Abortion Providers

[mysophobe]

So, abortion isn't right unless it suits your needs? Try teaching your daughter those ideals.

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[Poety]

So, abortion isn't right unless it suits your needs? Try teaching your daughter those ideals.

Oh I don't think so - anencephaly is not compatible with life Down syndrome is IS, there would be NO REASON to terminate a baby with ANYTHING COMPATIBLE with LIFE.

 

[dnw826]

Personally I wouldn't be able to carry a baby with anencephaly to term. I also don't think the woman with a known genetic defect (like one patient I had) should keep getting pregnant (I konw anencephaly is not genetic) over and over and over again just to spontaneously lose the baby in her 30th week - THAT shouldn't be allowed either, each of her baby's would live for like 22 hours and then pass away.

So, as you can see, I'm a bit more in the gray area with my beliefs.

I have worked in special education and infertility. You would be amazed how many people with known horrible genetic defects will do anything to get pregnant. And I have seen the suffering of way too many disabled kids to be able to bring one to term if I found out relatively early. I just couldn't force my child into a life of suffering until they slowly die in astounding pain.

 

[mysophobe]

Oh I don't think so - anencephaly is not compatible with life Down syndrome is IS, there would be NO REASON to terminate a baby with ANYTHING COMPATIBLE with LIFE.

Your post didn't seem to be limited specifically to anencephaly. (wish there was some sort of big rolling eyes smiley to accent my point) The feeling of my post comes across harsher than I expected it to, so I'm sorry. It just seemed to me that you felt abortion was wrong unless it would be to your benefit. If that was not your meaning, then I'm sorry I misunderstood.

 

[Flea girl]

Oh I don't think so - anencephaly is not compatible with life Down syndrome is IS, there would be NO REASON to terminate a baby with ANYTHING COMPATIBLE with LIFE.

Just to throw some fuel on the fire....In regards to Down Syndrome people with it have a 100% chance of getting Alzheinmer's dz between the ages of 40-50yrs. My Grandmother has AZ and let me tell you it is not something that is a good thing. Also, children born with Down's and have MANY serious health issues that can compromise their health in a very serious way. I am not trying to be crass but not all Down's kids are like Corky. Alot of these kids have a ton of medical issues on top of their decrease mental capacities. So, I think if a woman decided to abort a Down's child it is her right, not yours unless you are going to care for that child yourself. But by now you all know that I feel that abortions should remain legal. No matter what the reason, (I am not talking about 34 weeks abs b/c the mom decided she no longer wanted a child). When the fetus is viable outside the uterus all bets are off, you have the time to make up your mind. And yes, I have 2 children of my own. I seriously believe that education is the way to prevent abs, unwanted pregnancies, and STDs. Okay, I am done with my rant for now.

 

[Songeur]

Whats all this discussion of fetuses being alive or not?

How can someone say that a being that hears, feels, swallows etc etc, that if allowed to be born (assuming viability) would be legally "living", is not alive -
So if I was pregnant and 30 weeks seeking a late abortion but had PPROM and child was born 2 days later and is suddenly "alive", then retrospectively does that mean that the child inside me at 30 weeks is not alive?
Isn't that what CTGs and biophysical profiles etc etc are for? Or is it to assess the viability of dead fetuses? Maybe Im going crazy.

I wanted to speakto this as well. There are a couple of threads covering this topic and I responded in the other with no answer to my question yet...so I would like to post my thoughts here as well.

pasted from other thread:
There are two arguments in favor of performing abortions which seem to be intricately tied even if it is not apparent to those who hold to them: 1)autonomy over one's body (even in light of causing or allowing another human to die) and 2)fetuses are not human beings.

I need to start with number two. I know that our laws and all the debate in the world has not allowed to us to definitively say exactly when an embryo becomes a human life. The gestational age of viablilty has been mentioned several times in this thread, 24 weeks, (as well as the fact that very, very few abortions are performed after this age), and so I am assuming that maybe 24 weeks is when the fetus becomes qualified as "human life". So I have to know something...when due to PROM my 22-weeker, not-viable baby is born and she cries and suckles and responds to my touch and lives for 8 hours and 23 minutes, did something happen to her in the minutes between living in utero and living in my arms that made her suddenly human...or are you willing to tell me that she was not human life? Or what about my 14-week son who also was born very suddenly due to PROM who still moved his arms and legs and tiny mouth as if to cry for minutes afterwards...does something just as magical happen between 14 and 22 or 14 and 24 weeks that changes the very substance of that fetus from something that is not human life to something that is? If so...what is it? I am asking this not only because I struggle with the idea that a fetus is not human life, but also because if it is the case, then I am a mother to non-human life...and that is nearly unbearable.

It was said somewhere here that even if a fetus were human life, it would still be OK to abort due to the inherent right to autonomy over one's body. It was also said (by the same poster, I think) that a person does not have to donate his/her kidney or even his/her blood to his/her own child if he/she doesn't want to...but that same person would be considered a "bag of ****"---I think it was.

I do not believe the two arguments can be separated. If you believe abortion to be OK based on autonomy over one's own body, but believe a fetus is human life, then you must also believe those who have abortions (perform abortions?) are "bags of ****". So, it seems, for the autonomy argument to hold water, then you cannot consider fetuses to be human life (at least not without also considering yourself to be a bag of ****). I know that Trustwomen does hold to both arguments, but she also claims that they are separate arguments. They are not. If you accept one, you have to accept both.

I know that there are terrible, terrible situations with no easy answers. There are many situations where I can understand why a person would have an abortion. I believe that (for the most part) people who perform abortions are doing so because they believe they are helping and are showing compassion.

The rub comes in for me here: I do not believe it is right to kill human life. And I cannot understand how a fetus is not human life.

(Just an aside...I know that the procedure for d&c and d&e are similar if not identical to most abortions...the difference is that the fetus in those cases is already dead. I thought I read someone muddying the water there...)

 

[Songeur]

I think I had no problem working path lab with fetuses up to 24 weeks (handling them, packaging them in formaldehyde-filled containers, washing the instruments, etc) in large part because I also got the chance to do counseling. When you meet these women, when you realize how desperate they are, it becomes clear that the abortion is necessary and serves the greater good. I simply remind myself that there is no possibility of fetal consciousness at that stage; it didn't suffer, and the woman (and her family) will be spared lots of suffering thanks to the abortion. It's not easy and it's not for everyone, I'll give you that.

"no possibility of fetal consciousness at that stage"...that is simply not what I saw in either of my babies.

 

[Flea girl]

I wanted to speakto this as well. There are a couple of threads covering this topic and I responded in the other with no answer to my question yet...so I would like to post my thoughts here as well.

pasted from other thread:
There are two arguments in favor of performing abortions which seem to be intricately tied even if it is not apparent to those who hold to them: 1)autonomy over one's body (even in light of causing or allowing another human to die) and 2)fetuses are not human beings.

I need to start with number two. I know that our laws and all the debate in the world has not allowed to us to definitively say exactly when an embryo becomes a human life. The gestational age of viablilty has been mentioned several times in this thread, 24 weeks, (as well as the fact that very, very few abortions are performed after this age), and so I am assuming that maybe 24 weeks is when the fetus becomes qualified as "human life". So I have to know something...when due to PROM my 22-weeker, not-viable baby is born and she cries and suckles and responds to my touch and lives for 8 hours and 23 minutes, did something happen to her in the minutes between living in utero and living in my arms that made her suddenly human...or are you willing to tell me that she was not human life? Or what about my 14-week son who also was born very suddenly due to PROM who still moved his arms and legs and tiny mouth as if to cry for minutes afterwards...does something just as magical happen between 14 and 22 or 14 and 24 weeks that changes the very substance of that fetus from something that is not human life to something that is? If so...what is it? I am asking this not only because I struggle with the idea that a fetus is not human life, but also because if it is the case, then I am a mother to non-human life...and that is nearly unbearable.

It was said somewhere here that even if a fetus were human life, it would still be OK to abort due to the inherent right to autonomy over one's body. It was also said (by the same poster, I think) that a person does not have to donate his/her kidney or even his/her blood to his/her own child if he/she doesn't want to...but that same person would be considered a "bag of ****"---I think it was.

I do not believe the two arguments can be separated. If you believe abortion to be OK based on autonomy over one's own body, but believe a fetus is human life, then you must also believe those who have abortions (perform abortions?) are "bags of ****". So, it seems, for the autonomy argument to hold water, then you cannot consider fetuses to be human life (at least not without also considering yourself to be a bag of ****). I know that Trustwomen does hold to both arguments, but she also claims that they are separate arguments. They are not. If you accept one, you have to accept both.

I know that there are terrible, terrible situations with no easy answers. There are many situations where I can understand why a person would have an abortion. I believe that (for the most part) people who perform abortions are doing so because they believe they are helping and are showing compassion.

The rub comes in for me here: I do not believe it is right to kill human life. And I cannot understand how a fetus is not human life.

(Just an aside...I know that the procedure for d&c and d&e are similar if not identical to most abortions...the difference is that the fetus in those cases is already dead. I thought I read someone muddying the water there...)

I am very sorry for your situation. However, what people mean by the 24 week mark is that the fetus is considered viable at that age. Meaning that if the child was to be delivered it would not survive. Like in cases of both of your children; the children did not survive. One of my best friends had a child with Meckels Gruber(sp?). They found out at the 20 week u/s. they were given the option to abort. They chose not to and their child lived for 5 min before she passed. The child was born with a hole in her head, 12 finger and 12 toes, as well as multiple other organ deformaties. I believe that abortion is a very private matter. Everyone situation is a different and I really feel that unless you have walked in that other person shoes...DO NOT JUDGE THEM. Oh you have your information a bit mixed up; D&C(dilation and currettage) and D&E(dilation and extraction) are different procedures...D&C performed for missed ABs(miscarriges) or in TABs(theraputic abortions, elective abortions) or for DUB(dysfunctional uterine bleeding). D&E are performed for fetal demise after the first tri(over 12 weeks ie second tri) or for cases of second tri abs(over 12 weeks). Both can be performed whether or not the fetus is alive. The difference is based on gestational age(or size).

 

[Poety]

"no possibility of fetal consciousness at that stage"...that is simply not what I saw in either of my babies.

I'm so sorry Songeur about your loss, really. From the moment of conception, I'm sure your babies had consciousness, to their own capacity and degree. Just because physicians may not understand it, doesn't make it any LESS real. They are real, they are living, and they are real babies.


Myosophobe, no problem. I would never suggest that abortion should be used as a determining factor in lifestyle

Also, to the person that wrote about Down's syndrome : YOU seriously DO NOT know who you are talking to on here, and saying crap about CORKY is INSULTING. How do you know I don't have a family member with Down's? YOUR POST was CRASS.

And, the only reason abortion needs to be legal is PROTECT WOMEN that no matter what you tell htem are going to SEEK IT OUT, over and over and over again -for their 4th, 5th ,6th and 7th, so yeah I'm a feminist in that sense, PROTECT THE WOMEN, but it still doesn't make it RIGHT.

Autonomy my ass, USE A RUBBER.

 

[LADoc00]

I wanna throw this out: Are we as a species getting dumber and uglier as the result of birth control in general? Seems that hotter, smarter women have less kids, use BC more regularly and otherwise have more abortions.

What fate are we in store for as a race? I would argue this rivals global warming and nuclear terrorism. Where is the presidential security council on the hot smart chick birth dearth?!

I urge all men to join me in combatting this dire threat to the entire human race and impregnate cute smart women!

This is a crisis we all need to confront!

PS-Im thinking of parachuting 20 year old horny Navy Seals armed with liter bottles of Southern Comfort into Ivy league grad schools....maybe with high tech birth control negating dart guns or something.

 

[dnw826]

I wanna throw this out: Are we as a species getting dumber and uglier as the result of birth control in general? Seems that hotter, smarter women have less kids, use BC more regularly and otherwise have more abortions.

What fate are we in store for as a race? I would argue this rivals global warming and nuclear terrorism. Where is the presidential security council on the hot smart chick birth dearth?!

I urge all men to join me in combatting this dire threat to the entire human race and impregnate cute smart women!

This is a crisis we all need to confront!

PS-Im thinking of parachuting 20 year old horny Navy Seals armed with liter bottles of Southern Comfort into Ivy league grad schools....maybe with high tech birth control negating dart guns or something.

I surely hope you are kidding. Though I do agree about the fact that more educated and wealthy women are less likely to have more kids. Maybe due to the fact that said women have more means and motivation to get an education and put off childbearing? Then when it comes time to conceive, it is incredibly more difficult. But that's a whole other discussion. And I wouldn't use the term "race" or a bunch of people are likely to freak out on you. How about "species"?

 

[AtYourCervix]

I wanna throw this out: Are we as a species getting dumber and uglier as the result of birth control in general? Seems that hotter, smarter women have less kids, use BC more regularly and otherwise have more abortions.

What fate are we in store for as a race? I would argue this rivals global warming and nuclear terrorism. Where is the presidential security council on the hot smart chick birth dearth?!

I urge all men to join me in combatting this dire threat to the entire human race and impregnate cute smart women!

This is a crisis we all need to confront!

PS-Im thinking of parachuting 20 year old horny Navy Seals armed with liter bottles of Southern Comfort into Ivy league grad schools....maybe with high tech birth control negating dart guns or something.

this has been argued for years and years. its called eugenics.

 

[LADoc00]

this has been argued for years and years. its called eugenics.

Your implication is eugenics is bad..put aside racist theories, basic eugenics is very much a valid science at its core. All genes are not created equal. Although my post is in jest, there is a very real societal danger of having all the educated elite stand around holding their collective uteri in stasis....

 

[Flea girl]

I'm so sorry Songeur about your loss, really. From the moment of conception, I'm sure your babies had consciousness, to their own capacity and degree. Just because physicians may not understand it, doesn't make it any LESS real. They are real, they are living, and they are real babies.


Myosophobe, no problem. I would never suggest that abortion should be used as a determining factor in lifestyle

Also, to the person that wrote about Down's syndrome : YOU seriously DO NOT know who you are talking to on here, and saying crap about CORKY is INSULTING. How do you know I don't have a family member with Down's? YOUR POST was CRASS.

And, the only reason abortion needs to be legal is PROTECT WOMEN that no matter what you tell htem are going to SEEK IT OUT, over and over and over again -for their 4th, 5th ,6th and 7th, so yeah I'm a feminist in that sense, PROTECT THE WOMEN, but it still doesn't make it RIGHT.

Autonomy my ass, USE A RUBBER.

Frankly, I have been fairly polite until your comment...How do YOU know if I DONT have a family member with Down's or a child for that matter? Have you raised a child with Down's??? Have you been a part of a family with Down's? Are YOU willing to take on the financial, emotional, and physical support of that child? Unless you are; you have no right to put down people for choosing to abort a pregnancy that has been confirmed with DOWN"S! Have YOU ever been faced with that decision? Say what you want but trust me you do not know how it feels unless you have been put there yourself! What my point was that NOT all DOWN'S children fair as well as as the actor potraying CORKY. And for people to be mislead like that is wrong. But like I state before that I was stating MY opinion and MY experience and NO I do not believe that I was being crass. What I do think is that you were being a bit Crass! Again Try walking a mile in another shoes before you start making judgements!! Did I ever say abortion was right? From YOUR posts you make it apppear that you are againist it. What I am saying is that it is a choice for a woman to make and SHOULD remain LEGAL TO PROTECT WOMEN! I hope that we can agree on that point at least. As for your last comment about condoms, well we need to educate our youth to protect themselves of not only unwanted pregnancy but from STDs as well. The problem lies when most of the people against abortions are also againist teaching sex ed and family planning. So, I feel that we need to concentrate on methods of ways to PREVENT pregnancy and STDs. Maybe with more education there will be less abortions.

 

[mysophobe]

Myosophobe, no problem. I would never suggest that abortion should be used as a determining factor in lifestyle

Autonomy my ass, USE A RUBBER.

That brings up a good point. I'm definitely not against abortions, but it absolutely drives me crazy when women use it as a form of birth control, i.e., they just don't feel like using a condom. I can barely restrain myself when I hear that.

 

[Flea girl]

That brings up a good point. I'm definitely not against abortions, but it absolutely drives me crazy when women use it as a form of birth control, i.e., they just don't feel like using a condom. I can barely restrain myself when I hear that.

In my experience it is "My boyfriend/husband does not like to use them. He says it feels much better without". Not saying that is can't go the other way but from all the pateints that I have asked this question about 95% say that it is the man who do not want to use them. But this was My expereince with the condom issue.

 

[mysophobe]

And the girl is incapable of making a decision? Last time I checked, women have something called free will. Just because their "boyfriend doesn't like them" doesn't make it okay to get an abortion.

 

[Flea girl]

And the girl is incapable of making a decision? Last time I checked, women have something called free will. Just because their "boyfriend doesn't like them" doesn't make it okay to get an abortion.

Did I say that it was okay? Oh wait, let's talk a moment about the term "Free Will". Alot of the patients that I have seen(underserved population), unfortunately are somewhat subservant to their respective partners. Yeah, bring on the flames. It is sad but unfortunately true. I do my part by trying to get these woman to stand up for themselves and tell their partners "NO GLOVE NO LOVE". Let me take a wild guess that you are a man. God, do you know I wish that more women would stand up for themselves and say this??!! I had a situation where the female was pregnant for the 4th time in 5 yrs, just had a baby that was 6months old and 7 weeks pregnant, oh by the was she was 20yrs old and yes on welfare. She had come in to get a medical abortion, when we started the counseling session it came out that she was not sure if this was want she wanted to do but the FOP wanted her to get an abortion and he had adamently REFUSED to wear a condom. Now should she drop his ass...Hell yes. Sad thing is she probably won't and he will leave her b/c she is keeping the child. Again, like I had said MANY times before....EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!! The problem lies when people DO NOT want to educate our youth about being sexually responsible. This is where the problem lies.

 

[mysophobe]

Did I say that it was okay? Oh wait, let's talk a moment about the term "Free Will". Alot of the patients that I have seen(underserved population), unfortunately are somewhat subservant to their respective partners. Yeah, bring on the flames. It is sad but unfortunately true. I do my part by trying to get these woman to stand up for themselves and tell their partners "NO GLOVE NO LOVE". Let me take a wild guess that you are a man. God, do you know I wish that more women would stand up for themselves and say this??!! I had a situation where the female was pregnant for the 4th time in 5 yrs, just had a baby that was 6months old and 7 weeks pregnant, oh by the was she was 20yrs old and yes on welfare. She had come in to get a medical abortion, when we started the counseling session it came out that she was not sure if this was want she wanted to do but the FOP wanted her to get an abortion and he had adamently REFUSED to wear a condom. Now should she drop his ass...Hell yes. Sad thing is she probably won't and he will leave her b/c she is keeping the child. Again, like I had said MANY times before....EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!! The problem lies when people DO NOT want to educate our youth about being sexually responsible. This is where the problem lies.

No, I agree with you. This is EXACTLY what I am saying. Education, education, education. Abortion isn't the answer. And, by the way, me being a man has nothing to do with my post. I said that the woman isn't bound by her boyfriend's decision to not wear a rubber. She can refuse/leave/etc. at anytime. But, like you said, she probably won't. I realize this isn't likely to change, but my point still stands.

 

[Flea girl]

No, I agree with you. This is EXACTLY what I am saying. Education, education, education. Abortion isn't the answer. And, by the way, me being a man has nothing to do with my post. I said that the woman isn't bound by her boyfriend's decision to not wear a rubber. She can refuse/leave/etc. at anytime. But, like you said, she probably won't. I realize this isn't likely to change, but my point still stands.

Atleast we can agree on the education part. Abortion may not be the answer but it does need to be legal for women. Because, just because it is not legal does not mean that women will get get them. They will turn to unscrupulous butchers or find ways to abort themselves, if they can not find legal and safe abortions. So, how I look at it is that it needs to be legal in order to protect the women of our country. Well, on the side note of being a man does have something to do with your post, in the sense that the female patients that you deal with may not feel as comfortable talking with you about certain issues then they would if they were talking with a female. Again, the same could be said of men being treated by women. So, what I was trying to imply was that maybe the story you get is a bit different if i were to ask the same question. I wish that that was not the case but I have a feeling it happens a lot more than we would like.

 

[Dr. V]

"no possibility of fetal consciousness at that stage"...that is simply not what I saw in either of my babies.

I am sorry for what you have been through. Take heart, what you observed in your babies was indeed life. The only definition of life they didn't fit would be the legal one.

By both the biological definition and the chemical definition babies are alive at conception but the scientific definition of life doesn't fit the politics of abortion so they needed to make one up. They put it at 26 weeks but that is a man made arbitrary number.

Your babies are important, they are special, and the love you feel for them is real. Yes they were alive, they know you are their mother, and don't let anyone tell you any different.

 

[dnw826]

That brings up a good point. I'm definitely not against abortions, but it absolutely drives me crazy when women use it as a form of birth control, i.e., they just don't feel like using a condom. I can barely restrain myself when I hear that.

Women just don't like using a condom??? I'm sorry, but that's not the reason most women get abortions. How about when the bc fails to work? My son was miraculous in the fact that I was supposedly completely infertile and unable to carry again, breastfeeding, on the mini-pill, and he was a pull out baby? It happens. No matter how safe you think you are sometimes. And isn't it partly the man's job to wear the condom? Takes two to tango. I think once they get the man pill out then theoretically abortions will go down. Once the men who decide ahead of time they don't want to be a parent take more precautions. But I don't know if I'd solely trust a man taking a pill. By G-d, most of the men I know don't even remember to take pain meds when they are dying of pain.

And for the women who do use it as birth control, is it really your place to judge? Do you know the whole story? What about like in China where women are thought of about as highly as cockroaches and birth control outside abortion is incredibly difficult to find? I agree that abortion should not be used lightly. But unless you have been in those shoes to make that decision. And believe me, it is NOT an easy decision to make. Imagine being in the position where you can't raise your child. Your SO doesn't want the baby and tells you to get rid of it or else. Your parents are disappointed in you, refuse to support you, drag you to the clinic and force you by all means. You can feel it living inside of you, and yet you know what has to be done. And then imagine that walk to the clinic, the waiting, the being awake during the procedure and hearing the whir of the vacuum. Then the bleeding and emotional and physical suffering you go through the rest of your life. The nightmares, the feeling you get everytime you see a child. Having to write it over and over again every time you go to the doctor. When the nurse asks how many of your pregnancies are abortions, then wants to know details? You will never forget it.

Been there? Then don't judge another person for it. You have no idea what it's like. I went with my best friend and she is an emotional disaster. Some people might come out of it easier, but most don't.

 

[dnw826]

And the girl is incapable of making a decision? Last time I checked, women have something called free will. Just because their "boyfriend doesn't like them" doesn't make it okay to get an abortion.

I had a boyfriend who promptly took it off when changing position during, and I didn't know until after. Talk about a freakshow.

 

[Poety]

Frankly, I have been fairly polite until your comment...How do YOU know if I DONT have a family member with Down's or a child for that matter? Have you raised a child with Down's??? Have you been a part of a family with Down's? Are YOU willing to take on the financial, emotional, and physical support of that child? Unless you are; you have no right to put down people for choosing to abort a pregnancy that has been confirmed with DOWN"S! Have YOU ever been faced with that decision? Say what you want but trust me you do not know how it feels unless you have been put there yourself! What my point was that NOT all DOWN'S children fair as well as as the actor potraying CORKY. And for people to be mislead like that is wrong. But like I state before that I was stating MY opinion and MY experience and NO I do not believe that I was being crass. What I do think is that you were being a bit Crass! Again Try walking a mile in another shoes before you start making judgements!! Did I ever say abortion was right? From YOUR posts you make it apppear that you are againist it. What I am saying is that it is a choice for a woman to make and SHOULD remain LEGAL TO PROTECT WOMEN! I hope that we can agree on that point at least. As for your last comment about condoms, well we need to educate our youth to protect themselves of not only unwanted pregnancy but from STDs as well. The problem lies when most of the people against abortions are also againist teaching sex ed and family planning. So, I feel that we need to concentrate on methods of ways to PREVENT pregnancy and STDs. Maybe with more education there will be less abortions.

Totally agree, and the answer is yes to ALL the questions you asked earlier in the post

 

[mysophobe]

Atleast we can agree on the education part. Abortion may not be the answer but it does need to be legal for women. Because, just because it is not legal does not mean that women will get get them. They will turn to unscrupulous butchers or find ways to abort themselves, if they can not find legal and safe abortions. So, how I look at it is that it needs to be legal in order to protect the women of our country. Well, on the side note of being a man does have something to do with your post, in the sense that the female patients that you deal with may not feel as comfortable talking with you about certain issues then they would if they were talking with a female. Again, the same could be said of men being treated by women. So, what I was trying to imply was that maybe the story you get is a bit different if i were to ask the same question. I wish that that was not the case but I have a feeling it happens a lot more than we would like.

Oooo, misunderstanding. I am definitely NOT for making abortion illegal. I don't think it's the answer to couples not wanting to use condoms, but it most certainly needs to be legal.

 

[mysophobe]

Women just don't like using a condom??? I'm sorry, but that's not the reason most women get abortions. How about when the bc fails to work? My son was miraculous in the fact that I was supposedly completely infertile and unable to carry again, breastfeeding, on the mini-pill, and he was a pull out baby? It happens. No matter how safe you think you are sometimes. And isn't it partly the man's job to wear the condom? Takes two to tango. I think once they get the man pill out then theoretically abortions will go down. Once the men who decide ahead of time they don't want to be a parent take more precautions. But I don't know if I'd solely trust a man taking a pill. By G-d, most of the men I know don't even remember to take pain meds when they are dying of pain.

And for the women who do use it as birth control, is it really your place to judge? Do you know the whole story? What about like in China where women are thought of about as highly as cockroaches and birth control outside abortion is incredibly difficult to find? I agree that abortion should not be used lightly. But unless you have been in those shoes to make that decision. And believe me, it is NOT an easy decision to make. Imagine being in the position where you can't raise your child. Your SO doesn't want the baby and tells you to get rid of it or else. Your parents are disappointed in you, refuse to support you, drag you to the clinic and force you by all means. You can feel it living inside of you, and yet you know what has to be done. And then imagine that walk to the clinic, the waiting, the being awake during the procedure and hearing the whir of the vacuum. Then the bleeding and emotional and physical suffering you go through the rest of your life. The nightmares, the feeling you get everytime you see a child. Having to write it over and over again every time you go to the doctor. When the nurse asks how many of your pregnancies are abortions, then wants to know details? You will never forget it.

Been there? Then don't judge another person for it. You have no idea what it's like. I went with my best friend and she is an emotional disaster. Some people might come out of it easier, but most don't.

Uh, simmer down Charlie. It isn't my fault you missed the fairly obvious point I was trying to make about careless women (and men--I left that part out, and I'm sorry) that just don't feel like using it.

And, by the way, I HAVE been there. Don't assume things you have no way of knowing.

 

[Songeur]

I am very sorry for your situation. However, what people mean by the 24 week mark is that the fetus is considered viable at that age. Meaning that if the child was to be delivered it would not survive. Like in cases of both of your children; the children did not survive. One of my best friends had a child with Meckels Gruber(sp?). They found out at the 20 week u/s. they were given the option to abort. They chose not to and their child lived for 5 min before she passed. The child was born with a hole in her head, 12 finger and 12 toes, as well as multiple other organ deformaties. I believe that abortion is a very private matter. Everyone situation is a different and I really feel that unless you have walked in that other person shoes...DO NOT JUDGE THEM. Oh you have your information a bit mixed up; D&C(dilation and currettage) and D&E(dilation and extraction) are different procedures...D&C performed for missed ABs(miscarriges) or in TABs(theraputic abortions, elective abortions) or for DUB(dysfunctional uterine bleeding). D&E are performed for fetal demise after the first tri(over 12 weeks ie second tri) or for cases of second tri abs(over 12 weeks). Both can be performed whether or not the fetus is alive. The difference is based on gestational age(or size).

I am not "judging them"...not at all. Situations like you described are so extremely painful. I know.

I am taking issue with the idea that fetuses are not to be considered human life before 24 weeks. Trustwomen talks about having seen several late abortions with babies at 20 or 22 weeks (before the age of viability) and she was cool with that since there was no way there was any fetal consciousness. She supports the idea then that the fetuses are not "human life". I want to know from her or someone in agreement with her how she comes to that conclusion when I have seen the consciousness of 22 weekers and even much younger.

I understand better than you can imagine what "the age of viability" means. I would give anything to get there with a baby.

 

[Poety]

I understand better than you can imagine what "the age of viability" means. I would give anything to get there with a baby.

My prayers are with you Songeur.

 

[Songeur]

I'm so sorry Songeur about your loss, really. From the moment of conception, I'm sure your babies had consciousness, to their own capacity and degree. Just because physicians may not understand it, doesn't make it any LESS real. They are real, they are living, and they are real babies.

Thank you.

 

[dnw826]

Uh, simmer down Charlie. It isn't my fault you missed the fairly obvious point I was trying to make about careless women (and men--I left that part out, and I'm sorry) that just don't feel like using it.

And, by the way, I HAVE been there. Don't assume things you have no way of knowing.

Most people who post comments abouthow women take abortion lightly do NOT know what it's like. That was my point in posting that. Sorry if you thought that it was aimed directly at you, it was more a general statement on a lot of the comments I have been reading.

 

[mysophobe]

Most people who post comments abouthow women take abortion lightly do NOT know what it's like. That was my point in posting that. Sorry if you thought that it was aimed directly at you, it was more a general statement on a lot of the comments I have been reading.

It's no problem. It's easy to misunderstand things on a message board, and you are right--most people don't know what it is like. I agree with you on most of what you said. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought I was, but what I am specifically addressing is that percentage of couples that rely on abortion for birth control because they don't feel like using other methods. And, it is more common than a lot of people think. I've seen it plenty of times.

 

[spalatin]

I am not "judging them"...not at all. Situations like you described are so extremely painful. I know.

I am taking issue with the idea that fetuses are not to be considered human life before 24 weeks. Trustwomen talks about having seen several late abortions with babies at 20 or 22 weeks (before the age of viability) and she was cool with that since there was no way there was any fetal consciousness. She supports the idea then that the fetuses are not "human life". I want to know from her or someone in agreement with her how she comes to that conclusion when I have seen the consciousness of 22 weekers and even much younger.

I understand better than you can imagine what "the age of viability" means. I would give anything to get there with a baby.

When do products of conception aborted by choice at 20 or 22 weeks become wrongful death of baby John when there is a spontaneous miscarriage at 20 or 22 weeks and the OB/abortion provider gets a letter from the plaintiff's attorney?

 

[tiredmom]

Songeur - I'm sorry for your losses. So much of how I think is based on sharing those situations with so many families. My prayers are with you.

Flea girl - Yes, Asherman's is more likely with a sharp currettage, but nearly all d&c's I've seen they used the sharp currettage a bit before the suction, then again after the suction to make sure everything was out. Plus, as vigorously as I've seen the suction used, it has to scrape a bit too.

Regarding the postings about women taking abortions casually... I've seen both extremes. I've seen my best friend have trouble for years with regret after an abortion of a baby with downs. I've also had patients that were as crass and uncaring as I've ever seen regarding their multiple abs. I would venture that most people who take the time to read and post here have had experiences that put them in or near these situations. Which path you take from it is your own choice.

As the mom of a son with special needs, I've been through a lot. Its not something I would wish on someone else, but it's really changed who I am and made me a better person for it. And I couldn't imagine not having my son around, despite all his problems. He's so full of life - and makes me appreciate the little things of this world.

Poetry - sending you a message.

 

[tiredmom]

When do products of conception aborted by choice at 20 or 22 weeks become wrongful death of baby John when there is a spontaneous miscarriage at 20 or 22 weeks and the OB/abortion provider gets a letter from the plaintiff's attorney?

In TX - you can be charged with injury to an unborn child if a pregnant woman is injured and baby dies due to said injury. It's mainly used in domestic violence cases, but there was a DA in the panhandle that sent a letter out to all the ob/gyns saying that moms who tested positive for a DOA were injuring their unborn child. The state legislature clarified that the fetus was a "person" only to people that are not the mother or her doctor. Talk about a double standard - you can get hit by a drunk driver on the way to your abortion and he can get charged with the death of the child!

 

[Poety]

In TX - you can be charged with injury to an unborn child if a pregnant woman is injured and baby dies due to said injury. It's mainly used in domestic violence cases, but there was a DA in the panhandle that sent a letter out to all the ob/gyns saying that moms who tested positive for a DOA were injuring their unborn child. The state legislature clarified that the fetus was a "person" only to people that are not the mother or her doctor. Talk about a double standard - you can get hit by a drunk driver on the way to your abortion and he can get charged with the death of the child!

WHOA thats intense. I pm'd you back.

 

[Songeur]

I am sorry for what you have been through. Take heart, what you observed in your babies was indeed life. The only definition of life they didn't fit would be the legal one.

By both the biological definition and the chemical definition babies are alive at conception but the scientific definition of life doesn't fit the politics of abortion so they needed to make one up. They put it at 26 weeks but that is a man made arbitrary number.

Your babies are important, they are special, and the love you feel for them is real. Yes they were alive, they know you are their mother, and don't let anyone tell you any different.

I realize I am very tender in this area, and I also believe it to be one of the driving forces behind a very strong compassion for my patients...but I really needed to hear someone say this today. I can't believe I totally missed this post the other day. Thank you.