A toss up..EM vs Anesthesia

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Yeah, a friend of mine going into PMR always says, "Procedures pay."

Why is this true? Is it because of lobbying on the part of physician groups that tend to perform more procedures?

How will the health care 'pie' (as it were) be disseminated in the future? More of an even distribution to large hospitals (which is probably why small practices are vanishing) and then an approximate distribution to the various providers in the hospitals that is correlated to their approximate time in training?
Well, procedures first of all carry a lot more risk associated with them. It doesn't make more sense to pay more to talk with a patient and less to do a procedure or it wouldn't be worth doing the procedure. Even if we weren't on a fee-for-service system as we are now, and if doctors were paid more to talk with patients, then doctors would just talk more and spend more time per patient (like lawyers who bill for their time).

No, reimbursement will likely be more bundled payments, capitation, etc. Since hospitals are swallowing up private practices, doctors will just become employees of hospitals, and hospitals will be easier to control by the govt. in terms of reimbursement.

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EM doesn't have a true mastery of a body of knowledge and skills?

My post was not meant to be a stab at EM. Given the broad scope of practice, you really aren't the expert on any one topic. EM doctors do many things well (intubate, put in lines, etc), but I'm not sure they are true masters of any of these things. This appeals to many, just not to me.

At non-academic hospitals, the ED docs do all of their procedures... and lots of stuff up on the floor as well because the inhouse docs aren't credentialled.

Again, I never meant to imply that they weren't capable, and I'm sure that things are much different in the community setting.
 
My post was not meant to be a stab at EM. Given the broad scope of practice, you really aren't the expert on any one topic. EM doctors do many things well (intubate, put in lines, etc), but I'm not sure they are true masters of any of these things. This appeals to many, just not to me.

Such a passively toxic comment. EM doctors are masters of Emergency Medicine.
 
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Given the broad scope of practice, you really aren't the expert on any one topic. EM doctors do many things well (intubate, put in lines, etc), but I'm not sure they are true masters of any of these things..

See, EM people would argue this point and do so frequently. Who says we're not masters of the airway? When we tube someone it's right after they eat a double cheeseburger, or got shot in the jaw, or while some 300lb medic is pounding on their chest, or there's a mouthful of vomit, etc, etc, etc. And we do it with a smile... and a faceshield. Anesthesia claims to be masters of the airway (and I'm not saying they're bad), but EM hasn't really relinquished that title. In my mind, we're both good, but our arenas are different.

Why aren't we masters of central lines? We place them when people are volume depleted, crashing, missing limbs, etc, etc, etc. We do it just as well as anyone else and we do it in worse conditions.

Every other field of medicine is a field of specificity. EM is a field of sensitivity. We are very good at ruling out life threats (except ebola... apparently we're not as good at that one...). And we do our job very well under situations in which other fields feel uncomfortable practicing.
 
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I see Anesthesia picking up more Anesthesiology Assistants actually (who fall under the Board of Medicine). The DNP degree will make the CRNA track longer (obvi). Let the CRNAs get complete independence. When people start dying left and right, people will come scrambling back and demand a physician if they aren't doing it already.

What is the point of having a CRNA and an AA?? Seems silly of gas doctors to shoot themselves in the foot since hiring only AA's would prevent encroachment and less problems we're starting to see (Hiring of more CRNA's and less anesthesiologists).
 
What is the point of having a CRNA and an AA?? Seems silly of gas doctors to shoot themselves in the foot since hiring only AA's would prevent encroachment and less problems we're starting to see (Hiring of more CRNA's and less anesthesiologists).
They wouldn't. They'd just hire one -- the AA.
 
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I
See, EM people would argue this point and do so frequently. Who says we're not masters of the airway? When we tube someone it's right after they eat a double cheeseburger, or got shot in the jaw, or while some 300lb medic is pounding on their chest, or there's a mouthful of vomit, etc, etc, etc. And we do it with a smile... and a faceshield. Anesthesia claims to be masters of the airway (and I'm not saying they're bad), but EM hasn't really relinquished that title. In my mind, we're both good, but our arenas are different.

Why aren't we masters of central lines? We place them when people are volume depleted, crashing, missing limbs, etc, etc, etc. We do it just as well as anyone else and we do it in worse conditions.

Every other field of medicine is a field of specificity. EM is a field of sensitivity. We are very good at ruling out life threats (except ebola... apparently we're not as good at that one...). And we do our job very well under situations in which other fields feel uncomfortable practicing.

Yeah, if using the bougie or flexible fiberoptic scope to narrowly avoid airway disasters isn't mastery, I'm not sure what is.
 
Such a passively toxic comment. EM doctors are masters of Emergency Medicine.

Not meant to be toxic. Just my impression from my brief rotation as a student and my experience as a surgical consult. You're misunderstanding my intentions. You're the best at emergency medicine, hands down. Much like an FP is best at FM. My original point still stands.
 
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Yeah, if using the bougie or flexible fiberoptic scope to narrowly avoid airway disasters isn't mastery, I'm not sure what is.

This is the point of contention; semantics. You can be competent or even excellent (in my mind) without being the ultimate authoritity. You can't argue that at the completion of EM training with 100 airways you're just as much the airway master as an anesthesiologist with thousands of airways during residency.
 
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I see Anesthesia picking up more Anesthesiology Assistants actually (who fall under the Board of Medicine). The DNP degree will make the CRNA track longer (obvi). Let the CRNAs get complete independence. When people start dying left and right, people will come scrambling back and demand a physician if they aren't doing it already.
Crna independence doesn't scare me as much as 99% independance with docs assuming all liability while supervising at 9-1
 
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Hey Ed welcome to SDN.I am somewhat new here too. I think what you are doing shows alot of courage and determination. I say you should go for it and not let go of dream of becoming a physician. Do not let your age or the time factor discourage you. I am 28 with a family of 3 and with over 10 years experience in the medical field and still plugging away at my bachelors. It is sometimes disheartening to think that when I start my practice, my collegues will be half my age (I hope to be atleast in my early 40's). Nevertheless the experience I will have with patients and with people in general will far surpass anything they would hope to have achevied. 35 years old is not old by any stretch of imagination to start a practice and I believe your life experience would put you in more favorable postion. I believe schools, hospitals and especially our future patients are looking at quality not at our age.

I can certainly argue I will be better at emergent airways.
 
Every other field of medicine is a field of specificity. EM is a field of sensitivity. We are very good at ruling out life threats (except ebola... apparently we're not as good at that one...). And we do our job very well under situations in which other fields feel uncomfortable practicing.
To think the one time they didn't just automatically admit the person anyways, just because, they actually should have.
 
Crna independence doesn't scare me as much as 99% independance with docs assuming all liability while supervising at 9-1
Part of the problem is that Anesthesiology has done a VERY VERY bad job when it comes to protecting their own specialty. CRNAs should never have existed. It should have been AAs from the beginning. Now it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle.
 
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Part of the problem is that Anesthesiology has done a VERY VERY bad job when it comes to protecting their own specialty. CRNAs should never have existed. It should have been AAs from the beginning. Now it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

Doctors in general have done a tremendously poor job of protecting their specialties. It's more a factor of mid-level ingenuity at this point that determines which specialties are gutted. I almost wish that there were unions..
 
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Academic and Community ED are very different, so whoever thinks we call consults all the time should work in a community hospital. The only consults I call are to tell someone to take a patient to the OR/endo suite today, or arrange for a procedure tomorrow, or just to assign a neurologist to the stroke patient. I see a consultant with patients in my ED maybe once every couple weeks. Honestly, as an ED doc, I'm tempted to pick the other field plenty of days because the personality disorder patients can't talk to you (get to deal with those a lot in the ED) and intubation's my favorite procedure, but I'd be bored to death after the first week of work. Pick the field that can keep your interest and won't burn you out with the mundane aspects.
EM doesn't have a true mastery of a body of knowledge and skills?

At non-academic hospitals, the ED docs do all of their procedures... and lots of stuff up on the floor as well because the inhouse docs aren't credentialled.

Good posts.


Depends on what attracts you to each field, what draws backs you preceive.

For me: I'd pick anesthesia over EM because anesthesia has a true mastery of a body of knowledge and skills. That appeals to me.

EM tries to have a solid level of knowledge of most things, which ends up meaning the basics. There is a lot of triage in EM, calling consults, dealing with things that primary care should be handling, and other nonsense. Granted, EM docs do take care of a significant portion of patients that walk through the door without calling consults, but many of those patients should have been seen by primary care (i.e. non-urgent). The shift work and overall low number of hours per month appeal to those applying to EM, but it still has a high level of burnout; either because it's not really that great of a lifestyle, or because those going EM have low tolerance for handwork (I suspect it's mostly the former and not the latter). Other things appealing to folks applying to EM include doing procedures. From what I've observed in our ER, procedures end up coming in the way of EM providers getting their work done, so it's more of a burden than a pleasure (e.g. calling trauma surgery to suture a simple lac).

The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.
 
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Good posts.




The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.

Dude, where do you work that you see constant ESI I and II patients? You need some IIIs and IVs in there.
 
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Good posts.




The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.

That's all I meant to say.
 
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Good posts.




The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.

Anddd sold
 
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I have experienced both. Have formal rotations in each coming up soon. But I would like to get more opinions on here to see if I'm missing pros/cons for each side

I like the pharm and phys of anesthesia, im still a rookie with IV's, lines, intubation, but I'm afraid about what the CRNA blow out will do to future job prospects and have been cautioned by quite a few private practice attendings about this not just sdn stuff.

I enjoy working the fast paced ER, acute illness, im the type of guy with not a lot of patience and like to get things done fast. The night schedule thing and the lack of continuity in shift times are the drawbacks...and although I've only practiced suturing on foam twice..haven't been good at it at this so far..tried taking out sutures off some kids head and got a ton of hair out the first time. whatever that means?

Focus most on what you dislike, what you can't stand, rather than what you enjoy.
Community anesthesiologists often have nothing to do during surgeries. They spend time on their phones, on the internet, on crossword puzzles.
And someone has to be there for all the emergency/trauma surgeries at night.
Anesthesiology is kind of like the military - mostly boredom with some moments of massive adrenaline.
 
Dude, where do you work that you see constant ESI I and II patients? You need some IIIs and IVs in there.

Yeah I'd love to work there too.

Unfortunately sounds more like an crazy EM week than an EM shift.
 
True

I'm still interested in EM, but about 50% of shifts seem to be drug seekers or poor people just using the ER as primary care. If it really were as epic as the wall of text a few posts ago, I would've been sold on it much sooner...having said that, I intubated a crashing heroin addict and it was pretty sweet
 
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Just my two cents as someone who rotated through EM as a medstudent, but am not doing EM now.

I think EM can be an awesome field for the right people, but there are TONS of medstudents interested in it that I think ultimately will be disappointed, particularly the high action/ "cowboy" types. These folks should be trauma surgeons instead, unless they are planning to do EM somewhere with little surgical support.

I think increasingly EM doctors need to be the type who are OK with 99% of the time being a cog in a system they generally have little autonomy over. For medicolegal reasons, more and more patients are worked up with the almost the exact same set of tests based on the chief complaint they gave triage. Seems like each hospital has specialist created protocols that the EM physicians follow- ID determines what abx they are going to give every pneumonia, neurology has stroke protocols, the interventional cardiologists have everything set out for STEMI care, the hospital has some policies you follow related to chronic pain, there is some DKA protocol, we automatically transfer Y type of patient to the big academic hospital, every pregnant lady with X characteristic gets seen by an OB, etc.

That being said, if your the type who really liked family medicine, but want to do it with sicker patients, more frequent simple procedures and the occasional critical care situation, then I think you would really enjoy EM.

(Also a lot of people point to the shift based schedule as being a huge positive of EM, but I think its a mixed blessing. Its amazing that they never carry a pager, but the irregular hours can be quite disruptive to family dynamics and I've heard gets quite a big tougher the older you get)
 
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Just my two cents as someone who rotated through EM as a medstudent, but am not doing EM now.

I think EM can be an awesome field for the right people, but there are TONS of medstudents interested in it that I think ultimately will be disappointed, particularly the high action/ "cowboy" types. These folks should be trauma surgeons instead, unless they are planning to do EM somewhere with little surgical support.

I think increasingly EM doctors need to be the type who are OK with 99% of the time being a cog in a system they generally have little autonomy over. For medicolegal reasons, more and more patients are worked up with the almost the exact same set of tests based on the chief complaint they gave triage. Seems like each hospital has specialist created protocols that the EM physicians follow- ID determines what abx they are going to give every pneumonia, neurology has stroke protocols, the interventional cardiologists have everything set out for STEMI care, the hospital has some policies you follow related to chronic pain, there is some DKA protocol, we automatically transfer Y type of patient to the big academic hospital, every pregnant lady with X characteristic gets seen by an OB, etc.

That being said, if your the type who really liked family medicine, but want to do it with sicker patients, more frequent simple procedures and the occasional critical care situation, then I think you would really enjoy EM.

(Also a lot of people point to the shift based schedule as being a huge positive of EM, but I think its a mixed blessing. Its amazing that they never carry a pager, but the irregular hours can be quite disruptive to family dynamics and I've heard gets quite a big tougher the older you get)

umm no, if you have any resemblance of liking FM and want sicker patients, you will go FM and do urgent care, moonlight or unopposed programs, you will have the opportunity to diagnose much more grave diseases in a FP cinic than in the ER, where you will just send them away for not being sick enough or too sick for you.
 
True

I'm still interested in EM, but about 50% of shifts seem to be drug seekers or poor people just using the ER as primary care. If it really were as epic as the wall of text a few posts ago, I would've been sold on it much sooner...having said that, I intubated a crashing heroin addict and it was pretty sweet
Why do people say this like it's a bad thing? Free ticket to the freak show. Clock in, move the meat, move the meat, move the meat, clock out.
 
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Anesthesiology by a long shot. I don't care what the statistics are EM would burn me out. No disrespect. I can't stand when they get disparaged for doing what no one else could do as well at. But...it's too phrenetic. Too chaotic. Too noisy. Too crowded. And too much tragic **** punctuating the tedium of urgent care with high legal risk. And shift work sounds great until your 50 and your swing shift just layed you so out cold you need 2 days to recover. And your on nights the next shift. And so on.

It sounds good to people who like riding bikes down mountains and **** in their 20's. I'll take a pass on EM.

Anesthesiology, on the other hand, is a field I'll always wonder about. Never got a chance to rotate in it. I think I might have liked it.
 
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Why do people say this like it's a bad thing? Free ticket to the freak show. Clock in, move the meat, move the meat, move the meat, clock out.
Have you done an actual rotation in the ER? The worst of society (drug addicts, drunkards, the violent), the most vulnerable of society (homeless, mentally disabled, etc.), and the dark secrets of society (domestic violence victims, rape victims, etc.) comes in there. It would wear anyone out, unless you're a sociopath.
 
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Uh...because the drug seekers are usually annoying and often manipulative liars and occasionally abusive.
The best part is if they are able to trick you, society and regulators will blame you for narcotic drug abuse. And if you don't give them pain meds, you'll be blamed for causing needless suffering. What a win-win situation.
 
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And shift work sounds great until your 50 and your swing shift just layed you so out cold you need 2 days to recover. And your on nights the next shift. And so on.
There are many fellowships and transitions EM physicians can make as they get older. Including but not limited to: Working in acute care, working 20 hrs a week, critical care, hospital administration, sports fellowship / sports outpatient, education, ultrasound, pain, geriatrics, public policy, EMS, cruise ship physician. Also, if you manage your money well you can easily have > 1 million in savings in < 15 yrs - allowing you to start a new career if you choose. Life is what you make it.

As for the drug seekers, I think all of us have to deal with or work with people who are difficult. I look at it as a challenge to build character and shape me as a man. It's easy to be patient and friendly with nice people. It's much more difficult to do that with someone trying to spit in your face.

As others have said above, EM isn't all emergencies - depending on your shop it may be < 20% of your patients. It's also a chaotic environment many times. Some people are exhausted by this while others are energized by managing and thriving in the chaos.

EM isn't for everyone. It's not a perfect job. There are many other specialties that others may think are better, but that's besides the point. My original post tried to explain some of the reasons some people may want to practice EM as opposed to trying to objectively classify which specialty is worse than the other. Medicine often becomes so obsessed with infighting when there is no reason to do so. I respect and know great doctors in FM, psych, pediatrics, surgery, radiology, anesthesia, etc. I don't try to criticize other specialties for their limitations. "They can't do ____ or ____". Each of us has a valuable contribution to make to this giant healthcare system and to our patients. Many will criticize EM saying they only triage or they are incompetent, etc. But as my original post went through, a great EM doc can make some amazing contributions to our system. To be able to deal with ANY undifferentiated patient in the critical initial presentation of their disease at ANY time of day and to do that well - that's valuable. A great EM physician a key gatekeeper of the U.S. healthcare system, knowing who and when to let people in or keep them out is a huge service. Dispo Dispo Dispo isn't mundane, it's invaluable. I know some specialists will isolate and say, "well, he can't deliver a baby like I can." Well - sure. That's not our purpose in the system.

Our bodies have neutrophils. They kill many invaders rapidly. They are an essential immediate defense. They are imprecise at times and they won't kill every invader. Sure, T cells and B cells could huddle around and talk about how worthless the neutrophils are with their imprecise killing. "They only triage the difficult infections, they aren't as precise like we are. They can't even kill a flu virus." But then occasionally people become neutropenic and suddenly we understand the importance of neutrophils.

The body is amazing, isn't it?
 
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^ Seriously, your fellow doctors aren't the enemy. Hospital administrators and militant mid-level nurses are.
 
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Have you done an actual rotation in the ER? The worst of society (drug addicts, drunkards, the violent), the most vulnerable of society (homeless, mentally disabled, etc.), and the dark secrets of society (domestic violence victims, rape victims, etc.) comes in there. It would wear anyone out, unless you're a sociopath.


this is so true. You need to make sure you are fine with this situation. EM isn't for everyone. ER isn't for everyone.
 
this is so true. You need to make sure you are fine with this situation. EM isn't for everyone. ER isn't for everyone.
And yet it's hot now bc of the sudden discovery of it's controlled lifestyle and quick patient encounters.
 
Somebody mentioned PA's/NP's being a threat to EM. I believe most emergency physicians prefer to employee PA's, giving them an advantage over NP's in the hiring process. This is good because PA's are regulated by the board of medicine whereas NP's are not. Most NP's will have to teach eachother...

I don't think midlevels are a "threat." They are simply being allowed to fill a void because EP's can't see 4 patients per hour. Yes EM salaries may drop from 400-500k/year to 200-300k/year, but I don't think an EP will ever be left out in the cold if he's willing to work for what the market can reasonably support.

In summary, job security is fine. Reimbursements may drop, but this is true for all of medicine.
 
Good posts.




The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.

Obviously those patients won't all present the same day, but this is an excellent summary of what EM is really all about. People get caught up all to often on something like "well, EM docs are stupid/incompetent/lazy/whatever because they can't do X or do Z too much." Well, no, an EM doc won't necessarily have the same skill at doing XZY procedure as a specialist in that field, but they are still damn good at it and do it while juggling a million other things and managing patients with a wide variety of presentations. So while they might not intubate as well as an anesthesiologist, for example, they do a hell of a better job at simultaneously managing the 28 yo w/ pelvic bleeding in the next room, the 73 yo w/ a CVA across the hall, and prepping for the incoming patient who was found down with no other history.

One doc isn't better than another. They are just different, and serve different purposes.

EM definitely has its problems (people might tire of shift work/pace, EM group conflicts with hospital administration, etc.), but being bashed by other docs who are trying to make themselves feel better shouldn't be one of them. Whatever field we all chose in the future, let's try to not tear our profession apart from the inside.
 
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Anyone have the most recent avg hours per week/annual salary for EM and Anesthesia?
 
Anyone have the most recent avg hours per week/annual salary for EM and Anesthesia?

Pay is probably comparable with non-employee anesthesia probably higher...probably. More hours in anesthesia but also more normal daytime hours with either a call system or night float/shifts (more likely in employee models I would imagine).
 
Not to over-generalize, but this distinction is a least a little bit personality dependent. Both are interesting fields with a lot of commonality, but in my observation sustained enjoyment of EM might take a somewhat more extroverted personality, where as anesthesiology is perhaps less so. A lot of the personal interaction in the ED is a little forced, to say the least. If that takes a lot of effort for you to perform in a sincere and conscientious manner, it may become taxing. If you need constant stimulation to maintain focus and interest, anesthesiology might challenging in other ways.
 
I imagine I'm going to be a similar predicament in a year or so. Still early in the game (2nd year), but I've had a good amount of exposure in Level 1 trauma center in an academic center. I used to work in a restaurant/banquet hall for four years and I almost brace the chaotic mess things can become. Sure the shifts wear you out after, but so does working a continuous grind for ~60 hours a week in anesthesia or any other field. Definitely like the procedures for both, the physiology/pharm on anesthesia and some of EM, the lack of continuity of care, and the fact that we deal with acute situations (for the most part). I imagine it'll be something I decide during my elective.
 
Maybe it was a good thing that he quit medical school
I wonder if SDN contributed to his negative outlook on medicine. The rhetoric is always doom and gloom and it also the jerks (myself included) tend to congregate here.
 
If you're gonna quit, better as an M1 than an R1.
 
Good posts.




The EM burnout thing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, EM tends to rank high on burn out - but only about 10-20% higher than the rest - depending on the survey. So yes, EM has a ~ 10% increased chance of burnout compared to other challenging fields in medicine. Regardless, still anywhere from 40-60% aren't burnt out. Which isn't far off other fields that work on the front lines.

You hear this from time to time, that EM doesn't have true mastery over a body of knowledge.

Why not enjoy each field for what it is? The medical profession has become obsessed with comparisons. Who makes more money? Who is more prestigious? Who scored higher on this or that? It's no different than the man who can't appreciate his wife's beauty, he can only appreciate how much more beautiful she is than other women. Someone once said, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man... It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, pride is gone.”

With that said, what does EM offer? EM offers a critical service to the United States healthcare system. Let's walk through an EM shift: A pt with chest pain comes in, you get an EKG which you need to diagnose an MI on, the pt starts crashing - now you need to intubate him, start BiPAP and prep him for the Cath lab. Next a pediatric seizure comes in, you need to work up a good ddx and know if you need to admit or discharge. After that you have a dislocated shoulder walk through, you have to relocate that and send him on his way. Next? Undifferentiated abdominal pain in an elderly man. You resuscitate and work him up and dx diverticulitis, start his treatment and wrap him up. Next you have a red eye come in, you work that patient up and treat them - send them on their way. A stroke patient walks through the door, you need to diagnose this, know if you can give thrombolytics and move on. Now a drowning victim comes in, you need to actively rewarm this patient, run a code if they crash and then ensure they are stable and move along. Now you have a crashing DKA patient - you have to navigate that and ensure no major complications occur. Next you have a toxic overdose which you have to diagnose and treat, followed by a cirrhotic who is bleeding copiously through the mouth. Trauma, codes, suicidal patient, cardiac tamponade, tension pneumo... then wrap up your day with pelvic bleeding in a 23 year old female, and take care of that.

Now sure, the OB/GYN doctor would probably handle that pelvic bleed better - but does she want to intubate the first patient? How about deal with a stroke patient? Relocate a joint? Cardiac tamponade?

Sure the neurologist could handle the stroke better, but how does he deal with the DKA patient? The patient with an MI or a the pelvic bleed? How about the tension pneumo?

Sure the pediatrician could work up the febrile infant better, but how would they like to deal with the intoxicated patient who overdosed on who knows what and is crashing?

Not to mention EM has to deal with some of the most challenging personalities and social situations in medicine. Those require communications skills that will help the rest of our lives.

So sure, EM isn't as good at ______ as ________ specialist. But if you have a undifferentiated sick family member and you can only pick one doctor to take care of them in an emergency situation, then that's us.

Is that better than _________ specialty? No. It's not supposed to be better than anything. I appreciate anesthesia and every other field in medicine. So I would tell the OP to do what you like to do. EM has many benefits that are attractive to some people. So does anesthesia. EM is meant to be an all purpose doc who can be thrown into the fire with anyone. That appeals to me, that I will be someone who can be called upon in a variety of situations. In that respect, EM is the master of being the one type of doctor you want to see in an emergency where anything goes. Sure you'd rather have an anesthesia doc if you could predict the next person coming in will need to be intubated, but what if it's one of the hundreds of other undifferentiated patients that could come in?

Oh yeah, and EM is lots of fun with cool people.

Amazing post!
 
If you enjoyed both and had to choose which would you go into in 2014 based on lifestyle, future, job prospects etc..
Based on those 3 things alone? EM hands down

EDIT: nvm OP is most likely dead
 
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