Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

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[icebreaker32]

Ideally, enrollment (and graduation) should roughly equal the number of good programs out there. I don't think we need a two-tiered structure like dentists. If, for the sake of conversation, 50% of all residencies were insufficient/garbage and were closed, and if we graduated about that same number of students, that would solve saturation and also guarantee a higher caliber/standard for graduating residents.

Correct and if the job market was still bad despite this and other career options were seen as more desirable by pre health students then some of those good spots that are perhaps only 50 percent of current residencies might still not be filled, but there would much higher standards and consistency with training for those who did enter the profession.

If the opposite actually ever became true and multiple good jobs were constantly be emailed to us and recruiters kept constantly contacting us then quality applicants to the colleges would likely start increasing, we could slowly expand quality residencies, slowly increase enrollment at the existing colleges and perhaps eventually open new colleges.

I would not hold your breath waiting for this to VOLUNTARILY happen.....we have already opened 2 new colleges in the last 2 years alone.

 

[Feli]

Ideally, enrollment (and graduation) should roughly equal the number of good programs out there. I don't think we need a two-tiered structure like dentists. If, for the sake of conversation, 50% of all residencies were insufficient/garbage and were closed, and if we graduated about that same number of students, that would solve saturation and also guarantee a higher caliber/standard for graduating residents.

Yes, exactly. ^^

That would be the dream. If we want a logical number of high-demand and high-trained grads, we drastically cut enrollment, be selective of students, and close at least half of the numerous subpar DPM residencies. That is what ENT, ophtho, derm, plastics, or any other procedure specialty does... and it works. Even for podiatry having huge current saturation, that plan (eventually) fixes jobs, income, variance of training, board failure rates, lack of applicants, ROI, and basically every issue in podiatry. A world of many job options and $300-500k+ sounds crazy to podiatrists, but that's exactly what those other procedure docs have... because they're not saturated.

If we are going to keep the massive number of grads (hint: they will), we need two tier and should have gone to that residency model: mostly general podiatry, and some grads do longer path to be the surgical DPMs. We don't have the training programs, the public demand, the student talent, etc to have 600+ (soon to be 700+) "3 year foot and ankle surgeon" grads. That will perpetuate the hallmarks of saturation: poor job options and income relative to the time and tuition invested. Many will fail boards, get lacklustre training, struggle, and average surgical volume will be low for all. Applicant interest will continue to wane. The only people who benefit from that saturation are those who profit from the rise of podiatry education dollars, podiatrist employees, memberships for podiatrists... which are the people who make those decisions in the first place.

That makes some sense... but I didn't min[d] the 3 year residency. I think the PMSR is here to stay.

It is here to stay only because it was already decided and implemented. That was decided because MDs are 3yr minimum.

It wouldn't have been totally bad if we actually had enough good 3 year podiatry programs. It'd still be far too costly for the training debt and way too many surgical DPMs putting out 10x more than ortho F&A and nearly as many as ortho overall every year. But with good training, at least we'd have a fairly uniform product and competence, though (like MD specialists).

As it stands, we have a lot of junk programs. They fail boards, consider fellowships, struggle in job market, whatever. The programs branded them surgical but they didn't learn a lot of that stuff. They are not prepped for what their peers do and what they are expected to do. It's to bad.

But yes, APMA will make CPME double down (open new schools, expand residencies, open new residency programs) before they'd say there is a major problem. It will literally take DPM graduates suing their schools (a la Caribbean MD schools) for not being able to make a living and find jobs or pay their student loans. Even podiatry VC associate mills and HealthDrive can only absorb so many of the ballooning number of '3 year surgical podiatrist' grads. Pharmacy did the same: the ROI and applicant interest was getting so bad that they had no choice but to stop with new schools.

 

[Adam Smasher]

A little devil's advocacy: The problem with the 2-tier residency system is that it creates confusion in the public eye about what it means to be a podiatrist. In fact, this was a criticism from the allopathic world against us. They have argued that a "patchwork of providers" results in inconsistency in terms of what patients are offered, and therefore podiatry scope of practice should be limited to the capabilities of the weakest among us, not the strongest--ostensibly in the interest in patient safety.

Once upon a time, there was a 2-tier system. MD Surgeons did the surgery, podiatrists did the podiatry.

 

[icebreaker32]

 

[RollingstonePod]

ABFAS has called and emailed multiple times trying to get me to pay $300 per exam to “convert” my ITE pass to BQ. They sound quite desperate for cash. Sad and pathetic money grab really.

Sounds like you passed your 3rd year ITE exams. They are trying to save you time and money, but if you’re not planning on pursuing the ABFAS route, continue ignoring the messages or simply email back that you’re not interested.

 

[Feli]

She was one of my upperclassmen in pod school, and he did the same residency program I did.
Her pre-podiatry school story in the video is pretty cool... I wasn't aware of that. She was pretty helpful to me and others to learn how important it was to work hard in pod school, what the best residency programs are (and how important it was to seek one out), good student and resident and faculty mentors to learn from, the good clubs to attend if we had time, and other pearls. Her and a few other guys a year or two ahead of me at Barry were tremendously helpful with my development.

It is pretty sad that they have to repeatedly say in that video, "the level of training that a resident should have..."

We just have sooo many DPM residencies that have inadequate case volume, inadequate academics, directors and attending who don't really care to teach (or just aren't trained or talented enough themselves). How many program directors actually sit down with residents like, "yo, so Kyle, you bombed forefoot surgery and pre-op indications on the ITE with 15th and 10th percentile nationwide, so you need to read Chang text and McGlamry forefoot text chapters in the next couple months. You will have to put in some library time on weekends, man. Brush up on reviewing the PI manual on any of your off-pod rotation breaks; it's important. The seniors will teach you some stuff and go over Xrays weekly as well. Try the practice exam questions on ABFAS website and let me know how it goes. Good talk." Probably 10 or 20% of podiatry residencies, at most? We'd benefit so much from actual uniform standards in DPM post-grad training. It's a shame.

But let's open some more pod schools.

 

[Boba Foot]

Sounds like you passed your 3rd year ITE exams. They are trying to save you time and money, but if you’re not planning on pursuing the ABFAS route, continue ignoring the messages or simply email back that you’re not interested.

They’re trying to collect twice for an exam that residency programs have already paid for. It’s a cash grab.

 

[Dermato Fight Club]

A little devil's advocacy: The problem with the 2-tier residency system is that it creates confusion in the public eye about what it means to be a podiatrist. In fact, this was a criticism from the allopathic world against us. They have argued that a "patchwork of providers" results in inconsistency in terms of what patients are offered, and therefore podiatry scope of practice should be limited to the capabilities of the weakest among us, not the strongest--ostensibly in the interest in patient safety.

Once upon a time, there was a 2-tier system. MD Surgeons did the surgery, podiatrists did the podiatry.

I agree. The training should be the same. But it isn’t. So are you saying those who finish a 3 year residency at a top program can no longer do Rearfoot/ankle work because those at the other program have never done that sort of stuff?

The fact is that the demand of podiatry is in nails/office stuff yet we are trying to make everyone a Rearfoot/ankle surgeon.

There really is not enough Rearfoot/ankle surgical pathology to go around to justify all of this.

You need to make a decision. Two tier system or significantly limit residencies.

 

[RollingstonePod]

They’re trying to collect twice for an exam that residency programs have already paid for. It’s a cash grab.

No, the fee is for your BQ status. This has only been allowed for a couple of years. Prior to 2020, you had to pay higher fees and take a BQ exam to become board qualified regardless of your ITE results. You will eventually pay the ITE conversion fee if you plan on pursuing ABFAS certification. Fortunately for you your passing score is valid for 7 years.

 

[DYK343]

I feel like a potential fix is to stop forcing these 3 year residencies on everyone who wants to practice podiatry. Allow podiatrists to complete one year of internship and if they choose can then be a non-surgical podiatrist. If they choose to continue down a surgical path then complete the full 3 years with one surgical board. The non-surgical podiatrist would have their own board.

I think it should be 2 and 3 year residencies. As much as I hated my 9 months of non DPM rotations in residency spending a month on internal med/ICU/ER/etc really helped solidify my knowledge of medicine outside of feet. You still have to understand all the major systems even if non surgical. 1 year isnt enough.

 

[air bud]

I think it should be 2 and 3 year residencies. As much as I hated my 9 months of non DPM rotations in residency spending a month on internal med/ICU/ER/etc really helped solidify my knowledge of medicine outside of feet. You still have to understand all the major systems even if non surgical. 1 year isnt enough.

Anything I need to learn about how an ICU works, I Will learn by osmosis when I get a consult to go there and bust crumblies.

 

[Feli]

General podiatry residency 2yrs curriculum (in tee-chinggg hospital!):
1mo Surgery (Gen, Ortho, or Plastic)
1mo Vasc Surg
1mo ER
1mo Radiology
1mo Fam Med
1mo Dermatology
0.5mo Inf Dz
0.5mo Endo
0.5mo Pathology
0.5mo Rheumatology
12mo Podiatric Clinic and Inpatient Mgmt (incl 1mo research, total toenail replacement optional)
2mo Podiatry Wound Care
2mo Podiatric Surgery

Surgical podiatry residency 3-4yrs curriculum (in tee-chinggg hospital!):
1mo Ortho Surg
1mo Vasc Surg
1mo Gen Surg
1mo Plastic Surg
1mo ER
1mo Radiology
1mo Fam Med
1mo Int Med
1mo Inf Dz
1mo Endo
0.5mo Pathology
0.5mo Rheumatology
0.5mo PM&R
0.5mo Anesthesia
5mo Podiatric Clinic and Inpatient Mgmt (incl 1mo research)
1mo Podiatry Wound Care
18mo Podiatric Surgery (I would add 12 more months here since all MD surgeons doing OR stuff do 4yrs minimum... but that's debatable. I did a good 3yr program, but more volume is better... esp if surgical DPM grads would be doing surgery 2-3+ days weekly and getting refers from non-op colleagues for basically full scope F&A cases)

 

[dtrack22]

Way too much off service. Even real surgeons don’t spend that kind of time away from their primary specialty.

 

[podiatryresident]

Hello everyone. I just have a quick question about ABFAS CBPS. For example, Lisfranc injury with soft tissue swelling. In treatment of Board Wizard, they listed all of things from cast immobilization, delay surgery until soft tissue envelope normalizes, ORIF, arthrodesis,...
But when I reviewed the ABFAS practice test they said inappropriate to choose ORIF immediately for closed trauma. I agree with this but what about Board Wizard ?
Thank you so much for your help. I'm preparing a little bit for my in training tomorrow

 

[RollingstonePod]

Hello everyone. I just have a quick question about ABFAS CBPS. For example, Lisfranc injury with soft tissue swelling. In treatment of Board Wizard, they listed all of things from cast immobilization, delay surgery until soft tissue envelope normalizes, ORIF, arthrodesis,...
But when I reviewed the ABFAS practice test they said inappropriate to choose ORIF immediately for closed trauma. I agree with this but what about Board Wizard ?
Thank you so much for your help. I'm preparing a little bit for my in training tomorrow

Board Wizard is nothing more than a comprehensive review course/manual and not endorsed by ABFAS. The key to the CBPS exam is to approach the question/case like it’s a patient that presented to your clinic.

Let’s take Lisfranc for example. Pt presents with mid foot pain after stepping in a hole…. Your not going to tell the pt they need a Lisfranc fusion right off the bat. First is your exam, you’re looking for pain with palpation to TMT area, possible subtle deformity, the key with Lisfranc injuries is ecchymosis in the plantar arch. Then you move on to imaging, X-rays may show slight diastasis between 1&2, CT scan would be the next appropriate order. Maybe in the stem of the question it states the patient is diabetic. You would want to make sure they are well controlled and not neuropathic because that could have an effect on proper treatment. Etc,etc.

The CBPS exam is about accumulating points, NOT just jumping to the correct Dx and treatment. You do that by performing a thorough work up and ordering appropriate tests, then making the correct diagnosis and offering appropriate treatment options. You can also lose points by just “shot gunning” (ordering everything), so don’t do that.

 

[dtrack22]

The key to the CBPS exam is to approach the question/case like it’s a patient that presented to your clinic.

No, the key is to maximize “points” which is best done by doing things out of order from how you would normally work up a patient because of how the exam is designed. @Adam Smasher has a good post on this.

First is your exam, you’re looking for pain with palpation to TMT area, possible subtle deformity, the key with Lisfranc injuries is ecchymosis in the plantar arch. Then you move on to imaging, X-rays may show slight diastasis between 1&2, CT scan would be the next appropriate order.

Wrong again. First is imaging. You have a limited number of physical exams that you may perform (unlike in an actual patient encounter). Once you have clicked on your exams, if you discover something later with labs or imaging, you cannot go back. So order all the imaging you need first, which allows you to go to the physical exam and maximize opportunities for points within that section as you won’t waste time/clicks on things that aren’t needed. Things you may not know are or are not needed based on the question stem.

You can also lose points by just “shot gunning” (ordering everything), so don’t do that.

Strike 3. There are very few instances where you lose points for ordering any type of lab or imaging. You should look out for things like renal disease or maybe allergies listed in the question stem, but otherwise (especially with imaging) you should shotgun away in most cases. You are trying to maximize points. You don’t do that by clicking through standard exams you might do on most/all clinic encounters only to run out of exams and learn that you should have done something else once you see the CT/MRI two sections later.


And herein lies part of the problem with ABFAS. You have someone involved (or who has been involved) with the process who genuinely thinks the CBPS mimics real life, and that it is a good or even reasonable representation of clinical/diagnostic abilities. Let’s ignore the fact that it’s completely redundant (why do I need to work up a dozen computer cases and then submit 24 or 26 cases of my own where I actually work up and treat a real patient?). It’s still a test where the test taker is rewarded for employing a strategy that is almost antithetical to how you’d actually go though a patient encounter. But ABFAS folks genuinely believe that this portion of the exam simulates a patient encounter and that you are best off treating it as such. Sure, you can pass that way, but it won’t maximize your chance to pass. It shows how out of touch most of them are with their own exam process. And none of the above has anything to do with pass rates, or difficulty with the CBPS portion of the cert process. I passed that first time through no problems. It’s not that it’s difficult or unfair. It’s that it is unrealistic and unnecessary. Just another $ grab that ABFAS folks will continue to defend. Somehow.

 

[FutureDPM323]

ABFAS will ding you for picking ORIF (according to the practice exam it’s inappropriate to do so when soft tissue swelling isn’t down like duh 🙄) but anyways then they’ll throw a case at you with a second part that talks about the patient getting an ORIF (non union case) so the real question is are we to pick ORIF for the first part of a case like that or is that inappropriate too?

Genuine question if anyone has any feedback.

I took the ABFAS ITE the other day and did what Adam Smasher recommended. Felt it went pretty well. I shot gunned imaging and labs and it helped with physical exam. In the end, that’s what I do anyways like when I get a page from the ED or before I see a patient in clinic, I’m usually getting some form of imaging/labs that’s helping to point to where I should focus my physical exam. Not sure why ABFAS tells people to do otherwise especially when their question stems for the most part suck.

 

[FootGuy]

And herein lies part of the problem with ABFAS. You have someone involved (or who has been involved) with the process who genuinely thinks the CBPS mimics real life, and that it is a good or even reasonable representation of clinical/diagnostic abilities.

Admittedly, I am in the ABFAS camp, but have no direct involvement with them aside from being a diplomate.

Having passed all 4, 2 for BQ and 2 for BC, I still agree it is nothing like a real life encounter. Understandably, they are trying to assess clinical thinking in a very short time period, but the system is far from perfect. I do think ABFAS is trying to streamline and improve things, but it's still a work in progress I am sure. For example, there are often multiple options meaning the same thing. It would be a bit better if they limited the redundancy (palpate pulses, palpate DP, Palpate PT, etc) only to count them all against you as not specific enough.

I think it can definitely be better, but I do think they are listening. Probably somewhat because of the "ABPM CAQ fiasco", so in that respect the contrary positions are helpful for everyone.

 

[podiatryresident]

ABFAS will ding you for picking ORIF (according to the practice exam it’s inappropriate to do so when soft tissue swelling isn’t down like duh 🙄) but anyways then they’ll throw a case at you with a second part that talks about the patient getting an ORIF (non union case) so the real question is are we to pick ORIF for the first part of a case like that or is that inappropriate too?

Genuine question if anyone has any feedback.

I took the ABFAS ITE the other day and did what Adam Smasher recommended. Felt it went pretty well. I shot gunned imaging and labs and it helped with physical exam. In the end, that’s what I do anyways like when I get a page from the ED or before I see a patient in clinic, I’m usually getting some form of imaging/labs that’s helping to point to where I should focus my physical exam. Not sure why ABFAS tells people to do otherwise especially when their question stems for the most part suck.

I took those training exams today. I felt they weren't too difficult but the way they make exams is very awkward. I remember one case was ankle arthritis and Charcot comes in with only 2 months history of pain, foot is erythema and swelling, WBC is elevated, I believe. I saw they have 2 sections of treatment and diagnosis, follow up 1 and 2. That's why I slowly played with non-surgical treatments first... Surprisingly, when I clicked follow up, they already threw an IM nail for TTC! I was like : wtf!
And this is what abfas practice test said. I would have done much better if I didn't read this stupid "guidelines"
Thanks everyone again for tips and tricks. I will apply next year for my final.

 

[podiatryresident]

I had one cal fracture today as well. Because of that pitfall from TTC fusion, I chose ORIF for the first treatments with cast, delay surgery.... This time I'm right because the next question was about post traumatic arthritis s/p ORIF.

 

[Adam Smasher]

When I wrote this post 7 years ago:
Post in: 'ABFAS scores' ABFAS scores

I was not intending it to be the definitive guide to the patient simulation. Really I was sharing my opinion about what strategy worked for me while pointing out the idiosyncrasies (and ultimately weaknesses) of the test in my own flippant way. I'm not even sure my post is still relevant because I sincerely hope ABFAS made improvements over 7 years. Paradoxically, however, the test takers always have more at stake than the test writers, so the board has a weak incentive to make those improvements.

I think the most controversial claim I made was about shotgun labs and imaging. Anyone ordering CT, MRI, US, and Tc scan on everyone is asking for a failure. On the other hand with a lisfranc case, sometimes you need a CT, other times MRI, other times neither. Reasonable people can disagree, and that's where the test has to give the candidate the benefit of the doubt.

At the time I was preparing for the test, I felt like it was really important to understand the interface and click through everything efficiently. Like playing Star Craft. Never would I have guessed that the weekends I spent at LAN parties with my fellow virgins was I cultivating important test-taking skills!

 

[bloxxeeey]

When I wrote this post 7 years ago:
Post in: 'ABFAS scores' ABFAS scores

I was not intending it to be the definitive guide to the patient simulation. Really I was sharing my opinion about what strategy worked for me while pointing out the idiosyncrasies (and ultimately weaknesses) of the test in my own flippant way. I'm not even sure my post is still relevant because I sincerely hope ABFAS made improvements over 7 years. Paradoxically, however, the test takers always have more at stake than the test writers, so the board has a weak incentive to make those improvements.

I think the most controversial claim I made was about shotgun labs and imaging. Anyone ordering CT, MRI, US, and Tc scan on everyone is asking for a failure. On the other hand with a lisfranc case, sometimes you need a CT, other times MRI, other times neither. Reasonable people can disagree, and that's where the test has to give the candidate the benefit of the doubt.

At the time I was preparing for the test, I felt like it was really important to understand the interface and click through everything efficiently. Like playing Star Craft. Never would I have guessed that the weekends I spent at LAN parties with my fellow virgins was I cultivating important test-taking skills!

Do you have a link to your OG post? I was trying to find it the other day

 

[Feli]

Do you have a link to your OG post? I was trying to find it the other day

It's in his post that you just quoted, click the blue link.

 

[AttackNME]

When I wrote this post 7 years ago:
Post in: 'ABFAS scores' ABFAS scores

I was not intending it to be the definitive guide to the patient simulation. Really I was sharing my opinion about what strategy worked for me while pointing out the idiosyncrasies (and ultimately weaknesses) of the test in my own flippant way. I'm not even sure my post is still relevant because I sincerely hope ABFAS made improvements over 7 years. Paradoxically, however, the test takers always have more at stake than the test writers, so the board has a weak incentive to make those improvements.

I think the most controversial claim I made was about shotgun labs and imaging. Anyone ordering CT, MRI, US, and Tc scan on everyone is asking for a failure. On the other hand with a lisfranc case, sometimes you need a CT, other times MRI, other times neither. Reasonable people can disagree, and that's where the test has to give the candidate the benefit of the doubt.

At the time I was preparing for the test, I felt like it was really important to understand the interface and click through everything efficiently. Like playing Star Craft. Never would I have guessed that the weekends I spent at LAN parties with my fellow virgins was I cultivating important test-taking skills!

You’re the SlayerS_'BoxeR' of ABFAS testing strategy

 

[Feli]

An organization whose board of directors and exec director walked out this year,
whose CAQ scheme actions drew criticism from nearly every major organization in podiatry,
whose president is now well past July 2023 term expiration,
whose same president avoided unanimous impeach vote with the help of past president,
who had "remaining board" (president, past president) appointed non-elected replacement board of directors yes-men without any membership input,
whose "remaining board" and "nominating committee" (same ppl) nominates the only few bad and worse choices for new board members (no write in available)...

Yes, that organization would like to talk about transparency and conflicts of interest :

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Feli, I know you're not a fan, but if you're going to be critical, at least get your facts straight.

And it's not a zero-sum game. You can dislike me and also be critical of CPME's actions and inactions. I had this quote painted on the wall of the ABPM Boardroom at Headquarters. "It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable." - Molière

An organization whose board of directors and exec director walked out this year,

Mostly true. The executive director did resign followed by some of the board of directors.

whose CAQ scheme actions drew criticism from nearly every major organization in podiatry,

Also true. But ask why is that?

CPME: Controlled by a majority with ABFAS conflicts of interest
ABFAS: Duh
ACFAS: Duh
APMA: Mostly just weak leadership and no ability to complete a vision. (They publicly support one board and not using BC for state licensure, however, you'd never know it from their communications)

Also note, our CAQs do not fall under the authority of any of those organizations.

whose president is now well past July 2023 term expiration,

False. Per the ABPM Bylaws, officer terms expire at the Annual Meeting of Members. Article VII, Section 3. [Officers] shall assume their positions at the annual meeting of members.

Article VI, Section 1. The annual meeting of the members shall be held at such date and time as shall be determined by the Board of Directors.

The BOD selected December 8, 2023 for the Annual Meeting of Members. My term as President will expire then.

whose same president avoided unanimous impeach vote with the help of past president,

False. Article VIII. Section 3. Any officer may be removed by a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the eligible voting Directors whenever, in their judgment doing so would serve the best interests of the Board.

This vote was held during executive session, but the 2/3 threshold was not reached.

who "remaining board" (president, past president) appointed non-elected replacement board of directors yes-men without any membership input,
whose "remaining board" and "nominating committee" (same ppl) nominates the only few bad and worse choices for new board members (no write in available)...

False. We followed the procedures for filling vacancies outlined in Article VII. Section 6. Any vacancy occurring in the Board of Directors shall be filled by majority vote of the Board of Directors. Each Director appointed to fill a vacancy shall hold office for the unexpired term of their predecessor in office. The current Board of Directors can be viewed here.

Also false that there were no options for BOD candidates not recommended by the Nominations Committee. Per Article IX. Section 2, 120 days in advance of an election a call for petitions for nominations to the BOD is made, including self-nomination. This was emailed to Diplomates as required and none were received.

Yes, that organization would like to talk about transparency and conflicts of interest :

Yes, we would and we're the only ones talking about it.

In fact we've been running a whole campaign dedicated to it. Our Podiatry Forward campaign focuses on clarity, fairness, and unity.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

View attachment 378145

Also you didn't post the whole statement.

It can be read here.

 

[footshazam]

An organization whose board of directors and exec director walked out this year,
whose CAQ scheme actions drew criticism from nearly every major organization in podiatry,
whose president is now well past July 2023 term expiration,
whose same president avoided unanimous impeach vote with the help of past president,
who had "remaining board" (president, past president) appointed non-elected replacement board of directors yes-men without any membership input,
whose "remaining board" and "nominating committee" (same ppl) nominates the only few bad and worse choices for new board members (no write in available)...

Yes, that organization would like to talk about transparency and conflicts of interest :
View attachment 378145

I’m not sure what all of this means but it seems messy lol

 

[FootGuy]

I am not in favor of trying to limit a DPM's priveleges because they're ABPM certified as opposed to ABFAS certified, but let's cut to the chase. The argument for parity with ABFAS, along with a single board doesn't seem as valid when you compare what it takes to achieve one over the other.

ABPM - board certification without seeing a single patient as an attending or doing even a single independent surgery straight out of residency.

ABFAS - board certification after both board qualification exams, computerized simulated patients, and ACTUAL case reviews (11 foot / 11 RRA) required after having been an attending at least for long enough to do the cases.

Not to turn the light on, but even on its face the CAQ and ABFAS cert. in NO WAY = parody. Call it what you want, but I'll take the ABFAS DPM over ABPM CAQ DPM 100/100 baring some extenuating circumstance. Why? Because WHY NOT?

I get that there are good doctors in both camps, but which one offers at least a decreased likelihood of a DPM not having at least basic competency in surgery?

No, I am not looking to "poke the sleeping bear", but it's hard to buy into the "All for One" approach when the standards are easily aguably much lower and historically everyone went with the "Get ABPM certified if you can't pass ABFAS" mentality. If ABPM wants parody for all, they should change their standards and improve on what ABFAS could do better with their testing, instead of pretending there is no difference.

The entire ABPM bashing on ABFAS thing continually is getting old and the more it happens, the more it appears self-serving.

 

[podiatryresident]

Also you didn't post the whole statement.

It can be read here.

Hi Dr. Rogers. About ABPM : is there any hospital in California denies surgical privileges for the DPMs who only have ABPM ? Thank you

 

[myfeetrkillingme]

Feli, I know you're not a fan, but if you're going to be critical, at least get your facts straight.

And it's not a zero-sum game. You can dislike me and also be critical of CPME's actions and inactions. I had this quote painted on the wall of the ABPM Boardroom at Headquarters. "It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable." - Molière

Mostly true. The executive director did resign followed by some of the board of directors.

Also true. But ask why is that?

CPME: Controlled by a majority with ABFAS conflicts of interest
ABFAS: Duh
ACFAS: Duh
APMA: Mostly just weak leadership and no ability to complete a vision. (They publicly support one board and not using BC for state licensure, however, you'd never know it from their communications)

Also note, our CAQs do not fall under the authority of any of those organizations.

False. Per the ABPM Bylaws, officer terms expire at the Annual Meeting of Members. Article VII, Section 3. [Officers] shall assume their positions at the annual meeting of members.

Article VI, Section 1. The annual meeting of the members shall be held at such date and time as shall be determined by the Board of Directors.

The BOD selected December 8, 2023 for the Annual Meeting of Members. My term as President will expire then.

False. Article VIII. Section 3. Any officer may be removed by a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the eligible voting Directors whenever, in their judgment doing so would serve the best interests of the Board.

This vote was held during executive session, but the 2/3 threshold was not reached.

False. We followed the procedures for filling vacancies outlined in Article VII. Section 6. Any vacancy occurring in the Board of Directors shall be filled by majority vote of the Board of Directors. Each Director appointed to fill a vacancy shall hold office for the unexpired term of their predecessor in office. The current Board of Directors can be viewed here.

Also false that there were no options for BOD candidates not recommended by the Nominations Committee. Per Article IX. Section 2, 120 days in advance of an election a call for petitions for nominations to the BOD is made, including self-nomination. This was emailed to Diplomates as required and none were received.

Yes, we would and we're the only ones talking about it.

In fact we've been running a whole campaign dedicated to it. Our Podiatry Forward campaign focuses on clarity, fairness, and unity.

View attachment 378154

When the majority of the ABPM board walked out were you a legal board to have the ability to vote for new members? Why wouldn’t it go to your members for a vote?
The other issue is why did a large portion of the ABPM executive committee want Dr Rogers out and subsequently walked when it was not possible?

 

[heybrother]

When the majority of the ABPM board walked out were you a legal board to have the ability to vote for new members? Why wouldn’t it go to your members for a vote?
The other issue is why did a large portion of the ABPM executive committee want Dr Rogers out and subsequently walked when it was not possible?

Because that's not what the bylaws say to do. I don't know if you are a member but I am. At some point semi-recently there was a bylaw updating vote. Out of curiosity I found myself looking for the section on how the board would be filled. I'm not a lawyer but what they did is what it says - essentially the people who remain fill the spots.

If you don't like it - update the bylaws of the organizations you are in.

The other day I got bylaw votes for one of the hospitals I operate at. There were bylaws for staff and bylaws for hospital rules. It was like 200 pages of material. I literally sat down and scrolled through the entire thing looking for podiatry to make sure nothing was changing relating to the profession. I wouldn't be able to stop it, but I don't want to vote against myself either.

Stuff like this seems like painful blah until you find yourself starring down something weird you don't like.

*If the board had been filled in a fashion not in line with the bylaws presumably membership could have grounds to sue... I haven't seen anything about a lawsuit.

 

[deleted1161719]

I am not in favor of trying to limit a DPM's priveleges because they're ABPM certified as opposed to ABFAS certified, but let's cut to the chase. The argument for parity with ABFAS, along with a single board doesn't seem as valid when you compare what it takes to achieve one over the other.

ABPM - board certification without seeing a single patient as an attending or doing even a single independent surgery straight out of residency.

ABFAS - board certification after both board qualification exams, computerized simulated patients, and ACTUAL case reviews (11 foot / 11 RRA) required after having been an attending at least for long enough to do the cases.

Not to turn the light on, but even on its face the CAQ and ABFAS cert. in NO WAY = parody. Call it what you want, but I'll take the ABFAS DPM over ABPM CAQ DPM 100/100 baring some extenuating circumstance. Why? Because WHY NOT?

I get that there are good doctors in both camps, but which one offers at least a decreased likelihood of a DPM not having at least basic competency in surgery?

No, I am not looking to "poke the sleeping bear", but it's hard to buy into the "All for One" approach when the standards are easily aguably much lower and historically everyone went with the "Get ABPM certified if you can't pass ABFAS" mentality. If ABPM wants parody for all, they should change their standards and improve on what ABFAS could do better with their testing, instead of pretending there is no difference.

The entire ABPM bashing on ABFAS thing continually is getting old and the more it happens, the more it appears self-serving.

Podiatry boards need to be more like MD/DO boards. Some people are salty that Lee C. Rogers beat them to the punch with CAQs; LCR probably realized that they are commonplace in the MD/DO world because he actually works with MD/DOs… Unlike random ABFAS-certified “foot and ankle surgeons” who live in middle of nowhere and would sooner commit billing fraud than call themselves podiatrists (the first author of the latest edition of McGlamry’s comes to mind).

MD/DOs know what CAQs and fellowships are. Pods that refuse to adapt and live in the MD/DO world deserve their fate. The future of health care will always leave people behind. I don’t feel sorry for these pods for not planning ahead.

 

[heybrother]

Podiatry boards need to be more like MD/DO boards. Some people are salty that Lee C. Rogers beat them to the punch with CAQs; LCR probably realized that they are commonplace in the MD/DO world because he actually works with MD/DOs… Unlike random ABFAS-certified “foot and ankle surgeons” who live in middle of nowhere and would sooner commit billing fraud than call themselves podiatrists (the first author of the latest edition of McGlamry’s comes to mind).

MD/DOs know what CAQs and fellowships are. Pods that refuse to adapt and live in the MD/DO world deserve their fate. The future of health care will always leave people behind. I don’t feel sorry for these pods for not planning ahead.

I'm not sure I get the ding. Yes, Carpenter screwed up massively. But middle no where? He was the residency director of JPS in Forth Worth forever. People in Texas knew who he was. His fraud charges were a tremendous shame. He'd been an Executive Director for TPMA. He was appointed to a Podiatry Advisory Board by Abbott that he should have been serving on through 2023. I know people who said his overall contributions to podiatry in Texas and Dallas were massive. If more programs offered the level of training that JPS did we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

 

[Hybrocure]

Podiatry boards need to be more like MD/DO boards. Some people are salty that Lee C. Rogers beat them to the punch with CAQs; LCR probably realized that they are commonplace in the MD/DO world because he actually works with MD/DOs… Unlike random ABFAS-certified “foot and ankle surgeons” who live in middle of nowhere and would sooner commit billing fraud than call themselves podiatrists (the first author of the latest edition of McGlamry’s comes to mind).

MD/DOs know what CAQs and fellowships are. Pods that refuse to adapt and live in the MD/DO world deserve their fate. The future of health care will always leave people behind. I don’t feel sorry for these pods for not planning ahead.

This is actually a good point. Docs like LCR and other ABPM leadership I always see collaborating with MD and DOs both nationally and globally. I don’t tend to see that much from the ABFAS media.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

This is actually a good point. Docs like LCR and other ABPM leadership I always see collaborating with MD and DOs both nationally and globally. I don’t tend to see that much from the ABFAS media.

More like international podiatry. I've never seen ABPM do anything with ortho foot and ankle MD/DOs or the AOFAS. Not sure what you are talking about.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Podiatry boards need to be more like MD/DO boards. Some people are salty that Lee C. Rogers beat them to the punch with CAQs; LCR probably realized that they are commonplace in the MD/DO world because he actually works with MD/DOs… Unlike random ABFAS-certified “foot and ankle surgeons” who live in middle of nowhere and would sooner commit billing fraud than call themselves podiatrists (the first author of the latest edition of McGlamry’s comes to mind).

MD/DOs know what CAQs and fellowships are. Pods that refuse to adapt and live in the MD/DO world deserve their fate. The future of health care will always leave people behind. I don’t feel sorry for these pods for not planning ahead.

This forum needs more crustaceans

 

[Feli]

Podiatry boards need to be more like MD/DO boards. Some people are salty that Lee C. Rogers beat them to the punch with CAQs; LCR probably realized that they are commonplace in the MD/DO world because he actually works with MD/DOs… Unlike random ABFAS-certified “foot and ankle surgeons” who live in middle of nowhere and would sooner commit billing fraud than call themselves podiatrists (the first author of the latest edition of McGlamry’s comes to mind).

MD/DOs know what CAQs and fellowships are. Pods that refuse to adapt and live in the MD/DO world deserve their fate. The future of health care will always leave people behind. I don’t feel sorry for these pods for not planning ahead.

What in the world are you talking about?

The vast majority residency directors and other hospital-employ DPMs are ABFAS qual/cert.
LCR's fellowship director passed ABFAS, his co-fellow and co-residents passed ABFAS, La Fontaine at the new Tex school is ABFAS, Steinberg (former ACFAS prez) and many of the best limb salvage DPMs hold ABFAS. The list goes on and on...
Try to name a major hospital DPM who is not ABFAS? You will find hardly any.

I have also never met a MD with a CAQ... not once.
I've met plenty of MDs and DOs with fellowship... and that fellowship changed their specialty (not so for fellowship DPMs). They then join their appropriate specialty society (AOFAS, Amer Assoc Clinical Endocrinology, etc).

So, do we want to peddle easy answers and do more years of subpar training and make up acronyms to chase respect, or do we want to structure our curriculums so that people training for podiatry pass the (real) tests and have the real competence? I think the resignations of the ABPM board and the impeach votes speaks to their view on it. Lol.

...the answer to podiatry respect is training. The answer has been training... not fluff certs and CAQs and another year of residency meant to represent training on a CV in hopes people don't know the difference.

The answer to podiatry income is supply/demand. Nobody at any hospital, insurance, PP owner, etc is going to pay us more when 100+ other DPMs drowning in debt will jump to do the same job for less. The HR staff or CMO is just not going to suggest bigger RVU pay or bigger sign bonus when they got 368 applications in the first week for a $185k MSG or hospital DPM job in Waterville, Maine or Conway, Arkansas. Capiche?

 

[RollingstonePod]

What in the world are you talking about?

The vast majority residency directors and other hospital-employ DPMs are ABFAS qual/cert.
LCR's fellowship director passed ABFAS, his co-fellow and co-residents passed ABFAS, La Fontaine at the new Tex school is ABFAS, Steinberg (former ACFAS prez) and many of the best limb salvage DPMs hold ABFAS. The list goes on and on...
Try to name a major hospital DPM who is not ABFAS? You will find hardly any.

I have also never met a MD with a CAQ... not once.
I've met plenty of MDs and DOs with fellowship... and that fellowship changed their specialty (not so for fellowship DPMs). They then join their appropriate specialty society (AOFAS, Amer Assoc Clinical Endocrinology, etc).

So, do we want to peddle easy answers and do more years of subpar training and make up acronyms to chase respect, or do we want to structure our curriculums so that people training for podiatry pass the (real) tests and have the real competence? I think the resignations of the ABPM board and the impeach votes speaks to their view on it. Lol.

...the answer to podiatry respect is training. The answer has been training... not fluff certs and CAQs and another year of residency meant to represent training on a CV in hopes people don't know the difference.

The answer to podiatry income is supply/demand. Nobody at any hospital, insurance, PP owner, etc is going to pay us more when 100+ other DPMs drowning in debt will jump to do the same job for less. The HR staff or CMO is just not going to suggest bigger RVU pay or bigger sign bonus when they got 368 applications in the first week for a $185k MSG or hospital DPM job in Waterville, Maine or Conway, Arkansas. Capiche?

Exactly!

 

[Adam Smasher]

AHA Joins New Cardiovascular Certification Group ABCVM

The American Heart Association has now formally voted to join other societies forming a new professional certification board for CV medicine, independent of the American Board of Internal Medicine.

www.medscape.com

Some cardiologists were annoyed with ABIM so they decided to splinter off and make their own board. Does podiatry imitate medicine or does medicine imitate podiatry?

 

[air bud]

AHA Joins New Cardiovascular Certification Group ABCVM

The American Heart Association has now formally voted to join other societies forming a new professional certification board for CV medicine, independent of the American Board of Internal Medicine.

www.medscape.com

Some cardiologists were annoyed with ABIM so they decided to splinter off and make their own board. Does podiatry imitate medicine or does medicine imitate podiatry?

Podiatry is not medicine.

 

[air bud]

Podiatry is not medicine.

It was a joke people

 

[Boba Foot]

It was a joke people

That’s why DPM stands for Doctor of Pretend Medicine

 

[MoostashPod]

That’s why DPM stands for Doctor of Pretend Medicine

The Dark Path of Medicine is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural....

 

[PTPuser]

That’s why DPM stands for Doctor of Pretend Medicine

My beloved fellowship direct Dr. pronation who's no longer with us called it Doctor of Pedicure Medicine

 

[newfeet]

My beloved fellowship direct Dr. pronation who's no longer with us called it Doctor of Pedicure Medicine

I like Doctor of Practically Medicine.

 

[Podstar]

3rd year in training results came back today. Passed all on the first attempt!

 

[Twin2012]

3rd year in training results came back today. Passed all on the first attempt!

What did you use to study? Unfortunately only passed forefoot CBPS.

 

[silverturtle]

I passed only 3 of the 4 sections. Happy but disappointed I didn’t get them all done in one go. The only one I didn’t pass was RRA didactic. At least I’m set for forefoot. I used Board vitals for MCQ practice (don’t recommend) and Board Wizards for CBPS practice (highly recommend).

 

[Feli]

What did you use to study? Unfortunately only passed forefoot CBPS.

Same stuff you studied all through pod school and residency: PI manual, maybe your surgery course info, McGlam, Coughlin and Mann, other textbooks and current journal articles and conferences.

BoardWizards is good review, but it can seldom make up for years of not reading much or residency that lacked academics.