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That mentality comforts me as well. I like to think that if I go in expecting the worse I can only be pleasantly surprised.
A Stressful Career?
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That mentality comforts me as well. I like to think that if I go in expecting the worse I can only be pleasantly surprised.
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That's been my attitude as well, about a lot of things.
I can't speak for being a vet, but I can tell you, that as a first year vet student, this year has not been nearly as terrifying as I expected. I expected teachers that hated the students, exams every day, giant F's across the top of my papers, evil classmates. I had all sorts of nightmares about how horrible it was going to be. And sure, there are some exams that are tough, some professors I don't like, and some classmates that I don't see eye to eye with, but for the most part, I'm quite happy where I am. I still get stressed, but it's nothing I can't handle, and in all honestly, while there is a lot of work, people are right when they say that it's not hard, just a lot of info thrown at you at once. I'm still working on developing study habits, but surprisingly, have yet to truly feel like I'm drowning and can't keep up, which I was led to believe was inevitable.
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That's awesome and encouraging! Good luck on getting those study habits. If you're doing this good already, I'm sure you'll get fiendlishly awesome at studying before all is said and done 🙂 Sending good thoughts your way!
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envious. worst semester of my life. everything's getting exponentially better, but my last semester was turmoil.
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To be fair, this semester has been much, much better. I'm just so jaded from last semester. It was certainly not how I expected to start off. Mostly because I never had to study in undergrad, then I got here and I have to study continuously, and I didn't study in the right way, so I was putting in all this effort and doing poorly. Luckily I have found my strategy I think, and although its challenging, things seem to be looking up!
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Just don't give yourself an ulcer that way 🙂
Everyone has a different experience of vet school and has walked different paths to get there. Some people love it, some people do not. Your experience will be uniquely yours.
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Well, your answers are awesome! Thank you for providing me with so much insight into your profession.😀 Just out of curiousty, have you ever thought about branching out into other areas of veterinary medicine? I'm just curious if you would be happier in shelter medicine or another speciality, instead of private practice. 😉
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I've definitely considered it. The most appealing option would be for me to get a MPH and work in the public health field, but that's really not something I can do right now due to geographic limitations. There are a lot of distance learning programs that I could use to get the degree, but no available public health jobs in this area. (My husband is in grad school.... and he's also very reluctant to move away from his family, though I think he's loosening up on that some!!)
Shelter medicine is definitely something that I've considered, especially in vet school. Now that I'm out in practice, though, I really can't imagine spending ALL DAY LONG doing nothing but spays/neuters. I think I'd enjoy shelter work if there was more of a focus on actual medicine, herd health, etc.... but shelter budgets in my area are such that sick animals are typically euthanized instead of treated. (My state has a VERY high euthanasia rate for shelter animals.) I go back and forth on it, because a spay/neuter job would be much less stressful than private practice... but I think I need at least SOME challenge and doing surgeries all day would bore me to tears!!
This is my current fantasy when I'm having a rough day at work 🙂
http://jobs.avma.org/jobs/3944315/associate-veterinarian
I don't have the experience for it and I'm not sure how I feel about circuses from an ethical standpoint, but it sure sounds fun!!!
My attitude towards work is slightly better today.... I had worked the last six days in a row (one 8-hr day, the rest 11+ hr days) but had yesterday and today as my days off for this week. It's nice to get a break!!
ETA: Honestly, I went into vet school and all through vet school thinking I'd NEVER work in small animal medicine. I started vet school with an interest in mixed practice or zoo medicine, then my thoughts turned more to public health and lab animal medicine while I was actually in vet school. Unfortunately, though, life gets in the way... and due to a whole bunch of factors (family, finances, a previous relationship, etc), there were bills to be paid and I was limited to small animal medicine when I graduated. Once you start down that path, get used to earning a salary, form connections in your community, etc, life takes on its own momentum and your options start to become more limited. My husband and I are planning to start a family soon, for example, so there's no way that I could go back to grad school right now, or that we could uproot and move across the country, or whatever. It's funny (and sad, at the same time) to think back on how diverse the dreams of some of my classmates were and how many of us ended up in small animal general practice. I know several people who went "outside the box" with cool careers in zoo medicine or whatever, but most of them had wealthy spouses to provide financial support.... by the time you finish undergrad & vet school and have all of those loans, it becomes harder and harder to take a gamble on a more competitive field with low pay.
Wow. That was a really depressing post. I feel old now.
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Chicken Little is giving a very realistic portrayal of the profession and its challenges today. I agree with her 100% in her portrayal of the key issues facing the profession. There are many problems in veterinary medicine from student debt to cost of care issues that are coming together that need leadership and realistic solutions. Like her, I know of unemployed or underemployed veterinarians and veterinarians who have returned to previous occupations because they earned more (ie a dental hygienist). Until these problems are addressed successfully, veterinary medicine will continue to decline. I am just being realistic about extreme risk any investment in becoming a veterinarian is relative to other professions with similar costs in time and money or even less costs. Sadly, I do not see any leader's who want to make the difficult decisions that have to be made if we are to prosper financially and psychologically as a profession.
Many veterinarians love the intellectual thrill and accomplishment of medicine but at the end of the day you have to disengage and be able to afford and live your everyday life of paying your bills, saving for houses and retirement and children if you want. Also making enough money to be able to afford some luxuries along the way is also part of it. Unfortunately, I see less and less of that happening among veterinarians who are starting or in the middle of their professional careers.
Joe
Many veterinarians love the intellectual thrill and accomplishment of medicine but at the end of the day you have to disengage and be able to afford and live your everyday life of paying your bills, saving for houses and retirement and children if you want. Also making enough money to be able to afford some luxuries along the way is also part of it. Unfortunately, I see less and less of that happening among veterinarians who are starting or in the middle of their professional careers.
Joe
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This comment really resonated with me. I think maybe because of my age (40's), I have enough life experience that I've come to realize that compromises are a fact of life. It's terribly easy to be ultra-idealistic when you're 20 and think you'll never declaw a cat, dock a tail, waiver on pain management, cut a corner here or there because of the owner's financial situation, whatever.
Things can get cloudy real quick when you have a responsibility to support a family, to not drive clients away from the clinic just because they want to declaw their cat, and when you consider that maybe the cat is better off with YOU doing a good job with a scalpel than sending them to the next vet over who may be doing a quick trimmer amputation.
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I am so appreciative of all of the thoughts being shared in this thread. I am an older (30) non-traditional who is having serious doubts about pursuing veterinary medicine for all of the reasons discussed above. I have, over the last couple of years, noted that every single veterinarian I have worked alongside has really discouraged me from pursuing the field, and none of them have seemed happy or live a lifestyle that I desire. Most of them have been much older, having only graduated with around $8,000 in debt, so their distaste for the field developed without the added financial pressure that future vets face today. This has made me very concerned.
I know that there are many reasons for pre-vets to have hope and continue to pursue the field, but for me, personally, I am not sure that it is a good match.
However, I am really struggling in deciding which direction to take because I cannot imagine what else I could do as a career. Human medicine doesn't exactly have a huge fan base either, though at least it's earning potential is more stable. I am not interested in research or academia. I very much dislike being behind a desk or in an office, which pretty much rules out 95% of careers. Oh yea, and there's just the deep passion for animals and their welfare to consider. Yet, this seems to be the greatest catch-22 of all because I am not sure it is a good idea for me to enter a field that so greatly depends on mixing animal care with business. I am very business-minded and can understand the business side of the vet field, but I am not sure I can emotionally accept it. I really don't know how I would fare having to compromise my personal ethics, no matter how much I understand the logic behind doing it. However, while I know that it would be possible for me to run my own clinic in order to gain more autonomy over the way that I would practice medicine, I haven't exactly been inspired by the owners I have worked with (whom are very burnt out emotionally and financially).
I would love to be able to advocate for animal welfare and the human-animal bond, write for the public, and educate. However, it seems that these components of the veterinary field are the last on a vet's mind when she/he has to worry about running a business, or producing enough to meet an owner's expectations, or just making ends meet financially.
I worry greatly that this career could kill my passion, but I just as equally worry about deciding to enter a more stable profession (like human medicine or business), which may leave me feeling vacant knowing that my real passion lies with animals.
Each person's personality makes him/her more or less able to deal with these challenges, and I definitely worry my personality is one that is way more susceptible to burnout, especially because my main motivators for pursuing this field are emotional ones, and less out of a love for the medicine. Though I like the medicine, I am not sure my interest is high enough to overcome all of these challenges.
I know that this is a forum intended to support people on the road to veterinary school (which I still consider myself to be), so I apologize if my post steps on any toes, but I am wondering if there are any suggested alternatives for those of us who are not sure that our personalities are designed for the challenges discussed here, but whom feel a lack of fulfillment when not working with animals? Additionally, I am also wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what potential exists for a person to find this career less stressful and more autonomous - for example, is it very likely if one establishes herself/himself in an affluent area, or, not very likely at all because things are just tough for everyone right now? I know that is a polarized statement, but I ask because it is easy for me to hang on to the notion that if I were just in the right place at the right time, this career could be perfect. However, the more and more I discuss my concerns with vets or read threads like this, the more that vision really does seem to be a far-fetched reality.
Again, this is not intended to be a downer, as these are concerns that are specific to me and my personality. I know there are many of you who will be incredibly fulfilled in this career, despite its challenges.
I know that there are many reasons for pre-vets to have hope and continue to pursue the field, but for me, personally, I am not sure that it is a good match.
However, I am really struggling in deciding which direction to take because I cannot imagine what else I could do as a career. Human medicine doesn't exactly have a huge fan base either, though at least it's earning potential is more stable. I am not interested in research or academia. I very much dislike being behind a desk or in an office, which pretty much rules out 95% of careers. Oh yea, and there's just the deep passion for animals and their welfare to consider. Yet, this seems to be the greatest catch-22 of all because I am not sure it is a good idea for me to enter a field that so greatly depends on mixing animal care with business. I am very business-minded and can understand the business side of the vet field, but I am not sure I can emotionally accept it. I really don't know how I would fare having to compromise my personal ethics, no matter how much I understand the logic behind doing it. However, while I know that it would be possible for me to run my own clinic in order to gain more autonomy over the way that I would practice medicine, I haven't exactly been inspired by the owners I have worked with (whom are very burnt out emotionally and financially).
I would love to be able to advocate for animal welfare and the human-animal bond, write for the public, and educate. However, it seems that these components of the veterinary field are the last on a vet's mind when she/he has to worry about running a business, or producing enough to meet an owner's expectations, or just making ends meet financially.
I worry greatly that this career could kill my passion, but I just as equally worry about deciding to enter a more stable profession (like human medicine or business), which may leave me feeling vacant knowing that my real passion lies with animals.
Each person's personality makes him/her more or less able to deal with these challenges, and I definitely worry my personality is one that is way more susceptible to burnout, especially because my main motivators for pursuing this field are emotional ones, and less out of a love for the medicine. Though I like the medicine, I am not sure my interest is high enough to overcome all of these challenges.
I know that this is a forum intended to support people on the road to veterinary school (which I still consider myself to be), so I apologize if my post steps on any toes, but I am wondering if there are any suggested alternatives for those of us who are not sure that our personalities are designed for the challenges discussed here, but whom feel a lack of fulfillment when not working with animals? Additionally, I am also wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what potential exists for a person to find this career less stressful and more autonomous - for example, is it very likely if one establishes herself/himself in an affluent area, or, not very likely at all because things are just tough for everyone right now? I know that is a polarized statement, but I ask because it is easy for me to hang on to the notion that if I were just in the right place at the right time, this career could be perfect. However, the more and more I discuss my concerns with vets or read threads like this, the more that vision really does seem to be a far-fetched reality.
Again, this is not intended to be a downer, as these are concerns that are specific to me and my personality. I know there are many of you who will be incredibly fulfilled in this career, despite its challenges.
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Vet school might seem frustrating for you because you will spend 4 very solid years focused on medicine and learning how to diagnose. There is very little emphasis on the emotional aspect of the job while you're in vet school. You will spend days in class learning anatomy, histology, pathology, surgery, bacteriology, virology, etc. It's a lot to get through if you're not a fan of medicine.
One thing I might suggest is picking a career that you find enjoyable enough and profitable. It will give you a lifestyle that you enjoy and you won't be saddled with debt and years in science classes.
Then you can use your free time to work with animals, help educate, write, etc. There are many shelters there that would love help like yours. You could spend time with animals and make a difference. You would be free to take a break when you're burnt out.
If you really wanted, you could become a tech (there are even some online programs available for that) and tech part time.
If you love animals you can still work with them -- and not accrue a huge debt with years of science training.
I have encountered the same thing (my experience has been in SA private practice).
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Thanks, lailanni and great thoughts.
I should point out that I am not turned off by the science or medicine, and find it WAY more interesting than A LOT of other work (administrative, fundraising, really anything behind a desk). I have been taking science classes for the last two years to prepare for vet school and have received A's in all of them, so the vet school courses are something I feel I can comfortably handle. Will I love each and every one? Definitely not, but I have made it this far (having completed my pre-reqs plus several upper divisions).
My point was more specifically that there are many reasons that I have chosen to pursue veterinary medicine beyond just a love of the science (as I am sure is the case for all of us otherwise why else would we be doing this?), but I do worry that these exact motivations are the ones that could cause me to burn out quickly in the field. I also expect that I would not want to focus so much on one area of science in a specialty field, which I think could be a really awesome way for many to practice veterinary medicine. I envy those on here who are so passionate about pathology or microbiology, for example, but I don't believe I love any area of science enough to specialize in it!
I should point out that I am not turned off by the science or medicine, and find it WAY more interesting than A LOT of other work (administrative, fundraising, really anything behind a desk). I have been taking science classes for the last two years to prepare for vet school and have received A's in all of them, so the vet school courses are something I feel I can comfortably handle. Will I love each and every one? Definitely not, but I have made it this far (having completed my pre-reqs plus several upper divisions).
My point was more specifically that there are many reasons that I have chosen to pursue veterinary medicine beyond just a love of the science (as I am sure is the case for all of us otherwise why else would we be doing this?), but I do worry that these exact motivations are the ones that could cause me to burn out quickly in the field. I also expect that I would not want to focus so much on one area of science in a specialty field, which I think could be a really awesome way for many to practice veterinary medicine. I envy those on here who are so passionate about pathology or microbiology, for example, but I don't believe I love any area of science enough to specialize in it!
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Gotcha 🙂 Wasn't sure how much science you had. We get a few people who shadow and when they find out how much science training is involved, they reconsider. Seems like you'll be able to stick it out just fine then.
I understand about the emotional aspect leading to burnout. There have been a few articles about 'compassion fatigue' in veterinary medicine. They were a good read, if I can find the links I'll send them over.
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I think some areas lend themselves to burnout more than others. For example, a practice owner or a shelter vet may need to make more tough decisions. As an associate vet at a small animal practice, you are generally instructed on how to practice (though that may create ethical conflicts, which can also lead to burnout). If you are worried about burnout especially, you could specialize in something less-emotional (pathology, or public health maybe?) and volunteer (if you have time) on the side in shelter work or something else that you have a passion for. I think a big necessity of the profession is being able to leave the work at work, which is something I am struggling with as well.
I also think finding time to do things you love is important. I know personally, for me, even if I don't go into shelter medicine, I will be volunteering as much as a possibly can at a shelter. It's something I truly love.
I would definitely recommend finding different kinds of vets to shadow. There are other options beyond the small animal/large animal veterinarian, and I think that is one of the best aspects of this profession.
Good luck with your decision.
I also think finding time to do things you love is important. I know personally, for me, even if I don't go into shelter medicine, I will be volunteering as much as a possibly can at a shelter. It's something I truly love.
I would definitely recommend finding different kinds of vets to shadow. There are other options beyond the small animal/large animal veterinarian, and I think that is one of the best aspects of this profession.
Good luck with your decision.
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I don't usually speak up much on this board... usually lurking around in between science classes, but I just had to respond to this because it is the complete opposite of what I have experienced.
I currently work at a SA clinic with three doctors. One of the doctors is 25 or so years in the profession, one is ten, and there is one for whom this is a second career, and I believe she's six years in. Part of the reason they hired me on is because I am in the same place she was a while ago. The doctor who has the most experience clearly loves his job. The newest doctor left a substantially higher paying job in "the business world" to become a vet and loves it. Of course they are both sometime stressed out and frustrated (I also seem to observe most frustrations coming from money issues- clients who can't or won't pay for their pets' care, or do and grouse about it.) but it is clear that they would not change it.
Also, while my dogs now go to that clinic, our goats are seen by a LA vet who primarily does equine work. I drove around with her a bit last summer, before I started my pre-req work. The first thing I said when I got in the truck with her was "Talk me out of it." She tried all day, but couldn't think of things that make the job something she would ever leave.
Just wanted to throw out there that there are vets who are happy with what they do and wouldn't change it...
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The economy has to get better someday. Then doesn't vet med have to get better someday too?
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In contrast, I am very much not interested in the emotional aspect of veterinary medicine. Now, obviously, I like working with the animals and am very capable of getting attached or feeling sad when bad things happen, but I don't require it - it just happens. Same with the clients.. I am more than capable of handling all sorts of situations with clients, but it's not something I love, it's just something I do (well, did). I am absolutely in love with the science part, though.
However, if every student were like me, it would probably be a huge mess. There have to be thinkers AND feelers (to reference the Myers-Briggs stuff a bit).
So, don't let differing interests scare you away... but yeah, you do need to sure that you can handle it. Like I said, I enjoy the science, but I know I can handle the emotional stuff (because I have). Likewise, you could enjoy the emotional stuff, but you have to handle a lot of science too. Is it worth it?
Gracie, have you considered something like an MPH? Or, maybe something more deeply rooted in animal welfare?
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I've always tried to figure out exactly what a MPH really does. It seems as though the career is quite broad and not as clear cut. Interesting. Don't feel like you're stuck though. I'm sure there is so much that you have to offer! Look at me, I worked 7 years to get where I am in my career only to become unemployed and now looking into a different career path. I didn't think I'd be where I am at 32 years old.
Not depressing,just truthful...and we're probably right around the same age, I bet.😀
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You sound exactly like me right now! Wow, I'm totally feeling ya. I'm 32 and I am struggling with the same issues you are.
This is the number one thing that scares me the most about entering the veterinary field.My emotions totally sway my rational side, and I have a very difficult time going against my morals, no matter how logical it seems. Definiinly my number one struggle right now.
I agree with that. I know a lot of DVM's go on to get MPH's as well; however what if you did not get a DVM? What could you do with just a MPH in animal welfare? I was saying earlier that it seems as though the career path is a bit broad though....so I don't know. Animal welfare is one of my biggest passions too and that's why I think if I were to ever go into vet medicine then it would have to be shelter medicine...but of course, this is just a musing right now...
Well,I was a teacher and the whole time I was thinking that my passion did not lie with teaching but with animals, so here I am....
So on the same boat as you! It's amazing that we are struggling with the same exact things!!! I wonder if after getting into the field, that I would be able to handle it emotionally. I also have less of a love for medicine and a way much bigger love for animals. I also wonder if my interest is high enough to pull myself all the way through vet school...
By the way, have you ever thought about being a vet tech? I applied for a vet tech school, (while doing pre vet) because I can't decide what to do. 😕
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Along these lines, I'm beginning to think (like a lot of other fields) job satisfaction/burn out can be highly associated with who you work for and with. I've worked for or with 10 vets in the past 5 years. Not one of them has ever said that I should not go to vet school, or that the profession was craptastic. However, several of them have admitted that they were not happy with where they were at due to scheduling, busy-ness or slowness of the clinic's business, pay, difficulty of getting days off, benefits or lack there of, etc. Once you find a position and company that fits for you, your schedule, and life needs, this can definitely be an absolutely amazing profession.
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I think some of the problems going on with vet med right now are due to the economy and, as I said before, the economy has to get better someday! I don't think a big hole is going to open up in the ground and swallow the US. Life goes on, time goes on, nothing lasts forever, including hard times!
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I know this may make me sound very young and naive, but I don't think there is anything that someone could say to deter me from perusing veterinary medicine.
-I love science. My backup for vet school would be a PhD in Animal Phys or Neurology.
- I am a problem solver. I love taking a complex situation and breaking it down to find an answer.
- I thrive under pressure and am happiest when I am running around like a chicken with its head cut off. I can not stand being mentally bored. It physically brings me pain.
-As I become more mature (haha, with my whole 21 years and all) I am learning to balance my emotional side with my rational side.
- Animals bring me joy beyond anything else. Whether it is spending ten minutes with them or listening to a lecture about them, I am happy.
- I love working outside and would feel trapped at a desk job. I get an immense feeling of satisfaction when I come home at the end of the day tired and bruised.
- I have no desire for a life of luxury. As long as I have a roof over my head, a vehicle that runs and a job I enjoy I will be happy (<--Easy to say now, I know)
I'm pretty much saying this because I know, without a doubt, that this is the career for me. It is such a huge investment of time and money I do not think anyone should enter vet school having doubts in their mind. (Current/past vet students feel free to prove me wrong)
-I love science. My backup for vet school would be a PhD in Animal Phys or Neurology.
- I am a problem solver. I love taking a complex situation and breaking it down to find an answer.
- I thrive under pressure and am happiest when I am running around like a chicken with its head cut off. I can not stand being mentally bored. It physically brings me pain.
-As I become more mature (haha, with my whole 21 years and all) I am learning to balance my emotional side with my rational side.
- Animals bring me joy beyond anything else. Whether it is spending ten minutes with them or listening to a lecture about them, I am happy.
- I love working outside and would feel trapped at a desk job. I get an immense feeling of satisfaction when I come home at the end of the day tired and bruised.
- I have no desire for a life of luxury. As long as I have a roof over my head, a vehicle that runs and a job I enjoy I will be happy (<--Easy to say now, I know)
I'm pretty much saying this because I know, without a doubt, that this is the career for me. It is such a huge investment of time and money I do not think anyone should enter vet school having doubts in their mind. (Current/past vet students feel free to prove me wrong)
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A lot of these apply to me, as well. I've been reading a lot about the negative side of vet med, but honestly, it hasn't deterred me in the slightest. I'm still super excited about vet school! I know that every job has its crappy parts, and vet med is no different in that respect. It's actually really good to go into school knowing what the difficult parts of the profession are. But we can't let all of that stuff get us down. If vet med consisted of nothing but those bad parts, then no one would be going to vet school! At the risk of sounding naive, I truly believe that I will enjoy being a vet, and I have no doubt that this is the right career for me.
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I have to second this. I'm not a non-traditional student (and I'm not a storied poster here, but I've lurked for nearly 6 months), but I've been lucky enough to spend time in a variety of experiences behind-the-scenes. Kennel workers and aides are kind of like a fly on the wall. They hear all the bitching and the rejoicing, all the complaining and laughing, and go right on doing the laundry (at least, every kennel worker I know has agreed with me). I've worked in a clinic where every single doctor was miserable. This was a mixed animal practice, with a 20 year vet, a 7 year vet, and a 2 year fresh-out. They all hated their job and looked forward to nothing except their next vacation. It was sad, because I've wanted to be a vet for a long time, and that experience seriously made me question whether I truly wanted to do this.
Then, for the last 3 years, I've had the distinct privilege of working in both an exclusively equine practice, and a small animal hospital. In the equine practice, both doctors are established (15 and 25 years out of school). One is very jaded, but I think that's just a part of his personality... he's really a hoot. But the other I know truly enjoys his work. There's always a bit of good-natured complaining (we all know horse owners and vets are kind of a breed apart 😛), but there's also a true passion for the work. In the small animal hospital, there are two older vets (about 20 years out for both) and two younger vets (class of 2006 and 2008). They have a fantastic "gel" that makes them a joy to work for, and while I know the pace of the practice stresses everyone out (work-ins, taking call (easily the biggest generator of stress here), short appointments, client cost limits, and general insanity), not a single person has ever given me even the slightest hint that I should not enter the profession, much less told me directly that I should choose another profession.
Now that I've written a novel about things, I guess what I'm trying to do is agree with kat. I think that the environment in which you practice has as much or as more to do with the satisfaction of not only the doctors, but all the staff, as does the inherent stresses of the profession (pushing ethical boundaries, the need to pay bills and earn a salary, balancing work and personal life, etc.). Feel free to disagree / tell me I'm wrong / etc. I have never been a practicing DVM, hell I haven't even hit vet school yet. But that's just what I've noticed from behind the washing machine.
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This is something the doc who owns the practice I work at has mentioned. At the start of "The Recession," they saw a correlating and dramatic drop in business- most people just keeping up with the bare minimum vaccinations, serious drop in dental care, postponing surgeries, etc. It's starting to pick back up now, according to the people who are in the know.
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While just about everyone here will probably agree that too much optimism is harmful, I'm not sure what the verdict is on if too much pessimism is bad. Being pessimistic and realistic ARE NOT the same thing. Someone who is realistic recognizes there are challenges standing between them and their goal, perhaps serious ones, but they search long and hard to find a way to overcome those challenges. Only after the realistic person has exhausted every option, will they throw in the towell and admit defeat. In contrast, the pessimistic person gives up without trying or without trying very hard. Moral of the story: realism will take us further than pessimism.
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Ah, well, guess I need to turn my vet student card in.... apparently I don't have the true animal blood running through my veins. 🙄 Apparently someone should notify all the vet schools that they should boot out any student that ever has enough hardship in their life to question whether this sacrifice is worth it. 😴
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Okay, I'm gonna shake things up here and ask the vets contributing to this thread: what do you like about your job? What are the things that keep you coming back to work each day? What are the things that you feel so lucky that you are able to do? And if there are only a few things that are good about your current job, do you think it's more to do with the profession, or the actual place where you work?
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My reasons for sticking with it are...
1. The paycheck.... I'm the sole breadwinner in our house and can't afford to take a pay cut to a non-vet job.
2. I enjoy most of my coworkers. I have a few problem employees, but most of them are good people.
3. Occasionally (once every week or two, maybe?), I get a case where I feel like I made a difference.... for example, SugarFifiFluffyFidolicious and her skin problems, as well a cat that I diagnosed with a kidney infection. Both of those animals would have continued to suffer if they were treated by some of the other awful "vets" in this area, so I hopefully made a difference for both of them. We'll see how SFFF is doing at her recheck in a few weeks, but her owners seemed appreciative of the path that we were taking so far. Kidney infection cat's owners berated me for the amount of money that they were having to spend on their cat, but hopefully they'll at least be able to afford to recheck and continuing the meds for her... and if she gets better, maybe they'll understand why I recommended "all those expensive tests." We'll see.
4. This is lame, but since I'm being honest.... My entire family told me that I was making a huge mistake by going into veterinary medicine; it would be completely humiliating to prove them right. I realize that's completely ridiculous, but it's honestly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of changing careers.
I definitely think my issues are more with the profession as a whole (at least in this particular part of the country) than my specific job. As I said, I've been out of veterinary school for 5 years and this is my 4th job.... and honestly, this is the best job I've had so far. When I think back to pre-vet jobs (in a different part of the country, with a very different class of pet owners), I realize that the issues in those hospitals would likely be different from what I'm currently experiencing, but still not really any better. I think the biggest issue for most associate veterinarians is that your veterinary training TEACHES you to develop opinions, think critically, and work independently. Then, you get out into "the real world" and realize that your employers don't WANT you think independently. In one of my pre-vet jobs, I heard a practice owner berate an associate doctor for telling clients it was okay to use vinegar/water or OTC ear cleaners - "we are an animal hospital and we SELL animal supplies!!!" Now that I'm a management role, I totally get where that owner was coming from.... but it's hard to accept that when you've gone to vet school in order to develop your own medical opinions. In addition to all of the common ethical issues, I've been required to use unsafe anesthesia protocols, dispense heartworm prevention without a heartworm test, give a certain number of injections with each patient visit, use certain nutraceuticals that I didn't think were effective, etc. One or more of these things has been present at each practice I've worked at... and I find it hard to believe that my luck is just THAT bad!
For what it's worth, this whole discussion has triggered me to do a lot of thinking in the last few days! My husband & I are re-evaluating our budget and I'm starting to consider some careers completely outside of the veterinary field. Like I said, I can't afford to make a change just yet... but if we start planning, maybe I can get out soon. We'll see.
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Chickenlittle, thank you so much for your thorough and honest sharing of your experiences with us. I've never before had the opportunity to gain such an intimate perspective on the hardships of the profession.
I truly hope that you will find yourself in a career where you will be happy. 🙂
I truly hope that you will find yourself in a career where you will be happy. 🙂
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See. this is one of the huge misgivings I have had about veterinary medicine since I started shadowing at private practice clinics--I HATE the business aspect of it, pushing the staff to do more more more, to bring in more money. Yes, I know it is a business and hence needs to make a profit, but it is very off-putting to me. From what I've seen these vets end up seeing their patients/clients as "jobs", hurrying from one to the next and trying to sell more. Blech.
I know I do not want to do private practice, and I'm hoping I won't end up having to. My dream job would be working in wildlife conservation, but if that proves to be too competitive for me I definitely want to try out shelter medicine. Ideally, I would like to work for a nonprofit whatever I end up doing. I'm not sure, though, if the working conditions would be any better or different.
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Sometimes I wish I could go to school for free, live for free, and work for free.
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The business issue isn't something I enjoy either, but unfortunately it tends to invade many aspects of the field. If you can find a niche that doesn't deal with it, don't give the secret out because we're all going to follow you 😉
Many shelters struggle with cost, so the money issue isn't likely to go away.
You may not have to "sell" more, but you still have to be extremely budget conscious even at a shelter or non-profit. Every penny counts.
Do we feel the cheap food so more animals can eat, or do we feed the better food but feed fewer? Do we spend X dollars to fix this fracture, or do we spend X dollars to vaccinate Y pets instead? How can we do it cheaper and faster so we can accommodate more animals? Non-profits can struggle to pay their bills too, just like an ailing practice.
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Wildlife conservation was my dream as well... but, like I said, you've gotta pay the bills somehow 🙂 Shelter medicine is definitely more feasible, but comes with its own pressures. Shelters have very limited budgets, so there are still a lot of financial decisions at play... it's just that your "client" is the shelter manager and not individuals. Shelter medicine also can be very fast-paced, from what I've heard from friends who have entered that field (most didn't stay in it for very long). The ads that I've seen for shelter vets, for example, typically emphasize being able to perform 30+ surgeries per day AND treat sick pets AND do other management responsibilities.
Not sure if you guys are already aware of this, but here's the main job listing site for veterinarians. It may be interesting for you guys to poke around on it for a bit: http://jobs.avma.org/jobs If you enter your zip code, it'll sort jobs by their proximity to you. If you click on "function" and then "veterinarian," it'll show you only the veterinarian positions. Hope that helps! Also, there's www.aawv.net for wildlife vet jobs, plus www.aza.org & www.aazv.org for zoos.
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I sat there asking myself "why are they laughing at me for a simple typo?" for a good while before it occurred to me to click on the link I'd posted. Oops.
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Ahahahaha that's great. Lmao.
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Do vets get paid a lot in California or something? I saw listings on the AVMA jobs site, in my area, offering salaries of up to $120,000 (and mentioned nothing about being a specialist) 😱 What the heck?
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They typically have a higher pay in CA because there is a higher cost of living.
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Yes, salaries typically are higher in California.... but also check at the bottom of the ad, just above the map, in the NOTES section. If it says "base plus percentage," or "base plus production," or anything like that, then they aren't actually offering a salary. That range is supposed to give you an indication of what you COULD make if you were to work there and produce a significant income for the company.
Here's one example of how production pay works: an employer might offer to pay you 22% of production with a $50k base. What they're saying is that they'll pay you 22% of the revenue that you generate for the clinic, but they're guaranteeing that they'lll support you at least at the $50k level. All of the exact terms of how your production is calculated, how often it's calculated, which items are included/excluded in calculating production, etc are up to the employer and will be spelled out in your employment contract, but here's a really oversimplified example. If there's a month where you generate $50k in business for the clinic, you'll take home $11k that month ($50,000 x 0.22). If the business is slow the next month, and you only produce $10k for the clinic, you'll still get to take home $4167 ($50,000 / 12). Now, that's where it gets tricky, because some hospitals would make you "pay back" what they overpaid you before you start getting paid the next month, while other hospitals wouldn't... but that really just depends on the hospital and what you negotiate into your contract.
So anyway, the idea is that in order to take home $120,000 in a year, you NEED to produce roughly $550,000 in income for the hospital. (Typical production pay is 20-22%) In California, it's easier to do that because prices are higher... but just keep in mind that if the ad says anything about production pay, you are NOT guaranteed that $120k. They're just saying that their hospital is busy enough that the possibility for $120k exists, IF you're willing to work your butt off for it.
(This coming from the girl who was so busy yesterday that she just about locked herself in the bathroom for a nervous breakdown.... two doctors, two techs, FIFTY patients by the time the day was over. And you know what the worst part is? Because I'm such a "team player" and helped my associate doc out a few times when the techs were busy, and because she's someone who likes to jump in and take all of the high-dollar cases, my production for yesterday SUCKED. Thankfully I'm still on a guaranteed salary for a little while longer.)
Here's one example of how production pay works: an employer might offer to pay you 22% of production with a $50k base. What they're saying is that they'll pay you 22% of the revenue that you generate for the clinic, but they're guaranteeing that they'lll support you at least at the $50k level. All of the exact terms of how your production is calculated, how often it's calculated, which items are included/excluded in calculating production, etc are up to the employer and will be spelled out in your employment contract, but here's a really oversimplified example. If there's a month where you generate $50k in business for the clinic, you'll take home $11k that month ($50,000 x 0.22). If the business is slow the next month, and you only produce $10k for the clinic, you'll still get to take home $4167 ($50,000 / 12). Now, that's where it gets tricky, because some hospitals would make you "pay back" what they overpaid you before you start getting paid the next month, while other hospitals wouldn't... but that really just depends on the hospital and what you negotiate into your contract.
So anyway, the idea is that in order to take home $120,000 in a year, you NEED to produce roughly $550,000 in income for the hospital. (Typical production pay is 20-22%) In California, it's easier to do that because prices are higher... but just keep in mind that if the ad says anything about production pay, you are NOT guaranteed that $120k. They're just saying that their hospital is busy enough that the possibility for $120k exists, IF you're willing to work your butt off for it.
(This coming from the girl who was so busy yesterday that she just about locked herself in the bathroom for a nervous breakdown.... two doctors, two techs, FIFTY patients by the time the day was over. And you know what the worst part is? Because I'm such a "team player" and helped my associate doc out a few times when the techs were busy, and because she's someone who likes to jump in and take all of the high-dollar cases, my production for yesterday SUCKED. Thankfully I'm still on a guaranteed salary for a little while longer.)
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chickenlittle, production is something that I've discussed with the vets I've worked with many times. My concern is that vets start charging clients extra for things they don't necessarily need just to get their production higher. One of the vets I work with used to work in a large emergency hospital that was production based. Her boss used to get angry with her when she wanted to do a procedure with local anesthetic or none at all because he wanted the pet to go under full anesthesia so that the client would have to pay more.
The hospital that I worked under initially as a tech doesn't do production so the vets didn't have to worry about that. The vet used to go in with estimates saying "here is the best option for Fluffy and here is the less expensive option if you can't afford the best". Does that still happen in hospitals that work off of production? Do you find that you want to recommend extra tests or insist on one type of treatment because you know you'll make more money off of it? I worked as a receptionist in a clinic that used production and one day two of the vets had a bet going as to who could bring in the most income that day. They were ordering expensive, unnecessary tests like crazy.
Thanks for posting here. It can be scary to see that side of vet med, but I'm glad that I'm getting a look at it now.
The hospital that I worked under initially as a tech doesn't do production so the vets didn't have to worry about that. The vet used to go in with estimates saying "here is the best option for Fluffy and here is the less expensive option if you can't afford the best". Does that still happen in hospitals that work off of production? Do you find that you want to recommend extra tests or insist on one type of treatment because you know you'll make more money off of it? I worked as a receptionist in a clinic that used production and one day two of the vets had a bet going as to who could bring in the most income that day. They were ordering expensive, unnecessary tests like crazy.
Thanks for posting here. It can be scary to see that side of vet med, but I'm glad that I'm getting a look at it now.
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The emphasis on production and financial numbers is much higher in my current job than in previous jobs. On a weekly basis, I am given a number of statistics regarding my performance for the last week, including: average patients per day, average charge per patient, number of tests I performed on each sick pet (I never hit their "target" on that), number of medications per sick pet (again, I always fall short on that one), etc.
Overall, I don't feel that production pay has necessarily pushed me to recommend "unnecessary" tests.... but it does perhaps make me more likely to recommend all of the tests that I'd LIKE to perform. In previous jobs where I was more likely to say "yeah, it'd be nice to know if the dog has XYZ, but they won't wanna pay for that so I won't even suggest it." Now, I'm more likely to offer it and give clients the option. I don't feel that my personal quality of medicine has changed because of it, but at the same time I'm constantly asking myself "I AM recommending this because it's best for the patient and not because of finances, right?" It would certainly be easier to stop asking myself that question and fall victim to the production mentality (and I am sure there are veterinarians who do just that), but so far I'm resisting pretty well.
Overall, I don't feel that production pay has necessarily pushed me to recommend "unnecessary" tests.... but it does perhaps make me more likely to recommend all of the tests that I'd LIKE to perform. In previous jobs where I was more likely to say "yeah, it'd be nice to know if the dog has XYZ, but they won't wanna pay for that so I won't even suggest it." Now, I'm more likely to offer it and give clients the option. I don't feel that my personal quality of medicine has changed because of it, but at the same time I'm constantly asking myself "I AM recommending this because it's best for the patient and not because of finances, right?" It would certainly be easier to stop asking myself that question and fall victim to the production mentality (and I am sure there are veterinarians who do just that), but so far I'm resisting pretty well.
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Holy crap. FIFTY patients and two docs? Did you even get a lunch yesterday? 🙁
The corporate vet hospital where I work also is production-based. The doctors look at their production at the end of each day. Even when they know a client can't pay for everything, they order up the entire set of diagnostics and put it on the plan, and then the techs have to mark in the computers that the client declines the treatment plan suggested. I don't like the mentality that production can sometimes create. I know that the vets aren't money-grubbing, but the pressure on them to generate revenue for the hospital leads them to take on cases that will make us money but put a significant strain on the team as far as time and effort are concerned (i.e. taking in a surgery even after the O shows up very late AND the dog had diarrhea the night before. Or taking in an vomiting/diarrhea/not eating possible FB obstruction P 10 mins before closing instead of sending them to the EC). And we techs are not immune from production, either. We are constantly hounded to suggest flea preventatives, heartworm preventatives, shampoos, toothpaste, and the health plans to each owner. At the team meeting each week, it's the same old spiel: we need to "make plan" this week, sell more health plans, etc. It is definitely off-putting. While I truly do believe that each patient would be healthiest having all of that stuff, and I do honestly explain to the Os why I think so, sometimes I feel like these well-intentioned talks with Os actually push them away, because they came into the hospital for one thing (i.e. rabies shot) and here we are, trying to get them to do a heartworm test, blood work, full set of vaccines, etc. Yes, their animals do need those things, and we let them know that, but I also think that this rigid "presentation" we give to clients can make us look negative and like we "just want their money" and it sometimes will push them away so that they don't come back.
My question is this: what are the different types of pay options for vets at hospitals? Are most of them production-based these days? And I know this varies according to what part of the country you live in, but what is the average range of base pay for production-based hospitals? And what's the typical percentage that vets get of production? What's the typical salary for non-production-based hospitals?
Also, I want to ask about this, since it's something I know nothing about. How do relief docs get paid? Do they have guaranteed work each week, or is it kind of like being a substitute teacher where you are on a list and hospitals call you?
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Regarding the question of relief vets, it's the latter, although any good relief vet will be booked for months in advance for vacations of regular vets at a multitude of hospitals. It can be very very difficult to find relief 'day of.'
They usually charge a standard fee for a 8-10 hour day.
Around here I have seen, as an example, $350+ for a day. Some charge plenty more...
They usually charge a standard fee for a 8-10 hour day.
Around here I have seen, as an example, $350+ for a day. Some charge plenty more...
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Most veterinarians are either paid on salary or production, although there are occasionally some who are paid an hourly rate instead. I can't remember the exact statistics, but my impression is that a little over half of private practice jobs pay production while a little less than half pay salary. If you are paid salary, production is still typically taken into account in determining your salary. For example, in my last job I had a one-year contract at a salary of $100k. When the year ended, my employer came to me and told me that the clinic was struggling financially (I knew this, because there were a LOT of slow days)... he showed me my production numbers from the previous year, then cut my pay based on production. He calculated 20% of what I had produced in the previous twelve months, which ended up being a new salary $68k. If my production had continued to fall, I'm sure that my salary would have continued to fall accordingly... which is why I got out of that practice.
I've heard of ranges anywhere from 18-25% of production, but most seem to fall into the 20-22% category. There's a lot of variation, though, in terms of what's included. Some practices don't include medications in that calculation, while some do. Some practices include meds, but at a lower rate. Some do complicated math to subtract out the 'cost of goods.' It totally varies by hospital, but 20-22% is a good ballpark. If you work at the corporation I think you work at, the doctor pay is calculated on their net revenue (not gross) and is at the low end of that 18-25% range.
It's so hard to guess at average pay ranges. My guess would be that in my area (which is relatively "average" - not in an extremely high-cost area like New England, but also not extremely low cost) bases are typically in the $45-60k range for a FT veterinarian, but then the actual amount of production pay those vets are taking home would be quite variable depending on how busy the hospital is (ie. I'm sacrificing mental health for financial gain!). If I had to guess at salaries, I think ~$70k is the norm in my area.... but I'm not quite sure of that because my employers have always asked what I was making previously and used that as a starting point.
Relief veterinarians usually are paid by the day, although I think some charge by the hour. Usually they are booked in advance to cover for veterinarians who are taking vacations, going to CE, etc. Typical pay for relief vets in my area varies from $250-500/day, depending on the relief vet's reputation and how desperate they are for work. Keep in mind, though, that relief vets are having to pay their own taxes, their own SS/Medicare, and they have no paid benefits.... so the actual amount of pay that they are "taking home" is much lower than that. You have to set yourself up as a business, and then you collect payment from the employer but then pay all of the taxes, etc before paying yourself. (You won't get a W-2 from employer.) I don't know the details because I haven't done it, but that's my understanding.
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I would like to submit a request that I get to live like some of our students; preferably the ones that eat out for every meal, party hard every weekend, carry $7 coffee drinks in daily, have a new (within 3years) car, go on cruises and international trips, etc.
I do worry about loans and debt for new grads, I just sometimes wonder if some folks are taking funding for granted. Like the folks who told me so strongly last year that a roommate was a terrible idea.
I am not above this, though...I have a smart phone, and extra pets, and do take some trips. I'm just always shocked to hear someone that apparently has at least a couple hundred extra dollars for coffee complain about how poor they are, or how unfair the debt is...right before they leave for a cruise in the same year where they travel overseas and take a month long 'pay to play' vet trip.
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Well said, TT.
For me personally, I am considering all kinds of options depending on my school. (Need to figure out if I want to apply for MPH....) My opinions on animals and vet med have changed greatly recently. I've always been too much of a bleeding heart for my detriment and am "toughening" up, so to speak. It makes living in the world easier.
But, when it comes to animals, I'll always bleed for them. The day that I don't, I'll know I lost something vital to my soul.
Best of luck with this tough stuff! I basically live in a sea of stress, so, from the experiences that I've had in the past few years, every day that I'm breathing and not going crazy is a good day. And living my dream of vet med, no matter how I choose to go at it, will be worth all of the hardships and suffering I've undergone.
So, as far as being a vet, don't have unrealistic expectations. You're gonna dislike some things about the job. But, if you end up hating every day you work, there's a problem. You need to restructure your life & your job to avoid suicide 🙂 Live the dream, everyone!!😍
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