Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

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newpodgrad

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Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take
 
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Adam Smasher said:
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Dr Smasher ain't no snitch
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We are on this. At this moment, I say "we", because my term on the ABPM BOD expires in 7.5 hours.

Rest assured, there will be swift and definitive actions from ABPM.

This communication from ABFAS is wholly unprofessional, divisive, and our legal team is investigating the violations of federal and state laws.

It also misrepresents APMA's position.

Moving forward, I have total confidence in the ABPM BOD and in their resolve to defend the profession and our Diplomates from this assault.
 
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diabeticfootdr said:
... my term on the ABPM BOD expires in 7.5 hours.
...
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Amy Schumer Snl GIF by Saturday Night Live
 
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dtrack22 said:
(and client settled/won all 3)
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Isnt this what bascially happens anyway?

Most insurance force settlement with provider pleading guilty (even if provider did no wrong)?

Cheaper than lengthy court costs, etc. I dont know. Thats what I was told. If you get sued youre automatically going to be found guilty and settle out of court.
 
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DYK343 said:
Isnt this what bascially happens anyway?

Most insurance force settlement with provider pleading guilty (even if provider did no wrong)?

Cheaper than lengthy court costs, etc. I dont know. Thats what I was told. If you get sued youre automatically going to be found guilty and settle out of court.
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If you have a case. But I’ve had multiple cases where standard of care was met, and the attorneys office doesn’t even go through with the malpractice claim. They tell their client that they don’t have a case and move on to the next one.
 
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DYK343 said:
Isnt this what bascially happens anyway?

Most insurance force settlement with provider pleading guilty (even if provider did no wrong)?

Cheaper than lengthy court costs, etc. I dont know. Thats what I was told. If you get sued youre automatically going to be found guilty and settle out of court.
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I have never seen a malprac case that was not settled. I agree.
There is no admission of guilt in settle, though. (does got to NPDB as settle)
It's just a matter of how depos go. Even if one side or the other wants trial, that is hugely expensive... no reason to risk it in 99% of cases. In some cases, where the defendant side is strong or very strong, the settlement is pretty minimal ("nuisance") and the plaintiff attorney loses money compared to their time and costs of prep and depos.

The only place I saw cases go to trial was in IHS, but that's not real world... settlements are capped pretty low (govt money for the care by defendant side, and govt money is what plaintiff would get... so fairly pointless). You see some absolutely gross negligence in those environments, but the settlements are small compared to real world non-govt. It's likely VA is similar... terrible preventable outcome = 200k or 500k or something puny. It's the same pool of money for the care and to pay the providers of the care.

I correct that... I heard of one suit dropped (plaintiff deceased in one suit my bud had been served, hadn't began depo yet... dropped). 🙂
 
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I have colleagues who have been sued and have seen cases be dropped by the plaintiff at the very last second when they realize they will not get a settlement. It does happen. A lot of lawsuits are frivolous. The northeast is the worst for medical malpractice lawsuits. Particularly CT and NY. In those states the basis for the lawsuit could be flat out wrong but if they have a "Certified" podiatrist giving expert witness testimony in support of the plaintiff that is enough to bring a suit. This is where podiatry is terrible. Really bad podiatrists who give expert witness testimony just to collect a fee. Even if they are wrong. There is no retribution for this either. It is just the business of medical malpractice. These lawyers will drag it out as well. Sometimes 4-5 years. They get paid for each meeting, deposition, etc. It's all money to them. They don't care. It's disgusting.

Any podiatrist who gives expert witness testimony on a regular basis because they can't do anything else or they are not busy enough and want extra money is a giant piece manure.
 
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Is abfas cert still a big deal? It wasn’t required at my hospital. Do you guys think abpm will continue to fight for its members over the course of our careers or will abfas eventually absorb them and we be at a disadvantage if we aren’t abfas cert? I’ll hang up and listen..

Eventually this obviously ends with just one board imo but what does that mean for us who are just abpm certified
 
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CAMBoot said:
Is abfas cert still a big deal? It wasn’t required at my hospital. Do you guys think abpm will continue to fight for its members over the course of our careers or will abfas eventually absorb them and we be at a disadvantage if we aren’t abfas cert? I’ll hang up and listen..

Eventually this obviously ends with just one board imo but what does that mean for us who are just abpm certified
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ABFAS is hugely important for employed jobs. You severely limit your options with hospitals and other popular employ jobs. We all know those get a ton of applications. Can you find or "create" a BFE job that may not know or care about our boards? Sure. Maybe. Somewhere. But why limit yourself?

For PP jobs, it doesn't matter a ton for the jobs that just want a cheap associate. For the ones that pay better, they will often use ABFAS as a tiebreak and will prefer it as it shows the associate won't have trouble getting onto any hospitals they need to. Why wouldn't they pick the person who won't have an uphill battle and didn't take the easy route?

For PP owner, it doesn't really matter (assuming already on hospitals that you need)... but you might limit yourself a bit or have a tough time at one or two local hospitals if bylaws/admins changed or you are going to a new area. But overall, not a big deal to PP owner/partner unlikely to ever change job/location again.

...There will never be one board in podiatry... never has. Our training is just too varied. The grads and the residencies are hugely varied in competence and aptitude. Some residency programs pass ABFAS qual near 100% year after year while others are always near zero. Ditto for board pass rates of student boards at the pod schools: some pod schools at/near 100% annually, others much lower (even despite high student attrition).
 
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Today I learned that my credentialing team requires a board certification to get on private insurance companies NOT a qualification. A board qualification means nothing to them. Anyone know more info on this ?
 
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DogSnoot said:
Today I learned that my credentialing team requires a board certification to get on private insurance companies NOT a qualification. A board qualification means nothing to them. Anyone know more info on this ?
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Are you employed by a hospital? If so then they are pretty dumb. If this causes you to have issues with your job I would honestly do something fast and drastic. You should be able to get on insurance plans being board qualified. You might just have to take the ABPM and pass that as soon as possible
 
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Adam Smasher said:
I couldn't get on Blue Cross in my state without certification. I got ABPM midway through my first year in practice and credentialling went through with no more than the usual bureaucratic delays
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That’s crazy. So in your state even if someone is “ABFAS qualified” they can’t get on BCBS til a cert?

That’s years of post residency work for such a common insurance.
 
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Hybrocure said:
That’s crazy. So in your state even if someone is “ABFAS qualified” they can’t get on BCBS til a cert?

That’s years of post residency work for such a common insurance.
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Yes, they consider it "quality control" for their network. But it's just to limit the network and save them money.
 
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Will be curious what happens.

I really much like the leadership by all the major organizations right now. Would be a perfect time to come together as a profession. We need to let egos go here. Hopefully they will. We need to stop the infighting so we can fight the real fights and protect ALL of our interests.
 
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If they're not combining, maybe they're fighting something together.
Which begs the question, what is big and bad enough to have them combine forces?

Could also be something dumb like "Hey we're gonna adapt the MD/DO CME tracking software yay lets pat ourselves on the back"

Could be anything really.

I don't have a bone to pick with either party but the politics is hilarious with how self-righteous/self-congratulatory it is at times.
 
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Weirdy said:
If they're not combining, maybe they're fighting something together.
Which begs the question, what is big and bad enough to have them combine forces?
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student enrollment issues probably.

but one board solution is what we need and we need to fight for reimbursements, hospital politics, and at times ortho in certain states.
 
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"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."--Adam Smith
 
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BeaverBlade said:
Merger of the two boards soon?
From Instagram:

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If its not combining into one board then it does not matter. Podiatry with such a narrow scope of practice does not need 2-3 different boards. Its confusing and MD/DO don't respect us. Hospitals control privileging for podiatrists. The boards literally have no say. Zero point of being board certified in two different boards
 
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Retrograde_Nail said:
If its not combining into one board then it does not matter. Podiatry with such a narrow scope of practice does not need 2-3 different boards. Its confusing and MD/DO don't respect us. Hospitals control privileging for podiatrists. The boards literally have no say. Zero point of being board certified in two different boards
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Will the abfas dudes grandfather in the abpm ones though?
 
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BeaverBlade said:
student enrollment issues probably.

but one board solution is what we need and we need to fight for reimbursements, hospital politics, and at times ortho in certain states.
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No, probably just money.

I would guess both of the podiatry boards are simply down in membership (just like Apma, Acfas, many pod orgs are with tuition so insane and people having to set a realistic budget). The two [main] podiatry fake boards (ABMSP and ABLES) merged a year or two ago for that reason.

BeaverBlade said:
Will the abfas dudes grandfather in the abpm ones though?
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The podiaty surgery and podiatry easy boards merging would be like podiatry as a whole "merging" with ACGME and students taking Usmle...
Many simply won't pass the harder one. It's not entirely their fault; they simply don't have the education/training. Our admissions are ultra-lax.
Our vast range of capability/competence among DPMs is a perpetual problem... our residencies are "standard" in 3yr length only. (this is not to even mention our newer fellowships nonsense)

Podiatry missed the boat ~25yrs ago to have a surgical track and a non-op track for grads (probably 4yr and 2yr residencies - or maybe 3/1yr or 4/1yr). Dental model, basically. As it sits, we have waaay too many pods trying to be surgeons, not enough quality residencies for that, and most without adequate volume of surgery out in practice. The podiatry patients/refers demand is mostly for RFC, some for wound/amp, and minimal for bone/joint and sports med stuff. We made this bed by mismatching the training with the actual state of podiatry practice... largely the blame of the marketing to attract students, too many schools, not enough quality training, covering the need for F&A surgery 10x over (at least).
 
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Feli said:
I would guess both of the podiatry boards are simply down in membership (just like Apma, Acfas, many pod orgs are with tuition so insane and people having to set a realistic budget). The two [main] podiatry fake boards (ABMSP and ABLES) merged a year or two ago for that reason.
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Yeah I believe this. Anyone who has been practicing for a while has probably noticed how many local societies are barely surviving. Very few new graduates seem interested in joining, and the dues add up quickly when you’re paying APMA + state + local dues. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these organizations eventually become unsustainable.

People vote with their money. At least from what I’m seeing, more new graduates are getting ABPM and simply not pursuing ABFAS. ABPM is sufficient for many PE jobs, and those make up a large portion of the jobs available anyway.

I also remember when ABFAS loosened its case-review requirements a few years ago to make the process more accessible. At some point, the numbers may dwindle enough that the profession simply can’t support this many overlapping organizations and credentialing bodies.
 
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msion said:
People vote with their money. At least from what I’m seeing, more new graduates are getting ABPM and simply not pursuing ABFAS. ABPM is sufficient for many PE jobs, and those make up a large portion of the jobs available anyway.
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ABPM is sufficient for just about every job. It’s a legitimate board that doesn’t make its members pay more money to pass 4 separate exams and then make them pay again for 2 separate case reviews

Qualified and certified is a ridicolous concept. Either you’re certified or not is how it should be. If you don’t think someone should be certified without proving themselves via cases then you should work on fixing the residencies. To graduate residency you have to have been deemed competent. Does abfas think our residencies are inadequate? Are they trying to fix them if so? Is that why there is such a push for fellowships? Or is it about getting an associate who can take unlimited call for the price of a resident?

The boards should definitely merge. It’s what everyone wants. Ego will likely get in the way though.
 
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The breakdown of social structures is happening across this country. We will likely all come to regret it in time.

Without telling another SDN story of discontent - I think there's a breakdown in the student-attending experience where attendings don't want to acknowledge that students will be someday be their future local colleagues. When you are a students - you are dog****. When you are an attending you are suddenly supposed to feel comeraderie and community with other podiatrists, volunteer, and give money.
 
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BeaverBlade said:
ABPM is sufficient for just about every job. It’s a legitimate board that doesn’t make its members pay more money to pass 4 separate exams and then make them pay again for 2 separate case reviews

Qualified and certified is a ridicolous concept. Either you’re certified or not is how it should be. If you don’t think someone should be certified without proving themselves via cases then you should work on fixing the residencies. To graduate residency you have to have been deemed competent. Does abfas think our residencies are inadequate? Are they trying to fix them if so? Is that why there is such a push for fellowships? Or is it about getting an associate who can take unlimited call for the price of a resident?

The boards should definitely merge. It’s what everyone wants. Ego will likely get in the way though.
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BeaverBlade said:
Does abfas think our residencies are inadequate?
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Unfortunately, not all residencies are equal. There is a huge disparity among the programs.

A couple years back, one of the Kaiser residency directors said they would only consider new grads from one specific residency program to work in the system. Not even their own graduates. He said he wanted their own graduates to gain more experience before considering them. That tells you how inadequate the rest of the residency programs are in the eyes of top podiatry educators.

Fellowship is a good idea to gain more experience. However, it has also become a way for PP to get cheap labor instead of hiring an associate.

MD: I did my fellowship at XX Medical School/Medical Center in a 500-bed hospital.

DPM: I did my “fellowship” at Dr XX Foot Care office with 3 MAs and 3 exam rooms. “I also learned billing and coding”
 
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NTT123 said:
A couple years back, one of the Kaiser residency directors said they would only consider new grads from one specific residency program to work in the system. Not even their own graduates. He said he wanted their own graduates to gain more experience before considering them. That tells you how inadequate the rest of the residency programs are in the eyes of top podiatry educators.
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Gatekeeping without offering a meaningful solution, including improving his own program, tells me more about this dude than anything else.
 
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Boba Foot said:
Gatekeeping without offering a meaningful solution, including improving his own program, tells me more about this dude than anything else.
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His residents suck so bad he won’t even hire them? Unreal..
NTT123 said:
Unfortunately, not all residencies are equal. There is a huge disparity among the programs.
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Ok so close the bad ones. There are way more residencies than graduating students
nowadays anyways. It’s a simple solution but it’s never done. Instead you have the same nyc programs never filling every year and they’re never shut down

It would be interesting to know how abfas and abpm are doing member wise. I do feel like younger generation is mostly going ABPM
 
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BeaverBlade said:
I do feel like younger generation is mostly going ABPM
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Why would I go through the PITA of logging a ton of cases, paying for more exams, paying to "convert" an exam that was already paid for, etc. etc. when prior podiatrists were grandfathered in and avoided the standards that they're supposedly holding podiatrists to now? They damaged their legitimacy with that move.

Given that ABPM will get you credentialed, privileges at most places, and board certified, most people will take the path of least resistance unless they're shooting for a big hospital job that requires ABFAS.
 
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Boba Foot said:
Why would I go through the PITA of logging a ton of cases, paying for more exams, paying to "convert" an exam that was already paid for, etc. etc. when prior podiatrists were grandfathered in and avoided the standards that they're supposedly holding podiatrists to now? They damaged their legitimacy with that move.

Given that ABPM will get you credentialed, privileges at most places, and board certified, most people will take the path of least resistance unless they're shooting for a big hospital job that requires ABFAS.
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I feel the same way. It's not popular by foot and ankle surgeons™ who never use the word podiatry to feel this way though. I mean the board name doesn't even have the word podiatry in it.
 
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For any new grads reading this: if you want to reduce your chances of landing that “big hospital” job (and making 400k+) from 1% to 0.01% and ending up working in private practice for 150k then by all means don’t bother going through the additional effort of getting ABFAS cert.
 
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Toenail said:
For any new grads reading this: if you want to reduce your chances of landing that “big hospital” job (and making 400k+) from 1% to 0.01% and ending up working in private practice for 150k then by all means don’t bother going through the additional effort of getting ABFAS cert.
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It’s a lot of money to get ABFAS for a 1% chance.
 
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Stormblest said:
ABPM only here with cushy hospital job in 1 million + population city. Why would I ever go through all the hurdles of ABFAS? Admin here and probably mostly everywhere has no clue about podiatry boards.
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My first job out with a hospital they just required me to be “board certified in my specialty” so I actually asked them do they have a preference (not sure why I even opened up the can of worms) and they said abfas but didn’t care that I got certified in abpm in the end
 
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BeaverBlade said:
His residents suck so bad he won’t even hire them? Unreal..

Ok so close the bad ones. There are way more residencies than graduating students
nowadays anyways. It’s a simple solution but it’s never done. Instead you have the same nyc programs never filling every year and they’re never shut down

It would be interesting to know how abfas and abpm are doing member wise. I do feel like younger generation is mostly going ABPM
Click to expand...
Yep. We don’t need 600 “foot and ankle surgeon” a year.
 
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Feli said:
I would guess both of the podiatry boards are simply down in membership (just like Apma, Acfas, many pod orgs are with tuition so insane and people having to set a realistic budget).
Click to expand...

Not to start an argument with Feli ... but just facts. ABPM actually gains in membership annually since we have fewer retirees than new Diplomates. When I started on the BOD in 2015, we had about 2500 Diplomates. Now we have ~6700.

Board certification is not like a membership organization. While technically not "mandatory" to practice, there are many barriers to practice if you aren't board certified.
 
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Can they merge so I can stop paying for two boards dues though. It’s crazy

This is why you can’t expect people to pay for apma too. There’s just way too many organizations that want your money
 
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BeaverBlade said:
Can they merge so I can stop paying for two boards dues though. It’s crazy

This is why you can’t expect people to pay for apma too. There’s just way too many organizations that want your money
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I'm an outsider now. Not on the BOD and not representing ABPM, so these are just my opinions with the perspective of experience. But believe me, they're not going to merge. ABFAS claims it's a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 to even speak of it. ABPM is actually winning the long game. They're gaining membership, ABFAS has been losing membership (more yearly retirees than those who pass the exam). ABPM will soon surpass ABFAS in active Diplomates. ABPM certification is an accepted qualification at ~85% of hospitals and growing. ABPM has been winning "public opinion" for being fair, fiscally responsible and aggressively standing up to the BS for the younger DPMs. ABFAS is scared. So what does ABPM have to gain for its Diplomates by allowing ABFAS to publish meaningless kumbaya posts about "joint webinars"?
 
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