A Student Adcom's Thoughts on MCAT Scores

[QofQuimica]

I got a PM asking me about how adcoms use MCAT scores, so I figured I'd post my answer here since some of the rest of you might also want to read it. Before I start, please read this post with the caveat that I am one single adcom at one single medical school. Other medical schools do things differently, and even at my school, other adcoms have different opinions than I do. Also, in the interest of disclosure, this is now my fourth year of being a student adcom, and I have read and voted on several hundred apps. Even so, you should feel free to take my thoughts for what you think they're worth. On that note, let's begin.

My gentle PM writer asked how much MCAT scores really matter to the adcom. My answer to this would be that if your score is too low, it matters a lot. What is too low? I would define the cut point as being around 27-28. Below a 27, you are much more likely to be screened out for your score. On the other hand, if you have a 30 or better, your MCAT score is not likely to be an issue. If you have a 35 or better, you are among the most elite applicants in terms of MCAT scores. Basically, if you don't get into medical school with a 35+ MCAT, it's you, not us.

Related question: how impressed is the adcom with a 40+ MCAT? This varies tremendously. Personally, it doesn't affect my evaluation at all if person A has a 35 and person B has a 40. Once you get to the high 30s, you reach a point where doing better on the MCAT gives diminishing returns IMO. However, there are other members of my school's adcom who are more stats-oriented and like seeing applicants with very high scores.

Next question: is it true that multiple retakes of the MCAT will hurt you? My answer to this would be that it depends. My school takes all MCAT scores into consideration, not just the most recent score. If you retake and improve significantly (which I would define as a change of 3+ points), it's possible that you will be asked about your improvement during an interview, but yes, that will help you, especially if your retake score is 30+. If you retake and go down, yes, that will work to your disadvantage, especially if it's a significant drop. If you retake and score the same (or within 1-2 points), it depends. Personally, I do tend to look at this as being an unwise decision by the applicant, especially if the first score was already 30+. However, it's not an automatic dealbreaker. I think my position is probably pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to this--some adcoms care more, and others don't care.

Next question: what do we think about a person with a high MCAT and a low GPA? Again, it depends on why the GPA is low. If the person is a nontrad with poor grades from several years ago and they have since done well in a post bac (which I define as a 3.8+ GPA), then the overall GPA won't matter to me as much even if it's still fairly low compared to our average. If the student is a trad who has shown a trend of improvement during college (i.e., a bad freshman year and then a strong sophomore and especially junior year), again, that will make the overall GPA matter less to me. But if the grades are consistently low, and especially if the grades have gone down over time as the student started taking harder science courses, that will be a red flag to me. Med school science classes tend to be as rigorous if not more rigorous than college classes, so I don't want to see people's grades going down when the going gets tough, even if their MCAT score is high.

Last question: do MCAT scores really predict board scores? They are correlated, but it's not an extremely strong correlation. The USMLE is a different kind of test than the MCAT is, much more information based. The people who do the best on Step 1 are people who work hard during their preclinical years and study hard for the test.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you all.

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[bridgestone]

how do adcoms view poor grades due to a major health issue?

 

[QofQuimica]

how do adcoms view poor grades due to a major health issue?

As with all applicants with a history of a poor academic record, we would want to see improvement over time, either in the later years of college or in a postbac/SMP. It would also be important for your health issue to be resolved such that it won't interfere with your medical school work--this is an issue to consider from your perspective as well as from ours.

 

[QofQuimica]

Here is another question I was asked by PM that I thought some of you might also find helpful:

This person wanted to know if, once you are invited for an interview, is it the case that your numbers have been deemed worthy and will not be looked at again?

I'm sure this varies by school. At my school, we do often discuss the applicant's stats during our post-interview meetings. So no, I wouldn't say that the numbers would not be looked at again after the interview. If you consider that we're evaluating applicants holistically, it makes sense that we would consider everything together (including stats) when we make our final admissions decision, and not only the interview.

 

[liveoak]

do you like sports? how do you feel about premed that don't like sports?

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

Hey Q, thank you for your time.

I was wondering how you analyze upward trends and undergrad attended? I had good grades at my first school, and then they dropped when I transferred to a more rigorous university, and now this year they are coming back up. I had trouble at first, but am doing better after having time to adjust (A's in orgo, neurobio, etc. this year). My overall will still be low due to the first bad year though, and I haven't got my MCAT back yet (took 4/16). I was averaging low-mid 30's during prep if that helps (which it really doesn't ).

 

[QofQuimica]

I was wondering how you analyze upward trends and undergrad attended? I had good grades at my first school, and then they dropped when I transferred to a more rigorous university, and now this year they are coming back up. I had trouble at first, but am doing better after having time to adjust (A's in orgo, neurobio, etc. this year). My overall will still be low due to the first bad year though, and I haven't got my MCAT back yet (took 4/16). I was averaging low-mid 30's during prep if that helps (which it really doesn't ).

I really can't answer this without knowing the entire context of your app. But it sounds like you've shown improvement after an adjustment period, and yes, I would consider that an upward trend, especially if you are a disadvantaged applicant.

 

[Bayonetwork]

Hey Q, how do you view letters of intent?

-I know many people send them in with any updates they have to grades or EC's but what about in regards to a post-interview letter briefly discussing your intentions in applying to that specific school, why you feel you are a good fit/qualified after having interviewed, etc?

-Obviously you dont want to sound desperate or suck up in anyway but it seems like an LOI to this extent may at least set you apart from someone who just went to the interview and has no further contact until their fate is determined. What does an ideal post-interview relationship/contact look like?

 

[rrmix]

Hello, thank you for taking the time to answer all of our questions.


I took the MCAT last may and got a 27O (11 6 10) and just got my scores back for this 3/26 test and got a 35R (14 8 13). I was wondering if the 27 would hold me back at all, I just had a bad day I guess, but I'm not sure how to take that into account when I'm choosing schools to apply to?

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey Q, how do you view letters of intent?

First, a quick definition of terms is in order to make sure that you and I are talking about the same thing. People often use the acronym "LOI" to mean either "letter of interest" or "letter of intent," but these aren't the same.

A letter of interest is basically reaffirming your interest in the school, but you ain't making any promises. Often, people will write letters of interest when they submit updates to schools. So for example, when you get your fall grades back, you can submit an updated transcript along with a letter stating that you are still very interested in attending that school. At my school, the updates are useful and will be passed along to the adcom. However, the letter of interest itself will not do anything to help your app. It won't hurt anything either, but I wouldn't waste your time writing a long and extensive one.

A letter of intent, on the other hand, *is* a promise, wherein you state that you will attend that school and withdraw from your other schools if you are accepted. Obviously, you should only send one letter of intent, and only to your top choice school. Different schools have different policies concerning letters of intent. At my school, letters of intent should only be written in the spring by people who are on the waitlist. These letters go to the Admissions Dean, who takes them into account when selecting people off the waitlist. (Please note that our waitlist is not ranked; however, some schools do rank their waitlists, and a letter of intent might not be helpful at those schools.)

-I know many people send them in with any updates they have to grades or EC's but what about in regards to a post-interview letter briefly discussing your intentions in applying to that specific school, why you feel you are a good fit/qualified after having interviewed, etc?

This is basically like a letter of interest. Again, not going to help one iota at my school, although sending in any significant updates is usually a good idea.

-Obviously you dont want to sound desperate or suck up in anyway but it seems like an LOI to this extent may at least set you apart from someone who just went to the interview and has no further contact until their fate is determined. What does an ideal post-interview relationship/contact look like?

My personal preference for letters of intent is for people to just take the simple and direct approach. A single paragraph stating that our school is your top choice, and that you will withdraw from all other schools to matriculate here if accepted off the waitlist, is pretty much all the info that the Admissions Dean needs to know. Again, this applies *only* to people who are currently on the waitlist--if you're not on the waitlist, a letter of intent won't be applicable at my school.

For those who are tempted to write long, heart-felt letters, it's best to keep this principle in mind: what would happen if every applicant did what you're thinking of doing? Well, what would happen in this case is that the Admissions Dean and the rest of the admissions staff would be simply inundated and even more overwhelmed than they already are with all of these lengthy letters. Keep in mind that they are all very busy people, especially around this time of year, and they don't really want or need to read a War and Peace-length tome from every single applicant!

 

[QofQuimica]

I took the MCAT last may and got a 27O (11 6 10) and just got my scores back for this 3/26 test and got a 35R (14 8 13). I was wondering if the 27 would hold me back at all, I just had a bad day I guess, but I'm not sure how to take that into account when I'm choosing schools to apply to?

Congrats, that's a great improvement.

Again, I can't speak for what every school will do. Some schools average MCAT scores, and some use the most recent MCAT scores, and some go by the phases of the moon. At my school, the 35 you got on your retake would pretty much make the 27 irrelevant, assuming the rest of your app is also strong.

As for finding out how all the different schools use multiple MCAT scores, this might be difficult unless you contact every school and ask them what their policy is. That's kind of a pain to do if you plan on applying to a lot of schools, but in my experience as a nontraditional applicant, it was very useful. I went to a small liberal arts college that gives no grades, credit hours, or GPAs, and therefore all of my prereqs were taken P/F. Before applying, I called two dozen schools to explain my situation and submitted my app to 22 of them. The ones I didn't apply to were schools that pretty much dissuaded me from applying. While it's not very boosting for the ego to be told not to bother, I had to appreciate that those schools were honest with me so that both they and I avoided wasting the time and money.

One more thing--I would definitely check each school's website first before calling or emailing to make sure that they don't have their MCAT retake policy posted there. It gets annoying for the admissions staff when they are asked questions that are clearly answered in the FAQs or elsewhere on our website.

 

[TwinsFan]

Q,
When postbacs are weighted "more heavily" for consideration, what does this mean, are they looked at instead of cuGPA or somehow combined with it (beyond the nominal amount they help in the AMCAS calculation)?

Clearly someone who already has a degree is not going to move their GPA by more than a couple tenths with a postbacc, so how many credits/semesters are typically needed to weigh it "heavily"? How about with second bachelor's degrees, will these be weighted "more heavily" for consideration than the first time through?

 

[QofQuimica]

Q,
When postbacs are weighted "more heavily" for consideration, what does this mean, are they looked at instead of cuGPA or somehow combined with it (beyond the nominal amount they help in the AMCAS calculation)?

I'm not sure what that means. At my school, we do look at trends (so improvement over time), but that doesn't mean we don't consider the cum GPA also. Maybe there are some schools that weight the post bac more than the UG GPA. I would see if you can get some more info from the school that told you this.

Clearly someone who already has a degree is not going to move their GPA by more than a couple tenths with a postbacc, so how many credits/semesters are typically needed to weigh it "heavily"? How about with second bachelor's degrees, will these be weighted "more heavily" for consideration than the first time through?

Again, you'd need to ask the school that has this policy. I've never heard of this, and I'm not sure how it works.

Speaking for my school, I'd say that a year of full time post bac or two years of part time post bac would be enough to show a strong upward trend.

 

[oakie]

Hi,

I am applying this year as a second-time applicant (to the same schools). I am writing a new personal statement (PS) for this AMCAS, but I did like my first AMCAS PS very much. I was wondering if med schools usually read both the first and second PS, or just the second PS. My first PS explained my childhood background and personal decisions, etc (I'm a non-trad), but my second PS mostly talks about why I want to be an internist. If med schools usually read just the latest PS, I want to include some of the things that I mentioned in the first PS, but if they do read both PS, I do not to copy and paste the same paragraphs...

Your insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Velour Fog]

[Dwight Schrute voice] Question:

I'm reapplying this year and will probably retake the MCAT in July. My concern is this will lead to me applying late, which I did last year, and I think hampered me quite a bit.

Could you just give me an idea of the best way to go about the entire application process, given that I'm taking the MCAT at a later date, with the hopes of getting everything done and in to schools ASAP?

Kisses <3

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi,

I am applying this year as a second-time applicant (to the same schools). I am writing a new personal statement (PS) for this AMCAS, but I did like my first AMCAS PS very much. I was wondering if med schools usually read both the first and second PS, or just the second PS. My first PS explained my childhood background and personal decisions, etc (I'm a non-trad), but my second PS mostly talks about why I want to be an internist. If med schools usually read just the latest PS, I want to include some of the things that I mentioned in the first PS, but if they do read both PS, I do not to copy and paste the same paragraphs...

Your insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Just to make sure I understand your question, you want to know if we would read last year's PS as well as this year's? I dunno about anyone else, but I sure as heck wouldn't. As if reading all of *this* year's PSes and secondaries wasn't enough!

All kidding aside, more important than whether you re-write your PS is whether you found out what the weaknesses were in your app and did what was necessary to fix them. It is highly unlikely that your PS singlehandedly kept you from being accepted to medical school this year. Whatever issues you had, those are what you want to work on.

I would also caution you against focusing your PS on the topic of why you want to be an internist. You're applying for med school, not residency. When you write your residency PS, *then* you will want to explain why internal med! Right now, you should be focusing more on why medicine at all, especially since you're a nontrad. Besides, it's entirely possible that you will wind up in something completely different anyway; many if not most people change their minds once they hit third year and start rotating through all the major specialties.

Best of luck with your apps--come visit us in the Nontrad forum.

 

[QofQuimica]

[Dwight Schrute voice] Question:

I'm reapplying this year and will probably retake the MCAT in July. My concern is this will lead to me applying late, which I did last year, and I think hampered me quite a bit.

Could you just give me an idea of the best way to go about the entire application process, given that I'm taking the MCAT at a later date, with the hopes of getting everything done and in to schools ASAP?

Kisses <3

Same advice for you as for this person.

 

[Velour Fog]

Same advice for you as for this person.

So submit ASAP, then add on 99% of the schools after the MCAT scores come back...

Does this advice still hold if I have a previous MCAT score?

Lastly, what's the reasoning to only listing one school pre-verification, rather than just listing all of them?

You're doing God's work here, you benevolent soul. Thanks!

 

[nontradguy84]

So, you mentioned about legacy. How real is that? For example, my dad went to two different med schools, UNR and then transferred to an ivy league. I'm really interested in UNR anyway, but even if I weren't, would it be advantageous to apply there over other schools of that caliber? I'm assuming that med school's version of "legacy" isn't exactly the same as fraternities' version. haha. I guess I'm wondering how much legacy matters...

 

[ReptarBar]

QofQuimica, my GPA in the first two years was a 3.9+ (this was when i took all my pre-req's), but i've gotten tons of B's this third year and even a NP because i couldn't drop a class after i missed a midterm (will retake my upcoming senior year). if i get all A's my senior year then apply, do you think that this upward gain coupled with the fact i owned pre-reqs (A or A- in all except biochem) will counteract my bad junior year? my overall gpa now is a 3.76, and will rise to about a 3.84 if i get all A's in the future. i also got a 35R mcat score.

 

[QofQuimica]

So submit ASAP, then add on 99% of the schools after the MCAT scores come back...

Does this advice still hold if I have a previous MCAT score?

I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't. You will just indicate on AMCAS that you are retaking the MCAT.

Lastly, what's the reasoning to only listing one school pre-verification, rather than just listing all of them?

Absolutely it's fine to apply to all of them up front if you want to. The main reason why people often choose to just add one school to get verified is because they may apply to a different set of schools depending on what their score is. Once you submit AMCAS to a school, you can withdraw your app at any time, but you can't get your money back if you have second thoughts later because your MCAT score is lower than you expected.

For someone in your situation (eg, having a previous score), people also sometimes like to wait because they want to make sure the schools evaluate them based on the new score. This shouldn't be necessary, because again, the schools will see that you indicated on AMCAS that you are retaking. But if it makes you feel better to wait until your score comes back, it won't be the end of the world as long as you are ready to hit the ground running in August.

You're doing God's work here, you benevolent soul. Thanks!

You're welcome--hope it helps, and best of luck.

 

[QofQuimica]

So, you mentioned about legacy. How real is that? For example, my dad went to two different med schools, UNR and then transferred to an ivy league. I'm really interested in UNR anyway, but even if I weren't, would it be advantageous to apply there over other schools of that caliber? I'm assuming that med school's version of "legacy" isn't exactly the same as fraternities' version. haha. I guess I'm wondering how much legacy matters...

I'm sure the evaluation of legacy status is different at different schools, but I wouldn't count on it to give you a leg up. For most public schools, being a state resident is the most helpful status to have. So if you're a resident of Nevada, I would strongly recommend applying there, regardless of whether or not you're a legacy candidate.

At my school, being a legacy sometimes gets people interview invites they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. This is called a "courtesy invite." However, these applicants are invariably rejected post-interview.

 

[QofQuimica]

QofQuimica, my GPA in the first two years was a 3.9+ (this was when i took all my pre-req's), but i've gotten tons of B's this third year and even a NP because i couldn't drop a class after i missed a midterm (will retake my upcoming senior year). if i get all A's my senior year then apply, do you think that this upward gain coupled with the fact i owned pre-reqs (A or A- in all except biochem) will counteract my bad junior year? my overall gpa now is a 3.76, and will rise to about a 3.84 if i get all A's in the future. i also got a 35R mcat score.

I really can't answer this without knowing the context of what happened your junior year. However, your overall GPA and MCAT score are both strong, and you obviously won't be screened out even by schools that screen based on stats. I suggest that you focus on doing as well as you can senior year. If you find that you're being put on a lot of pre-interview and post-interview holds, it might help to submit your fall grades to the schools where you've applied. to you.

 

[toooldforthis]

Q,
I am currently about 2 years from the MCAT (as a non trad) going for the "exceptionally mature" only-need-90-semester-hours clause to apply here in Texas.

I can'y say enough how amazing this thread is for quelling some fears and debunking some SDN myths that have propagated through uninformed word of mouth.

Thank you and all of the posters for making this process make some sense.
Guaranteed i will be following this until it dies.

TooOldForThis

 

[MCAT guy]

do you like sports? how do you feel about premed that don't like sports?

Yes I do.

I don't like them because sports are cool.

 

[ReptarBar]

I really can't answer this without knowing the context of what happened your junior year. However, your overall GPA and MCAT score are both strong, and you obviously won't be screened out even by schools that screen based on stats. I suggest that you focus on doing as well as you can senior year. If you find that you're being put on a lot of pre-interview and post-interview holds, it might help to submit your fall grades to the schools where you've applied. to you.

nah i'm applying next cycle. i don't really have an explanation for the bad grades besides having too much fun lol...so if i take a bunch of hard upper divs senior year, rock them, then apply, will my junior year weirdness be overlooked?

 

[QofQuimica]

nah i'm applying next cycle. i don't really have an explanation for the bad grades besides having too much fun lol...so if i take a bunch of hard upper divs senior year, rock them, then apply, will my junior year weirdness be overlooked?

That sounds like a good plan for your senior year; you already know that you're capable of doing better than all Bs. Taking a glide year is reasonable too, as long as you do something useful with it. I won't presume to speak for anyone else, but personally, I'm not very sympathetic to "having too much fun lol" as an explanation for a significant junior year grade drop.

Again though, it's not like you've done irreparable harm to your GPA or anything like that. I don't think your grades will hold you back, especially coupled with a strong MCAT score.

 

[ReptarBar]

yes i don't intend to give excuses...just show my transcript the way it is. do you think i would need to explain the B's and the NP, or can i just leave it (as i intend to do)?

 

[gettheleadout]

I just want to extend a big thank you to Q for taking the time to respond to everyone in this thread, contributions like this from people like her are a major part of why SDN is such a great resource to everyone.

 

[bluv1212]

Hey Q,

I was wondering how you would view someone in my position: My biggest weakness in my application is my low uGPA, (~3.0 cGPA, ~2.8-2.9 sGPA), but I am finishing an SMP with a 4.0 if everything goes according to plan. Would doing well in an SMP be enough to convince you that I am capable of performing in medical school? Thank you.

 

[QofQuimica]

yes i don't intend to give excuses...just show my transcript the way it is. do you think i would need to explain the B's and the NP, or can i just leave it (as i intend to do)?

You mean like in your PS? No, I don't think so--again, it's not like your GPA is low. You should focus your essay on "why medicine." You may get asked about the grades by an interviewer though, so I'd be prepared to discuss them just in case.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey Q,

I was wondering how you would view someone in my position: My biggest weakness in my application is my low uGPA, (~3.0 cGPA, ~2.8-2.9 sGPA), but I am finishing an SMP with a 4.0 if everything goes according to plan. Would doing well in an SMP be enough to convince you that I am capable of performing in medical school? Thank you.

Giving you a chance to prove yourself is the entire reason why SMPs exist. It wouldn't make much sense for you to do an SMP if a stellar performance wouldn't help convince the adcom about your academic readiness for med school!

 

[bluv1212]

I mean that would be the most intuitive answer. However, it seems as though some people that do well in an smp still get screened out because of uGPA. But, thank you. Your answer is assuring.

Giving you a chance to prove yourself is the entire reason why SMPs exist. It wouldn't make much sense for you to do an SMP if a stellar performance wouldn't help convince the adcom about your academic readiness for med school!

 

[QofQuimica]

I mean that would be the most intuitive answer. However, it seems as though some people that do well in an smp still get screened out because of uGPA. But, thank you. Your answer is assuring.

Having a good SMP performance doesn't guarantee that you'll get an invite, any more than having a 4.0 GPA guarantees that. Don't be too quick to take other applicants' analyses of their app results at face value. As I've said, there are many things we consider besides just stats. It's entirely possible that the people you are talking about were screened out for other reasons besides GPA.

 

[toooldforthis]

Assuming you had 2 applicants for one spot equal in every way and well qualified: GPA is good, MCAT is good. One had most classes at Community college while working full time (nintraditional), the other had all classes at Uni.

Would there be a bias based on where undergrad was taken from your point of view?

 

[bluv1212]

Right. Thank you.

Having a good SMP performance doesn't guarantee that you'll get an invite, any more than having a 4.0 GPA guarantees that. Don't be too quick to take other applicants' analyses of their app results at face value. As I've said, there are many things we consider besides just stats. It's entirely possible that the people you are talking about were screened out for other reasons besides GPA.

 

[QofQuimica]

Assuming you had 2 applicants for one spot equal in every way and well qualified: GPA is good, MCAT is good. One had most classes at Community college while working full time (nintraditional), the other had all classes at Uni.

Would there be a bias based on where undergrad was taken from your point of view?

It's tough to answer a question like this with so little context. Just how good of a "good MCAT" you mean here is likely to matter, as might other things like disadvantaged status, specific ECs, and other subjective qualities. Having attended a state school myself, I wouldn't ding someone else for not attending a well-known school as long as their stats (both GPA and MCAT) were strong. I will tell you though that there *is* consideration given to school attended by some people on my school's adcom--often people who went to well-known schools themselves. There is also some concern that CC classes may be inferior in their level of rigorousness. Therefore, I always recommend taking classes at a four year school if possible. If you must attend a CC, I suggest taking some upper level coursework in biology, biochem, or other relevant field at a four year school. It goes without saying that a strong MCAT should be a priority for anyone, but especially for someone coming from an unknown school and/or a CC.

 

[raltima07]

What is considered a strong MCAT? I know you had a awesome score(Any pro tips?), but how about for the regular Joe?

 

[QofQuimica]

What is considered a strong MCAT? I know you had a awesome score(Any pro tips?), but how about for the regular Joe?

Three caveats: First, my school's average MCAT (34-35) is several points above the national allo matriculant average (~31). Second, I have no experience with osteo school admissions, and nothing I say in this post should be assumed to apply to them. Third, there is not a group consensus among the adcom members at my school concerning this question; some of us care more about stats being very high than others.

That being said, let's begin with some context. The MCAT is a curved test, and the median (50th percentile) MCAT score for all test-takers is ~24-25. A 30-31 denotes the top quartile (75th percentile), a 33-34 is the top decile, and >35-36 gets you into the top 5%. I personally would define a strong MCAT as being in the top quartile. That puts you right around the national average for allo matriculants, and it's a good, solid score. Those who agree with this definition will be the ones telling you to aim for a 30. Some people on the adcom here feel that a strong score is the top decile, which would be more in keeping with our school's average. It is definitely true that your app will be more competitive here if you have a 33-34 than if you have a 30-31. There are also some members who consider a strong score to be in the top 5%. This is above our average and not a practical definition, IMO.

For study advice, I strongly recommend that you check out SN2ed's MCAT sticky if you haven't already. It is a compilation of the advice from many high scoring people, including me.

 

[senorsquishie]

I keep hearing about disadvantaged on this thread. How much wiggle room does a disadvanged applicant have? What if there are aditional factors?

For example an average applicatant 3.5 GPA, 30+ MCAT, upward trend from a bad year involving illness+multiple deaths. Strong LOR, personal statements, ECs, Research, Clinical Experence and app in general. Only difference was a bad year with excuses and is disadvantaged according to the AMCAS defination. Do they stand as much of a chance as someone who has slightly better stats?

Thanks for answering all of our questions! This has hands down been one of the most helpful threads I have found!

 

[Lunasly]

Hello,

Thank you for all of the helpful posts! I was just curious to know your opinion regarding taking MCAT preparation courses as opposed to self-study. Did you take a preparation course and would you recommend other students to take the course in hopes of being able to achieve a higher score on the MCAT or do you think it is a waste of time and money?

I was also just curious about EC's. What do you recommend is a decent amount of EC's to list on your AMCAS? Is filling all 15 slots considered excessive? What do you consider to little of a list? Do you consider weight lifting as something not to list on the MCAT and if not, what do you consider is an EC that an applicant should not list on their application? I have heard previous advice that applicants should not be stating anything obvious (i.e. Deans List if it is apparent from your GPA - what are other examples of this?).

Thanks,
Lunasly.

 

[QofQuimica]

I keep hearing about disadvantaged on this thread. How much wiggle room does a disadvanged applicant have? What if there are aditional factors?

Disadvantaged is a spectrum, not a dichotomy. It covers anything from the lower middle-class child of a blue collar worker who is the first person in their family to attend college, all the way to an orphaned refugee who fled ethnic cleansing in their third world country as a teenager with nothing more than the clothes they were wearing, came to the US speaking no English, and managed to do respectably both in college and on the MCAT. Most people who claim disadvantaged status fall somewhere in between.

There is no standard by which all med schools must evaluate disadvantaged candidates. At my school, we look at what the Admissions Dean calls "distance traveled." What this means is that although a person from a disadvantaged background may not have stats that are quite as high in absolute terms, relative to where they started out in life, their academic achievement is very high. If the third world refugee I mentioned above earns a 27 on the MCAT, that is not equivalent to the upper middle-class American child of two physicians earning a 27 on the MCAT.

For example an average applicatant 3.5 GPA, 30+ MCAT, upward trend from a bad year involving illness+multiple deaths. Strong LOR, personal statements, ECs, Research, Clinical Experence and app in general. Only difference was a bad year with excuses and is disadvantaged according to the AMCAS defination. Do they stand as much of a chance as someone who has slightly better stats?

Those stats are reasonable for most med schools even if the applicant were *not* disadvantaged. If those are your stats, you should go ahead and apply. If you would like to claim disadvantaged status, you should explain why on your application. Again, it will then be up to each school to decide how they would like to use this info.

Thanks for answering all of our questions! This has hands down been one of the most helpful threads I have found!

Glad I could help. Best of luck.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you for all of the helpful posts! I was just curious to know your opinion regarding taking MCAT preparation courses as opposed to self-study. Did you take a preparation course and would you recommend other students to take the course in hopes of being able to achieve a higher score on the MCAT or do you think it is a waste of time and money?

I need to start with the disclaimer that I taught classes on and off for Kaplan over a 15 year period. That being said, my recommendation is that you start by introspecting about your learning style, self-motivation, and intensity of review needed. For learning style, some people like to study alone, some like groups, some are more visual, some are more auditory, and so on. For self-motivation, some people are very good at developing their own study plan and sticking to it, while others need some outside help to do this effectively. For intensity of review, some people have been out of school for several years and need intensive review of the sciences, while others have a solid foundation and need much less review. Once you decide where you fall on these three criteria, it will be easier to decide what type of course to do, or even whether to do one at all.

In my case, I'm a lone studier who is more visual than auditory. I'm highly self-motivated. I was very strong in chemistry, especially since I had been teaching it, but it had been over a decade since I took either physics or gen bio. In addition, I was working full-time in the lab as well as teaching part-time, so flexibility was important. Based on these considerations, I decided to go with an online self-study course that allowed me to study on my own, focus solely on the areas where I needed work, and give me maximum flexibility of schedule.

I was also just curious about EC's. What do you recommend is a decent amount of EC's to list on your AMCAS? Is filling all 15 slots considered excessive? What do you consider to little of a list? Do you consider weight lifting as something not to list on the MCAT and if not, what do you consider is an EC that an applicant should not list on their application? I have heard previous advice that applicants should not be stating anything obvious (i.e. Deans List if it is apparent from your GPA - what are other examples of this?).

To paraphrase my high school history teacher, the length of your EC list should be like the length of a miniskirt: long enough to cover the subject, and short enough to be interesting.

Basically, you should list all significant ECs that you have. So if you have 15 significant ECs, you should list all 15. This is a common occurrence for those of us who apply as nontrads and have extensive work and volunteering experience. I can tell you that it was very hard for me to compress 15 years of my life into 15 little slots! However, most trads who have come straight from high school to college and are applying to med school as college juniors will not have 15 significant ECs, and that's perfectly ok. Better to have three to five significant ECs than 15 superficial ones.

I suggest that you start by making a list of every post-secondary (during or after college) EC you can think of. Put down all clubs you belong(ed) to, awards you've won, research you've done, jobs you've held, volunteering you've done, significant hobbies you participate in, and anything else you can think of. Don't try to restrict the list in any way at this point. Once you're done brainstorming, now it's time to whittle the list down: you should go through your list of ECs and decide what you think is significant and interesting. Imagine that you are an adcom reading your own app. Thinking about your level of involvement in the activity, would an adcom care that the you lift weights? If you were competing in powerlifting or bodybuilding competitions during college, that would be something most adcoms would probably find very interesting and significant. But if you lifted weights sporadically here and there, and you're currently completely out of shape, it probably isn't something you should put on your app!

 

[toooldforthis]

Withdrawn, duplicate post.

 

[QofQuimica]

Assuming two applicants are equal (High GPA, Very good MCAT), would you choose one or the other for having mostly Community College vs. University classes?

Caveat- The CC student is a nontraditional student working full time.

Does this show an increased desire along with aptitude for the sciences and harder material?

What have you seen in regards to CC hours?

It's easy enough to say "all else being equal," but all else never *is* equal. I really can't add anything more to my answer about this topic from a few days ago. Please see my post on CC classes further up on this page if you haven't already.

 

[UTman7777]

Thanks for the time and info.

My question was about the ability of pre health advisors, professors, or rich parents to get students into medical school. I know in the business world there is a fair share of networking that goes on behind close doors and I feel that it would be the same here. Does that happen a lot and if so can you give some examples.

i.e. An advisors knows another person on the adcom and tells them they have a student that is doing well and the app does not give the whole story. You should look closer..

Thanks again for the info.

 

[muhali3]

There are many people on this forum who've said that despite direct connections they had to adcoms, it didn't benefit them in the application process. Business is much different.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks for the time and info.

My question was about the ability of pre health advisors, professors, or rich parents to get students into medical school. I know in the business world there is a fair share of networking that goes on behind close doors and I feel that it would be the same here. Does that happen a lot and if so can you give some examples.

i.e. An advisors knows another person on the adcom and tells them they have a student that is doing well and the app does not give the whole story. You should look closer..

Thanks again for the info.

My experience has been that connections can help an applicant get an interview they might not have gotten otherwise (i.e. courtesy invites), but this does not increase the applicant's chances of getting accepted. If anything, it might make things worse to have someone advocate on an applicant's behalf too strongly, especially if their app is too weak to compete on its own. No one on the adcom likes feeling like we're being strong-armed. There is also increased sensitivity to the need for diversifying the physician workforce, which particularly works against the phenomenon of legacy applicants getting into med school based primarily on their family connections. Finally, we have substantial outside pressure from the administration to keep our incoming class's average stats well above average. That makes it a lot harder for candidates with subpar stats to get accepted, regardless of whom they know. The accepted applicants with the lowest stats are usually disadvantaged applicants, and these folks tend to be *less* well-connected, not more.

Does it ever happen that people get in based in part on having connections? Maybe. But for the reasons I gave, I do think our decision-making process is overall pretty resistant to that kind of manipulation. I can't speak to what goes on at other schools, of course.

 

[whalewind]

QofQuimica,

I realize this question has been somewhat answered by your past posts, but I really wanted an honest, firsthand opinion on this since I just received my scores back and wanted a bit of clarification. On most of my practice exams I was scoring in the 37-38 range and my actual score was a 35 (13 PS, 11 V, 11 BS). While I am very thankful at having achieved a 35 and am satisfied with it, I am considering a retake. Why? For one reason, I gave it before junior year of college even started, so while I'm sitting here in Biochem, I am making extra connections in my coursework I had not before and feel like I am suddenly understanding the material on a much deeper level. This is just the third week into junior year. Next, I feel that with a month or so of hard work and revision I can definitely bring that score up to about a 37 or 38 at least. I ask because it is my dream to go to a top tier school close to home so I can remain close to my family. I sincerely think I can score higher, but wanted to know if a 38 is looked at THAT differently from a 35. My GPA is around a 3.89 at a small liberal arts school if that helps any.

Thank you for the help and time, it is much appreciated!

 

[aspiring20]

QofQuimica,

I realize this question has been somewhat answered by your past posts, but I really wanted an honest, firsthand opinion on this since I just received my scores back and wanted a bit of clarification. On most of my practice exams I was scoring in the 37-38 range and my actual score was a 35 (13 PS, 11 V, 11 BS). While I am very thankful at having achieved a 35 and am satisfied with it, I am considering a retake. Why? For one reason, I gave it before junior year of college even started, so while I'm sitting here in Biochem, I am making extra connections in my coursework I had not before and feel like I am suddenly understanding the material on a much deeper level. This is just the third week into junior year. Next, I feel that with a month or so of hard work and revision I can definitely bring that score up to about a 37 or 38 at least. I ask because it is my dream to go to a top tier school close to home so I can remain close to my family. I sincerely think I can score higher, but wanted to know if a 38 is looked at THAT differently from a 35. My GPA is around a 3.89 at a small liberal arts school if that helps any.

Thank you for the help and time, it is much appreciated!

great question!

i am also in a similar position. i got a 35 on the MCAT (11,15,9), and i am wondering if there truly is a meaningful difference between a 35 and a 38+?

also, is a 3.6 cGPA/3.3 sGPA and 35 a reasonable stats combo for your school?

 

[QofQuimica]

QofQuimica,

I realize this question has been somewhat answered by your past posts, but I really wanted an honest, firsthand opinion on this since I just received my scores back and wanted a bit of clarification. On most of my practice exams I was scoring in the 37-38 range and my actual score was a 35 (13 PS, 11 V, 11 BS). While I am very thankful at having achieved a 35 and am satisfied with it, I am considering a retake. Why? For one reason, I gave it before junior year of college even started, so while I'm sitting here in Biochem, I am making extra connections in my coursework I had not before and feel like I am suddenly understanding the material on a much deeper level. This is just the third week into junior year. Next, I feel that with a month or so of hard work and revision I can definitely bring that score up to about a 37 or 38 at least. I ask because it is my dream to go to a top tier school close to home so I can remain close to my family. I sincerely think I can score higher, but wanted to know if a 38 is looked at THAT differently from a 35. My GPA is around a 3.89 at a small liberal arts school if that helps any.

Thank you for the help and time, it is much appreciated!

There may be some difference between a 35 and a 37-38 in some adcoms' minds, but I wouldn't say it's a huge difference. Once you reach around a 35 on the MCAT, other aspects of your app start mattering a lot more. Top tier schools could easily fill their entire classes with people who have 3.8+ GPAs and 38+ MCAT scores, but they don't. For as much additional benefit as you'd get, I'd argue that you're much better off spending that month working on other aspects of your app, including shoring up ECs. It's very important to make your overall app as strong as possible, not just be strong in one or two areas. The way to make your overall app stronger is to take your weakest area, and work on strengthening that.

When I say "areas," I'm talking about all of the following: grades, MCAT, ECs, essays, LORs, and interviewing skills. Your grades and MCAT score are both stellar. So work on having equally stellar ECs, writing great essays, getting strong LORs, and mock-interviewing.

great question!

i am also in a similar position. i got a 35 on the MCAT (11,15,9), and i am wondering if there truly is a meaningful difference between a 35 and a 38+?

See above. I wouldn't recommend that either of you re-take.

also, is a 3.6 cGPA/3.3 sGPA and 35 a reasonable stats combo for your school?

Your GPA is a bit lower than our average and your MCAT is about at the average. So yes, I'd say those stats would be reasonable, assuming the rest of your app is strong.

(I'm saying "our" with the caveat that I graduated a couple of years ago and don't sit on the adcom any more.)