Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

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Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

 

[icebreaker32]

I <3 big CAQs

Serious question

What other surgical specialities offer CAQs?

I think some dental specialties do, but they are very niche in nature not just basic ones to get mainstream jobs.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Serious question

What other surgical specialities offer CAQs?

I think some dental specialties do, but they are very niche in nature not just basic ones to get mainstream jobs.

NCCPA (the PA board)
ABFM (Family Medicine)
ABOMS (Oral Maxillofacial Surgery)
American Board of Optometry
Board of Pharmacy Specialties
And the American Board of Laser Surgery (one in pointing, one in shooting)

There's others which seem really really niche (American Board of Electrodiagnostic Medicine CAQ in neuromuscular ultrasound)

 

[Feli]

NCCPA (the PA board)
ABFM (Family Medicine)
ABOMS (Oral Maxillofacial Surgery)
American Board of Optometry
Board of Pharmacy Specialties
And the American Board of Laser Surgery (one in pointing, one in shooting)

There's others which seem really really niche (American Board of Electrodiagnostic Medicine CAQ in neuromuscular ultrasound)

Serious question

What other surgical specialities offer CAQs?...

You guys are smart ppl.
You're waaaay overthinking this CAQ thing, though...

Look at who came up with and was in charge of the CAQ program for ABPM.
The CAQ surgery and the recent conflict was the (his?) end game all along.
The wound and sports podiatry CAQs were just a smokescreen to have the surgery one be more natural... less alarming (epic fail).
It was a scheme hatched at least a half dozen years ago.
Ambition? Power Grab? Old grudge? Total disaster for a board org otherwise making good moves for the last 10 or 20 years?

Regardless, it's not exactly total toenail surgery to do the math and discern the reasoning for all the planning and execution of this ridiculousness. 🙂

 

[deleted285117]

Nah, its just that someone finally had enough w/ ABFAS’ BS and doing something about it. Podiatry Forward, broski 😎

 

[Adam Smasher]

PAs Size Up the Certificate of Added Qualifications Credential

Medscape polled physician assistant readers about their perceptions of the certificate of added qualifications (CAQ) credential. Do they have one? Are they planning to get one, or do they question whether the time and expense are justified? Here's what your colleagues are saying.

www.medscape.com

"72% of PAs chose 'doubts about its value to your career' as the most impactful reason not to seek a CAQ."

 

[icebreaker32]

NCCPA (the PA board)
ABFM (Family Medicine)
ABOMS (Oral Maxillofacial Surgery)
American Board of Optometry
Board of Pharmacy Specialties
And the American Board of Laser Surgery (one in pointing, one in shooting)

There's others which seem really really niche (American Board of Electrodiagnostic Medicine CAQ in neuromuscular ultrasound)

Yah the fields are primary care, don't offer residencies for most or the CAQs are VERY niche.

If residencies were optional I think CAQs would make a lot of sense for podiatry. If we want to have CAQs like ABOMS does in pediatrics or oncology, then sure it makes sense, but is VERY niche.

To me it makes no sense for a CAQ in things we should all be getting from our 3 years residencies like a CAQ in foot surgery. It borders on embarrassing to me actually.

 

[Sweatshirt]

I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen a more idiotic comment than the one below, from PM News. The boards can’t reach a common ground, so let’s create a NEW board.

At first I thought it was an April Fools joke.

​

RE: APMA Board Certification Summit From: Bret Ribotsky, DPM It has been a month since the summit regarding the board certification in our profession hosted by APMA took place in DC. Zero has been communicated back to the participants other than a summary and the audio recording. Personally, I spent a few thousand dollars to attend this event, as I’m sure others did. I am retired, due to my disability, but still a passionate cheerleader for our profession. I was optimistic and hopeful that something would have begun. One of the consensus items was a swift and speedy progress; not seeing this, it’s time to begin. So today, I am proposing a step forward. As the two boards have not reported any progress, I’m offering the creation of a new board, the American Board of Podiatry (ABP). This board will offer certification in basic podiatry that should be attainable after three years of residency training. Additional certificates of added qualification in surgery, advanced surgery, wound care, and trauma, etc. will also be created. Specific names and qualifications for these CAQs to be determined. All those with certifications by ABPM and ABFAS will be grandfathered to the category appropriate. The other certifying boards (ABLES, ABMSP) would also have their members included in some format, but I’m not knowledgeable of their processes in enough detail to lay them out at this time. Who will run this board? - I’d love it to be an amalgamation of the current approved boards, but if they are unwilling to participate, then I’d leave this open for suggestions. Who’s interested? Bret Ribotsky, DPM, Ft. Lauderdale, FL

I stopped reading after he said "I spent a few thousand dollars to attend this summit" and "I am retired" right after each other. He's irrelevant and nothing in the podiatry world will affect him

 

[DMEpod]

We've always far outnumbered F&A ortho...
You could have told him DPM residency grads nearly outnumber all ortho grads (total, all specialties)... and probably will soon as the new pod schools increase class sizes.

Uro, optho, derm, plastics etc all do tight control of their residencies to keep demand high, training quality high, applications high quality incomes up. Podiatry? Not at all.

This is spot one. Residency quality in our profession spans such a big spectrum. It would be nice to hold some of the bottom of the barrel programs accountable. 3 years chipping away at a VA and then calling yourself a surgeon is far too popular

 

[Adam Smasher]

He's irrelevant and nothing in the podiatry world will affect him

Bret Ribotsky used to produce a fairly good podcast called "Meet the Masters." Depending on the guest, they were a good listen, even if it's mostly old guard DPMs. He even interviewed @Feli 's bête noire 5x. So no he's not irrelevant.

 

[Pronation]

This is spot one. Residency quality in our profession spans such a big spectrum. It would be nice to hold some of the bottom of the barrel programs accountable. 3 years chipping away at a VA and then calling yourself a surgeon is far too popular

Are you discriminating against highly trained total toenail replacement surgeons?

 

[JewOnThis]

Someone needs to call Dr Venson.

 

[Sweatshirt]

Bret Ribotsky used to produce a fairly good podcast called "Meet the Masters." Depending on the guest, they were a good listen, even if it's mostly old guard DPMs. He even interviewed @Feli 's bête noire 5x. So no he's not irrelevant.

Okay, but still he's irrelevant to the conversation. Since he's retired nothing he advocates for would ever affect him

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Suppose I make a thread about getting ABFAS certification. Would the currently ABFAS-certified members be willing to share their experiences about the process, the exams, case logs, and ultimately receiving the certification?

 

[deleted1138023]

Suppose I make a thread about getting ABFAS certification. Would the currently ABFAS-certified members be willing to share their experiences about the process, the exams, case logs, and ultimately receiving the certification?

Why not make a thread about ABPM certification?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Why not make a thread about ABPM certification?

I think most active users here are ABPM certified. I am not sure how many members we have that are ABFAS-certified, hence the reason for my previous post. I am happy to make threads for both. That way, anyone interested in one or the other can get the help they need and ask relevant questions.

 

[Pronation]

Why not make a thread about ABPM certification?

Not necessary since nearly everybody passes the ABPM cert.

 

[air bud]

What are the chances our esteemed colleagues can stay on topic....?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

What are the chances our esteemed colleagues can stay on topic....?

We will moderate those certification threads closely. This thread will stay open for any other conversations.

 

[619]

Suppose I make a thread about getting ABFAS certification. Would the currently ABFAS-certified members be willing to share their experiences about the process, the exams, case logs, and ultimately receiving the certification?

It will end up being a survivorship bias making ABFAS look like an easy pie. Statistics shows that majority do not pass.


"as long as history will be written by hunters, lions shall never be glorified"

Folks on SDN are the lions telling their stories. We know who the hunters are.

 

[DYK343]

Suppose I make a thread about getting ABFAS certification. Would the currently ABFAS-certified members be willing to share their experiences about the process, the exams, case logs, and ultimately receiving the certification?

Sure what would you like to know?

Took the online exam. Cant study for it. Its not something thats possible to cram for. It tests associations of clinical knowledge and not factual knowledge like "what is the max dose lidocaine". If I remember correctly it more tests clinical scenarios. Its somewhat challenging because there is often more than 1 right answer but one answer is the "best" answer.

Case logs were a pain in the butt to upload. took forever. But not much to say. Just need to upload everything they request.

CBPS is dumb and fairly challenging. I used their official online practice and ran through every possible scenario in my mind. The real scenario might be a cavus workup on their practice exam but I would tell myself "OK lets do a scenario for tumor workup" so I knew where everything was and how to select every test/procedure/option for a tumor workup and where it was located before going into the real exam. Thats hard to explain but I hope it makes sense.

Why not make a thread about ABPM certification?

Becasue if you just pay them the money you get the cert. Its not too challenging.

 

[619]

Becasue if you just pay them the money you get the cert. Its not too challenging.

Just like every other board cert. You pay to play but you pay ABFAS and still do not get the cert. That's why folks feel cheated.

 

[heybrother]

-I think there's value in a thread discussing processes to optimize how you approach the case review.

-I was curious and sat down to look up my classmates the other day - I was shocked by how few of them are board certified by ABFAS. We are 4 years out. I would have figured more people would have crossed the finish line by now. A lot of people with famous residencies and big deal fellowships. Foot was much more common than rearfoot but still shockingly rare. Found myself wondering do a lot of people take the full 7 years etc. Obviously all very anecdotal. If hospitals are enforcing a 5 year period its getting down to the limit for people.

-But then I thought of my own situation. I'm 4 years out. The last time I checked awhile ago I had at least 60 1st ray fusions. Nothing was stopping me from sitting for Part 2 CBPS through the years - I just didn't. I posted the other day about how surprised (read: furious) I was not to pass part 2 CBPS on my first try. Its funny - Pronation said above everyone passes ABPM. Someone already got onto to me about "helping the profession" - but ABPM is a test you walk out of thinking you failed (its bad) and then you pass and ABFAS is a test covering what you do for a living daily and then you fail. I'm now forever in the "failures" column ie. "he didn't pass", but I really wonder how many people fail ABFAS and just say "f&* it, this is bullshirt, I'm done". If you are dead set on going for ABFAS and you have the money - start taking Part 2 as soon as you can. Maybe you pass right away. Maybe you sit there taking that bitch over and over again. That's probably the path to getting certified quickly, maybe.

-Best thing you can do - live somewhere that it doesn't matter. Course, if we get down to 150 graduates a year - no one is going to care what board certification you have. That's the future I want to live in.

-The funny thing about people sharing cases on these forums is - there really are people with a skill set that no one else has. Like - if I were to get rearfoot certified it would be entirely on elective, calcaneal osteotomies, some fusions, etc. Meanwhile dyk, feli, cutswithfury have all posted pictures of calcaneal fractures, pilon reconstructions and severe fragmented talus fractures. Their board certification doesn't matter - its what they can do that matters. And yet all 3 are total ABFAS lovers. Believe in yourselves guys. ABFAS didn't make you great. And none of you did fellowships anyway so you are really just dinosaurs in a few years.

 

[DYK343]

Meanwhile dyk, feli, cutswithfury have all posted pictures of calcaneal fractures, pilon reconstructions and severe fragmented talus fractures. Their board certification doesn't matter - its what they can do that matters. And yet all 3 are total ABFAS lovers. Believe in yourselves guys. ABFAS didn't make you great. And none of you did fellowships anyway so you are really just dinosaurs in a few years.

Honestly that hospital I was at from the time posting those cases.... ABFAS required lol

 

[icebreaker32]

 

[deleted285117]

View attachment 370091

 

[Pronation]

The best of what this profession can be!

While making less than an NP or PA.

 

[AttackNME]

These silly statements aren’t going to accomplish anything. I hope they’re reading this. Abfas why don’t you tell us what you’re changing to be better? Or do you think everything you’re doing is actually the best it can be?

 

[deleted1093615]

View attachment 370091

“A decision made exclusively and independently by, and on behalf of, the Podiatric medical students who comprise the organization“.
this is complete bull$hit.
why were no student members of APMSA given the opportunity to vote on this action before they announced it? As far as I heard the students woke up to an email explaining the decision that was made “by the students” that they had absolutely no say in. Not even a vote or anything.

 

[Jummy Biffett]

Such a joke. Like everything else in this dogsh*t profession. Pre-pods, if you are reading this (and I'm sure ABFAS is quaking in their boots at the thought of that) literally do anything else with your life. This is a rapidly deteriorating career path to take.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

View attachment 370091

If any of the APMA/ABFAS Board of Directors is reading this, making an SDN account is easy. All you need is an email. Join the discussion and shed some light on this profession's issues throughout these threads.

 

[heybrother]

“A decision made exclusively and independently by, and on behalf of, the Podiatric medical students who comprise the organization“.
this is complete bull$hit.
why were no student members of APMSA given the opportunity to vote on this action before they announced it? As far as I heard the students woke up to an email explaining the decision that was made “by the students” that they had absolutely no say in. Not even a vote or anything.

Can you offer more on this? Did APMSA really not vote at all.

 

[florida.podiatry]

The best of what this profession can be!

While making less than an NP or PA.

YOU READ IT HERE FIRST — fresh off the PM News press! For 4 years of education, 6 figures of debt to acquire said education … and a 3 year residency YOU TOO can become apart of the #13th highest paying profession and make a median salary of 145k. This salary enviable by associates degree trained travel nurses, respiratory techs and radiology techs alike…. but wait there’s more!!!!! Oh… nvm it’s just heartache and distaste for the field which happens to come free with every PMSR/ RRA residency completion certificate granted!

 

[Adam Smasher]

Lol dude in the pic holding the film sideways

 

[deleted285117]

Lol dude in the pic holding the film sideways

Probably FACFAS with 13 ABFAS training courses under his belt.

 

[deleted1093615]

Can you offer more on this? Did APMSA really not vote at all.

I can’t speak for every student on Apmsa but the students I know that are on it didn’t vote they just received an email stating what had been done.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

YOU READ IT HERE FIRST — fresh off the PM News press! For 4 years of education, 6 figures of debt to acquire said education … and a 3 year residency YOU TOO can become apart of the #13th highest paying profession and make a median salary of 145k. This salary enviable by associates degree trained travel nurses, respiratory techs and radiology techs alike…. but wait there’s more!!!!! Oh… nvm it’s just heartache and distaste for the field which happens to come free with every PMSR/ RRA residency completion certificate granted! View attachment 370107

WOW SALARY OF 100k (after 7 years of post graduate education and losing your entire 20s)!!!! WHERE DO I SIGN UP?!?!?!

Home

Step Into Podiatry. There is a lot of opportunity in podiatry – both in practice types and settings!

www.stepintopodiatry.com

Is Podiatry the Right Career for You?

Take this survey powered by surveymonkey.com. Create your own surveys for free.

www.surveymonkey.com

 

[Sweatshirt]

View attachment 370091

I know you are reading this ABFAS board of directors. Follow your own advice and lead by example. The best thing you can do for the profession is to terminate your entire organization. Thank you

 

[icebreaker32]

YOU READ IT HERE FIRST — fresh off the PM News press! For 4 years of education, 6 figures of debt to acquire said education … and a 3 year residency YOU TOO can become apart of the #13th highest paying profession and make a median salary of 145k. This salary enviable by associates degree trained travel nurses, respiratory techs and radiology techs alike…. but wait there’s more!!!!! Oh… nvm it’s just heartache and distaste for the field which happens to come free with every PMSR/ RRA residency completion certificate granted! View attachment 370107

Don't forget also ranked number 27 out of 29 for healthcare. It could be worse, we could be rehab counselors. They were below us.

 

[DMEpod]

🤣🤣 The PM News #13 is great. Oh you can start making 1/3 of your student loan with compounding interest after working your butt off for 4yrs undergrad, 4yrs grad, and 3-4 yrs post grad training. That should probably get slapped as a sticky on the pre pod forum

 

[Pronation]

Lol dude in the pic holding the film sideways

Maybe was grandfathered into board certification?

 

[Boba Foot]

Abfas why don’t you tell us what you’re changing to be better?

They’ve changed nothing. Been told by former underclass co-residents that the ITE was once again near impossible to pass last fall and most did abysmal on it. But ABFAS still got paid for it. And they’ll get paid again when residents retake it.

Starting to think ABFAS is taking a play out of the Fox News playbook— change nothing, cause drama and division to distract everyone from the real issues and then can continue to change nothing.

 

[Poddy2Hotty]

 

[Weirdy]

View attachment 370133

Just a reminder to try to keep memes in the meme thread.

 

[deleted285117]

Regardless of where you stand on the recent Dr. Rogers / ABPM stuff, one thing we can all agree on: our profession’s politics are self-serving and stupid, fueled by podiatry’s always-prevalent identity crisis and self-esteem issues.

Doubt we will ever see a unified board since all podiatry word-salad organizations have too much to lose if they ever “merge”... money, power, influence, status, etc.

Like Tony Horton (P90X 😎) would say: “Do your best and forget the rest.” Ignore the political noise, be a great physician to your patients and live a fulfilling professional career.

 

[newfeet]

Regardless of where you stand on the recent Dr. Rogers / ABPM stuff, one thing we can all agree on: our profession’s politics are self-serving and stupid, fueled by podiatry’s always-prevalent identity crisis and self-esteem issues.

Doubt we will ever see a unified board since all podiatry word-salad organizations have too much to lose if they ever “merge”... money, power, influence, status, etc.

Like Tony Horton (P90X 😎) would say: “Do your best and forget the rest.” Ignore the political noise, be a great physician to your patients and live a fulfilling professional career.

You can have a unified board and still have all the “colleges and societies” so everyone can get titles to look cool.

 

[RollingstonePod]

🤣🤣 The PM News #13 is great. Oh you can start making 1/3 of your student loan with compounding interest after working your butt off for 4yrs undergrad, 4yrs grad, and 3-4 yrs post grad training. That should probably get slapped as a sticky on the pre pod forum

If you read further into the report the top earners (Anesthesia, all surgeons, orthodontists, physicians) were all grouped as making a mean of $208,000. The report is crap and does not represent what podiatrists in the trenches actually make.

 

[icebreaker32]

If you read further into the report the top earners (Anesthesia, all surgeons, orthodontists, physicians) were all grouped as making a mean of $208,000. The report is crap and does not represent what podiatrists in the trenches actually make.

Everyone knows CRNAs can easily make more than 208,000. No salary survey is perfect and this one is way too low for surgeons and other specialties.

The average podiatry salary is debatable (120,000-220,000 is a wide range) as we are not a typical organizational commodity and those doing very well in private practice list as low as possible for tax reasons.

Associate salaries and salaries in early years are typically a joke. 80-120K being very common with minimal benefits.

Average salaries look good enough if you trust one of the. surveys on the higher end (220,000 and not 120,000), but the outliers make it seem higher than it is. While the average looks good enough I suppose (again on higher end surveys), the mean (which is lower than listed averages) looks barely good enough when you take into consideration the length of training and lack of benefits such as great health insurance pension, 401K match, generous vacation and loan forgiveness options. This brings the true typical salary down to barely good enough or maybe not good enough. Many are below the mean a good bit in podiatry unlike other specialties where there are outliers, but you are more of an organizational commodity with a know somewhat tight compensation range.

Yah if you are a top 25 percent earner and get there within a couple years, then podiatry is a good/really good ROI if you are OK with a limited ability to move elsewhere or change how you practice (administrative, academic etc).

Not everyone can/will win in podiatry.

Top 25 percent you will have a nice income.

Middle 50 percent depends on debt, cost of living, spouses income/spending habits and your desired lifestyle etc.

Bottom 25 percent....you should have picked another profession.

 

[Feli]

....

-The funny thing about people sharing cases on these forums is - there really are people with a skill set that no one else has. Like - if I were to get rearfoot certified it would be entirely on elective, calcaneal osteotomies, some fusions, etc. Meanwhile dyk, feli, cutswithfury have all posted pictures of calcaneal fractures, pilon reconstructions and severe fragmented talus fractures. Their board certification doesn't matter - its what they can do that matters. And yet all 3 are total ABFAS lovers. Believe in yourselves guys. ABFAS didn't make you great. And none of you did fellowships anyway so you are really just dinosaurs in a few years.

I think I saw this but didn't reply a week ago...

You are right: it's the cases and skills and the outcomes that matter.
It's always better to keep all doors open to the best CME, all hospitals possible, all JOBS possible via appropriate board cert, though.

I suppose I personally have every reason to not like ABFAS if my cases/documentation for BC are rejected again this coming month; it will be very hard for me to chase down cases again since most are locked at past jobs. There is a chance I'll have passed all of the ABFAS exams and CBPS (twice) for nothing. I may not give up on it, but I can't send in ninjas to get cases at old jobs either.

At this point, BC honestly doesn't affect me since a ton since I'm an owner now and have the privileges I need and do the cases and get good outcomes. I won't ever be applying for jobs again. New hospital privileges? Maybe, fairly unlikely... never know. I am fine without [ABFAS] BC or RRA, especially since very few DPMs in my area have even Foot ABFAS cert either, and I get great generally outcomes, no discipline, etc. Still, of course I still want to be cert for the most appropriate board for what I do, which is obviously ABFAS, with RRA. Maybe it's a personal thing at this point? Dunno... but I'll be upset if I'm paying non-member dues for ACFAS events or pubs in a few years. That'd be lame.

I think ABFAS is under a ton of heat from LCR (under cloak of ABPM) throwing shade at them when he took power at ABPM. We all know how that turned out... ABPM BOD walked out on him and that's a mess that'll fester awhile, but it still brought criticism and frustration to ABFAS and their exams/cases/process. Like I said in another thread, just because A is imperfect, that doesn't mean B is amazing. Another legit reality is that A can be imperfect and B can be batspit kwayzee.

I don't think the ABFAS exams are easy. I failed the CBPS once when I'd been out a few years and didn't study. I studied and passed on retry. The case review process for BC is a bit rough, esp since they're not f2f, but plenty of my peers have passed them. It would just be nice if they'd narrow the window of cases so that people don't have to hang onto crummy jobs or create basically violations to take all of the info with them when they leave a job. I think the ABFAS pulled cases from 3 different jobs (2017-present) for me this year. The 2017 was missing a pre-op, another I could barely find at all, some pts changed over to other docs when I'd left, etc... it's a headache. We shall see.

 

[msion]

Like I said in another thread, just because A is imperfect, that doesn't mean B is amazing. Another legit reality is that A can be imperfect and B can be batspit kwayzee.

Agreed. Both boards are messed up but like what I said in other threads, ABPM can be helpful when a DPM is facing credentialing issues or discriminated by hospital bylaws. They will legitimately fight for you. ABFAS on the other hand will ask you to bow to the admin/ortho or just ignore your emails.

ABFAS doesn't really need to change for the better, they can just be the old ABPS and bring back the oral exams. I'd rather take a day or two of my life, go through cases with them and explain the reasoning/surgical principles behind every case. After all that's what mattered for a surgeon. Otherwise at this time with their subjective review process, I am fighting against my own system just to do my job.

 

[FootGuy]

So why did 6 members of the ABPM board just resign? It has been presented on this site that their entire board was behind the ABPM initiatives, yet an exodus like this would tend to indicate a major rift or problem from within. It would seem like for as much "we are for everyone" chatter that has been occurring, there would be some statement aside from "per the bylaws....." For the record, I have absolutely no inside knowledge of any kind, but I am surprised no one is talking about it. (Unless I missed it somewhere)