Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

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newpodgrad

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Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take
 
But why? Just too lazy to log? Or are people scared to log certain cases?
We all have that one case that keeps us up at night thinking about it being pulled for case review. Just wondering if there was an obvious way to circumvent this stupid system
 
I had some cases I didn’t want pulled but I never thought about being deceitful. Some did get pulled they were ones I took back to revise. I passed foot and rearfoot cases both first time though. I think as long as you show the correct thought process and attempt to fix it you’ll be ok.
 
I had some cases I didn’t want pulled but I never thought about being deceitful. Some did get pulled they were ones I took back to revise. I passed foot and rearfoot cases both first time though. I think as long as you show the correct thought process and attempt to fix it you’ll be ok.
Any and every case that I had listed as a complication got "randomly selected".
I still passed both foot and RRA despite this.
So I agree. As long as your though process is right and final outcome fixed the problem you shouldnt be too worried.
 
But why? Just too lazy to log? Or are people scared to log certain cases?
As someone who bounced from podiatry group to podiatry group and then did travel work for a year, I certainly would understand anyone who simply doesn’t want to log all of their cases for 4-5 years. If not more.

I’m sure some people are also scared, and rightfully so. Pass rates are abysmal and we all know folks who have gotten dinged on stuff that isn’t related to thought process at all and simply due to some dork not liking the final xray

I think as long as you show the correct thought process and attempt to fix it you’ll be ok.

This is definitely not always the case
 
But why? Just too lazy to log? Or are people scared to log certain cases?
Because you get busy. If you're operating a lot and have a busy clinic you have more productive uses of your time. Cases slip through the cracks. I have a friend who forgot to log some cases for this reason
 
Because you get busy. If you're operating a lot and have a busy clinic you have more productive uses of your time. Cases slip through the cracks. I have a friend who forgot to log some cases for this reason
I just started to log every case when I was signing my op report. It took a couple extra minutes but it worked for me. Way better than trying to catch up with a months worth of logs.
 
I just started to log every case when I was signing my op report. It took a couple extra minutes but it worked for me. Way better than trying to catch up with a months worth of logs.
I agree, you have to be disciplined about it. It gets hard in the real world of PT orders and DC summaries and prescription drug registries for narcotics and disability forms and...and...and...
 
I agree, you have to be disciplined about it. It gets hard in the real world of PT orders and DC summaries and prescription drug registries for narcotics and disability forms and...and...and...
I logged cases based off my billing slips. Those days sucked. Glad its over. Once a month or so I would stay late and log for at least an hour or more. Sucked.
 
Mar 20 at 5:34 AM

"The American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA) through its House of Delegates and the Council on Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) have long recognized that there are two distinct specialties in which to be board certified: medicine and surgery. The American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery (ABFAS) is committed to serving the podiatric community and protecting public health by advancing the art and science of foot and ankle surgery. We are proud that more than 10,000 podiatrists have earned ABFAS Board Certification by demonstrating specialized surgical competency and proficiency through their own surgical experience, with more joining our ranks each year.

We welcome discussion and effort to collectively ensure a strong future for our profession. This APMA Board Certification Summit, however, does not properly support such an important endeavor. The development of the summit was sudden, needed enhanced communication and collaboration to develop the objectives and process, and we are concerned that there are conflicting, unstated agendas.

In particular, we believe that a serious conversation about board certification must acknowledge the damage ABPM has caused by its recent efforts to circumvent the CPME-approved certification process and sow misinformation and distrust within the broader medical community. We understand, however, that ABPM’s podiatric surgery CAQ will not be a discussion topic. ABFAS, APMA, ACFAS, CPME, podiatric colleges, and others in the profession have asked ABPM to suspend its CAQ until the Specialty Board Recognition Committee completes its guidelines, and ABPM has refused. We continue to believe that in order for there to be a truly productive discussion about board certification, ABPM should immediately withdraw its CAQ in podiatric surgery, which only creates more confusion and division.

ABPM’s actions have divided us when we need to be united, costing all of us time and resources that could be better spent addressing more pressing challenges like student recruitment. Their recent announcement that they will file a misguided lawsuit against the Oregon Medical Board will cost the state association members, the state, and ABPM’s own members, and it will further divide the profession.

For these reasons, the ABFAS Board will not attend the summit. In the spirit of collaboration, a representative will attend and listen to the community’s concerns so that we may continue to serve our profession and improve the certification process.

Finding solutions to help strengthen and grow the profession requires all of us working together in good faith. For our part, two-and-a-half years ago ABFAS updated and simplified our certification process with fewer exams to save candidates time and money. And we have a task force to further explore ways we can improve our process to better serve candidates and patients. We are always open to innovation. But we firmly believe that neither the public, nor the profession is served by lowering standards.


A commitment to surgical excellence and the highest standards of care are shared values that unite our community. Abandoning this commitment and risking a loss of public trust in our certification processes will ultimately weaken the entire profession. We all should commit to this discussion with that purpose in mind. If there is clear consensus within the profession that a single certifying board would serve that commitment, ABFAS has the infrastructure, resources, and proven history of effectiveness that make us uniquely positioned to serve that unifying role.

Sincerely,

The ABFAS Board of Directors ..."


...this is the logical move, in my estimation. It doesn't make sense to deal with people who have been confrontational and hold dual roles with which to push self-interests on both ABPM and APMA.

The 'neither the public, nor the profession is served by lowering standards' pretty much says it all.
I'm doing ABFAS cert cases again this year. It's not fun, but it is needed. It does help to learn to review your cases.

...I'm curious to see how the upcoming ABPM leadership rotation this summer goes; I hope for less drama and less power grabs. That change happening soon was the only way I reluctantly agreed to renew my membership with them for another 12 months. 🙂
 
I would like the CPME and APMA to obtain the full list of everyone certified to do surgery by ABFAS and everybody certified to do total toenail replacement surgery by ABPM. Next I would like to see:

1) How many ABFAS certs also hold an ABPM cert

2) How many ABPM certs also hold an ABFAS cert

…and now for the spicy data…

3) Data match from ABFAS everybody that attempted and failed at certification. What percentage of ABPM certs is under this cohort.
 
Notwithstanding the micturition contest surrounding the CAQs, I've always held favorable views of the ABPM. If you're decently intelligent, you can pass the test within a few months of graduating residency, get certified, get on insurance panels, get hospital privileges, move your career along. Plus I've liked their political advocacy.

Of course I remember the certification exam (which I took in 2017, I know it's got more components now) was ridiculously easy, and somehow 10-15% of test takers fail the test each year--Lord have mercy on their souls
 
Notwithstanding the micturition contest surrounding the CAQs, I've always held favorable views of the ABPM....
Yeah, I agree. It's fine to have an alternate board or an easier board. I did ABPM cert roughly a year after residency when I realized a lot of insurances didn't understand board qual status very well. The test was basically just another national boards type basic that you didn't need to study much for. I have paid ABPM dues for years since then without questioning it (until this past year). They've really alienated themselves this year with the CAQ nonsense and constant public critiques of everything from other boards to SDN to pod school applications, though.

Diverting from what ABPOPPM/ABPM is and always has been, an alt board and a non-surgery board extend into surgery, is asinine; it's no wonder they drew the contempt of basically every major podiatry org with the published responses. There are more than enough road blocks for talented and well-trained DPMs to do surgery (politics from hospitals, orthos, each other, finding the cases or job that gets those refers, etc). We don't need people who can't pass an exam on F&A surgery or who don't do enough to sit for case review reppin' podiatry surgery as a whole. We are judged by our lowest common denominator and always have been. That has not ended well with non-cert DPMs doing surgery and sure won't end well with a CAQ surgery from the non-surgical board endorsing such. There is no need to give anti-podiatry orgs more bulletin board XRs.
 
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They had me until this.....
It has been a glorrrious waste of time, though... I can't count how many Podiatry Forward, Response to X, pod school applications bla bla, etc emails I have told them to unsubscribe me from. I can't imagine how bad has been for people who use social media or work for APMA, CPME, ABFAS, etc to deal with what's basically a one-man a vendetta agenda.

7f7fti.jpg
 
I stand with ABPM and the new CAQ

APMA, ABFAS, and everyone else can keep crying and go pound sand. I believe my words resonate with most young podiatrists when I say our boards process is broken and it's nice to see someone give podiatry the figurative middle finger to change it. I hope and pray that ABFAS rides off into the sunset and dies. The ABPM boards need to become the gold standard in the residency graduation process
 
We have one group who thinks those who don’t pass abfas should not be doing surgery. Then we have the other group who thinks if you completed residency you should be allowed to do surgery.

@Feli im curious, if god forbid you don’t pass abfas, will you still feel the same way? Will your practice have to change?
 
We have one group who thinks those who don’t pass abfas should not be doing surgery. Then we have the other group who thinks if you completed residency you should be allowed to do surgery.

@Feli im curious, if god forbid you don’t pass abfas, will you still feel the same way? Will your practice have to change?
If for some bizarre reason Feli does not pass the exam, he has a back up plan.

He will write them such a lengthy complaint and challenge, that it will rival Tolstoy’s War and Peace. At that point the ABFAS will become so fatigued that they will overturn their decision and he will pass.
 
The American Podiatric Medical Association hosted a board certification summit on March 20, 2023. Approximately 120 leaders attended the daylong meeting, which was held in Washington, DC. The American Board of Podiatric Medicine was represented in person by President Lee C. Rogers, DPM, Vice-President Melissa J. Lockwood, DPM, Past-President William E. Chagares, DPM, Board member Priya Parthasarathy, DPM, Exam Chair Gina M. Painter, DPM, and Executive Director Phill E. Ward, DPM. Multiple other ABPM Board of Directors and staff listened to a live feed of the event. Approximately 100 total individuals tuned in for the remote broadcast.



Open and frank discussion addressed whether podiatrists are having trouble getting hospital privileges and/or trouble being admitted onto insurance panels based on their board certification status or lack thereof. The group reached the conclusion that there were significant and valid concerns related to board certification and its relationship to insurance paneling and hospital privileging and credentialing which adversely affects podiatrists of all age and experience levels.


A discussion of possible solutions to these concerns then ensued. Consensus was reached that some type of single certification board in podiatry was needed to rectify the challenges incumbent to the existence of two separate certifying boards. The actual design, processes, and implementation of such a board will be further discussed amongst stakeholders at a future date, likely later this year, and will require the cooperation and collaboration of existing certifying boards to become a reality. Multiple stakeholders were also in attendance including representatives from the American Board of Lower Extremity Surgery (ABLES) and the American Board of Multiple Specialties in Podiatry (ABMSP) who advocated for an equal opportunity for all DPMs to achieve certification. The consensus at the summit was that future discussion be inclusive of all boards.



ABPM wishes to thank APMA for organizing and facilitating this important day of discussion. ABPM pledges to be involved with any future dialog regarding this issue and maintains its current commitment to the vision of a single certifying board, serving all podiatrists. ABPM is committed to moving Podiatry Forward and being an active stakeholder in all discussions in the future.



Sincerely,



ABPM Board of Directors​
 
ABPM’s actions have divided us when we need to be united, costing all of us time and resources that could be better spent addressing more pressing challenges like student recruitment. Their recent announcement that they will file a misguided lawsuit against the Oregon Medical Board will cost the state association members, the state, and ABPM’s own members, and it will further divide the profession.

We wish to communicate to you that the ABPM will file a petition against the Oregon Medical Board (OMB) in the coming days regarding the rule that Oregon podiatrists must be certified by ABFAS in order to have full access to the legal scope of practice within the State. ABPM is working with local, state and national organizations to protect the rights of ALL podiatrists.



The Details:



· The petition documents that the State is improperly delegating its authority to determine which podiatrists can perform ankle surgery to an outside entity. Not only is this, in our opinion, a violation of law, but it is also discriminatory in that an MD or DO is not held to the same standard to perform the same surgeries. A podiatrist is held to a higher standard in Oregon in which the State has no oversight.



· The existing rule limits access for Oregonians to receive podiatric ankle surgery from competent providers and no longer has a clear basis, since all podiatrists have been trained in podiatric medicine and surgery since 2003 and 3-year residencies since 2011. The petition does not challenge the requirement that podiatrists have at least 2 years of surgical training. Furthermore, the existing rule creates a restraint of trade allowing an entity outside of Oregon with conflicts of interest to determine who can provide this care.



Please consider the following:

· No single state requires MDs or DOs to be board certified in order to access their full scope of practice

· 46 of the 50 States do not require board certification of podiatrists for licensure



The ABPM stands for fairness, clarity and unity in board certification and will align with our Diplomates who experience discrimination based on their board certification and help them navigate a resolution of such.



Dedicated to moving Podiatry Forward,



The ABPM Board of Directors
 
We have one group who thinks those who don’t pass abfas should not be doing surgery. Then we have the other group who thinks if you completed residency you should be allowed to do surgery.
My weird issue though is that its even more complicated than this. There's things I agree with on both side, but the underlying motivations of both sides are just horrible cringe - I truth neither. ABFAS may have the better process and be in line with other specialities but they are still corrupt check cashers who literally can't produce an exam without blurred images while feasting on the failure of the profession. Meanwhile, while there's parts of the ABPM pitch I agree with but I also see them as cheerleaders for all the continued garbage within the profession ie. the failing schools, the pitiful residencies, that CPME 320 is good enough. etc.

Watching them thrash each other is music to my ears because what it exposes is the underlying dysfunction in the profession. Attempting to balance all of these things, I still want ABPM to keep stirring up crap because even though I don't agree with everything they say - the profession needs to change and all of the parties at the table need to be made uncomfortable. In a better world the collapsing student matriculation would be the push to get the stone moving, but this profession has the self awareness of Homer Simpson.
 
Probably just someone that failed ABFAS board cert.

You mean himself? Feli is a good 10 years out and still submitting for ABFAS cert.

Any ways, board certification needs to die across all of medicine. It’s meaningless. Either residency training is enough or it isn’t. Think about this, every single MD/DO surgeon who does bad work or gets sued for negligence is board certified. So what exactly is the process even protecting at this point? It’s all become nothing more than a money grab for the boards themselves. Anything that will make them easy or kill them off completely is welcome.
 
We have one group who thinks those who don’t pass abfas should not be doing surgery. Then we have the other group who thinks if you completed residency you should be allowed to do surgery.

@Feli im curious, if god forbid you don’t pass abfas, will you still feel the same way? Will your practice have to change?
That's a good question. ^

My practice won't change, no. I do the owner thing now. ABFAS is still the personal thing I'd like to do, though.
It will be a bit hilarious if I accomplish it ... and retire about 5 years later.
I've passed all of the tests for Foot and RRA (twice actually , since I'm from the re-qual generation) and do the cases , so it'd be shortsighted not to keep sending cases until I pass case review or BQ expired.

I think I'll be fine to pass this year or soon. It's hard to say, though. Case review is clearly as much a game of producing documentation as it is techinque (decision-making and didactic was mostly already in written and CBPS). I basically failed case review last year (first attempt) for lack of pre-op documentation from cases sent to me already worked up for surgery. This year, I understand the process better but I do have two without pre-op XRs (patients had brought CD from another doc/facility... ABFAS won't pull new cases), and that will absolutely lose some points for me. That is not an awesome feeling to be putting together cases multiple Saturdays only to find out those are missing, but it is what it is.

The case review is rough and I knew that awhile now. Mainly, in my case, I made my own bed by job-hopping and failing to save all of the notes + XR before I left some places (including my most recent). Sometimes it's more important to focus on the new job than dwell on the one you're leaving, but that doesn't work for boards. The advice to any new grad is obviously to take a high surgery volume job, stay there until board cert, and take all records and XR screenshots on surgical patients prior to departing if one does have to leave the job for some reason (HIPAA violation for sure, but can't count on most places to help or be able to help you with cases after the fact).

...In the end, I think ABFAS is a very reasonable standard to aim for. It is crazy to me to encourage a backdoor route in a profession that already has lax admissions standards and highly variable quality of residencies. I have passed all the didactic and CBPS tests for ABFAS. I have the logs. I do surgery almost every week. I have 3 cases tomorrow morning. Sure, I wasted time and chose a bad route to BC ABFAS early out of residency, and it might bite me. Even if my most recent PP job won't release XR or notes (they certainly will not), I still have other past cases and many upcoming cases in my remaining BQ years. It's not inconceivable I won't get ABFAS cert - or at least that I'd fail to get get RRA cert with some cases unavailable - but that would be my own fault. Even if the process is rough, I would never suggest any DPM avoid ABFAS and not try for it (assuming they do surgery).
 
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The American Podiatric Medical Association hosted a board certification summit on March 20, 2023. Approximately 120 leaders attended the daylong meeting, which was held in Washington, DC. The American Board of Podiatric Medicine ....
...also in attendance including representatives from the American Board of Lower Extremity Surgery (ABLES) and the American Board of Multiple Specialties in Podiatry (ABMSP) ...​
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? 🙂
 
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Abfas refusing to meet and a summit of 120 people are both terrible ideas. We don’t need 120+ opinions in a meeting, since when did that ever work out? The summit should have no more than 10 people representing the key stake holders, they can disagree and then commit to whatever plan is decided. So all of our dues paid these 120 people to a summit to decide on something we already knew?? Useless
 
Abfas refusing to meet and a summit of 120 people are both terrible ideas. We don’t need 120+ opinions in a meeting, since when did that ever work out? The summit should have no more than 10 people representing the key stake holders, they can disagree and then commit to whatever plan is decided. So all of our dues paid these 120 people to a summit to decide on something we already knew?? Useless
I agree a 120 person meeting is illogical, for sure.

However, ABFAS should absolutely refuse to meet until LCR is out as president of ABPM this summer (ABFAS has one year terms, ABPM has multi-year). Just think about all of the jabs and nonsense that have gone on this year and last year... and which party is baiting on nearly all of those interactions.

It'd be like you or I trying to sit down with a patient who just swore at our receptionist, broke something in our waiting room, and was screaming health care should be free and they should be allowed to walk-in instead of making appointments. That's just not possible... you simply call the cops and go on with your other business. 😳
 
I agree a 120 person meeting is illogical, for sure.

However, ABFAS should absolutely refuse to meet until LCR is out as president of ABPM this summer (ABFAS has one year terms, ABPM has multi-year). Just think about all of the jabs and nonsense that have gone on this year and last year... and which party is baiting on nearly all of those interactions.

It'd be like you or I trying to sit down with a patient who just swore at our receptionist, broke something in our waiting room, and was screaming health care should be free and they should be allowed to walk-in instead of making appointments. That's just not possible... you simply call the cops and go on with your other business. 😳

Rogers was being a little petty, sure, but not call-the-cops petty. It takes a real leader to be able to put that aside and have a conversation with someone without letting emotions get in the way. Because it’s not personal, it’s about the advancement of the profession which is everyone’s goal. Not even having a conversation isn’t the answer. I think it’s cowardly.

But tbh even if the board cert drama doesn’t go away for another decade, I’m glad that residency is in surplus. Because at the end of the day we all want to be more skilled as a whole, and that requires termination of bad programs. If CPME isn’t going to do it, then natural selection will. This situation is what we need.
 
You mean himself? Feli is a good 10 years out and still submitting for ABFAS cert.

Any ways, board certification needs to die across all of medicine. It’s meaningless. Either residency training is enough or it isn’t. Think about this, every single MD/DO surgeon who does bad work or gets sued for negligence is board certified. So what exactly is the process even protecting at this point? It’s all become nothing more than a money grab for the boards themselves. Anything that will make them easy or kill them off completely is welcome.
I think they meant the other guy. Yah he does not have ABFAS, but failed is not really accurate. Passed exams and withdrew because did lots of non elective surgery, even did many large non elective cases, but did not have certain elective cases to meet diversity. Would he have meet diversity back then now that ABFAS changed? Not sue, theoretically if so he would have got ABFAS. Does not mean that problems do not exist, no but it remains it is best to try for ABFAS and if not get ABPM.
 
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Rogers was being a little petty, sure, but not call-the-cops petty. It takes a real leader to be able to put that aside and have a conversation with someone without letting emotions get in the way. Because it’s not personal, it’s about the advancement of the profession which is everyone’s goal. Not even having a conversation isn’t the answer. I think it’s cowardly.

But tbh even if the board cert drama doesn’t go away for another decade, I’m glad that residency is in surplus. Because at the end of the day we all want to be more skilled as a whole, and that requires termination of bad programs. If CPME isn’t going to do it, then natural selection will. This situation is what we need.
They put a temporary freeze on killing unfilled residencies due to opening more schools. If the decreased enrollments last long enough it might.
 
...I'm curious to see how the upcoming ABPM leadership rotation this summer goes; I hope for less drama and less power grabs. That change happening soon was the only way I reluctantly agreed to renew my membership with them for another 12 months. 🙂

Just an FYI on board governance, the president does not cast votes unless to break ties. Nearly all of the ABPM Board of Directors votes, including the recent vote to file litigation vs the Oregon Medical Board, are unanimous. The ABPM BOD is speaking with one voice. It’s convenient to create villain, in this case … I take a lot of arrows … but the entire BOD is privy to all the emails coming in from Diplomates and young podiatrists asking for help AND thanking us for remaining steadfast.

My term as president ends in July, then I will remain on the BOD as immediate past president for 2 years.

The APMA Board Certification Summit uncovered hardships faced by both young and experienced podiatrists in podiatric board certification. It also highlighted the differences between podiatry and MD/DO certification.

There was a consensus of almost everyone at the summit which will be published by the APMA.

- There should be 1 unified board for 1 residency in podiatric medicine and surgery
- The timeline for implementation should be aggressive since this is harming every class of podiatrists that finish
- There should be an opportunity for inclusion for those that have been left behind by changing rules and residency models, and that is why the 2 unrecognized boards will be invited to the table

Again this was NEARLY UNANIMOUS of the 120 leaders present … how often do we get that in debates within our profession?
 
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Not proud of our professional boards for the way they are handling this with their petty public email exchanges.

Current board certification with ABFAS pushes recent residency grads to join large Podiatry groups as an associate in order to get cases for boards. When I was looking for jobs after residency every large group had the same sales line "well if you join us there's no path to partnership and it's only $100k base salary and you'll be taking lots of hospital call but you'll get your cases for boards." If one does not get their required surgical cases in 7 years then one can never get board certified by ABFAS.

The ABPM CAQ case documentation being waived makes surgical board certification too easy. A resident can come out of residency and not do any surgery for 3 years then take a test and get surgical board certification? Why am I working as an a junior associate if I can just get board certified in surgery by doing zero surgical cases?
  • Case documentation proving expertise in Podiatric Surgery*
    *Waived for those who have completed a PMSR in the last 3 years.

Oregon, and any state, should not require board certification to perform ankle procedures, leave that requirement up to the hospital/surgical centers. ABFAS should stand down regarding this issue in my opinion.
 
Just an FYI on board governance, the president does not cast votes unless to break ties. Nearly all of the ABPM Board of Directors votes, including the recent vote to file litigation vs the Oregon Medical Board, are unanimous. The ABPM BOD is speaking with one voice. It’s convenient to create villain, in this case … I take a lot of arrows … but the entire BOD is privy to all the emails coming in from Diplomates and young podiatrists asking for help AND thanking us for remaining steadfast.

My term as president ends in July, then I will remain on the BOD as immediate past president for 2 years.

The APMA Board Certification Summit uncovered hardships faced by both young and experienced podiatrists in podiatric board certification. It also highlighted the differences between podiatry and MD/DO certification.

There was a consensus of almost everyone at the summit which will be published by the APMA.

- There should be 1 unified board for 1 residency in podiatric medicine and surgery
- The timeline for implementation should be aggressive since this is harming every class of podiatrists that finish
- There should be an opportunity for inclusion for those that have been left behind by changing rules and residency models, and that is why the 2 unrecognized boards will be invited to the table

Again this was NEARLY UNANIMOUS of the 120 leaders present … how often do we get that in debates within our profession?

Lots of comparing going on between pods and MD/DO. You’re forgetting one small little detail. We let absolute imbeciles pass through pod school and then ultimately through laughably horrible residency programs that are run by these same imbeciles. Perhaps this is what led to the discrepancies in our board cert?
 
The ABPM CAQ case documentation being waived makes surgical board certification too easy. A resident can come out of residency and not do any surgery for 3 years then take a test and get surgical board certification? Why am I working as an a junior associate if I can just get board certified in surgery by doing zero surgical cases?
  • Case documentation proving expertise in Podiatric Surgery*
    *Waived for those who have completed a PMSR in the last 3 years.

This is because of the definition of the requirement of “current experience” for hospital surgical privileges.

(Hospitals are required to consider your education, training, and current experience)

CMS Conditions of Participation which is codified in federal law, defines current experience as 24 months.

The Joint Commission defines current experience as 3 years.

An eligible candidate to waive the case documentation requirement is in close proximity to their surgical training. If they finish in June and take the CAQ 3 years later (in March), it is really 32 months from their standardized training program.

Agree or disagree with our standard, we believe in being fair and not requiring more than what is necessary to demonstrate your knowledge and experience to hospitals.
 
Does not mean that problems do not exist, no but it remains it is best to try for ABFAS and if not get ABPM.
It is the opposite. It is best to get ABPM first then try for ABFAS. Can't imagine anyone waiting for 7 years trying to get ABFAS and then decide at last minute to get ABPM.
 
When I was looking for jobs after residency every large group had the same sales line "well if you join us there's no path to partnership and it's only $100k base salary and you'll be taking lots of hospital call but you'll get your cases for boards." If one does not get their required surgical cases in 7 years then one can never get board certified by ABFAS.

The ABPM CAQ case documentation being waived makes surgical board certification too easy. A resident can come out of residency and not do any surgery for 3 years then take a test and get surgical board certification? Why am I working as an a junior associate if I can just get board certified in surgery by doing zero surgical cases?
You appear to be both complaining about your current job/boards situation and then implying that others in the future should have to follow that same plight. That's the exact mentality that leads to nothing changing for the better in the future.
 
It is the opposite. It is best to get ABPM first then try for ABFAS. Can't imagine anyone waiting for 7 years trying to get ABFAS and then decide at last minute to get ABPM.




Yes you are probably correct most are probably doing it that way you describe now.

Many used to just be board qualified by ABFAS and only get ABPM by year 5 if ABFAS was going to take more than 5 years/or potentially not happen.
 
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If we have one unified board it will make it easier as far as state scope, hospital/surgery privileges/credentialing and insurance credentialing. We would also be like other specialties with a single certification from a single board.

If we do have one unified board with one certification we will be laughed at by main stream medicine if it is not a surgical board. All surgical boards in every specialty require cases after residency and active surgical privileges.

Non surgical podiatrists will be out of luck unless there is a lengthy and drawn out grandfathering process such as get your non surgical board by a certain date and you can keep if forever. Everyone complains about the grandfathering we have done in the past. Mark my words if we unify there will be grandfathering.

Our education, residencies and more doing fellowships suggest we should have a single surgical board. Will this leave too many behind with the reality of our job market and how many practice after residency initially and some long term? Are we finally ready to kill chiropody? I am fine either way....this is for the profession to decide.
 
This is because of the definition of the requirement of “current experience” for hospital surgical privileges.

(Hospitals are required to consider your education, training, and current experience)

CMS Conditions of Participation which is codified in federal law, defines current experience as 24 months.

The Joint Commission defines current experience as 3 years.

An eligible candidate to waive the case documentation requirement is in close proximity to their surgical training. If they finish in June and take the CAQ 3 years later (in March), it is really 32 months from their standardized training program.

Agree or disagree with our standard, we believe in being fair and not requiring more than what is necessary to demonstrate your knowledge and experience to hospitals.
I would argue assisting surgical procedures in residency is not the same experience as performing surgeries as an attending.

As someone 3 years out of residency I can personally say working up a patient, performing surgery and managing the patient post-op as an attending is a much different experience than sitting behind an attending for a surgical procedure. I had a good residency too, I followed patients pre-op to post-op in the office and performed many of the procedures skin to skin. But not every residency will give every resident that opportunity, I have seen residents pushed through, given just enough cases to graduate and the cases they did do they had their hand held through the entire procedure.

I think the minimum standards should be raised on the CAQ if you want it to be competitive. At least some sort of minimum case volume logged as the primary surgeon of record.
 
Do you think NP/PA organizations are tearing each other apart over what their members should be allowed to do? NOPE. They're going full steam ahead, pushing the envelope, basically claiming they're on-par with actual doctors. Meanwhile in Podiatry land: if you can't pass a BS case review within 7 years you must be destined to cut toenails for the rest of your life. This field is such a joke
 
Not proud of our professional boards for the way they are handling this with their petty public email exchanges.

Current board certification with ABFAS pushes recent residency grads to join large Podiatry groups as an associate in order to get cases for boards. When I was looking for jobs after residency every large group had the same sales line "well if you join us there's no path to partnership and it's only $100k base salary and you'll be taking lots of hospital call but you'll get your cases for boards." If one does not get their required surgical cases in 7 years then one can never get board certified by ABFAS.

The ABPM CAQ case documentation being waived makes surgical board certification too easy. A resident can come out of residency and not do any surgery for 3 years then take a test and get surgical board certification? Why am I working as an a junior associate if I can just get board certified in surgery by doing zero surgical cases?
  • Case documentation proving expertise in Podiatric Surgery*
    *Waived for those who have completed a PMSR in the last 3 years.

Oregon, and any state, should not require board certification to perform ankle procedures, leave that requirement up to the hospital/surgical centers. ABFAS should stand down regarding this issue in my opinion.
Yuppers. Thats the snare... “join us as a slave labor associate to get your ABFAS numbers.”

Meanwhile, in MD/DO world where they dont know the difference between ABPM/ABFAS (nor give a flip), you are treated with respect regardless of which board you hold. We in podiatry are always trying to add more letters after our name... every letter combination except “MD” or “DO”.

I am proudly boarded by ABPM. Have not had issues getting interviews/landing jobs with it. I don’t think having ABFAS is crucial in the non-DPM world.
 
If we do have one unified board with one certification we will be laughed at by main stream medicine if it is not a surgical board. All surgical boards in every specialty require cases after residency and active surgical privileges.

One board doesn’t mean 1 test, no cases, or only 1 tier. There was no consensus on that.

No details were decided or recommended at the summit. This will take committees of stakeholders and ultimately CPME with public input to create the detailed criteria.

Personally, I support:

1 residency in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery = 1 tier of initial board certification for all, that tests the standard of the residency program. (Could be test or tests + cases) But you’re board certified in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery, which is the name of your residency program.

Then if there is additional voluntary subspecialty training:

Additional certifications available for that subspecialty.

And just because you’re board certified doesn’t mean you automatically get privileges to do everything. Privileges must be based on education, training, and experience. If a DPM has no experience doing TARs, it doesn’t matter what your BC is, you don’t get that privilege.

No subspecialty certification should be REQUIRED for any privileges in podiatric medicine and surgery. And even CMS insists “that if board certification is to be a required element of privileging, it must be certification in one’s primary specialty.”

Here’s what I stand for:

ANY podiatrist should be able to get privileges to perform ANY procedure in which they can demonstrate their competence by education, training, and current experience. Board certification can be a required element, BUT board certification should not be elusive to create an elitist society of podiatrists who can engage in anti-competition.

Additionally, board certification should not require 7 years (or 10 years as I’ve heard some on this forum). 2-5 years is a reasonable timeframe.
 
One board doesn’t mean 1 test, no cases, or only 1 tier. There was no consensus on that.

No details were decided or recommended at the summit. This will take committees of stakeholders and ultimately CPME with public input to create the detailed criteria.

Personally, I support:

1 residency in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery = 1 tier of initial board certification for all, that tests the standard of the residency program. (Could be test or tests + cases) But you’re board certified in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery, which is the name of your residency program.

Then if there is additional voluntary subspecialty training:

Additional certifications available for that subspecialty.

And just because you’re board certified doesn’t mean you automatically get privileges to do everything. Privileges must be based on education, training, and experience. If a DPM has no experience doing TARs, it doesn’t matter what your BC is, you don’t get that privilege.

No subspecialty certification should be REQUIRED for any privileges in podiatric medicine and surgery. And even CMS insists “that if board certification is to be a required element of privileging, it must be certification in one’s primary specialty.”

Here’s what I stand for:

ANY podiatrist should be able to get privileges to perform ANY procedure in which they can demonstrate their competence by education, training, and current experience. Board certification can be a required element, BUT board certification should not be elusive to create an elitist society of podiatrists who can engage in anti-competition.

Additionally, board certification should not require 7 years (or 10 years as I’ve heard some on this forum). 2-5 years is a reasonable timeframe.
Sounds good enough in theory.

But are we theoretically killing chiropody or not?

What if someone has an academic/government/private practice job and they are doing non operative diabetic foot care....will they have a path to being board certified?
 
Sounds good enough in theory.

But are we theoretically killing chiropody or not?

What if someone has an academic/government/private practice job and they are doing non operative diabetic foot care....will they have a path to being board certified?

Yes … every podiatrist in all settings and all focused practices should have the opportunity for board certification.

This is most important for the current and future residency graduates. They should be tested at the standard of what they are trained for the full scope of their training.
 
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