AB 1400

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How about this argument. The government spends a lot of money on the military. We have a universal single payor military for our safety, protection, and to advance our geopolitical agenda. Why is healthcare less important?

Why does our military spend more than entire european union spending on military. we are too different to compare despite what people think. it doesnt make sense to say they do this we should too. its way more complicated
 
There are a lot of reasonable arguments for single payer (and reasonable arguments against). But these arguments for don't take into account that we're not designing a system from the ground up. We're dealing with uprooting the largest industry in America. There would be the biggest recession in recent memory. An estimate of 2 million jobs would disappear with M4A. This isn't inherently a bad thing, as by definition many of the jobs eliminated are due to increased efficiency, but it would be absolutely catastrophic, especially in regions (many) where healthcare and insurance are the dominant employers.


True, insurance companies would go the way of manufacturing and the coal industry. And they won’t go without a fight.
 
How about this argument. The government spends a lot of money on the military. We have a universal single payor military for our safety, protection, and to advance our geopolitical agenda. Why is healthcare less important?
Having by far the most well equipped and effective military on the planet goes a long way towards making our printed money actually worth something. It’s money well spent.
 
Having by far the most well equipped and effective military on the planet goes a long way towards making our printed money actually worth something. It’s money well spent.


I’m not arguing that the military is a waste of money. Every American will eventually need healthcare. Why not make it universal too.
 
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There are a lot of reasonable arguments for single payer (and reasonable arguments against). But these arguments for don't take into account that we're not designing a system from the ground up. We're dealing with uprooting the largest industry in America. There would be the biggest recession in recent memory. An estimate of 2 million jobs would disappear with M4A. This isn't inherently a bad thing, as by definition many of the jobs eliminated are due to increased efficiency, but it would be absolutely catastrophic, especially in regions (many) where healthcare and insurance are the dominant employers.

The fact that there are so many leeches in the system working for insurance companies that they are the dominant employers says it all about our system.
 
I find the number of people defending the insurance companies in this thread amusing. It’s like watching poor people defend Elon musk from paying taxes.
 
I find the number of people defending the insurance companies in this thread amusing. It’s like watching poor people defend Elon musk from paying taxes.
I mean it’s more like someone who makes $500k working for Tesla defending Musk.

Insurance companies are a scam and a blight on society to be sure but at the end of the day they pay docs a lot better than the government does.
 
The fact that there are so many leeches in the system working for insurance companies that they are the dominant employers says it all about our system.
Everyone needs to do something. It is what it is….
 
funny arguement. Look at this chart. China has universal free health care!

Do you know what China doesn’t have? Freedom. Equality. democracy.

shame on the usa. Let’s just copy china

kind of unfair statement

having lived in both countries, all those terms you threw out are all points on a spectrum. we dont have total freedom in USA, we have to follow the law same with china. if you go to china and ask them if they free, i guarantee you most will say yes. actually there was a video on it recently.

equality? both countries have high inequality actually

democracy? i guess we decided to define them as undemocratic

id love to copy some parts of china, but itd never fly here
 
kind of unfair statement

having lived in both countries, all those terms you threw out are all points on a spectrum. we dont have total freedom in USA, we have to follow the law same with china. if you go to china and ask them if they free, i guarantee you most will say yes. actually there was a video on it recently.

equality? both countries have high inequality actually

democracy? i guess we decided to define them as undemocratic

id love to copy some parts of china, but itd never fly here

I guess we should ask the Uyghurs how free they feel in China?

They may say yes on camera but that's because there is a gun pointed to their head 6 inches off camera.

Some of the statements you've made are pretty laughable.

The US is a pretty free country. You can worship how you want. Earn a living how you want. You can do a lot. You can criticize the government how you want.

Other countries actively suppress religious dress for example because they think it changes the makeup of the country (France etc).

Regarding equality, I'm a minority and I'm pretty happy. My parents immigrated here 50 years ago with no money and now live the American dream. Nice house, running a business, paying taxes, having kids who contribute positively to society.

The place of worship I attended as a kid 25 years ago was a small building. Through years of donations and the members financially succeeding, we now have a beautiful facility that helps the community.

All it took was hard work and a system that rewarded hard work. That is lacking in a lot of other countries, China included.
 
How can you have universal free health care if you can't secure the border?

Healthcare is finite. This will be very costly and difficult to sustain, especially on the state level.
 
How can you have universal free health care if you can't secure the border?

Healthcare is finite. This will be very costly and difficult to sustain, especially on the state level.


We’ve already been taking care of undocumented immigrants for decades. We have so many pilon fractures from the border fence that I propose a foam landing pit on our side😉
 
I guess we should ask the Uyghurs how free they feel in China?

They may say yes on camera but that's because there is a gun pointed to their head 6 inches off camera.

Some of the statements you've made are pretty laughable.

The US is a pretty free country. You can worship how you want. Earn a living how you want. You can do a lot. You can criticize the government how you want.

Other countries actively suppress religious dress for example because they think it changes the makeup of the country (France etc).

Regarding equality, I'm a minority and I'm pretty happy. My parents immigrated here 50 years ago with no money and now live the American dream. Nice house, running a business, paying taxes, having kids who contribute positively to society.

The place of worship I attended as a kid 25 years ago was a small building. Through years of donations and the members financially succeeding, we now have a beautiful facility that helps the community.

All it took was hard work and a system that rewarded hard work. That is lacking in a lot of other countries, China included.


Plenty of people are rewarded for hard work in China. Then they buy mansions in La Jolla, Calabasas, and Vancouver.
 
I find myself getting convinced that maybe we should consider UHC just so I don't have to worry about patients affording care among the other reasons listed above. But then I wonder if something for "free" is truly free. And then I wonder about government efficiency and whether it would actually be better. And I ask myself how much I like having more administrators than providers currently. Would that get better or worse? hmmm
 
We’ve already been taking care of undocumented immigrants for decades. We have so many pilon fractures from the border fence that I propose a foam landing pit on our side😉

If one state is coming out with "free" healthcare, I predict a large influx of patients to that area. That will really burden the system.
 
If one state is coming out with "free" healthcare, I predict a large influx of patients to that area. That will really burden the system.

Maybe it’ll stimulate an influx of corporations and employers too since they’re always whining about the cost of healthcare.
 
I find myself getting convinced that maybe we should consider UHC just so I don't have to worry about patients affording care among the other reasons listed above. But then I wonder if something for "free" is truly free. And then I wonder about government efficiency and whether it would actually be better. And I ask myself how much I like having more administrators than providers currently. Would that get better or worse? hmmm

How is it free? They are proposing over a hundred billion dollars in new taxes to pay for it. They are just shifting the burden of payment. But I don't see why I should pay for someone else's healthcare.
 
How is it free? They are proposing over a hundred billion dollars in new taxes to pay for it. They are just shifting the burden of payment. But I don't see why I should pay for someone else's healthcare.
It is sold to the masses that it is "free". People will actually regurgitate that point as a benefit and many understand it to be free to them. Nothing is ever free, nor do I think it is. My statements about wondering if it was free, if government would be more efficient, or if having more administrators would be better were all rhetorical questions.

Why isn't water free? It is more essential to life and takes less effort to provide than healthcare...
 
It’s universal (everybody is covered) and single payor. No one said it’s free but there won’t be any deductibles or copays.
 
I guess we should ask the Uyghurs how free they feel in China?

They may say yes on camera but that's because there is a gun pointed to their head 6 inches off camera.

Some of the statements you've made are pretty laughable.

The US is a pretty free country. You can worship how you want. Earn a living how you want. You can do a lot. You can criticize the government how you want.

Other countries actively suppress religious dress for example because they think it changes the makeup of the country (France etc).

Regarding equality, I'm a minority and I'm pretty happy. My parents immigrated here 50 years ago with no money and now live the American dream. Nice house, running a business, paying taxes, having kids who contribute positively to society.

The place of worship I attended as a kid 25 years ago was a small building. Through years of donations and the members financially succeeding, we now have a beautiful facility that helps the community.

All it took was hard work and a system that rewarded hard work. That is lacking in a lot of other countries, China included.

never said china has no issues. but dont pretend china is some draconian place just because you read some negative news in the media.

each person need to find the system that best suits them. i know plenty of people who didnt like china and came to the US, and plenty of people who really likes china and would never come to the US.
 
Plenty of people are rewarded for hard work in China. Then they buy mansions in La Jolla, Calabasas, and Vancouver.

Yes, my wifes parents in china are getting a good pension, for life. they were college teachers. the only 'downside' depending on how you view it, is china makes you retire at age 55-60, to open up jobs for the newer generation. but you do get pension, and you can find another job elsewhere if you want to.
 
We’ve already been taking care of undocumented immigrants for decades. We have so many pilon fractures from the border fence that I propose a foam landing pit on our side😉

we actualyl had a few months ago, a patient with broken tibia , who came to NY from mexico border to get it fixed! . must have been painful...
 
never said china has no issues. but dont pretend china is some draconian place just because you read some negative news in the media.

each person need to find the system that best suits them. i know plenty of people who didnt like china and came to the US, and plenty of people who really likes china and would never come to the US.

Lol. Comical.

"Some negative news reports" = genocide and forced organ harvesting .

No big deal right?

Gimme a break.



That's a pretty big deal in 2022.
 
we actualyl had a few months ago, a patient with broken tibia , who came to NY from mexico border to get it fixed! . must have been painful...

We actually had a guy who came on a cargo ship from India to Chile, made his way through South and Central America speaking only Hindi, only to be foiled when he fell off the border fence breaking his tib/fib. IMO someone like that should automatically be given a green card based on sheer resourcefulness. At the very least he should tell his story in a book.
 
Lol. Comical.

"Some negative news reports" = genocide and forced organ harvesting .

No big deal right?

Gimme a break.



That's a pretty big deal in 2022.

i dont know what your point is. gimme a break. you want stuff wrong with the US? i dont even want to post it here. just turn on your news.
 
i dont know what your point is. gimme a break. you want stuff wrong with the US? i dont even want to post it here. just turn on your news.
"but dont pretend china is some draconian place just because you read some negative news in the media."

Those are your words not mine.

I just merely posted that China is in fact draconian.
 
I guess we should ask the Uyghurs how free they feel in China?

They may say yes on camera but that's because there is a gun pointed to their head 6 inches off camera.

Some of the statements you've made are pretty laughable.

The US is a pretty free country. You can worship how you want. Earn a living how you want. You can do a lot. You can criticize the government how you want.

Other countries actively suppress religious dress for example because they think it changes the makeup of the country (France etc).

Regarding equality, I'm a minority and I'm pretty happy. My parents immigrated here 50 years ago with no money and now live the American dream. Nice house, running a business, paying taxes, having kids who contribute positively to society.

The place of worship I attended as a kid 25 years ago was a small building. Through years of donations and the members financially succeeding, we now have a beautiful facility that helps the community.

All it took was hard work and a system that rewarded hard work. That is lacking in a lot of other countries, China included.
If by pretty free country, you mean incarcerating more people in the world than any other country in the world (by far)...

Land of the free or land of irony?
 
If by pretty free country, you mean incarcerating more people in the world than any other country in the world (by far)...

Land of the free or land of irony?

What's the problem with that?

In a lot of countries, especially third world, if you commit a crime the police doesn't do anything. Of course they're not going to incarcerate many people.

Do crime and get caught, go to jail. Simple.

They're not putting enough people in jail in California and now we're running into repeat offenders causing major issues.
 
I
Calcare is a M4A style single payor universal healthcare. Supported by 65% of Californians. We have a large proportion of indigent and uninsured patients. Would be nice if everyone is covered. Private insurance companies will oppose it.


I wonder if there will be any malpractice protection in this. myself (visiting from EM) I’d take a lower rate of pay from a single-payor as long as they also reduce the stress level of my job in this way.
Looking at the link what screamed out to me was the bit about reducing “unnecessary” procedures/tests/etc, this can’t really work without malpractice reform…they can’t tell me a test is unnecessary but allow me to be sued for not ordering it …
 
Everyone needs to do something. It is what it is….
America would be better off with these people improving American infrastructure instead of doing fake work in an office. It would cost America less too because they would be healthier due to an active lifestyle. I'm 100% against any kind of make-work job in society. We have a lot of things that need done and a lot of people sitting around not doing anything of value and leeching off the economy of people who work for a living. If they don't want to dig ditches and build roads they should move or gain some IQ points to qualify for a better job.
 
What's the problem with that?

In a lot of countries, especially third world, if you commit a crime the police doesn't do anything. Of course they're not going to incarcerate many people.

Do crime and get caught, go to jail. Simple.

They're not putting enough people in jail in California and now we're running into repeat offenders causing major issues.
This. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. We don’t have an incarceration problem we have a crime problem (whatever the cause).
 
So back to this bill, does this thing actually have a realistic chance of passing? Between Kaiser, sutter, all the California biotech, and other special interests does this actually get passed?

Another thought: at what unit conversion factor would anesthesiologists accept single payer? $35-40?
 
So back to this bill, does this thing actually have a realistic chance of passing? Between Kaiser, sutter, all the California biotech, and other special interests does this actually get passed?

Another thought: at what unit conversion factor would anesthesiologists accept single payer? $35-40?

Sounds like a whole new thread.

At what conversion factor would you accept SP? Could make a survey out of it.
 
So back to this bill, does this thing actually have a realistic chance of passing? Between Kaiser, sutter, all the California biotech, and other special interests does this actually get passed?

Another thought: at what unit conversion factor would anesthesiologists accept single payer? $35-40?


I think large integrated health systems like sutter and Kaiser would do okay under single payor. Seems like part of the reason they formed was in preparation for such an occurrence. It’s the insurance companies like United healthcare and Anthem BCBS that would be obliterated in the state. Anyway it’s unlikely to pass quickly.
 
I think large integrated health systems like sutter and Kaiser would do okay under single payor. Seems like part of the reason they formed was in preparation for such an occurrence. It’s the insurance companies like United healthcare and Anthem BCBS that would be obliterated in the state. Anyway it’s unlikely to pass quickly.

Unless of course they’re the ones administering the plans…and getting a few for doing so plus a bonus for saving money.
 
I

I wonder if there will be any malpractice protection in this. myself (visiting from EM) I’d take a lower rate of pay from a single-payor as long as they also reduce the stress level of my job in this way.
Looking at the link what screamed out to me was the bit about reducing “unnecessary” procedures/tests/etc, this can’t really work without malpractice reform…they can’t tell me a test is unnecessary but allow me to be sued for not ordering it …

There's no malpractice protection in the UK with the NHS.

I think they even have a system where if you don't win your lawsuit, you don't pay any legal fees.

Of course that is causing an increase in litigation.

I would be skeptical of there would be any malpractice protection.

There is a huge legal racket with lawyers on both sides (plaintiff and defense) that have a vested financial interest to keep the current system going.
 
easy for people to chime in when THEIR state income tax won't increase by a huge margin.
 
I think large integrated health systems like sutter and Kaiser would do okay under single payor. Seems like part of the reason they formed was in preparation for such an occurrence. It’s the insurance companies like United healthcare and Anthem BCBS that would be obliterated in the state. Anyway it’s unlikely to pass quickly.
Maybe, but wouldn't pay have go down? If the gov't pays less than what premiums previously afforded? I live in CA, but work for the federal government, so I suppose my pay wouldn't go down.
 
Maybe, but wouldn't pay have go down? If the gov't pays less than what premiums previously afforded? I live in CA, but work for the federal government, so I suppose my pay wouldn't go down.


Hard to predict but more than likely to go down. Depends on how the pie is carved up. The Canadian doctors and the California state employed doctors seem to do okay.
 
Hard to predict but more than likely to go down. Depends on how the pie is carved up. The Canadian doctors and the California state employed doctors seem to do okay.
Well, California state employed physicians are a varied bunch. University physicians are largely paid via proceeds from private insurance. State positions like prison positions have high salaries in part because they are competing with the private sector for talent, and a private sector is being paid by proceeds from private insurance. If private insurance went away, inevitably state salaries would go down because there would be nothing for them to be competing against.
 
Well, California state employed physicians are a varied bunch. University physicians are largely paid via proceeds from private insurance. State positions like prison positions have high salaries in part because they are competing with the private sector for talent, and a private sector is being paid by proceeds from private insurance. If private insurance went away, inevitably state salaries would go down because there would be nothing for them to be competing against.


I was specifically thinking of state employed doctors who work at county hospitals like harbor-UCLA, Olive view, and Santa Clara Valley medical center. Their incomes are publicly posted and exceed most in private practice.
 
I was specifically thinking of state employed doctors who work at county hospitals like harbor-UCLA, Olive view, and Santa Clara Valley medical center. Their incomes are publicly posted and exceed most in private practice.
Those guys make a ton. Some of them are around a million a year in total compensation for limited work. They’re basically all given COLA plus “merit” raises of a few percent a year, which effectively boosts their salary like compounded interest. Kind of crazy…
 
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