A Slight Problem

[cr02]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hello,
I am currently trying to plan out everything I need to do before applying to med school. I am currently a rising sophomore. This summer, I am working at a children's summer camp as I was told that it didn't really matter too much what you did in the summer between Freshman and Sophomore year. Plus, this job gives a bit of cohesiveness to my application as the majority of my volunteer hours are in/will be working with children as well. Next summer, I want to get some clinical experience, but I have a problem in that I have to take Organic I (which is offered in June at my University) because my Freshman year advisor told me not to take General Chem until sophomore year (I only realized how troubling this is after it was too late). This puts me in a spot where I would only really be available to work a full-time job for one month of summer next year which only gives me roughly 180-220 hours of clinical work experience. Because I have to take Biochemistry I during the Spring of my junior year, I will likely take the MCAT in the middle of June in the summer between my Junior and Senior years. I would then obviously fill out the AMCAS and ideally have it submitted before going back to school for my Senior year in August.
Some of my options to get more clinical hours are to try to work in that July before my senior year. It will be after my MCAT but I could still likely clock about ~200 hours in that month. Also, my school has a lengthy winter break (6 weeks) so I could also try to work for a few of those as well (though I do plan on going on a medical mission trip for at least a week of ideally both winter breaks).
I should have close to 100 hours of shadowing by the time my Sophomore year starts, so it would not be hard to end up with close to 150-200. I will have at least 150 hours of community service (through 2 outlets but all involving children). Also, the job I worked this summer will give me close to 250 hours of work experience (albeit non-medical).

TLDR: I need to get clinical occupational experience, but I have to take Organic during June between my Sophomore and Junior years.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Any kind of advice relating to what I should do to be competitive at top medical schools is welcome.

Thanks so much for reading and helping!

 

[RandomChance]

From general consensus of this form, you need to hit:
~50 hours shadowing (primary care should be a good chunk of it)
~150 hours clinical volunteering
~150 hours non-clinical volunteering (preferably with those who are under-served)

I would argue that long-term commitments to an organization (multiple years) looks better than a high overall hour count generally, but every adcom is different.

Medical mission trips are usually ill-regarded, I would advise saving your money.

It seems like you'll have more than enough volunteer hours - have you thought about trying to jump into a lab to get some research under your belt? Many of the top-tier schools are very research heavy and like to see it on an app.

 

[LizzyM]

Do not take the MCAT before you are ready. Figure on preparing for it as if it were a course you are taking along with your other courses in Spring semester of Junior year. To be competitive for the top schools you need a very, very good MCAT.

Do not figure on being ready to submit an AMCAS application until you have taken the MCAT. Do not rush the application. If it means waiting a year and planning for a gap year with your AMCAS application being prepared in May of your senior year and submitted in early June, then do that.

You have not mentioned research. That is pretty much an expectation for the top medical schools. That would be a good opportunity for the summer between junior and senior year and for your gap year.

There are great reservations about the value of medical mission trips for applicants and for the communities they attempt to serve. Take a hard look at whether this is something that would be of benefit to the people you would be serving or if it would be exploitative.

Your clinical experience need not be paid employment. Is there any health care facility near your school where you could get unpaid experience during the school year? Even 3 hours/wk for 30 weeks (the weeks in a school year) for 2 years would be acceptable.

You were given bad advice by an advisor and now it looks as if you will have a timeline that is different than what you might have hoped for but to do it in a rushed fashion in the summer of 2020 and then have to do it again in 2021 or 2022 because you were not well prepared, early and well written in 2020 would just pile on the woe that your advisor has caused you. Don't pile on the errors.

 

[ciestar]

You don’t need a missions trip and they don’t seem to impress adcoms

Wouldn’t ever suggest doing ochem over the summer.

If you want a top school you will need research.

 

[cr02]

From general consensus of this form, you need to hit:
~50 hours shadowing (primary care should be a good chunk of it)
~150 hours clinical volunteering
~150 hours non-clinical volunteering (preferably with those who are under-served)

I would argue that long-term commitments to an organization (multiple years) looks better than a high overall hour count generally, but every adcom is different.

Medical mission trips are usually ill-regarded, I would advise saving your money.

It seems like you'll have more than enough volunteer hours - have you thought about trying to jump into a lab to get some research under your belt? Many of the top-tier schools are very research heavy and like to see it on an app.

Yes I have emailed about 5 professors about potential research. I have gotten a yes from one but he is psychology and he told me to try to find a hard science lab if I can before committing to him (he is an awesome guy).
Would clinical volunteer be things such as volunteering in the hospital?

 

[ciestar]

Yes I have emailed about 5 professors about potential research. I have gotten a yes from one but he is psychology and he told me to try to find a hard science lab if I can before committing to him (he is an awesome guy).
Would clinical volunteer be things such as volunteering in the hospital?

Hospitals, nursing homes, hospice.. so many things

 

[cr02]

You don’t need a missions trip and they don’t seem to impress adcoms

Wouldn’t ever suggest doing ochem over the summer.

If you want a top school you will need research.

Why no OChem over the summer? It’s kinda my only choice at this point if I want to take BioChem before the MCAT.
I have heard med schools may look down on taking OChem over the summer. Is this true? Is there any way you could think of that I could avoid OChem in the summer without taking a gap year while still getting in BioChem before the MCAT

 

[ciestar]

Why no OChem over the summer? It’s kinda my only choice at this point if I want to take BioChem before the MCAT.
I have heard med schools may look down on taking OChem over the summer. Is this true? Is there any way you could think of that I could avoid OChem in the summer without taking a gap year while still getting in BioChem before the MCAT

Some schools do frown upon summer courses. And why not? Because it was awful.

 

[cr02]

Do not take the MCAT before you are ready. Figure on preparing for it as if it were a course you are taking along with your other courses in Spring semester of Junior year. To be competitive for the top schools you need a very, very good MCAT.

Do not figure on being ready to submit an AMCAS application until you have taken the MCAT. Do not rush the application. If it means waiting a year and planning for a gap year with your AMCAS application being prepared in May of your senior year and submitted in early June, then do that.

You have not mentioned research. That is pretty much an expectation for the top medical schools. That would be a good opportunity for the summer between junior and senior year and for your gap year.

There are great reservations about the value of medical mission trips for applicants and for the communities they attempt to serve. Take a hard look at whether this is something that would be of benefit to the people you would be serving or if it would be exploitative.

Your clinical experience need not be paid employment. Is there any health care facility near your school where you could get unpaid experience during the school year? Even 3 hours/wk for 30 weeks (the weeks in a school year) for 2 years would be acceptable.

You were given bad advice by an advisor and now it looks as if you will have a timeline that is different than what you might have hoped for but to do it in a rushed fashion in the summer of 2020 and then have to do it again in 2021 or 2022 because you were not well prepared, early and well written in 2020 would just pile on the woe that your advisor has caused you. Don't pile on the errors.

The AMCAS can be done in a month can it not? I was thinking that I would be able to prepare it after taking the MCAT in June. Deadlines are in October so I should conceivably have ample time right?
Or is taking the MCAT in June a bad idea? I will have have ~40 straight days off school to straight study plus I plan on beginning study during the beginning of my junior year alongside my courses (as most people do). Plus I will have already had all the recommended courses for the test. I suppose I could push the MCAT back another couple weeks and I can still prepare the AMCAS in the remaining month and a half I have between the MCAT and the beginning of my senior year.

 

[cr02]

Some schools do frown upon summer courses. And why not? Because it was awful.

I understand it is going to be incredibly challenging but I don’t see any way out of it without taking a gap year which I really don’t want to do. I kind of just have to suck it up, no?
If there is any way out of it, I’d be happy for any suggestions.

 

[ciestar]

The AMCAS can be done in a month can it not? I was thinking that I would be able to prepare it after taking the MCAT in June. Deadlines are in October so I should conceivably have ample time right?
Or is taking the MCAT in June a bad idea? I will have have ~40 straight days off school to straight study plus I plan on beginning study during the beginning of my junior year alongside my courses (as most people do). Plus I will have already had all the recommended courses for the test. I suppose I could push the MCAT back another couple weeks and I can still prepare the AMCAS in the remaining month and a half I have between the MCAT and the beginning of my senior year.

June MCAT is fine. October application is not fine. Interviews are already going out in some places, if you don’t submit until October you’re really behind.

 

[cr02]

June MCAT is fine. October application is not fine. Interviews are already going out in some places, if you don’t submit until October you’re really behind.

I should be able to submit by August. If I take the MCAT on June 15ish, I should conceivably have a month and a half to prepare the application, receive my MCAT and submit in the July 15- August 1 range. Is that too late?

 

[gyngyn]

I should be able to submit by August. If I take the MCAT on June 15ish, I should conceivably have a month and a half to prepare the application, receive my MCAT and submit in the July 15- August 1 range. Is that too late?

Take all the time you need to get an MCAT score consistent with success and a sufficient amount of time to prepare strong applications.

 

[cr02]

Take all the time you need to get an MCAT score consistent with success.

I am talking about a month and a half for the AMCAS. That should be enough correct?
As for MCAT study, my Junior year spring schedule should be as follows: Biochem I, Virology, Sociology, Intro to Neuroscience. It doesn't look too awful. Sociology should be a cakewalk and neither Virology or Neuroscience is supposed to be too challenging. Biochem will obviously be tough, but it will be fresh on my mind for the MCAT at least. Moreover, my University ends around May 5, which gives me an extra 40 days to study for the MCAT if I take it June 15th like I plan.
Thus, with a relatively tame schedule, 40 days of summer to study, and fresh Biochem knowledge, I feel that I should be more than adequately prepared. Not to mention I can start studying a bit during the preceding summer and fall. I feel like this timeline is better than par for the course in terms of ample study time. Am I mistaken?

 

[cr02]

Also, I just want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me. I know so little compared to 99% of the people on this website, and it is great to hear suggestions and advice from people who are ahead of me in the process.

 

[RandomChance]

Also, I just want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me. I know so little compared to 99% of the people on this website, and it is great to hear suggestions and advice from people who are ahead of me in the process.

The best thing you can do on this website is literally just go through threads and read. Every problem or question anyone ever raises on this site has been addressed in depth previously, it may just take awhile to get to it. Read read read!

 

[Goro]

Also, I just want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me. I know so little compared to 99% of the people on this website, and it is great to hear suggestions and advice from people who are ahead of me in the process.

The smart thing is not to listen to your advisor. The road to medical school is littered with the festering corpses of students who did and found out that the information they'd been given was lousy. The wise LizzyM

Get this book:
Med School Rx: Getting In, Getting Through, and Getting On with Doctoring Original Edition by Walter Hartwig
ISBN-13: 978-1607140627
ISBN-10: 1607140624

 

[gyngyn]

I am talking about a month and a half for the AMCAS. That should be enough correct?
As for MCAT study, my Junior year spring schedule should be as follows: Biochem I, Virology, Sociology, Intro to Neuroscience. It doesn't look too awful. Sociology should be a cakewalk and neither Virology or Neuroscience is supposed to be too challenging. Biochem will obviously be tough, but it will be fresh on my mind for the MCAT at least. Moreover, my University ends around May 5, which gives me an extra 40 days to study for the MCAT if I take it June 15th like I plan.
Thus, with a relatively tame schedule, 40 days of summer to study, and fresh Biochem knowledge, I feel that I should be more than adequately prepared. Not to mention I can start studying a bit during the preceding summer and fall. I feel like this timeline is better than par for the course in terms of ample study time. Am I mistaken?

We all learn differently. The amount of time you will need to prep for the MCAT should not be altered by how long you think it will take to apply through AMCAS. Without interval feedback regarding your likely MCAT score (AAMC FL's for example) there is no way to predict if your timetable will work.

 

[LizzyM]

It can take a long time to develop a strong personal statement. In addition, you'll need to formulate a description of up to 15 different "experiences", select up to 3 of those as "most meaningful" and write an addition brief paragraph about why it was a meaningful experience.
In addition, you will need to prepare 1-4 essays for each supplemental application. Those should be as carefully crafted as the personal statement.

To be at the head of the class, you need to have the AMCAS application submitted by 4th of July, supplementals and letters of recommendation by Labor Day.

 

[cr02]

It can take a long time to develop a strong personal statement. In addition, you'll need to formulate a description of up to 15 different "experiences", select up to 3 of those as "most meaningful" and write an addition brief paragraph about why it was a meaningful experience.
In addition, you will need to prepare 1-4 essays for each supplemental application. Those should be as carefully crafted as the personal statement.

To be at the head of the class, you need to have the AMCAS application submitted by 4th of July, supplementals and letters of recommendation by Labor Day.

It can take a long time to develop a strong personal statement. In addition, you'll need to formulate a description of up to 15 different "experiences", select up to 3 of those as "most meaningful" and write an addition brief paragraph about why it was a meaningful experience.
In addition, you will need to prepare 1-4 essays for each supplemental application. Those should be as carefully crafted as the personal statement.

To be at the head of the class, you need to have the AMCAS application submitted by 4th of July, supplementals and letters of recommendation by Labor Day.

how detrimental would it be to submit the AMCAS say July 14th?

 

[Lucca]

how detrimental would it be to submit the AMCAS say July 14th?

It would be average. Not early, not late. Doable.

Some points for trying to get top flight research on your CV:

-if you do basic science, pick a project and a lab that already has a working project going and is trying to drive it to completion. You’re more likely to publish in this environment. I picked a lab in undergrad with a PI and project I loved, I don’t regret it, but it was a brand new project I started from scratch and after 2 years I got 2 posters and a senior thesis but no pubs. After 8 months in my gap year I’m on potentially 3 papers just because I was at the right place, right time.

-Pick the PI not the Science Pick the PI not the Science Pick the PI not the Science Pick the PI not the Science Pick the...

McAT:
- don’t take until you’re ready. I’m glad that you have a plan this early on — that’s great! — but I am concerned about your reticence to take a gap year. Gap years aren’t for everyone and I’m not saying that you should take one, but you should be mentally prepared for the possibility that you won’t be prepared for the MCAT to your liking when you are signed up to take it. Three things can happen from there:
1. You take it anyway, don’t do as well as you could have but do well enough and have to then curb your expectations for your school list.
2. You postpone it, meaning that you will in all likelihood have to take a gap year.
3. You do badly. Like, can’t get into medical school bad.

If you’re a good student, 1 & 2 are more likely. Decide RIGHT NOW what your choice is in those two scenarios because it can be difficult to line up a gap year in the middle of what was supposed to be your application cycle. Taking a last minute McAT is risky and you have to be prepared.

No need to do voluntourism. If you want to go abroad, go with an established project at a legitimate organization like the WHO, Peace Corps, Partners in Health, Medecins sans Frontiers, etc.

 

[LizzyM]

how detrimental would it be to submit the AMCAS say July 14th?

After you submit, your application has to be verified by AMCAS. There is a lag and some people will be able to tell you how many weeks it will take for that to happen. but, I will tell you that the first date on which applications are transmitted electronically to the medical schools happens in late June and on that date, 25% of all applicants drop. If you submit on July 14th you are likely to be well into August before the schools see your application and send you secondaries.

 

[cr02]

@Lucca @LizzyM
I emailed my psychology professor about research, and he said he would be glad to have me though he warned that it may not be in my best interest to stray from hard sciences (I mentioned this above, but I would like some greater clarification on it). He is my favorite professor I have had so far, and I have no doubt he would write me a glowing letter of rec especially if I researched under him. However, I do not want to look "lazy" by doing research that isn't strictly lab-based hard science. Should I continue emailing and talking around for a Biology/Chemistry lab or should I go for the psychology one? The projects are all of interest to me so that is not a huge factor. I am minoring in neuroscience which does require a decent amount of credit in psychology so it isn't necessarily outside of my academic pursuits if that means anything.

 

[LizzyM]

@Lucca @LizzyM
I emailed my psychology professor about research, and he said he would be glad to have me though he warned that it may not be in my best interest to stray from hard sciences (I mentioned this above, but I would like some greater clarification on it). He is my favorite professor I have had so far, and I have no doubt he would write me a glowing letter of rec especially if I researched under him. However, I do not want to look "lazy" by doing research that isn't strictly lab-based hard science. Should I continue emailing and talking around for a Biology/Chemistry lab or should I go for the psychology one? The projects are all of interest to me so that is not a huge factor. I am minoring in neuroscience which does require a decent amount of credit in psychology so it isn't necessarily outside of my academic pursuits if that means anything.

Is this hypothesis based research? Does it involve animals and/or human research participants? Does he have other students and/or post-docs working with him in his lab?

 

[cr02]

Is this hypothesis based research? Does it involve animals and/or human research participants? Does he have other students and/or post-docs working with him in his lab?

I emailed the professor and got this information back.

All of it is science-based and much of it is statistical and epidemiological. Recently, they have done a lot of work with schools and archival stuff from medical systems. Specifically, the professor himself has been looking at large databases that cover all the residents of our state, region, or nation. He said this research is done to find trends and then to use those trends to improve processes in those systems.

Another thing they focus on is working with a local pain clinic through patient assessment. Basically, patients fill out a questionnaire in the waiting room which a physician can quickly read and diagnose. People with certain symptoms come back for a follow-up. This process allows the pain management team at the clinic to have a more detailed diagnosis which allows them to properly treat patients. Also, they offer individual treatment and group-level education on pain management through psychological techniques. Lastly, the study is analyzing the effects of infusions of specific chemicals on depression and PTSD patients (he said this is pioneering research which interests me). He said that this specific section of their research would get me direct contact with patients and physicians in a clinical setting which is a bonus.

As for students, there are 11 grad students and 3 undergraduate students working with the professor and his wife (another professor).

Sorry for the delayed response. I just wanted to get the info straight from the professor so I didn't mistakenly list anything false.

 

[LizzyM]

Is this patient assessment evidence based? Have there been any publications showing it to be a valid and reliable measure? "Infusions of specific chemicals" sounds like clinical trials. Is there any FDA oversight of this work? Is it exempt from Investigational New Drug (IND) paperwork or does the investigator hold the IND. Ask a few more questions before you get involved in something that might be seen as somewhat irregular.

 

[cr02]

Is this patient assessment evidence based? Have there been any publications showing it to be a valid and reliable measure? "Infusions of specific chemicals" sounds like clinical trials. Is there any FDA oversight of this work? Is it exempt from Investigational New Drug (IND) paperwork or does the investigator hold the IND. Ask a few more questions before you get involved in something that might be seen as somewhat irregular.

He said that the first project I described is having a publication submitted this week (and yes everything is evidence based). The pain management study is fairly new but they have submitted an IRB protocol which does seem like it would alleviate your concerns on its legality (at a large state university, I feel like they would be extra cautious to make absolutely sure they got all necessary permissions though it is good to be safe).

 

[LizzyM]

Submitting an application does not mean much-- getting it accepted for publication is key. Ditto submitting a protocol to the IRB... you want to see that the protocol has IRB approval. This might be too new to be a good choice at this point when you don't have years and years to devote to this work is in its infancy.