About Homosexuality: "What causes it?"

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I am an openly gay man, but there's one big difference I have with most of the gay community...

I think sexuality is not biological or genetic, and in fact, can see no evidence at all for that. There shouldn't be any logical evolutionary benefit to being gay (yes, you could make kin selection arguments...)

I think the media and the gay community often frame sexuality as tied implicitly to genetics, to rationalize that gay people should be able to live how they want and have equal rights. I think they should have those rights and freedoms no matter what the correct answer is to "Why are people gay?"

To me...sexuality is an incredibley complicated thing, and is a product of childhood experiences, natural inclinations to people, and developed familiarity with certain situations...I just don't see any biologically oriented reason.

I'd like to ask the psychiatrists, psychologists, and anyone who has had familiarity with people who have complicated sexual problems to please opine on this question....

Yet again, I just want to hear all honest opinions, and I do not judge anyone. I say this as an openly gay man and future-shrink *maybe*

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I think sexuality is not biological or genetic, and in fact, can see no evidence at all for that.

To me...sexuality is an incredibley complicated thing, and is a product of childhood experiences, natural inclinations to people, and developed familiarity with certain situations...I just don't see any biologically oriented reason.

This seems to imply that you don't yet really understand what "biological" or "genetic" really mean. I think what you're trying to say is that sexuality is not pre-determined. That's right.

Your brain isn't a soup of magic juice. It's a complicated ball of organic wires and relay stations constantly being modulated by physiologic inputs converted from intra and extracorporeal stimuli. All of these make acute changes to firing patterns. Some, either through intensity or repetition, semi-permanently change the wiring. Your "biology" and "genetics" certainly determine in what ways and what stimuli can be most resilient or most easily pliable to permanent change.

Sexuality is "developmental." Which is a cheap way of saying that biology, genetics, personal experience, and sociologic factors longitudinally produce behaviors. But that doesn't fit well on a poster in a parade.
 
As with most complicated things, the answer is not "Nature" or "Nurture", but as you imply, "All of the Above". That's why in psychiatry we talk about things like biopsychosocial formulations. Like personality, sexuality is a product of your genetic blueprint, pre- and post-natal development, childhood experience, and social milieu, among other influences.

Over the years, I've been frustrated with how the media oversimplifies science and medical issues, of which this is one example. If sexual orientation were 100% genetic--that would still be no more justification for treating it as "right" than it would be to treat it as "wrong" (i.e. calling it a genetic disease!) Furthermore, one's civil rights are not determined on the basis of one's gene pool, but on the basis of one's shared humanity.

So--welcome to the forum.
 
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This seems to imply that you don't yet really understand what "biological" or "genetic" really mean. I think what you're trying to say is that sexuality is not pre-determined. That's right.

Your brain isn't a soup of magic juice. It's a complicated ball of organic wires and relay stations constantly being modulated by physiologic inputs converted from intra and extracorporeal stimuli. All of these make acute changes to firing patterns. Some, either through intensity or repetition, semi-permanently change the wiring. Your "biology" and "genetics" certainly determine in what ways and what stimuli can be most resilient or most easily pliable to permanent change.

Sexuality is "developmental." Which is a cheap way of saying that biology, genetics, personal experience, and sociologic factors longitudinally produce behaviors. But that doesn't fit well on a poster in a parade.


That's 100% correct. I misphrased my question in that respect. Obviously, biologically, we have the option of being gay but what what makes us "choose" one path or the other?
 
I am an openly gay man, but there's one big difference I have with most of the gay community...

Was this preamble to your question necessary? And your exhorbitantly large 'shouting' signature?

I bring this up because I hope that if you are accepted and start the path to being a psychiatrist that you'll have a better grasp and comfort with your identity. Your patients and collegues don't need to be thinking about each others sexual habits or preferences. People don't care. My homosexual friends don't identify themselves to the world by their sexual orientation. They identify themselves as John/Jane Doe who enjoy XYZ and work as a PQRS. The battle is won in medicine. Homosexuality is accepted. But drawing unneeded attention to yourself is as annoying as a surgeon throwing a tantrum in the OR. What good does it do the patient?

But to answer your question I do believe human sexuality is a spectrum. I do believe that it is predominately bimodal and that true bisexuals are rare. Here is an interesting exposure of the matter with personal anonymous postings. http://25thingsaboutmysexuality.blogspot.com/

However, the genetic aspect can't be discounted as I believe some studies had come out showing some definitively gay men having identical PET scans to women with erotic imagery and vice versa (if I remeber it correctly - don't quote me). But at the end of the day who cares. I advocate the pursuit of happiness.

Best of luck in the coming years.
 
1. I felt the preamble was necessary, so that I would not be shouted down as un-PC, bigoted, or something else. Believe it or not, when you ask social questions, labels are often thrown around.


2. My "loud signature" is just an advertisement for a new gay group I created on SDN. Many gay people have been messaging me about various things, so I decided to create the group so that we could converse. I am trying to draw attention to it obviously. That has no relation to the question.

Was this preamble to your question necessary? And your exhorbitantly large 'shouting' signature?

I bring this up because I hope that if you are accepted and start the path to being a psychiatrist that you'll have a better grasp and comfort with your identity...Your patients and collegues don't need to be thinking about each others sexual habits or preferences. People don't care. My homosexual friends don't identify themselves to the world by their sexual orientation. They identify themselves as John/Jane Doe who enjoy XYZ and work as a PQRS. The battle is won in medicine. Homosexuality is accepted. But drawing unneeded attention to yourself is as annoying as a surgeon throwing a tantrum in the OR. What good does it do the patient?

I just asked a honest question on these forums. Please lay off the psychoanalytic personal questions and judgements about who I am or what I think I am.
 
The most compelling evidence of which I am aware suggesting that there is a genetic component to homosexuality is twin studies that show significantly higher monozygotic than dizygotic concordance.

My suspicion is that just like so many other traits, human sexuality is under the influence of both genes and environment. If someone claims that it is only one or the other, I begin to suspect that they haven't thoroughly examined the issue or may have an ideological agenda.

One more thing: Fraternal Birth order has been shown to be an influencing factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation)
 
The physical determination of gender is based on exposure to vs lack of exposure to hormonal cues in fetal development. I don't believe we understand exactly how these cues or follow-ups to these cues exert influence on gender differences in the brain. I suspect, however, that with time it will be discovered that developmental periods with hormonal cues that influence gender or the aftermaths of these periods affect other gender issues than just genital development. I definitely think there's more to it than environment.
 
Your brain isn't a soup of magic juice. It's a complicated ball of organic wires and relay stations constantly being modulated by physiologic inputs converted from intra and extracorporeal stimuli. All of these make acute changes to firing patterns. Some, either through intensity or repetition, semi-permanently change the wiring.

It’s not a truck.

It’s a series of tubes.

And if you don’t understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and its going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.


- Former Alaska Senator Ted Stevens
 
I think to ask the question about what causes homosexuality, you have to have an understanding of what causes heterosexuality. To understand the "abnormal" we have to understand what is "normal." We do not yet understand the process of "normally" developed sexual attraction. I am a psychologist so our focus is more on the PxE interactions from a biopsychosocial focus rather than strictly biological. We know that

sex - chromosonal
gender identity - person's belief that they are a member of their chromosonal sex
gender role - social expectations for gender (public assumes sex=gender)

We know that chromonsonal sex is not always xy or xx, but can sometimes be something else such as Turner/xxx/Klinefelter. We also know that a significant percentage of people are "intersexed" in regards to external sex characteristics and it is based on a continuum rather than being a simple dichotomy of penis/vagina. We know that the prenatal environment (around week 7 I believe) exposes xy embryos to testosterone (and other hormones) and some to xx. We know that xx adults also use testosterone but are more sensitive to it. And the list goes on and one from a biological perspective.

What we do not REALLY know is what causes a person to develop a sexually based attraction for another person, regardless of the other person's sex and/or gender.

An example. I worked with a man who was chromosonally male and had soley external male genitalia (I took him at his word). He had always been sexually attracted to men. His gender and gender identity was female in that he saw himself as a female heterosexually attracted to men. He did not see his body as male but acknowledged, yet hated, the fact that he had normal male genitalia. He also hated the fact that he was what society saw as gay, as he did not want to be gay. He did not like being attracted to men.

So, bottom line. Until we know how "normal" works, we can't specify how "abnormal" works.
 
This is an area I learned more about in psychology than psychiatry. Makes sense as well. Why would psychiatrists argue about the cause of homosexuality when its not considered a pathology?

The data I know of is years old. There was a study (and I don't have the reference on me, it's in a textbook at my parents) where someone theorized homosexuality was a result of decreased testosterone during a critical time where the brain is supposedly masculinized in utero. The data? Germany used to have a registry of homosexuals (a practice no longer done). Turned out that those who identified themselves as homosexual were more likely to have been in utero in cities that were bombed more during WWII. More stress meant more cortisol which decreased testosterone production.

There was a theory that increased testosterone in utero increased "tomboyism" and perhaps homosexuality in females. This could be studied following females who are twins with a male twin. The male twin's testosterone flows to the female fetus, and thus may affect the female, and possibly masculinize the female brain.

Of course things I studied as a psychology major in the 90s. I'd expect the data to have advanced quite a bit. Despite everything I mentioned, there weren't any answers. Just subtle hints here and there with the data.
 
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To understand the "abnormal" we have to understand what is "normal."

I'm not sure I would call homoeroticism abnormal. That is what our society wants us to believe, but I think the curiosity at least is much more common than most would admit. Look at the Greco-Roman world. Rather than abnormal, homosexuality is just a normal variation in human societies that has always existed.
 
I think sexuality is not biological or genetic, and in fact, can see no evidence at all for that.
Odd, as there certainly have been studies showing significant genetic contribution to homosexuality, and, of course, sexual orientation in general.
There shouldn't be any logical evolutionary benefit to being gay (yes, you could make kin selection arguments...)
Huh? Of course, there is an evolutionary benefit to have as varied a gene pool in a population. The more differentiated a population is, the greater and faster its evolutionary response to environmental changes. So certainly it biologically makes perfect sense. Biological populations are not genetically monolithic.
I think the media and the gay community often frame sexuality as tied implicitly to genetics, to rationalize that gay people should be able to live how they want and have equal rights. I think they should have those rights and freedoms no matter what the correct answer is to "Why are people gay?"
Of course human rights are universal. But media or personal beliefs are not good sources for scientific accuracy. The media always mess it up in their oversimplification.
To me...sexuality is an incredibley complicated thing, and is a product of childhood experiences, natural inclinations to people, and developed familiarity with certain situations...I just don't see any biologically oriented reason.
Have you looked? PubMed is not a bad place to start.
I'd like to ask the psychiatrists, psychologists, and anyone who has had familiarity with people who have complicated sexual problems to please opine on this question....
I see no pathology, I see no unique "decision-making" process special for homosexuals as it is all simply sexuality, I see studies demonstrating genetic, social and personal experiences as leading in that direction.
Yet again, I just want to hear all honest opinions, and I do not judge anyone. I say this as an openly gay man and future-shrink *maybe*
Who you are doesn't matter to the question. In science, the data matters, the person doesn't.
 
I am an openly gay man, but there's one big difference I have with most of the gay community...

I think sexuality is not biological or genetic, and in fact, can see no evidence at all for that. There shouldn't be any logical evolutionary benefit to being gay (yes, you could make kin selection arguments...)

There are many different contributors:

1) choice -yes, some people "do" choose to perform homosexual acts for a variety of reasons
2) genetics
2.a) Environment: Genetic predispositions come in a variety of "strenghts", and depending on the strength of your predisposition social and biological environmental influences can influence sexuality.

As for there being no evolutionary benefit, that's irrelevant. Nature doesn't weed out things that "aren't beneficial", it weeds out things that are "detrimental". Considering there are hetero-,homo-, and bisexual people on this planet it's only logical to assume that there is a complex series of genetic interactions taking place which produce a variety of levels of sexuality. A bisexual person therefore can carry some "homosexual genes", but would also pass then on via heterosexual interaction.
 
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As with most complicated things, the answer is not "Nature" or "Nurture"

Just as an aside, truly all things imparted by "nurture" are still a function of nature. The degree to which genetic expression can be affected by nature is still determined entirely by your genetic makeup.
 
There shouldn't be any logical evolutionary benefit to being gay (yes, you could make kin selection arguments...)

There has been some debate about this.

When I was a psychology major, I learned data in some classes pointing out that the more densely populated an area, the higher the incidence of homosexuality. This creates an argument that homosexuality may present some community benefits if there is overpopulation.
 
There has been some debate about this.

When I was a psychology major, I learned data in some classes pointing out that the more densely populated an area, the higher the incidence of homosexuality. This creates an argument that homosexuality may present some community benefits if there is overpopulation.

Interesting, I read something similar in an anthropology book that talked about how some cultures and societies acceptance of homosexuality strongly correlated with whether the population was too high or too low in number. Food for thought?
 
Evolution primer 101:

For a stable population, the more genetic variability in can contain in any area of the genome and still be a stable population, the more responsive the population is to changes in the environment, and therefore it is more likely to survive than the other, more genetically narrow populations.

Evolution continuously pump out genetic modifications, and continuously select the most fit versions. That a stable environment generally tend to fairly early select the most fit genomic selections, that just means that not many of the changes will take hold... UNTIL the environment changes, and then it is free-for-all again, until the next equilibrium is reached.
 
There has been some debate about this.

When I was a psychology major, I learned data in some classes pointing out that the more densely populated an area, the higher the incidence of homosexuality. This creates an argument that homosexuality may present some community benefits if there is overpopulation.
I'd be interested to see that literature.

IMHO, having not seen the article, I'm biased toward the idea that there is a non-causative correlation between homosexuality and population density simply because having more people in an area increases probability of homosexual interaction. Homosexuals are more likely to accept their sexuality when they're not "the only one" and have support.
 
I'd be interested to see that literature.

IMHO, having not seen the article, I'm biased toward the idea that there is a non-causative correlation between homosexuality and population density simply because having more people in an area increases probability of homosexual interaction. Homosexuals are more likely to accept their sexuality when they're not "the only one" and have support.
As in the artificial, skewed, sharp dichotomy becomes more of a continuum. Agreed.
 
IMHO, having not seen the article, I'm biased toward the idea that there is a non-causative correlation between homosexuality and population density simply because having more people in an area increases probability of homosexual interaction. Homosexuals are more likely to accept their sexuality when they're not "the only one" and have support.

And this was debated in the class. The class was Developmental Psychobiology taught at Rutgers, by the now retired Dr. Gandelman (hope I'm remembering him. Its been years. I might be confusing him with someone else).

I also mentioned the study where homosexuality appeared to be correlated with increased stressors experienced by the mother.

One theory proposed is there is a critical stage in the development of a male where there is testosterone exposure that masculinizes the male brain while in utero to 1-drive the person to desire females, and 2-create a male personality/identity.

Cortisol as some of you may know disrupts the production of testosterone. So as I mentioned, the examiner hypothesized that women while pregnant that were stressed were more likely to have homosexual male children.

Unfortunately that study could not be replicated. It turned out the examiner was able to identify the correlation of bombing in WWII to specific German towns and the incidence of homosexuality because Germany used to have a registry of homosexuals. This practice has long since been banned because it was an invasion of privacy, and from what I understand and remember (which may be wrong--remember its been years) that the registry was an artifact from Nazi Germany, and the Germans just took some time to get rid of the law.

But taking that theory a step further, and assuming the study was on to something, several in the class debated that possibly increased stress with a pregnant woman may have an evolutionary advantage in terms of a community or family vs the individual with having homosexual children in terms of overpopulation. Humans usually compete with each other, not against other animals in the food chain. Increased stress before modern culture could have been from overcompetition with local humans. It could have made one group of humans survive better in terms of a community vs other human communities.

As for other theories (that I remember), there were studies that females born from male & female twin pairs were more tomboyish. Why? The theory is the testosterone produced by the male twin carried over to the female twin during development and masculinzed the female's brain. There actually was some data supporting this. E.g. tomboyism was measured by behaviors that male children prefer over females such as playing with male oriented toys, playing sports etc.

This lead to a further theory that male & female twin pairs may increase the odds of lesbianism in the female. However from what I remember, the examiners weren't able to measure because they did not follow the female subjects long enough.

Its all interesting, and this is one of the reasons why I feel psychologists truly have some better training in aspects we psychiatrists don't. I've never seen anything like this examined by psychiatrists. Remember we are trained to treat mental illness based on a medical model, they are trained to understand the human mind. That's a big difference. While I was a psychology major, all my training with cortisol, or oxycontin, and other hormones were with the perspective on how it affects behavior and emotions, while I never saw one psychiatrist that had that level of knowledge unless they too were trained in psychology or studied it on their own outside of a psychiatry curriculum. Don't you think that we psychiatrists could benefit from having that knowledge?

As for the overpopulation data, from what I remember this data was also present in several animal models. There also were several other negative aspects with overpopulation (as interpreted by the number of people in a given area of space). More crime, more dirtiness (pollution/garbage/sewage), higher basal rates of anxiety etc.

As mentioned above, there were several factors that could have distorted the studies. For example, a male female twin pair--with females more likely to be tomboys, that could also be explained by the female having a male twin. Maybe she played with his toys because they were as readily available as female toys, while in a lone female child, she would only have been bought female toys by her parents.
I don't know if any researchers re-examined these issues, discounted any of them, or added more to them. After all I was in college back in the mid 90s! I'm sure there's more data more now than back then.
 
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From my human sexuality class there seems to be a nature and nurture link.

If one identical twin is gay, the chance of the other twin being gay is much more likely than if they were just brothers or if one of them were adopted. The brother, however, will be more likely to be homosexual than the adopted child. This shows a genetic link. Nonetheless, an adopted individual has a higher rate of homosexuality if one of their siblings is homosexual; this shows nature.

More research for a biological base has shown that the rates of homosexuality throughout the world are almost the same everywhere (4% I think, but don't quote me on that). Furthermore, these levels seem to trace back several hundred years to when homosexuality was less acceptable by the public.

Lastly, some research has linked differences in time periods to various growth factors during development to increased rates of homosexuality.
 
...

More research for a biological base has shown that the rates of homosexuality throughout the world are almost the same everywhere (4% I think, but don't quote me on that). Furthermore, these levels seem to trace back several hundred years to when homosexuality was less acceptable by the public....

Unless you have discovered time travel, there is NO WAY that this is supported by meaningful data.
 
Unless you have discovered time travel, there is NO WAY that this is supported by meaningful data.
But, I am sure it's in a textbook. I've noticed that, even in text books (aka academic opinion pieces), authors will make claims that go largely unsubstantiated all the time.
 
But, I am sure it's in a textbook. I've noticed that, even in text books (aka academic opinion pieces), authors will make claims that go largely unsubstantiated all the time.
Yup. Textbooks are not peer-reviewed.
 
I'd be interested to see that literature.

IMHO, having not seen the article, I'm biased toward the idea that there is a non-causative correlation between homosexuality and population density simply because having more people in an area increases probability of homosexual interaction. Homosexuals are more likely to accept their sexuality when they're not "the only one" and have support.

True, at least that's how it appears. Very dense cities like Boston, SF, NYC attract gay people more simply because "different types of people" often self-select into those places.
 
I remember one textbook which had a corresponding question book, mentioned that the incidence of schizophrenia throughout history was 1%, even in ancient times. It mentioned it in one of the questions.

I got the question wrong because I reasoned that there was no way anyone could have recorded the incidence of the disorder in ancient times. Heck the formal diagnosis as it exists today didn't even exist back then.
 
There has been some debate about this.

When I was a psychology major, I learned data in some classes pointing out that the more densely populated an area, the higher the incidence of homosexuality. This creates an argument that homosexuality may present some community benefits if there is overpopulation.

not necessarily. Species and group selection is an out-moded and numerous-times unproven idea. Even in situations where there is a 'group selection'-like effect, such as the alpha taking on a role in internal or external policing, there is also an individual-level selection effect. Namely, that those who engage in this behavior that benefits the group also benefit themselves.

The higher incidence of homosexuality in more highly dense communities could be the result of rising cortisol levels suppressing testosterone levels (this happens in women too). Which would be a pathologic event.

For homosexuality to have some sort of inclusive fitness effect, there would have to be some sort of increase in reproduction for that individual's closest family members.

This isn't necessarily an impossibility. In earlier times, many communities adopted a different approach which was in effect identical. 1st son keeps the farm. second son becomes a priest. third son goes and joins the army. No splitting of land, which would have resulted in all three sons having suboptimal conditions in which to feed themselves, grow wealthy enough to attract a wife, and raise children.
 
For homosexuality to have some sort of inclusive fitness effect, there would have to be some sort of increase in reproduction for that individual's closest family members.

Perhaps, and I'm not a strong defender in any evolutionary theory on the benefits of homosexuality because of the lack of strong data.

I've noticed several who don't have children do what they can to help the children of their siblings or other relatives. This does not seem so odd when one observes primate tribes where the small number in the community (in relation to humans) makes one view them as a type of large extended family. In that sense if homosexuality did increase with increased environmental stressors, it wouldn't seem so odd for the non-reproducing primates to assist in rearing the children even if it were not theirs. There's behavior in wolves where only the dominant males and females reproduce and the other males and females help to raise the children of the dominants.

But the bottom line is the data really is weak for any genetic argument for homosexuality in terms of trying to understand it on a physiological level.

I've always believed that at least for a significant portion, homosexuality was not a choice (yes I do know some that are homosexual who disagree with that). Why? Well if it were a choice, why would one choose to be homosexual given the social prejudice one would have to face?

I'm heterosexual, and trust me, there's no choice in my case. Its not like I got aroused by women and men, and chose to be heterosexual. My life would've been a heck of a lot easier in many ways if I could choose. Trust me, I've had quite a few "dry spells" in my life where I hadn't had a date for several months--even years, and a homosexual man made a move on me----and I was not in the least interested.
 
One thing the evangelical types have never been able to explain is how sexuality in general is a choice? They cheerfully acknowledge simply "being" heterosexual, yet insist that homosexuals must be based on 100% choice. When dogmatic politics is the foundation for how personal lives are to be conducted, then it gets all messed up
 
One thing the evangelical types have never been able to explain is how sexuality in general is a choice? They cheerfully acknowledge simply "being" heterosexual, yet insist that homosexuals must be based on 100% choice. When dogmatic politics is the foundation for how personal lives are to be conducted, then it gets all messed up

Wow, we actually agree on something.
 
One thing the evangelical types have never been able to explain is how sexuality in general is a choice?

Its made me speculate that several of these types actually are homosexual or at least have homosexual tendencies, and in actuality are arguing--"hey I'm homosexual, but I chose to make myself heterosexual, you better too because I was able to do it."

I think if I lived in a culture where there was social prejudice to be heterosexual, and homosexuality was the norm, no way would I want to engage in it. (That's not meant to criticize homosexuals, but to criticize the lack of acceptance of it in society). I'd move to the Castro district of San Francisco equivalent and be straight in defiance of society.
 
Its made me speculate that several of these types actually are homosexual or at least have homosexual tendencies, and in actuality are arguing--"hey I'm homosexual, but I chose to make myself heterosexual, you better too because I was able to do it."

I think if I lived in a culture where there was social prejudice to be heterosexual, and homosexuality was the norm, no way would I want to engage in it. (That's not meant to criticize homosexuals, but to criticize the lack of acceptance of it in society). I'd move to the Castro district of San Francisco equivalent and be straight in defiance of society.

Perhaps a more interesting question is "Why the social prejudice?" Even though the loudest anti-gay voices in western society might use a religious justification, I don't think we can blame Leviticus or the Apostle Paul for a lack of social acceptance of homosexuality. As universal as homosexuality is across cultures, so too is the taboo against homosexual behavior in most situations. Where does *that* come from?
 
Perhaps a more interesting question is "Why the social prejudice?" Even though the loudest anti-gay voices in western society might use a religious justification, I don't think we can blame Leviticus or the Apostle Paul for a lack of social acceptance of homosexuality. As universal as homosexuality is across cultures, so too is the taboo against homosexual behavior in most situations. Where does *that* come from?


I think our instincts to eat, sleep and breed etc. might form unconscious values of normalcy. Though we can find so many scientific examples of ambiguous genders, and classify things as gender identity, or role, or whatever... there is a component of all of this which is not learned. Its like when someone "knows" they are going to die, though they have never died before. You know with pretty high certainty when you look at someone, what their gender is - even if they are cross-dressed and on hormones. Even if you cant pinpoint it, you know that something isn't "normal".

Sexual attraction is for reproduction. Eating is for nourishment. Sleep is for.... whatever its for. No two things about it. We humans do all three for other reasons... and because they are enjoyable. Few other species do so. But some do. I'm thinking of Jane Goodall's work as I type this. So as we engage in these behaviors as a pass-time I think the animal instinct remains.

And sure, its on a continuum. We do less or more or different of each from time to time. But when we eat clay, its a problem. When we eat ice, its because of a problem. When we sleep continuously or without the usual sequence of brain activity, its a problem. When we engage in intercourse without the intent to procreate, is it a problem? Most would say not - and we do eat non-nutritious things or sleep late on Saturday because we like to.

But again, do we eat clay because we like to, and get away with it? Do we sleep continuously because we like to and get away with it? Are either of these behaviors based at all in, or satiate the animal instincts? So why should one be motivated to be sexually attracted to the gender of the species which will provide absolutely no hope of reproduction? The neuronal connections which cause the peahen to be attracted to the tail feathers of the peacock, must be like those that cause a male to be attracted to a post pubescent woman with physical symmetry, child-bearing hips, the means to nurse the newborn.. etc.

So, though sexuality is on a continuum of normalcy, I guardedly pose the hypothesis that normal becomes abnormal when when a "vegetative" behavior, and all the vastly complicated antecedents to it becomes entirely "un-purposeful" in the survival instinct. That can go for pica, sleep disorder, or any sexual behavior which loses the painfully complicated conscious and unconscious antecedents which trace back to survival of the species.

I'm not claiming that homosexuality should be put back in the DSM. I'm saying that theres an unconscious assessment of normalcy in the human mind related to the unconscious. Perhaps the social prejudice comes from the twisted look you'd give someone who ate clay, added to the social subculture of the LGBT community. The blank stare and head-scratching becomes social prejudice. Its not just a behavior, its a culture.

I dont think we can ever come up with a unified theory of sexuality, but we can have a gestalt based on the many independent unconvincing evidences in science. Just like Punctuated Equilibrium takes bits from biology, ecology, genetics, geology, physics, oceanography... No one person can fully understand human sexuality in one lifetime. It would take a full understanding of psychology, genetics, ecology, sociology, philosophy, etc. that no one person can have. And even then you probably couldn't tie it all together, and only have a gestalt.

thoughts?
 
Perhaps a more interesting question is "Why the social prejudice?" Even though the loudest anti-gay voices in western society might use a religious justification, I don't think we can blame Leviticus or the Apostle Paul for a lack of social acceptance of homosexuality. As universal as homosexuality is across cultures, so too is the taboo against homosexual behavior in most situations. Where does *that* come from?

In Leviticus it came from the Jewish desire to sow the seed. Remember the whole don't spill your seed on the ground thing? Wasted seed is bad business in OT scripture. Classic patriarchal society focused on perpetuation of the lineage and whatnot. With the Apostle Paul, one need only look at all the homosexual prostitution of the Greco-Roman world and its wild associated vices to see what he was talking about. It seems like to me there is always an underlying social concern, if not a religious prejudice. Today, it is frequently the argument about what gays and lesbians will do to the "traditional family" and "traditional marriage." There is a societal concern (crumbling family structure in America), and gays and lesbians are used as a scapegoat with reference to that phenomenon, even when religious ideologies are not a factor. But, as I posted earlier, I do think sometimes people are resisting some secret curiosity within themselves when they vociferously oppose homosexuality. This isn't always the case, but sometimes.
 
Sexual attraction is for reproduction.

I think it only takes a run through the TV channels and a view of some modern American commercials to see we're way past this mindset. For any American to say that this view of the purpose of sex is "normal" for our society is a tongue-in-cheek response at best.
 
I think it only takes a run through the TV channels and a view of some modern American commercials to see we're way past this mindset. For any American to say that this view of the purpose of sex is "normal" for our society is a tongue-in-cheek response at best.


My point is that even though we are waaay past that mindset, our bodies, genetics, species, and other mind-independent factors are not past it. And once we exclude the mind-independent factors, the whole process takes a new and unrelated meaning.
 
My point is that even though we are waaay past that mindset, our bodies, genetics, species, and other mind-independent factors are not past it. And once we exclude the mind-independent factors, the whole process takes a new and unrelated meaning.

I actually don't believe that most of the opposition to homosexuality is related to mind-independent factors. Interestingly, though, the fact that most people feel a natural proclivity toward heterosexuality based on mind-independent factors should be evidence that a natural proclivity toward homosexuality is also largely based on mind-independent factors. These biochemical/hormonal cues are not really mind-independent either, because I believe they are dictating much of our minds with reference to erotic thought and feeling. But, I think you have to separate a discussion of proclivities from one of prejudices. The prejudices are mostly mind-dependent. We are taught to be prejudiced. There have been societies that have been very open-minded toward homosexuality. Some Native American societies come to mind. These societies' natural proclivities (mind-independent) weren't any different, but their prejudices (mind-dependent) were.
 
The higher incidence of homosexuality in more highly dense communities could be the result of rising cortisol levels suppressing testosterone levels (this happens in women too). Which would be a pathologic event.


I really really doubt this. Then you should see similar spill-over in very high stress fields of gay men and homosexual activities. I really just believe that denser communities attract different types of people and are very gay-culturesque and have no reverse impact on biology. If you could provide some empirical evidence for this though, I'd be receptive of it.
 
I really really doubt this. Then you should see similar spill-over in very high stress fields of gay men and homosexual activities. I really just believe that denser communities attract different types of people and are very gay-culturesque and have no reverse impact on biology. If you could provide some empirical evidence for this though, I'd be receptive of it.

No, not really..... High physiologic stress (which may or may not be perceived by the subject) where cortisol, testosterone, etc. become markedly elevated... so much so that the target physiological response happens... and in this case, in utero. Point being, that being in a "high stress field" like a stock trader won't make him homosexual. Being born to a mother who knew that at least 2 lives were in danger for 9 months - that just might.

We already know that babies who were born to mothers who had significant physiologic stress have some differences. Especially in the case of drug addicted mothers, they tend to have lower incidences of neonatal respiratory distress, because the mother's cortisol matures the baby's lungs faster. Theres interesting research involving malnutrition in the mother, which generates metabolic abnormalities in the baby. Both of these are actually protective mechanisms for the newborn.

Similarly, extreme stress and overpopulation may "turn on" the factors that lead to homosexuality.

Just as we are hard wired to increase the numbers of our species, we are hard wired to "cull the weak". Ugly or sickly people don't procreate. A deer that is wounded will leave its herd, wander off into the woods and not eat in order to hasten its own death. A cancer patient who has depression will also withdraw from friends and family, will not eat, sleep, or bathe, and so hasten their own death.

Back to the point. You're confusing densely populated cities with overpopulation. Nobody argues the Greenwich Village is overpopulated and thus cropping up with homosexual people. We understand that a) people are moving over there because its safer and accepting and b) larger cities are more accepting of things in general. We are talking about overpopulation where the people outnumber the resources needed for survival i.e parts of southeast Asia and Africa. Its in these populations where it's hypothesized that the metabolic abnormalities - diabetes, obesity, as well as homosexuality are genetically favored. The fat gay diabetic men will survive a famine longer than their skinny straight healthy friends with 3 mouths to feed at home. And in the grand scheme of things, less babies in the future means supply and demand can even out.

It aint about San Fran, is about the whole world.
 
"The higher incidence of homosexuality in more highly dense communities..."

Big cities draw in gay folk. They don't create them by some kind of metamorphosis. You go where you are likely to fit in.
 
Perhaps a more interesting question is "Why the social prejudice?" Even though the loudest anti-gay voices in western society might use a religious justification, I don't think we can blame Leviticus or the Apostle Paul for a lack of social acceptance of homosexuality. As universal as homosexuality is across cultures, so too is the taboo against homosexual behavior in most situations. Where does *that* come from?
How many of these cultures are not based on Abrahamic religions?
 
Christian, Jewish, Muslim religions all share the same foundation. Not sure how much of a serious taboo that homosexuality is outside these cultures.
 
How many of these cultures are not based on Abrahamic religions?

I would say you're right that the taboo is significantly lessened outside of the Abrahamic lineage, at least from what I've heard. Then the argument becomes more about stifling procreation, assuming that it is a society that wants to procreate. I guess all societies that I've ever heard of have viewed it as somewhat bizarre, but not with outright hostility necessarily. Again, I'm thinking of some Native American examples, in which men would sometimes choose to live with another man, behaving as a woman, and it was accepted. In a polygamous society, it wasn't impossible for a man to have real wives in addition to a "pretend wife" (ie, another dude). There were also monogamous relationships along these lines. Obviously, this was abnormal, but I recall it being documented as happening. The Europeans dubbed them "berdaches."
 
I would say you're right that the taboo is significantly lessened outside of the Abrahamic lineage, at least from what I've heard. Then the argument becomes more about stifling procreation, assuming that it is a society that wants to procreate. I guess all societies that I've ever heard of have viewed it as somewhat bizarre, but not with outright hostility necessarily. Again, I'm thinking of some Native American examples, in which men would sometimes choose to live with another man, behaving as a woman, and it was accepted. In a polygamous society, it wasn't impossible for a man to have real wives in addition to a "pretend wife" (ie, another dude). There were also monogamous relationships along these lines. Obviously, this was abnormal, but I recall it being documented as happening. The Europeans dubbed them "berdaches."
And they were actually seen as some form of medicine men as well.
 
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