quite a bit.

 

[PublicEnemy]

exactly. and if the school interviews a very small number, as some schools do, you could argue that the interview is even more important, because they have only chosen to interview students who they feel are statistically worthy of acceptance. i seriously doubt any school takes the time to interview students they have no intention of accepting. towards the later part of the interview season, some schools may continue to interview students exclusively for waitlists, but thats different. having a really bad interview may in fact be the only way to not get an acceptance in some cases, once you get to that point, particularly in the earlier months. the dean of umdnj-som told us that last year less than 300 people were interviewed for the 97 spots in the class, of those only 11 or 12 people were actually rejected. the rest were either accepted or wait-listed.

 

[Pitt Panther]

I can't sit by and watch this anymore. The student in question is one of the most kind hearted and sincere people that I know not to mention near the top of the class. To see this person publically branded like this is a complete pharse. The amount of social work and dedcation that this person has towards medicine is unparamount. You would be well served to have this person as a colleague. I'm not condoning what was said during the interview but isnt the interview basically "toliet training at gun point?" We all say things in the heat of the moment and to call this person a liar based upon that brief moment is a joke. So can we please put this name calling and finger pointing to rest? None of us, as future physicians, have the room to judge ANYONE. Keep that in mind.

Best of luck to all during this application cycle and warmest wishes during the holiday season.

PS I have no ill intention towards anyone in this post.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I can't sit by and watch this anymore. The student in question is one of the most kind hearted and sincere people that I know not to mention near the top of the class. To see this person publically branded like this is a complete pharse. The amount of social work and dedcation that this person has towards medicine is unparamount. You would be well served to have this person as a colleague. I'm not condoning what was said during the interview but isnt the interview basically "toliet training at gun point?" We all say things in the heat of the moment and to call this person a liar based upon that brief moment is a joke. So can we please put this name calling and finger pointing to rest? None of us, as future physicians, have the room to judge ANYONE. Keep that in mind.

Best of luck to all during this application cycle and warmest wishes during the holiday season.

PS I have no ill intention towards anyone in this post.

hey, who's name calling? scroll up a few posts, maybe a couple pages. read some other threads.

i think you're making a serious mistake in judgement. and i don't think its fair for you to preach as you have done so while maintaining such a cynical view of your peers and future colleagues, and what you think their tone is or what their intentions are.

 

[Pitt Panther]

hey, who's name calling? scroll up a few posts, maybe a couple pages. read some other threads.

i think you're making a serious mistake in judgement. and i don't think its fair for you to preach as you have done so while maintaining such a cynical view of your peers and future colleagues, and what you think their tone is or what their intentions are.

My post was not referring to yours (PE) but thanks for the input.

 

[PublicEnemy]

i apologize pitt, i'm a little edgy today.

actually you're absolutely right. the entire premise of this thread is a farce. i agree with that, and i even posted something to that extent earlier.

sorry about that.

 

[Pitt Panther]

i apologize pitt, i'm a little edgy today.

actually you're absolutely right. the entire premise of this thread is a farce. i agree with that, and i even posted something to that extent earlier.

sorry about that.

That's alright PE just next time, try the decaf! LOL.

 

[kahoo99]

I've seen this post up for some days now, and it seems strange to me that there has been so much debate. Of course in stressfull situations, or in situations with high stakes, people may choose to forgo their morals for the greater good of getting what they want. What I find alarming is how many people have come to the defense of this, with the rationale that this is a serious game, and it's best to know the rules (i.e. that DO schools want to produce GPers) and use them to your advantage. But telling people what they want to hear when the stakes are high rather than the truth I think is a very dangerous trait for a doctor to have or rationalize, or for all the people who have come to his defense, to believe that this is a one time thing. People who are willing to take short cuts in stressfull situations often repeat this behavior. My 2cents