ABFAS new appeals process, another scam?

[uberconfuzzled]

Hi guys,
I'm in my first attempt at part 2 case review right now (already passed the CBPS part-woohoo!).
I just got a mass email from ABFAS where they introduced their new appeals policy for case review candidates. At first, I thought this was an amazing step forward to try and increase the abysmal pass rate since I've read and heard so many horror stories about this process . But as I kept on reading, I started feeling a little sick to my stomach at how ridiculous it was, especially this part:

Did I read that right? $4K or $8K to appeal a failed case review? That is 8x more than the cost of the original exam itself!
Thoughts?

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[GreenHousePub]

Growing up every Halloween we had an electric witch figurine that we would set out. When you pressed a button on it the witch would begin rocking back and forth and start cackling. The cackling and evil laughter would get progressively louder until it was ear-splitting.

I wish I had a video of it so I could put it in response to the above post.

 

[josebiwasabi]

Such a ridiculous money grab. Shameful.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Hi guys,
I'm in my first attempt at part 2 case review right now (already passed the CBPS part-woohoo!).
I just got a mass email from ABFAS where they introduced their new appeals policy for case review candidates. At first, I thought this was an amazing step forward to try and increase the abysmal pass rate since I've read and heard so many horror stories about this process . But as I kept on reading, I started feeling a little sick to my stomach at how ridiculous it was, especially this part:
View attachment 302666
Did I read that right? $4K or $8K to appeal a failed case review? That is 8x more than the cost of the original exam itself!
Thoughts?

I got the same email. This is not fake news. I’ve officially lost whatever little respect I still had for this profession.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[heybrother]

I've been wanting to write a "How would you fix ABFAS" post over the last few weeks.

I think there's a lot of people on here who know way more about them than I do, but they have to be affected by what is going on right now...?

So I'm part 1 qualified for F/RRA etc. I have zero intention of taking any further testing with them until I start having a substantial caseload progression that would make me think I'm going to get the cases for case review. I'd have to discuss it with my boss again, but I think my boss said they'd pay for AFBFAS related stuff. However, no way in hell is he paying for anything right now and probably no one's employer is going to pay for stuff like this in the current environment. Is anyone out there really thinking - well, I'll just take the written stuff just to get it over with? If no one is really operating - no one is advancing saying "hey I got my cases, I need to do this next". I have no idea how long this whole thing is going to go on for - if PPE is really as short as they say it is I'm having a hard time seeing my elective load come back any time. Others mileage may vary.

How dependent are these guys on a gradual stream of money coming in from people advancing/progressing etc? People just taking the part 2 written just because. The insane unbelievable amounts above - is that some sort of death scream of an organization saying - s&**t - we need to squeeze some money out of people because we are dying or just a - we'll offer you this, but don't do it, also middlefinger to our profession.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Abfas needs to be abolished

 

[deleted1003403]

wtf

 

[uberconfuzzled]

It’s so glaringly sketchy and definitely feels like a pay off and a way to buy your way into certification if this is your last attempt to pass. How is this even legal?

 

[CutsWithFury]

It’s so glaringly sketchy and definitely feels like a pay off and a way to buy your way into certification if this is your last attempt to pass. How is this even legal?

Rumor is they pass you on the third attempt after they gotten three years worth of fees for there examinations. Money grab. Nothing more.


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[Utvolsdpm]

I honestly don’t know how they haven’t been sued into oblivion yet

 

[air bud]

I just did some expert testimony and had to explain difference between BQ and BC. I should have just said "because podiatry"

 

[Apolo106]

I just did some expert testimony and had to explain difference between BQ and BC. I should have just said "because podiatry"

Just make sure you don't advertise board qualified status according to their website either.

Advertising Policies

Overview of promoting certification with links to ABFAS Advertising Policies, brochure order page, and certificate page

www.abfas.org

 

[DYK343]

That is absolutely wrong. You can now just buy certification, or at least risk 8K to buy certification.

Absolutely 100% ridiculous.

We have been calling for a way to appeal. I get they probably want to keep everyone who failed from appealing and keep it to a select few who would probably pass if they could better explain x, y, and z. But this is incredibly wrong.

 

[Pronation]

Wow...

 

[dtrack22]

Just make sure you don't advertise board qualified status according to their website either.

This is state law all over the country. This is the weirdest beef to have with ABFAS I've seen on here.

 

[air bud]

Just make sure you don't advertise board qualified status according to their website either.

Advertising Policies

Overview of promoting certification with links to ABFAS Advertising Policies, brochure order page, and certificate page

www.abfas.org

I am aware of this, good to remind others. But that has nothing to do with what I said there...

 

[malleolusman]

Hi guys,
I'm in my first attempt at part 2 case review right now (already passed the CBPS part-woohoo!).
I just got a mass email from ABFAS where they introduced their new appeals policy for case review candidates. At first, I thought this was an amazing step forward to try and increase the abysmal pass rate since I've read and heard so many horror stories about this process . But as I kept on reading, I started feeling a little sick to my stomach at how ridiculous it was, especially this part:
View attachment 302666
Did I read that right? $4K or $8K to appeal a failed case review? That is 8x more than the cost of the original exam itself!
Thoughts?

Again, this is the board for "surgically" trained podiatrists. Supposedly a board that looks out for the public benefit. A board that has grandfathered in older pods who have no business cutting. This is supposedly the best and brightest of our profession. lol

Pathetic. Some podiatrists do well, some do poorly. There's more to life than just getting paid well. The problems with this profession are deep, and leadership has largely failed us. Fin'

and now some prose:

I am a podiatry student
Look
I will be well paid

I am a podiatry doc
Look
I've got it made

Look, at all my classes, and see what it is that I am trained to do
Look, at my fellow colleagues, they can do it...too

O the referrals you'll seek, but will never get
You can count on Podiatry
For that, you can bet

O the colleagues you will find -- will be so petty
Like a fellowship trained podiatrist, you'll be "ready"

The board exams, they are a credential you can trust
If you pass the first time, you'll never call it a bust

Remember the podiatrists who fought in the pandemic?
Neither Do I
The problems in this profession are systemic.

Nails debridements aren't paying a lot of money?
Just hire a surgical associate
AND make sure and treat him scummy!

Never change your ways
Or desire better for the young

You are a podiatrist after all
How would that be fun?!


--

Authors Note: No podiatrists were harmed in the writing of this poem.

 

[MyAnklesAreBroken]

Is it good or bad that I rapped that with Eminem’s voice in my head

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Again, this is the board for "surgically" trained podiatrists. Supposedly a board that looks out for the public benefit. A board that has grandfathered in older pods who have no business cutting. This is supposedly the best and brightest of our profession. lol

Pathetic. Some podiatrists do well, some do poorly. There's more to life than just getting paid well. The problems with this profession are deep, and leadership has largely failed us. Fin'

and now some prose:

I am a podiatry student
Look
I will be well paid

I am a podiatry doc
Look
I've got it made

Look, at all my classes, and see what it is that I am trained to do
Look, at my fellow colleagues, they can do it...too

O the referrals you'll seek, but will never get
You can count on Podiatry
For that, you can bet

O the colleagues you will find -- will be so petty
Like a fellowship trained podiatrist, you'll be "ready"

The board exams, they are a credential you can trust
If you pass the first time, you'll never call it a bust

Remember the podiatrists who fought in the pandemic?
Neither Do I
The problems in this profession are systemic.

Nails debridements aren't paying a lot of money?
Just hire a surgical associate
AND make sure and treat him scummy!

Never change your ways
Or desire better for the young

You are a podiatrist after all
How would that be fun?!


--

Authors Note: No podiatrists were harmed in the writing of this poem.

Send this to PM news

 

[air bud]

Maybe it's a typo and 400 and 800? But then everyone who fails is probably going to submit an appeal. I don't know..

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Maybe it's a typo and 400 and 800? But then everyone who fails is probably going to submit an appeal. I don't know..

It's not a typo. I emailed them and got the following response:

"The fee for appealing findings in Part II Case Review in Foot Surgery is $4,000. If the candidate is appealing findings in both Foot and RRA Surgery Case Review, the cost is $8,000"

 

[heybrother]

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[de Ribas]

It's not a typo. I emailed them and got the following response:

"The fee for appealing findings in Part II Case Review in Foot Surgery is $4,000. If the candidate is appealing findings in both Foot and RRA Surgery Case Review, the cost is $8,000"

So, why is it so expensive? Does it cost so much for the process of the actual review? Crazy

 

[malleolusman]

So, why is it so expensive? Does it cost so much for the process of the actual review? Crazy

Because like anything like in this terrible profession, its about MONEY, not integrity. MONEY, not protecting the public. This is right in line with what most of podiatry is as a profession, a scam.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

 

[heybrother]

The dating term for it is sexual time travel. That's where you screw people you've already screwed in the past.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

I do NOT advocate the outrageous fees. The theory is that they have to pay reviewers, etc., etc., but the real reason is simply to discourage everyone from appealing. My friend is a reviewer and he/she said that some of the cases they get are horrendous.

The good news is that IF you win the appeal the money is refunded. I’m pretty sure that the appeal overturns are minimal at best.

 

[air bud]

I do NOT advocate the outrageous fees. The theory is that they have to pay reviewers, etc., etc., but the real reason is simply to discourage everyone from appealing. My friend is a reviewer and he/she said that some of the cases they get are horrendous.

The good news is that IF you win the appeal the money is refunded. I’m pretty sure that the appeal overturns are minimal at best.

But there was no appeal process before, so it's not like they were annoyed with the amount and wanted to discourage them.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

But there was no appeal process before, so it's not like they were annoyed with the amount and wanted to discourage them.

I know people there who make the decisions and this information came from someone very involved.

Prior to the computer exams, the written and oral exams were given once annually at one location in a suburb of Chicago. It was a weekend of written and oral exams.

I was an examiner for many years for the oral portion of the exam. At that time the oral exam was 8 questions given over three sessions in 2 days. You walked down the hallway into a hotel room and had an examiner in each room (I know....oral in the hotel room always sounded intriguing) and you had a different examiner for each question.

If you felt that you were treated unfairly during one of the oral exam questions, you could immediately ask for a “challenge” for another examiner and question (this was only allowed once). In all the years I gave the exam I did see some challenges and never saw anyone pass the challenge question. It was like asking someone to repeat the Krebs cycle backwards in 9 seconds. Passing a challenge wasn’t gonna happen.

Ditto for the case review appeal.

 

[uberconfuzzled]

I do NOT advocate the outrageous fees. The theory is that they have to pay reviewers, etc., etc., but the real reason is simply to discourage everyone from appealing. My friend is a reviewer and he/she said that some of the cases they get are horrendous.

The good news is that IF you win the appeal the money is refunded. I’m pretty sure that the appeal overturns are minimal at best.

A senior colleague of mine has also been an ABFAS reviewer for many years and yes, he/she has seen some horrible cases that definitely deserved to fail. I dont doubt many podiatrists like that exist.

But the logic is flawed. You can request to appeal at no cost and they have to approve the request before payment is accepted. That doesn't decrease the number of people making the request (given the fail rates, I'm guessing a lot of people would be doing this). Also, nowadays many hospitals are requiring you pass within 5-7 years to maintain privileges. If you are desperate and need to get this certification to make a living you will not be deterred from paying these fees to get an appeal.
If the reasoning was really to discourage everyone from appealing, then a simpler solution would be to pass more people in the first place.
Like you said, I have very little faith that the appeals process will change the pass rate/outcome. The only difference now is ABFAS will pocket some more money.

Story time: Another colleague of mine is an excellent surgeon with very good outcomes. He is also very thorough in his documentation-I know because I've seen the notes, I've seen the xrays and I've seen the patients. This person failed 2 times before passing on the 3rd try (I guess there's that golden rule). He/she showed me some of the reasoning why points were docked and they were utterly ridiculous and really made no sense. The request to appeal was denied both times. Now this colleague asked our ABFAS reviewer colleague why they kept failing. The response: ego.

 

[air bud]

As I have said - there is no current appeals process. Trust me I have tried. As I have talked about before I had a case of lapidus done on a young patient (excellent outcome). I asked multiple former ABFAS board members to look at a case of mine. I was docked on 4/7 categories using the SAME excuse - there was an open growth plate on the 1st TMT base. HINT: The growth plate was closed. All the people said that is a closed growth plate, should not have docked, sorry there is no way to officially appeal. Passing this case would have made me pass forefoot case review.

Again other things I got docked for on my first try at boards:

1. A patient I chose to do a youngswick on instead of a fusion because she wanted to walk right away. I would have done an implant to allow walking aright away but she had RA. I didn't work and she needed a fusion within a year. I was just out of residency and afraid to walk 1st MPJ fusions right away ( I walk all of them off the table now). I had a bad outcome, it was my fault - I deserved to fail this case. I think i got docked on 5/7 categories.

2. Peds lapidus - see above - absolutely bullsh*t the growth plate was closed not one person has ever seen the case and agreed with the reviewer

3. Lack of healing of dorsal arm of austin - Cash pay patient, no pain in shoes walking good outcome at 12 weeks. Still didn't have complete healing of dorsal arm on the lateral. I didn't want the patient to have to pay for xrays that were pointless other than for my boards so I didn't get another set of xrays just to show healing - HINT: I should have

4. Elevated 1st ray after lapidus. Debatable if elevated as we all know positioning can impact this. It wasn't egregiouis and again patient had no symptoms with final xrays at 16 weeks.

I don't remember what else if there was any.

 

[Scrantonicity]

As I have said - there is no current appeals process. Trust me I have tried. As I have talked about before I had a case of lapidus done on a young patient (excellent outcome). I asked multiple former ABFAS board members to look at a case of mine. I was docked on 4/7 categories using the SAME excuse - there was an open growth plate on the 1st TMT base. HINT: The growth plate was closed. All the people said that is a closed growth plate, should not have docked, sorry there is no way to officially appeal. Passing this case would have made me pass forefoot case review.

Again other things I got docked for on my first try at boards:

1. A patient I chose to do a youngswick on instead of a fusion because she wanted to walk right away. I would have done an implant to allow walking aright away but she had RA. I didn't work and she needed a fusion within a year. I was just out of residency and afraid to walk 1st MPJ fusions right away ( I walk all of them off the table now). I had a bad outcome, it was my fault - I deserved to fail this case. I think i got docked on 5/7 categories.

2. Peds lapidus - see above - absolutely bullsh*t the growth plate was closed not one person has ever seen the case and agreed with the reviewer

3. Lack of healing of dorsal arm of austin - Cash pay patient, no pain in shoes walking good outcome at 12 weeks. Still didn't have complete healing of dorsal arm on the lateral. I didn't want the patient to have to pay for xrays that were pointless other than for my boards so I didn't get another set of xrays just to show healing - HINT: I should have

4. Elevated 1st ray after lapidus. Debatable if elevated as we all know positioning can impact this. It wasn't egregiouis and again patient had no symptoms with final xrays at 16 weeks.

I don't remember what else if there was any.

The first time I failed, I was scratching my head for months trying to figure out the ******ed reasons my case reviews had failed. None of it made sense, except for one case where you could still see the Austin osteotomy on the final X ray (patient was asymptomatic).

I remember one of my cases failed because the last note I had on her mentioned that she still had some edema. They suggested that I follow up with her again (she had been released because she was pain free).

The entire next year, I completely removed any mention of edema/swelling in ANY of my post-op notes, just so I wouldn't get dinged on it for boards. What a stupid profession.

 

[CutsWithFury]

The first time I failed, I was scratching my head for months trying to figure out the ******ed reasons my case reviews had failed. None of it made sense, except for one case where you could still see the Austin osteotomy on the final X ray (patient was asymptomatic).

I remember one of my cases failed because the last note I had on her mentioned that she still had some edema. They suggested that I follow up with her again (she had been released because she was pain free).

The entire next year, I completely removed any mention of edema/swelling in ANY of my post-op notes, just so I wouldn't get dinged on it for boards. What a stupid profession.

WOW

 

[DYK343]

I had a lapidus elevatus case. I uploaded intraop xray showing simulated weightbearing w good positioning. She didnt have the best quality bone and she clearly walked on it. I just documented all of that in my notes. Maybe I got docked for elevatus but I still passed. I believe I documented the elevatus and documented that I offered revision or a cotton osteotomy. Patient denied due to lack of pain.

I had at least one asymptomatic non-union. It didnt look good on x-ray but patient is still to this day is very happy (recently saw her for a different issue). I documented that I offered to take the patient back to surgery but she denied because she had zero pain.

I had a questionable fusion of a 1st MTPJ. It was most likely fused but it wasnt a pretty x-ray.

I think there was another one I was worried about but I cant remember what case that was.

I still passed. Maybe I got lucky and got a favorable reviewer. Or its multifactorial why we pass/fail...

 

[uberconfuzzled]

As I have said - there is no current appeals process. Trust me I have tried. As I have talked about before I had a case of lapidus done on a young patient (excellent outcome). I asked multiple former ABFAS board members to look at a case of mine. I was docked on 4/7 categories using the SAME excuse - there was an open growth plate on the 1st TMT base. HINT: The growth plate was closed. All the people said that is a closed growth plate, should not have docked, sorry there is no way to officially appeal. Passing this case would have made me pass forefoot case review.

Again other things I got docked for on my first try at boards:

1. A patient I chose to do a youngswick on instead of a fusion because she wanted to walk right away. I would have done an implant to allow walking aright away but she had RA. I didn't work and she needed a fusion within a year. I was just out of residency and afraid to walk 1st MPJ fusions right away ( I walk all of them off the table now). I had a bad outcome, it was my fault - I deserved to fail this case. I think i got docked on 5/7 categories.

2. Peds lapidus - see above - absolutely bullsh*t the growth plate was closed not one person has ever seen the case and agreed with the reviewer

3. Lack of healing of dorsal arm of austin - Cash pay patient, no pain in shoes walking good outcome at 12 weeks. Still didn't have complete healing of dorsal arm on the lateral. I didn't want the patient to have to pay for xrays that were pointless other than for my boards so I didn't get another set of xrays just to show healing - HINT: I should have

4. Elevated 1st ray after lapidus. Debatable if elevated as we all know positioning can impact this. It wasn't egregiouis and again patient had no symptoms with final xrays at 16 weeks.

I don't remember what else if there was any.

This is my first attempt. I have been having nightmares about this whole process. It seems like I might not pass this round either.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I didn’t realize they only offer case review once a year until recently (my fault I know, but when you get out and start practicing you kind of get caught up in other things). I just figured If I don’t pass in time no problem, I’ll start over from the beginning and everything will be ok. However, they inconveniently changed the rules recently that you have 7 years to pass or you never get to try ever again. One year I pissed away because I passed boards during residency and I did a fellowship, but fellowship cases don’t count. So now here I am, I have one shot to submit cases. I am freaking out about the case review as it’s so subjective.

And to make things worse if you don’t pass the foot case review and go on to get certified, you can pass all the other steps for RRA but you’ll still never be able to get certified in RRA. So I potentially pissed away a lot of time and money getting RRA qualified. At this point I wish I didn’t take any of the RRA exams until I am completely done with the foot section.

The system is definitely flawed. It’s also frustrating that things seem to keep changing for the worse instead of getting better. To me the whole thing seems like a way to gatekeep and try to keep new graduates from being competition.

 

[CutsWithFury]

I didn’t realize they only offer case review once a year until recently (my fault I know, but when you get out and start practicing you kind of get caught up in other things). I just figured If I don’t pass in time no problem, I’ll start over from the beginning and everything will be ok. However, they inconveniently changed the rules recently that you have 7 years to pass or you never get to try ever again. One year I pissed away because I passed boards during residency and I did a fellowship, but fellowship cases don’t count. So now here I am, I have one shot to submit cases. I am freaking out about the case review as it’s so subjective.

And to make things worse if you don’t pass the foot case review and go on to get certified, you can pass all the other steps for RRA but you’ll still never be able to get certified in RRA. So I potentially pissed away a lot of time and money getting RRA qualified. At this point I wish I didn’t take any of the RRA exams until I am completely done with the foot section.

The system is definitely flawed. It’s also frustrating that things seem to keep changing for the worse instead of getting better. To me the whole thing seems like a way to gatekeep and try to keep new graduates from being competition.

How many years out are you?


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[Utvolsdpm]

How many years out are you?


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I graduated residency in 2014. Did a fellowship 1 year. Switched jobs after 1 year. This July will be my 4th year at the same place. I accumulated enough cases maybe 1-2 years ago. Then I looked in to the case review part but just missed it this time by a few weeks. They wouldn’t let me apply late and of course the whole thing is postponed now due to covid. They also wouldn’t grant another year due to doing a fellowship that gathers no cases. They seriously just told me. - don’t worry about it, you’ll be fine.

 

[uberconfuzzled]

I graduated residency in 2014. Did a fellowship 1 year. Switched jobs after 1 year. This July will be my 4th year at the same place. I accumulated enough cases maybe 1-2 years ago. Then I looked in to the case review part but just missed it this time by a few weeks. They wouldn’t let me apply late and of course the whole thing is postponed now due to covid. They also wouldn’t grant another year due to doing a fellowship that gathers no cases. They seriously just told me. - don’t worry about it, you’ll be fine.

I would look into the 7 year rule. I am not 100 % certain, but I remember it was 7 years from the date of residency graduation starting with the class of 2015 I THINK. So, if you graduated before their cutoff, the 7 years may not apply to you at all
But you may be out of luck if your institution or hospital requires certification within 5-7 years of employment.
When I was a resident, I had a new attending who graduated somewhere around 2012/2013. He/she is still taking this stupid test and sitting for case review RRA again this year ....

 

[air bud]

I had a lapidus elevatus case. I uploaded intraop xray showing simulated weightbearing w good positioning. She didnt have the best quality bone and she clearly walked on it. I just documented all of that in my notes. Maybe I got docked for elevatus but I still passed. I believe I documented the elevatus and documented that I offered revision or a cotton osteotomy. Patient denied due to lack of pain.

I had at least one asymptomatic non-union. It didnt look good on x-ray but patient is still to this day is very happy (recently saw her for a different issue). I documented that I offered to take the patient back to surgery but she denied because she had zero pain.

I had a questionable fusion of a 1st MTPJ. It was most likely fused but it wasnt a pretty x-ray.

I think there was another one I was worried about but I cant remember what case that was.

I still passed. Maybe I got lucky and got a favorable reviewer. Or its multifactorial why we pass/fail...

As far as I know you only get feedback when you fail. I know multiple former board members and they always stress it's fine to have bad cases, as long as you do the right thing like deal with wound dehisc, non unions etc. Just hope you have enough time to get the patient to a good outcome.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I would look into the 7 year rule. I am not 100 % certain, but I remember it was 7 years from the date of residency graduation starting with the class of 2015 I THINK. So, if you graduated before their cutoff, the 7 years may not apply to you at all
But you may be out of luck if your institution or hospital requires certification within 5-7 years of employment.
When I was a resident, I had a new attending who graduated somewhere around 2012/2013. He/she is still taking this stupid test and sitting for case review RRA again this year ....

Unfortunately they chose the date I graduated - “If you do not achieve Board Certification by the close of the seventh year after you achieve Board Qualification status, you will no longer be eligible for ABFAS certification, unless you finished a PM&S-36, PMSR or PMSR/RRA residency program prior to 2014 and requalify.” (I graduated 2014)

but I believe they passed this rule after I graduated? So I didn’t know it applied to me until recently.

 

[DYK343]

As far as I know you only get feedback when you fail. I know multiple former board members and they always stress it's fine to have bad cases, as long as you do the right thing like deal with wound dehisc, non unions etc. Just hope you have enough time to get the patient to a good outcome.

Yeah I didnt get any feedback

 

[podfam3008]

Just curious, did anyone decide to appeal this year? Is there any situation where it may be a good idea to? At least it's being offered, although at a hefty fee.

 

[Feli]

Just curious, did anyone decide to appeal this year? Is there any situation where it may be a good idea to? At least it's being offered, although at a hefty fee.

They already review close passing results on the written (qual / part 1), so I'd imagine they auto-review CBPS close misses on part 2 also.

The question is just the case review part 2 section... and that is a bit subjective based on reviewer anyways. I don't think they will have any takers on review... all you'd be hoping for is a different reviewer, and yeah, that is fairly expensive to get a different expert trained in how the format and case review scoring goes. You'd be better off buying yourself a vacation, 6 pack, extra spending money, and studying and passing it the next year. I don't think they can pull the same exact cases on later re-take if you fail case review.