A PhD in Biomed before an MD?

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Drjohnjohn

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Traditional MD/PhD programs are a bit tricky in admissions. :confused:

I have always had a passion for understanding the science of life and everything around me and I am thinking research is a good venue for it. The problem is, I love shadowing physicians and having actual interactions with people, something that will be lacking in a biomedical laboratory.

If I had two of me, I would pick up an MD to take care of patients to satisfy my humanitarian interest, while the other side of me would research topics that are close to heart like cardiovascular disease.

Would there be harm in obtaining a PhD and researching for a few years, then go to medical school and obtain an MD. I would think this would allow me to research and care for patients in the field of cardiology.

My life is confusing, please help :(

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As a MD you can do research. Doing a PhD ( 5-7 years average) will honestly wipe you out. There is no reason for you do get a PhD unless your main goal is academic medicine or research in a specific niche. A MD will suffice your research goals and clinical goals.
 
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I don't really agree with this. If you're in no rush to get to the MD part of your education and have a strong interested in lab research, there's no reason you shouldn't get a PhD first. Why not go for it if you love the lab research and would be happy in a PhD program. I've considered doing the same thing since I also am not competitive for MD/PhD admission. Just keep in mind that life happens and plans change, and you might never make it to medical school taking this route.
 
1. a phd program will set you back 5+ years. maybe 6 or more if you teach. md/phd program is doable in 7-8+

2. md/phd program gives a job guarantee via your md

3. you wont save much during your phd. then you will take out a huge loan for med school. md/phd program will offer you the experience w/o financial burden

4. if you can't get into a md/phd program. go for straight md. you can pick up a phd later during your residency or fellowship
 
I am considering a similar path. I would offer you this piece of advice: You'll never be sorry for any education/degree you receive.

Can you imagine saying, "man, I wish I hadn't gotten that good-for-nothing Ph.D."

I realize there are time and money considerations to be made here, but you won't regret having an advanced degree. Once you have it, the degree (and what you learned in pursuit of it) will serve you in whatever you decide to do.
 
There is no reason you can't do research with an MD, or and MD/PhD. With the other route you are looking at a minimum of eleven years of school, but are more likely looking at about fourteen or fifteen years (residency included with both). That's just nuts! If you're willing to do that, then fine, but just be aware that you can achieve the same objective without doing the lone PhD program. In fact, many people do research with just an MD, but if you're heart is set, the MD/PhD sounds like the perfect option.
 
I am considering a similar path. I would offer you this piece of advice: You'll never be sorry for any education/degree you receive.

Can you imagine saying, "man, I wish I hadn't gotten that good-for-nothing Ph.D."

I am a PhD -> MD and I wish I hadn't gone to graduate school. It's not that it didn't benefit me, it's just that 6 years of toil and abject poverty was more than it was worth.
 
I am considering a similar path. I would offer you this piece of advice: You'll never be sorry for any education/degree you receive.

Can you imagine saying, "man, I wish I hadn't gotten that good-for-nothing Ph.D."

I realize there are time and money considerations to be made here, but you won't regret having an advanced degree. Once you have it, the degree (and what you learned in pursuit of it) will serve you in whatever you decide to do.

But how much will it really benefit you? MDs are already prevalent in research. I know there are advantages to having MD/PhD, but is it really worth taking 5 or so years to get a PhD and THEN pursue MD? If you're certain you can't get into an MD/PhD program just go the MD route. Do research in med school. Take a year off during for research (some programs allow this) and develop a good research base. There are many ways to do research with only an MD. I suggest doing this over living in frustration and poverty only to do it again through med school.
 
Wow, my previous post has been most unpopular. What I was trying to say is that while getting a PhD then M.D. may be draining money and energy wise (and perhaps the result of some poor planning), getting a PhD>>>M.D. is not the worst thing you could do. I hold that once you have the degree, it's a good thing.
 
I am considering a similar path. I would offer you this piece of advice: You'll never be sorry for any education/degree you receive.

This is very, very, very bad advice: many people regret their degrees, and from anecdotal evidence, this includes Ph.D.s who wish they had gotten M.D.s instead, as well as M.D.,Ph.D.s who wish they hadn't wasted 3-4 years earning a Ph.D.

O.P. you have a few options:
--Do a research postbac at the NIH or tech at a major university
--Do an MD with thesis program in med school (most allopathic schools have this option)
--Take a year off to do an HHMI/Sarnoff/NIH/Doris Duke year
--Enter a research-oriented residency/fellowship (you'll need quite a bit of previous research experience)
--Do an extramural NIH postdoc after residency/fellowship that will allow you to postdoc and work as an attending at the same time
 
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1. a phd program will set you back 5+ years. maybe 6 or more if you teach. md/phd program is doable in 7-8+

2. md/phd program gives a job guarantee via your md

3. you wont save much during your phd. then you will take out a huge loan for med school. md/phd program will offer you the experience w/o financial burden

4. if you can't get into a md/phd program. go for straight md. you can pick up a phd later during your residency or fellowship
I was going to post something like this but you know way more about it than I do. Good advice.:thumbup:
 
Wow, my previous post has been most unpopular. What I was trying to say is that while getting a PhD then M.D. may be draining money and energy wise (and perhaps the result of some poor planning), getting a PhD>>>M.D. is not the worst thing you could do. I hold that once you have the degree, it's a good thing.

Well, yeah, having a PhD is nice. Not necessarily 7 years of your life nice though.

I'd recommend getting the MD first and reevaluating. Having the MD might also help if you want to do human subjects research in grad school, and you might be able to find time to moonlight for some extra cash.
 
I am considering a similar path. I would offer you this piece of advice: You'll never be sorry for any education/degree you receive.

Can you imagine saying, "man, I wish I hadn't gotten that good-for-nothing Ph.D."


I realize there are time and money considerations to be made here, but you won't regret having an advanced degree. Once you have it, the degree (and what you learned in pursuit of it) will serve you in whatever you decide to do.

Umm, yes I can imagine that. Life is short, too short to spend upwards of 15 years in a PhD program, then med school, then a residency...

Anybody considering MD/PhD should spend some time in the relevant forums here and talk to people doing these. I have seen a ton of negative feedback from people in those programs, FWIW...

To get a PhD prior to getting an MD is not an intelligent use of time and money. Either get a joint degree through med school, or don't bother with the PhD at all if your goal is MD.
 
Umm, yes I can imagine that. Life is short, too short to spend upwards of 15 years in a PhD program, then med school, then a residency...

To get a PhD prior to getting an MD is not an intelligent use of time and money. Either get a joint degree through med school, or don't bother with the PhD at all if your goal is MD.

Okay, perhaps I have projected my own personality and situation onto you guys. Considering my nature and personal career goals, a PhD-MD would help me. I thought the OP might identify.

Anyway, since I don't have an MD or a PhD, it would be silly of me to argue this further. I'm gonna let it go, and say OP, do what makes you happy.

If you are enthused a/b research---get a PhD and do research.
If you want to be a doctor---get a MD and do medicine.
If you get a PhD, and then decide you want to be a doctor---then you still have the option of getting your MD. Simple as that.
 
All of your replies added insight to my dilemma. I am going to apply to straight MD programs since I can conduct research with an MD. It may be harder to earn grants, but it seems more practical this way. Thank you. :D
 
If you really want to do research, there are NIH programs you can go into after medical school, or you can do a post doc fellowship in someone's lab. PhDs in human subjects research might like to have an MD in their group as they bring a different skill set.
 
Okay, perhaps I have projected my own personality and situation onto you guys. Considering my nature and personal career goals, a PhD-MD would help me. I thought the OP might identify.

Anyway, since I don't have an MD or a PhD, it would be silly of me to argue this further. I'm gonna let it go, and say OP, do what makes you happy.

If you are enthused a/b research---get a PhD and do research.
If you want to be a doctor---get a MD and do medicine.
If you get a PhD, and then decide you want to be a doctor---then you still have the option of getting your MD. Simple as that.
That's just ridiculous. Get the MD and do research with an MD. That way, you can do research and practice medicine. WHY go PhD? Unless you absolutely LOVE academia/research (which case, why are you considering MD?), MD will offer you plenty of opportunities to do research.

OP - Get an MD. Considering how ridiculously difficult it is to even get an MD/PhD (I think it's 5 applicants/cycle), you're better off with an MD.
 
All of your replies added insight to my dilemma. I am going to apply to straight MD programs since I can conduct research with an MD. It may be harder to earn grants, but it seems more practical this way. Thank you. :D

Talk to faculty who serve on grant review boards: having an MD, PhD does not mean you are given a magical boost over MDs in your application. At the end of the day, funding comes down to which proposal seems more likely to yield meaningful results, and not the letters after your name
 
Talk to faculty who serve on grant review boards: having an MD, PhD does not mean you are given a magical boost over MDs in your application. At the end of the day, funding comes down to which proposal seems more likely to yield meaningful results, and not the letters after your name
VERY true. Because there are some PhDs doing research that makes me wonder how they received their PhDs. And then you see brilliant MDs doing research.
 
you gotta put your time into figure out what is realistic and what is not. my mstp seems to be moving to only take applicants w/ 1+ years of full time experience that is post-school, paid/salaried position w/ full responsibilities. i dont think you will understand what a career of a physician scientist is like if you don't put in your time and talk to a lot of people in real life.
 
you gotta put your time into figure out what is realistic and what is not. my mstp seems to be moving to only take applicants w/ 1+ years of full time experience that is post-school, paid/salaried position w/ full responsibilities. i dont think you will understand what a career of a physician scientist is like if you don't put in your time and talk to a lot of people in real life.

Exactly. This is what changed my mind when considering MD/PhD programs. I pursued a research based master's in biomedical engineering and interacted with many MD/PhD students and scientists. The sacrifices made are tough. The work can be extremely frustrating. Writing grants, experiments not working, and departmental politics on top of seeing patients....it's very stressful. It's also extremely rewarding, but it's certainly not for everyone (myself included). Talk at length with physician scientists before traveling down that road. I was all for it until I did some very extensive research.
 
It seems to look a lot better just to apply straight MD. If i do decide to pursue research, the MD is a professional degree that will allow me to do so. MD/PhD is not for everyone, I recently talked to one at NYU and he said the life was hell but if you love living in hell then it is just for you. The MD looks very doable without wasting time. When I say wasting time I do not mean to say that a PhD is a waste of time, but a PhD is not beneficial to a clinician as I have learned.

Anyone here done biomed PhD? What have your experiences been? :thumbup:
 
I am doing a phd in biomed. I don't have a lot of perspective but here's what I got. You can do research either way. PhDs and MDs write grants together, and in our case it seems they just put whoever will be most beneficial as PI (depending on who's going to pony up the dough, does it look better to have a surgeon or a researcher as PI...). Since I'm considering the switch to MD, I am probably biased towards just doing MD. PhDs take a long time, and the stipends are fine if you have no previous debt and no one else to support but I could see it being pretty nuts if that were not the case.

It might depend on what kind of research you want to do.

Others can chime in here, but here's what the MD side seems to be to me. If you are the MDs that we do research with for example, you are involved in some of the ideas, you tell us on the research side no that idea won't work bc doctors won't use that, or hey, we doctors need this can you make something to bring us that information. You and researchers settle on a general idea, write the grant, get the monies. Then as the MD you are further involved as the way the researchers get their data from clinical cases.

The researchers on the other hand have the knowledge base to actually build the system, to make the new scaffolding for tissue, to make a new bioreactor, to build the prosthesis. We don't always know what is useful, which is where the MD comes in, but we are the people who build it. And troubleshoot it. We know the physical attributes of the device, what forces it will withstand, the velocity profiles of blood going around it, what it breaks down into in the body as it degrades, the cell thickness we can grow on this polymer with these size pores with this type of media and so on. We go (eventually, not all labs are so closely working with clinicians obviously) to the clinic/OR and we get data with the MDs, and it confirms or refutes some things we thought about our system, we edit, and so on.

So if you want your responsibility to be the patient in the clinic, and you want to be PART of a group that is trying new ideas, and you want to be part of those new brainstorming sessions and help move stuff forward, do MD. If you really want the research, the system that is being developed in a lab, to be your baby, and you want to know everything about it and bring it to term in some way, then a PhD is more along your lines. Both sides want to help people, but at the end of the day, who is your baby, the patient or the device/system/method you're building. That seems to be part of the difference for me, and is part of the reason I am thinking of starting all over and switching :)

If the research making-the-project-mine-all-mine sounds like something you really want to do for a while, to really see that side of things, of course you do have to consider the time. PhDs take a while, and if you really want to take more ownership (your own ideas, write the grant, get the money, do the work) then a post doc would probably be in order. Then when you turn back to MD, uh well we all know how ridiculously long that road is.

Oh, and if by research you think you'd be excited about using what technology is already out there and testing one versus the other, this technique versus the other for hip replacement surgery in terms of time, blood loss, etc, this endoscope versus this one, this treatment plan vs this one, then that's another set of MD research which would (I assume) be taking place without PhD collaboration, so it's kind of a different animal and of course in those types of cases you could call the project and the patient care portion both your own.
 
" It might depend on what kind of research you want to do."

Thank you fizzgig, your information on PhD to MD makes a clear distinction.
I am going to apply straight MD and will let all of you know my luck :D
 
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