AB890 passed - full practice right to FNPs. What is FM MD/DO in California take on this?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I see literally endless posts on Reddit about inappropriate management by psych NPs.

There is an NP in the gen surgery department where I’m doing my surgery rotation. She is amazing. She knows her role and does it very well. That’s what an NP is supposed to be. Not practicing the broadest fields of medicine with effectively or literally no oversight.
Oh I'm not saying they're ideal. A lot of the time I get patients that they just don't know what to do with. The dangerous ones are the ones that can't set their egos aside and realize they're in over their heads. But for managing some of the simpler cases? They often do fine.

More dangerous are the therapists that tell primary care doctors what to prescribe and the primary care docs somehow go along with it, such as a patient prescribed bupropion despite having a primary diagnosis of bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, and epilepsy as an underlying medical condition.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh I'm not saying they're ideal. A lot of the time I get patients that they just don't know what to do with. The dangerous ones are the ones that can't set their egos aside and realize they're in over their heads. But for managing some of the simpler cases? They often do fine.

More dangerous are the therapists that tell primary care doctors what to prescribe and the primary care docs somehow go along with it, such as a patient prescribed bupropion despite having a primary diagnosis of bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, and epilepsy as an underlying medical condition.

Lord. Even I know that’s inappropriate.
 
More dangerous are the therapists that tell primary care doctors what to prescribe and the primary care docs somehow go along with it, such as a patient prescribed bupropion despite having a primary diagnosis of bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, and epilepsy as an underlying medical condition.

On the rare occasion that a non-physician has “told me what to prescribe,” I made sure to prescribe something else.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 6 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I dunno, in psych we have plenty of NPs and they all send the cases they can't solve to physicians because they seem to recognize the limits of their abilities. Most often, anyway. When they don't it doesn't go well, but thankfully most of the ones I've worked with know when to ask for help.

Pandora's box has already been opened; we need to learn to differentiate ourselves based on the quality of service provided and our outcomes if we intend to thrive into the future

Even as an intern I have seen some psych NPs do some WEIRD stuff. Admittedly, the psychiatry attendings I had in 3rd/4th year were very conservative in their treatment approaches, but the amount of messy polypharmacy and dangerous med regimens I saw in just those couple rotations alone was scary. As an FM resident, I try to manage my patient's psych issues and meds as best I can before referring to behavioral health and we definitely appreciate the assistance. But it's super disconcerting when they get sent back to me having been started on like four psychotropic meds after only 1-2 visits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
How do they square this with saying residents can’t moonlight by requiring 3 years of GME for an independent license? Someone with a medical degree and an intern year isn’t safe to practice independently, but someone with an online education with little to no medical courses and 500 hours of “shadowing” in a single specialty is safe to practice anywhere?

I just don’t understand how these things keep passing. The only explanation that makes sense is $$$$
Lots of nurses, lots of lobbying money..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I dunno, in psych we have plenty of NPs and they all send the cases they can't solve to physicians because they seem to recognize the limits of their abilities. Most often, anyway. When they don't it doesn't go well, but thankfully most of the ones I've worked with know when to ask for help.

Pandora's box has already been opened; we need to learn to differentiate ourselves based on the quality of service provided and our outcomes if we intend to thrive into the future
Not out in private practice land where I am. They don't know what they don't know and won't refer $$$
 
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: 2 users
This is laughable on so many levels. Yeah that antiquated FFS model where you were paid to see patients. You sound like a corporate shill just riding out the rest of your career. Maybe its being pounded into the ground with the relentless nursing propaganda NP = MD that has gotten to you.

Not like it matters because pretty soon your patients, if you actually still see any, will trust your NP more than they ever trusted you. But don't worry! by the time your overlords realize that you are just an overpaid middle manager you'll be moving on to retirement where you can look back on a life of selling out youre own profession and dabbling in patient care.

Yeah there's a clear need for NP/PA's and corporate medicine has spoken: its EVERYWHERE they can save money!

Is there a roll on NP cannot fill? or is that question just as baffling to you?
Mid-levels don't save money. They clock out and bankers hours and see fewer people. They take longer to see patients too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
On the rare occasion that a non-physician has “told me what to prescribe,” I made sure to prescribe something else.
Same, although usually what I see is "I think they'd benefit from <insert drug class here>" which is more reasonable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
No need for direct name calling. I work at an FQHC and receive no additional compensation for supervision of my NP colleagues. After about 1 year, being independently licensed, they generally need little, if any scheduled direct supervision. Without NPs serving our state, there would simply be large swaths of our population without access to primary care. The negative attitudes towards NPs cropping up here and on this forum baffle me. There is a clear need and place for NPs and PAs in US healthcare. Maybe it has less of a roll in past fee for service and private practice models being transitioned out. I have little interest in working in the old models and don't see that outcomes support a need to continue to defend them with fervor.
Yes you work at a place with no increased malpractice for supervision of mid-levels either as there is so little risk of malpractice at a place like that to begin with.
In my area, older docs with one foot on retirement "supervise" many mid-levels, even ones hundreds of miles away, just for $$$
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Oh I'm not saying they're ideal. A lot of the time I get patients that they just don't know what to do with. The dangerous ones are the ones that can't set their egos aside and realize they're in over their heads. But for managing some of the simpler cases? They often do fine.

More dangerous are the therapists that tell primary care doctors what to prescribe and the primary care docs somehow go along with it, such as a patient prescribed bupropion despite having a primary diagnosis of bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, and epilepsy as an underlying medical condition.
Don't forget psychologists have prescribing rights in a few states...
 
Don't forget psychologists have prescribing rights in a few states...
And god is that terrifying. I can't even imagine practicing another area of medicine as a physician without further training and they think they can just practice a medical specialty with no training whatsoever. A lot of psychiatry is understanding the other medications patients are on, the basic biochemistry, physiology, and pharmacology of medicine, and ruling out a lot of underlying neurological conditions. It just sounds irresponsibly dangerous
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
And god is that terrifying. I can't even imagine practicing another area of medicine as a physician without further training and they think they can just practice a medical specialty with no training whatsoever. A lot of psychiatry is understanding the other medications patients are on, the basic biochemistry, physiology, and pharmacology of medicine, and ruling out a lot of underlying neurological conditions. It just sounds irresponsibly dangerous

I mean that’s exactly what NPs are doing now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
There are data that refute this. Your anecdote experience doesn’t trump the studies showing they don’t practice in rural areas any more than physicians do.

Please do share. I actually want to learn and not just prove a point. Extending my perspective, here's an interesting analysis of CA and WA at least. Again, this does not by itself support regulations for independent practice (I'm making a narrow point here before someone leaps into a non sequitur). Maybe a lot has changed in 18 years. But the analysis, in terms of comparator, is sound - the proportion of rural and underserved within a professional group, within large Western states where it matters more, compared to others. The other relevant analysis would be within the location, the proportion of the providers who were midlevels.


Results: Physician assistants ranked first or second in each state in the proportion of their members practicing in rural areas and HPSAs, and in California physician assistants also had the greatest proportion of their members working in vulnerable populations areas (P < .001). Compared with primary care physicians overall, nurse practitioners and certified nurse-midwives also tended to have a greater proportion of their members in rural areas and HPSAs (P < .001). Family physicians were much more likely than other primary care physicians to work in rural areas and HPSAs (P < .001). Compared with physicians, nonphysician clinicians in California had a substantially greater proportion of Medicaid, uninsured, and minority patients (P < .001).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Bad care causing harm is worse than no care in many instances.

Two thoughts.

1. Care is complex and there's a whole fascinating literature on medical anthropology, quality, and value where this really doesn't hold up. What we think matters and what the patient thinks matters are different. Quality should be necessary, I don't think anyone disagrees. But most of us opt for dignity and experience, over marginal gains in some outcomes (the difference of bedside manner, and the danger, think charming and incompetent). I doubt any of the remote communities I've worked in would opt for no care.

2. The second thought is, while entirely understandable confirmation bias from the path we've all taken, medical care is, not in an individual case but certainly at a population level, such a small determinant of our well-being and lifespan relative to geography, community, employment, housing, other social services and social determinants. Which is not to say it does not matter, but let's not overstate either the potential miracles or potential harms we make in the larger picture.

I think less skilled primary care primarily leads to various forms of waste, missed opportunities (most of which are ultimately marginal though), but not really many serious harms. Following guidelines well can lead to a lot of good, less trained folks often do that better (nurses are better at handwashing than us), and while better is possible with appropriate deviation based on deeper understanding, somehow I fail to see that materialize as much as I'd expect plus going back to #2. Most of us think we're better than the guidelines but only a subset really are. That said, I could never do the former, its too robotic and removes the art of practice I love so much. But there's a real tension to acknowledge.
 
I dunno, in psych we have plenty of NPs and they all send the cases they can't solve to physicians because they seem to recognize the limits of their abilities. Most often, anyway. When they don't it doesn't go well, but thankfully most of the ones I've worked with know when to ask for help.

Pandora's box has already been opened; we need to learn to differentiate ourselves based on the quality of service provided and our outcomes if we intend to thrive into the future
Honestly, my experience with the ones in-house is pretty good. They tend to be cautious, ask for help, and try not to keep people on ridiculous regimens.

My experience from the ones outside of the system is completely the opposite. They have these psych clinics either by themselves or with 1 psychiatrist as med director, then they diagnose everyone that complains of inattention with ADHD, then they give them Xanax and low dose SSRI for anxiety, augment with Ability and then give them Seroquel for insomnia and Ativan for worsening anxiety (aka akathisia). Invariably, they'll end up on lamotrigine with a bipolar diagnosis.

We don't see these patients until they get referred to us for second opinion (requested by patient or family) or for ECT/TMS intake, or worse yet when they're admitted for altered mental status, failure to thrive or dizziness/falls. The notes almost never have a formulation (even the intakes), just a copy-forwarded line repeating the diagnosis codes and 1-2 line HPI, if that, which feels more or less like a ROS, and then autofilled metrics.

These may be some of the worst cases, but the ones I see on an almost weekly basis are the people on high dose stimulants, scheduled benzos for anxiety and sleep aids (other sedative hypnotic) for insomnia.

Not out in private practice land where I am. They don't know what they don't know and won't refer $$$
Exactly, that's my experience as well.
 
Last edited:
  • Wow
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Please do share. I actually want to learn and not just prove a point. Extending my perspective, here's an interesting analysis of CA and WA at least. Again, this does not by itself support regulations for independent practice (I'm making a narrow point here before someone leaps into a non sequitur). Maybe a lot has changed in 18 years. But the analysis, in terms of comparator, is sound - the proportion of rural and underserved within a professional group, within large Western states where it matters more, compared to others. The other relevant analysis would be within the location, the proportion of the providers who were midlevels.


Results: Physician assistants ranked first or second in each state in the proportion of their members practicing in rural areas and HPSAs, and in California physician assistants also had the greatest proportion of their members working in vulnerable populations areas (P < .001). Compared with primary care physicians overall, nurse practitioners and certified nurse-midwives also tended to have a greater proportion of their members in rural areas and HPSAs (P < .001). Family physicians were much more likely than other primary care physicians to work in rural areas and HPSAs (P < .001). Compared with physicians, nonphysician clinicians in California had a substantially greater proportion of Medicaid, uninsured, and minority patients (P < .001).

It’s literally already been posted in this thread.

For Our Patients and Families: The NP Independent Practice Problem, Why You Should Care, and What You Can Do - Physicians for Patient Protection

And you might want to read the methods section of that “study” you cited. Besides having 24 year old data, the methods are literally set up to find areas where there are few doctors and then say “hey midlevels do more rural than physicians!”
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Two thoughts.

1. Care is complex and there's a whole fascinating literature on medical anthropology, quality, and value where this really doesn't hold up. What we think matters and what the patient thinks matters are different. Quality should be necessary, I don't think anyone disagrees. But most of us opt for dignity and experience, over marginal gains in some outcomes (the difference of bedside manner, and the danger, think charming and incompetent). I doubt any of the remote communities I've worked in would opt for no care.

2. The second thought is, while entirely understandable confirmation bias from the path we've all taken, medical care is, not in an individual case but certainly at a population level, such a small determinant of our well-being and lifespan relative to geography, community, employment, housing, other social services and social determinants. Which is not to say it does not matter, but let's not overstate either the potential miracles or potential harms we make in the larger picture.

I think less skilled primary care primarily leads to various forms of waste, missed opportunities (most of which are ultimately marginal though), but not really many serious harms. Following guidelines well can lead to a lot of good, less trained folks often do that better (nurses are better at handwashing than us), and while better is possible with appropriate deviation based on deeper understanding, somehow I fail to see that materialize as much as I'd expect plus going back to #2. Most of us think we're better than the guidelines but only a subset really are. That said, I could never do the former, its too robotic and removes the art of practice I love so much. But there's a real tension to acknowledge.

Where are you in training? I’m just a med student and I know that poor primary care leads to harms, sometimes very serious. And by the way, increased costs, work loss, and anxiety are harms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Look, keep an open mind and try and learn, wait for the real word before cementing yourself this way. "Med student" and "knows" together should be far more tempered and its not much fun for a discussion. I'm 3 years post residency and medicine is a calling and not a career for me, I don't mean to say that's better than others but just context for a different perspective. Either way, midlevels never threaten anyone's calling, and only those careers that are mediocre.

I had checked that link, and while it says the claim is false it presents no data or reference and just links to a general mapper tool from that excellent paragon of reason that is the AMA.

 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Two thoughts.

1. Care is complex and there's a whole fascinating literature on medical anthropology, quality, and value where this really doesn't hold up. What we think matters and what the patient thinks matters are different. Quality should be necessary, I don't think anyone disagrees. But most of us opt for dignity and experience, over marginal gains in some outcomes (the difference of bedside manner, and the danger, think charming and incompetent). I doubt any of the remote communities I've worked in would opt for no care.

2. The second thought is, while entirely understandable confirmation bias from the path we've all taken, medical care is, not in an individual case but certainly at a population level, such a small determinant of our well-being and lifespan relative to geography, community, employment, housing, other social services and social determinants. Which is not to say it does not matter, but let's not overstate either the potential miracles or potential harms we make in the larger picture.

I think less skilled primary care primarily leads to various forms of waste, missed opportunities (most of which are ultimately marginal though), but not really many serious harms. Following guidelines well can lead to a lot of good, less trained folks often do that better (nurses are better at handwashing than us), and while better is possible with appropriate deviation based on deeper understanding, somehow I fail to see that materialize as much as I'd expect plus going back to #2. Most of us think we're better than the guidelines but only a subset really are. That said, I could never do the former, its too robotic and removes the art of practice I love so much. But there's a real tension to acknowledge.
I think there is a difference between saying that guidelines are valuable and saying that guidelines define effective primary care. Absolutely, guidelines are valuable, they are also incomplete, insufficient, and often change. When a guideline says, "use clinical judgement", what exactly should the NP be doing? Especially when all of their training has not taught them to analyze and apply information, but rather to follow an algorithm.

The other issue is that I agree that generally speaking even algorithmic care is likely better than none, but this assumes NPs are actually following algorithms and guidelines. Your example of a nurse washing their hands is not only outdated, but its also examining a completely different population. An NP may have never even worked as a nurse.

You might be able to argue that when NPs are in clinics with physicians or with physician oversight or with larger healthcare systems that put forth guidelines, they will probably follow them. That's not what this thread is about though. Its about independent or unsupervised practice (i.e. FPA in CA). Who's going to enforce the guidelines on the NP in the low-T clinic giving every testosterone? Or worse yet, the straight out of school RN that started a PMHNP program from prescribing stimulants to anyone that complains of inattention? Or how about the unsupervised FNP manning an ED by themself from missing obvious cases of PEs (jump to 6:25 for the case)?

I get your apprehension. You work with NPs. Like I said before, there are appropriately trained and practicing NPs, and they are great to work with. But the point that multiple people on here have been making is that when they work outside of their scope, i.e. when they work independently without oversight, combined with the horrible changes in their training over the last decade, that is going to be harmful to patients and healthcare as a whole.

I will also say that I don't think this is solely on the shoulders of NPs, although the AANP's stances makes that a bit hard to argue. Its obvious who is actually benefiting from this. Its the for-profit schools opening up online degrees, its the large academic centers profiting from both online and brick and mortar schools, and it the hospitals and healthcare systems trying to save money any way they can, by doing things like firing the anesthesiologists and switching to a big anesthesia corporation, which found it appropriate to have 1 anesthesiologist oversee CRNAs across a huge hospital system, regardless of the potential dangers to patients.

EDIT: Also just noticed in getting some of those links that that podcast actually has one talking about AB890 specifically.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Topraman being three years out of residency and feeling the way he does makes sense. He's young and has been indoctrinated with this. Us older Physicians don't know anything.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Topraman being three years out of residency and feeling the way he does makes sense. He's young and has been indoctrinated with this. Us older Physicians don't know anything.
I’m 3yrs out and right there with you. It’s blatant at my hospital, they want PA’s over docs, to the point that they’re screwing docs out of ER shifts because they know they can pay PA’s less. They also offer docs absolute crap pay to do the supervision and just try to guilt us into

I don’t often feel comfortable sending my patients to our ER anymore because I’ve had so many be mismanaged; and the administration doesn’t even care.

I also don’t supervise PA’s.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I’m 3yrs out and right there with you. It’s blatant at my hospital, they want PA’s over docs, to the point that they’re screwing docs out of ER shifts because they know they can pay PA’s less. They also offer docs absolute crap pay to do the supervision and just try to guilt us into

I don’t often feel comfortable sending my patients to our ER anymore because I’ve had so many be mismanaged; and the administration doesn’t even care.

I also don’t supervise PA’s.
Admin is bean counters. They only care about money. If there are errors then the patient has to come back to the hospital for more treatment. Win win
 
@hallowmann I hear you, I really do. Not necessarily the examples, as flagrant as they are there's plenty of physician examples, but the lack of regulatory repercussion as a feedback mechanism is troubling and would preclude independent practice.

I think the bigger issue, is that while I would, and I suspect you might, support independent practice under X conditions (standardization of training, competency based exit exams, effective boards, etc), many if not most who are posting would oppose under any conditions didn't mirror physician requirements point by point. It's a matter of principle devoid of the context. If the framework is that mid-levels do have a different, narrower, scope, then by definition the training and demands are not the same so we should be comfortable accepting that. And then its the matter of how central is independent practice to the definition of appropriate scope where we might vary.

The financial interests driving this are of course suspect. But that's across the board in American medicine from reimbursements, specialty salaries and the RVU cabal, the division of GME funding, the regulatory/safety nexus and much more. That doesn't mean that there isn't merit in approaches to allow the best use of a professional's skills while trying to mitigate the consequences of doing so as to not drive us further into the asylum our healthcare system inhabits. Family medicine began as a counterculture, it should continue as one, and for me that means questioning and challenging restrictions of practice, both our own and for others.
 
@hallowmann I hear you, I really do. Not necessarily the examples, as flagrant as they are there's plenty of physician examples, but the lack of regulatory repercussion as a feedback mechanism is troubling and would preclude independent practice.

I think the bigger issue, is that while I would, and I suspect you might, support independent practice under X conditions (standardization of training, competency based exit exams, effective boards, etc), many if not most who are posting would oppose under any conditions didn't mirror physician requirements point by point. It's a matter of principle devoid of the context. If the framework is that mid-levels do have a different, narrower, scope, then by definition the training and demands are not the same so we should be comfortable accepting that. And then its the matter of how central is independent practice to the definition of appropriate scope where we might vary.

The financial interests driving this are of course suspect. But that's across the board in American medicine from reimbursements, specialty salaries and the RVU cabal, the division of GME funding, the regulatory/safety nexus and much more. That doesn't mean that there isn't merit in approaches to allow the best use of a professional's skills while trying to mitigate the consequences of doing so as to not drive us further into the asylum our healthcare system inhabits. Family medicine began as a counterculture, it should continue as one, and for me that means questioning and challenging restrictions of practice, both our own and for others.

I think the difficulty of establishing a limited scope is the biggest challenge. Standardizing education etc can be done I’m sure, but what’s the line on scope? How do you define that? Easier to define in specialty fields than a generalist fields.

I think empiric evidence also demonstrates that maintaining limited scope is near impossible. np and pa lobby clearly feels- and has expressed explicitly- that their training is enough to be independent of and equal to physician practice. Ego/ financial/ other conflicts of interest goes both ways and I don’t think, short of legislative action we are going to reach that place of compromise that you’re describing, putting aside even the difficulty establishing reasonable scope of practice in the first place
 
@SXMMD Agree. Difficult. Ego and conflicts certainly both ways. And, on average, not equal at all I think we've all seen in real life on many counts.

But defining scope, that's the entire challenge for FM as well though no? I don't think it's possible to define scope from a legislative/regulatory standpoint if one believes in competency based approaches, whether for a physician or for a nurse. All is know, without a doubt, is my scope is far wider and my work attests to that difference beyond a doubt. It's easier to recognize transgressions of scope post hoc in specific cases and so on the proactive side competency based privileging and licensing, and on the reactive side, appropriate professional disciplinary actions, can maintain the appropriate scope for an individual. Of course defining competency and appropriate as a community are challenges in themselves, but perhaps more worthwhile than living in an overly prescribed world of limited possibility.

In a simpler way, let the experiences and outcomes speak for themselves.
 
They have never been, nor will they ever be, my colleagues you ball-less, sycophantic, soy boy sell out.
The most perfect response to such cringe. This was your magnum opus on this platform. Farewell, brave soldier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The most perfect response to such cringe. This was your magnum opus on this platform. Farewell, brave soldier.
Yeah, that post got >50 likes. I can't imagine that was the thing that got him booted, but...who knows?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
They have never been, nor will they ever be, my colleagues you ball-less, sycophantic, soy boy sell out.
Have to love the enthusiasm in this post.

I would be very careful if I was a family doc about embracing NP independent practice.

scope of practice, top of license, these were phrases made by the nursing societies for a reason.
 
Support it fully. If you're threatened by it then you need to up your skills to the point where you're simply not doing the same things. And if that's the case already your work should speak for itself. FM of all specialties should understand the tenuous link between formal qualification and competency.

We should be worried about the factors in medicine that limit our patients access and outcomes and our relationship with them and those that limit our ability to address these.
Please expand how it is you can demonstrate your value over mid levels. Nobody cares, nobody will notice, patients have no clue who is treating them, mistakes go unnoticed, even if you are high giving yourself after ever patient encounter, your still replaceable.

look at what’s happened with anesthesiology and EM, but surely IM and FM will be different. Give it a few years and NPs will be saying your equivalent, training doesn’t matter, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Please expand how it is you can demonstrate your value over mid levels. Nobody cares, nobody will notice, patients have no clue who is treating them, mistakes go unnoticed, even if you are high giving yourself after ever patient encounter, your still replaceable.

look at what’s happened with anesthesiology and EM, but surely IM and FM will be different. Give it a few years and NPs will be saying your equivalent, training doesn’t matter, etc.
They will try, no doubt. But we need to continue pointing out that their PhD thesis on handwashing doesn't make the NP my colleague or peer. Our national societies are next to useless in fighting these battles. It will soon come down to assimilate or retire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
They will try, no doubt. But we need to continue pointing out that their PhD thesis on handwashing doesn't make the NP my colleague or peer. Our national societies are next to useless in fighting these battles. It will soon come down to assimilate or retire.
Yep I'm looking to get out soon. I don't know how these young docs will fare
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Please expand how it is you can demonstrate your value over mid levels. Nobody cares, nobody will notice, patients have no clue who is treating them, mistakes go unnoticed, even if you are high giving yourself after ever patient encounter, your still replaceable.

look at what’s happened with anesthesiology and EM, but surely IM and FM will be different. Give it a few years and NPs will be saying your equivalent, training doesn’t matter, etc.
Not saying FM is completely safe, but we are pretty different from EM and anesthesia in multiple ways.

Our patients choose us specifically. They don't just show up at the office and get assigned to someone.

We aren't tied to hospitals. It's much easier to start a new FM office than a new hospital/surgery center/FSED.

Plenty of physician only groups out there. And even those that aren't often minimize midlevels. My group limits NPs to one per 5 doctors in each office. We have 5 open positions for doctors, 0 for NPs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not saying FM is completely safe, but we are pretty different from EM and anesthesia in multiple ways.

Our patients choose us specifically. They don't just show up at the office and get assigned to someone.

We aren't tied to hospitals. It's much easier to start a new FM office than a new hospital/surgery center/FSED.

Plenty of physician only groups out there. And even those that aren't often minimize midlevels. My group limits NPs to one per 5 doctors in each office. We have 5 open positions for doctors, 0 for NPs.
Heard it a million times …. No way a mid level could replace me for x, y, z reason ….
 
Heard it a million times …. No way a mid level could replace me for x, y, z reason ….
I didn't say that at all. You'll even notice the very first thing I said was: "Not saying FM is completely safe". Merely that we're in a better position than EM and anesthesia are. That was literally it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Not saying FM is completely safe, but we are pretty different from EM and anesthesia in multiple ways.

Our patients choose us specifically. They don't just show up at the office and get assigned to someone.

We aren't tied to hospitals. It's much easier to start a new FM office than a new hospital/surgery center/FSED.

Plenty of physician only groups out there. And even those that aren't often minimize midlevels. My group limits NPs to one per 5 doctors in each office. We have 5 open positions for doctors, 0 for NPs.
I agree with this in the short term at least. Any employed physician is basically at the mercy of admin, with requirements for mid level supervision right in the contract, or if they try to push more mid levels into your department and you resist, they'll probably find a way to make life difficult for you.

Doctors in private practice can do what they choose , and patients will often pick the MD over the mid level if able to make an educated choice.
 
AB890 gave NPs full independent practice rights in California.

I'm wondering to myself why I even went to med school if nurses can do the same job as I can.

What is your take if you are practicing in California as Family Med physician?
I have not heard anyone mention NP practice rights and patient risks & subsequent lawsuits. All it'll take is ONE suit against an NP that would reveal their lack of knowledge ending up in some patient dying. However, I know they will just send patients to ED or some other state department dumping grounds if things get tough.. which is not any grounds for legal charges...
 
I have not heard anyone mention NP practice rights and patient risks & subsequent lawsuits. All it'll take is ONE suit against an NP that would reveal their lack of knowledge ending up in some patient dying. However, I know they will just send patients to ED or some other state department dumping grounds if things get tough.. which is not any grounds for legal charges...

I mean you say that, but it has already happened and nothing has changed. There have been multiple suits against NPs whose incompetence have killed or maimed patients, and not only are they still practicing, but their scope is just increasing. No one who has the power to make these changes cares about anything but money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
I mean you say that, but it has already happened and nothing has changed. There have been multiple suits against NPs whose incompetence have killed or maimed patients, and not only are they still practicing, but their scope is just increasing. No one who has the power to make these changes cares about anything but money.
I agree with you that this is how it is playing out so far.

so they are gaining FPA with literally no quality standardization in training…. then they go out into whatever practice environment they end up in and do god knows what kind of f**kery, and either their mistakes are being cleaned up and fixed by a physician or they straight up end up killing patients, as you correctly pointed out that us seeing the horrors of their mismanagement nor lawsuits are enough to exact any change…. How do we as a group of united physicians then proceed forward?

I am fortunately in a group of 5 physicians, no midlevels nor any plans to recruit. We do it all.

but im mostly thinking about those corporate mills that have their doc’s sign into these supervising/collaborative agreements with midlevels, where they effectively attack the livelihood of the physicians by forcing them into an almost ‘indentured servitude’ arrangement of where either you supervise X amount of midlevels or we’ll find someone else to do it, and ummm oh and we’re giving you half a penny on the dime to do it and we’ll keep the rest thank you very much, and on top of that they probably say why don’t you thank us doc for allowing us to place your entire value system and license on the line, have a nice day….. type situations

how do we solve that issue?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I agree with you that this is how it is playing out so far.

so they are gaining FPA with literally no quality standardization in training…. then they go out into whatever practice environment they end up in and do god knows what kind of f**kery, and either their mistakes are being cleaned up and fixed by a physician or they straight up end up killing patients, as you correctly pointed out that us seeing the horrors of their mismanagement nor lawsuits are enough to exact any change…. How do we as a group of united physicians then proceed forward?

I am fortunately in a group of 5 physicians, no midlevels nor any plans to recruit. We do it all.

but im mostly thinking about those corporate mills that have their doc’s sign into these supervising/collaborative agreements with midlevels, where they effectively attack the livelihood of the physicians by forcing them into an almost ‘indentured servitude’ arrangement of where either you supervise X amount of midlevels or we’ll find someone else to do it, and ummm oh and we’re giving you half a penny on the dime to do it and we’ll keep the rest thank you very much, and on top of that they probably say why don’t you thank us doc for allowing us to place your entire value system and license on the line, have a nice day….. type situations

how do we solve that issue?
I'm glad I'm 45 and will get out soon. The new students don't know about this...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I agree with you that this is how it is playing out so far.

so they are gaining FPA with literally no quality standardization in training…. then they go out into whatever practice environment they end up in and do god knows what kind of f**kery, and either their mistakes are being cleaned up and fixed by a physician or they straight up end up killing patients, as you correctly pointed out that us seeing the horrors of their mismanagement nor lawsuits are enough to exact any change…. How do we as a group of united physicians then proceed forward?

I am fortunately in a group of 5 physicians, no midlevels nor any plans to recruit. We do it all.

but im mostly thinking about those corporate mills that have their doc’s sign into these supervising/collaborative agreements with midlevels, where they effectively attack the livelihood of the physicians by forcing them into an almost ‘indentured servitude’ arrangement of where either you supervise X amount of midlevels or we’ll find someone else to do it, and ummm oh and we’re giving you half a penny on the dime to do it and we’ll keep the rest thank you very much, and on top of that they probably say why don’t you thank us doc for allowing us to place your entire value system and license on the line, have a nice day….. type situations

how do we solve that issue?
It's very challenging with the current climate. Most grads come out of residency with quite a lot of loan debt. And a family. The onus to start producing right now is quite high. Corporate jobs put good bait on the hook with 'loan repayment', sign on bonuses and retention bonuses. For this, you're also signing on to everything else that comes with it. It's quite attractive to not only the new grad, but also their spouse who has also put a lot of their life on hold, while trudging through the spouse role of residency.

"Hey babe, I got a couple job offers. One with HospitalMegaCorp inc. offering a 50k sign on bonus, 100k over 5 years loan repayment, guaranteed $200k for my first 2 years." "Also, another from Small4docgroup LLC offering good growth opportunity, pretty good health insurance a 20k sign on bonus and $170k guaranteed for 2 years." "I know WE have $275k of student loan debt but I really like option 2."

How do you think that conversation is going to go? Debt is crushing any potential independence new grads may have and is feeding the current situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It's very challenging with the current climate. Most grads come out of residency with quite a lot of loan debt. And a family. The onus to start producing right now is quite high. Corporate jobs put good bait on the hook with 'loan repayment', sign on bonuses and retention bonuses. For this, you're also signing on to everything else that comes with it. It's quite attractive to not only the new grad, but also their spouse who has also put a lot of their life on hold, while trudging through the spouse role of residency.

"Hey babe, I got a couple job offers. One with HospitalMegaCorp inc. offering a 50k sign on bonus, 100k over 5 years loan repayment, guaranteed $200k for my first 2 years." "Also, another from Small4docgroup LLC offering good growth opportunity, pretty good health insurance a 20k sign on bonus and $170k guaranteed for 2 years." "I know WE have $275k of student loan debt but I really like option 2."

How do you think that conversation is going to go? Debt is crushing any potential independence new grads may have and is feeding the current situation.
100 %. I’m 1 yr out from residency with a truck load of student loans. Interviews pre covid were plenty but went like this:

Small city job 1: outpatient only, 230-245 k guaranteed, 15-25k sign on bonus, 100-200k student loan repayment. Employed by hospital or big company

Small city job 2: 250-300k Hospitalist job with lots of extra shift potential. Employed by hospital or big company

Big city job 3: 190-220k guarantee, sign on and production bonuses, 50-100k student loan repayment over 5 years

Big city job 3: 220-250k Hospitalist gig

Big city ideal job: physician owned practice, traditional family med (inpt, out pt, robust Peds, just recently gave up OB) 160k without sign on bonus and we need occasional weekend to keep up with the big guys in the neighborhood
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Big city ideal job: physician owned practice, traditional family med (inpt, out pt, robust Peds, just recently gave up OB) 160k without sign on bonus and we need occasional weekend to keep up with the big guys in the neighborhood
Buy in option?
 
Top