ABPM if Already ABFAS Qualified

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I am ABFAS qualified (both). Graduating this year. Is it worthwhile to do ABPM? I’m considering doing it for the sake of having it and being “certified”.

Also what are the study resource recommendations? I’m assuming it’s not as surgical as ABFAS so I would have to change my studying resources for this exam.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Is it worthwhile? In a word, yes. For all the 💩 we give LCR, it's useful in terms of insurance/hospital credentialing and I like much of their advocacy. The CAQs are still nonsense.

In terms of study resources, let's just say that the test is harder than APMLE part 3.

 

[GreenHousePub]

In terms of study resources, let's just say that the test is harder than APMLE part 3.

But not by much

 

[heybrother]

I was ABFAS qual when I graduated. Covid happened rapidly and I wondered when the world would normalize again. I got ABPM because it seemed like a good insurance policy ie. didn't know when the OR would start up again. Also it was possible to do the ABPM qual and cert simultaneously. I don't regret it, but its a bunch of extra money to pay out of your own pocket if your job isn't paying for it. If you get ABPM but are still pursuing ABFAS certification you'll view any extra work you have to do to main cert as a nuisance.

The simple truth is - the best thing you can probably do is actually get your ABFAS as fast as possible so you can stop logging cases. Sometimes during residency people would do that thing where they stopped logging because they are busy or whatever and then their director busts their chops and says log your damn cases. You can literally stop logging for ABFAS as soon as you pass. You could theoretically stop logging cases year 1-2 if you get it. Or you can be years out having to log hundreds and hundreds of hammertoes and plantar fascial release and crap because the boot lickers at ABFAS want everything because their process is dog ****.

 

[Feli]

Is it worthwhile? In a word, yes. For all the 💩 we give LCR, it's useful in terms of insurance/hospital credentialing and I like much of their advocacy. The CAQs are still nonsense.

In terms of study resources, let's just say that the test is harder than APMLE part 3.

I would agree with this:

Do ABPM in the early years after residency (to be 'board cert' for some insurances), then drop it once ABFAS cert (or keep it if you like or if hospital pays for it). Bear in mind it's no slam dunk that one who is ABFAS qual will get cert, so, there's also that. When you're done with ABPM, it may not be easy to cut ties (they might try to make it hard to quit and try to hold onto 'members' and keep dues coming in... pretty sad). You can put bank stop payment if they won't let you out... no joke.

In terms of hospitals/surgery, ABPM usually does nothing that ABFAS qual does not do (any chief of podiatry in charge of surgery privileging typically knows ABFAS qual/cert is hard/surgical test and ABPM is basically a 100% pass and that their cert can basically be found in a Cracker Jack box).

ABFAS policy allows promoting BQ status now (historically only allowed BC), so there is no longer any advantage in that realm either.

However, it's not really accurate to say ABPM is harder than anything. It's a joke.
ABPM board cert test is easier than APMLE (hence pass rates are even higher for ABPM). Both national pod boards and ABPM are a sure pass without any study unless someone was really bottom of the pod school class and a very bad test taker (and they'd still pass it with a bit of study and retake). If you do want to study, just go through PI manual or whatever will help you for ABFAS also. Anyone who passed ABFAS will pass ABPM without issue. ABPM's whole existence is just being an alternate board hoping to get some money from those who can't pass ABFAS... that is why the allow 8yrs to get cert (when ABFAS does 7yr), ABPM always ultra-high pass rate, now CAQs to try for more money, etc.

 

[LossToFollowUp]

You should get ABPM certified. You want to make sure insurances don't try to turn the board situation against you. Decide if you want to keep ABPM after you are cert in ABFAS.

The test is is joke. I literally did nothing for prep.

 

[heybrother]

I removed the words "Foot and Ankle Surgeon" from my linkedin profile.

Forefoot is life.
Plantar fasciitis is life.

If ABPM is good enough in your area to do what you want - embrace it.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I am ABFAS qualified (both). Graduating this year. Is it worthwhile to do ABPM? I’m considering doing it for the sake of having it and being “certified”.

Also what are the study resource recommendations? I’m assuming it’s not as surgical as ABFAS so I would have to change my studying resources for this exam.

You don't need to study. You will pass so the ABPM army becomes bigger and more powerful.

 

[deleted285117]

You will pass so the ABPM army becomes bigger and more powerful.

 

[Feli]

I removed the words "Foot and Ankle Surgeon" from my linkedin profile.

Forefoot is life.
Plantar fasciitis is life.
...

Ya, definitely want all keywords in the name or website... podiatry, foot and ankle, podiatry, surgery, ingrown, whatever.

...and WTF is a linkedin profile? Isn't that for ppl looking for employee jobs? 🙂

You don't need to study. You will pass so the ABPM army becomes bigger and more powerful.

Indeed.

 

[heybrother]

Ya, definitely want all keywords in the name or website... podiatry, foot and ankle, podiatry, surgery, ingrown, whatever.

...and WTF is a linkedin profile? Isn't that for ppl looking for employee jobs? 🙂


Indeed.

Your google profile can tell you how people are finding you. The words "podiatrist townname" and "townname podiatrist" account for essentially 95% of searches. And yeah linkedin is is a joke.

Can't remember who posted this but I cried laughing.

 

[PODIATRYCRAZE]

Just here to expose some more lies for any residents and students reading this forum. ABPM pass rate is on par with other medical specialties and is not 99-100% like insinuated above.

Podiatry ABPM 85-88%: https://podiatryboard.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/2022_June_Newsletter.pdf

Orthopedic surgery ABOS 91%: Exam Stats | ABOS

General surgery ABS 95%: ABS Qualifying Exam: Everything You Need to Know to Pass

“Foot and ankle surgery” 66-82% : Exam Pass Rates

Facts over feelings. Said it before, and I will say it again. If you take ur ABFAS CBPS practice exam and show it to ur medical colleagues, they will laugh in your face and tell you what a joke your profession is. Has the exam improved over the past couple years? Yes. But it is still a terrible exam.

 

[Hybrocure]

Just here to expose some more lies for any residents and students reading this forum. ABPM pass rate is on par with other medical specialties and is not 99-100% like insinuated above.

Podiatry ABPM 85-88%: https://podiatryboard.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/2022_June_Newsletter.pdf

Orthopedic surgery ABOS 91%: Exam Stats | ABOS

General surgery ABS 95%: ABS Qualifying Exam: Everything You Need to Know to Pass

“Foot and ankle surgery” 66-82% : Exam Pass Rates

Facts over feelings. Said it before, and I will say it again. If you take ur ABFAS CBPS practice exam and show it to ur medical colleagues, they will laugh in your face and tell you what a joke your profession is. Has the exam improved over the past couple years? Yes. But it is still a terrible exam.

ABFAS is made more difficult than ABPM so ABFAS cert pods can gatekeep and push out competition in their area who aren’t ABFAS cert. This isn’t an exam for competency it’s an exam against your peers.

This trend started when the same predatory owners we all talk about got grandfathered into the ABFAS cert and trickled down from there.

Everyone hates ABFAS cert til they become ABFAS cert then they say screw everyone else who isn’t ABFAS cert.

The reality is if you’ve been on staff at a hospital for years and have logs and haven’t rocked the boat and done bad work why should it matter if you are ABPM or ABFAS?

 

[HardRoadPaved]

Everyone hates ABFAS cert til they become ABFAS cert then they say screw everyone else who isn’t ABFAS cert.

 

[Hybrocure]

View attachment 386280

Exactly. lol

 

[dtrack22]

View attachment 386280

There are a few folks on social media that slob all over the proverbial knob of ABFAS after passing in their final year of eligibility. They spend 6 years complaining about the gatekeeping function of ABFAS and then start touting its superiority once they finally pass. It’s sad, and laughable all at the same time. Only in Podiatry, where an inferiority complex is standard.

 

[Hybrocure]

There are a few folks on social media that slob all over the proverbial knob of ABFAS after passing in their final year of eligibility. They spend 6 years complaining about the gatekeeping function of ABFAS and then start touting its superiority once they finally pass. It’s sad, and laughable all at the same time. Only in Podiatry, where an inferiority complex is standard.

Few folks on social media? I think you mean the majority of ABFAS certified podiatrists in the modern age lol

 

[podiatryresident123@]

Does taking ABPM in your final year of residency count toward certification procsss or it only count if you take it after residency?

 

[MicroPod]

I’m pretty sure you have to pass after finishing residency for ABPM. Final year resident ABFAS counts toward passing, though they make you pay to convert your passing exam scores to be official for some unknown reason… oh yeah they want money

 

[blessed.pod]

Is there a conspiracy on why its so hard to pass ABFAS? My buddies who were top of their class and at very respectable residencies were only able to pass 1 of 4 sections of the ABFAS exam

 

[wakaflocka88]

Is there a conspiracy on why its so hard to pass ABFAS? My buddies who were top of their class and at very respectable residencies were only able to pass 1 of 4 sections of the ABFAS exam

Board Wizards. The test itself is not hard.

The difficult and stupid as hell part is the case collectio and review part.

 

[Hybrocure]

Is there a conspiracy on why its so hard to pass ABFAS? My buddies who were top of their class and at very respectable residencies were only able to pass 1 of 4 sections of the ABFAS exam

I still think the exam is poorly written but a more important thing people don’t touch on is the wide berth of training and opinions of different attendings and authors influencing what is right and wrong in practicing podiatry.

You have so many podiatrists wanting to do stuff differently to be special and then write about it. And it all gets debated to death. Post op WB protocols, surgical indications on what surgery is best for what, DVT prevention, etc.

One doc will WB a lapidus day of another will do weeks of NWB..we have no standard for most of podiatry. Don’t even get me started on limb salvage for what’s right and wrong and in between.

And all of this can vary widely depending what program you’re at. What part of the country you practice in. What school you went to. Etc. And who makes these questions for ABFAS? Different attendings all over the country who do stuff differently.

 

[MicroPod]

I failed RRA didactic (only one I never passed) all 3 in training years despite being one of the top students in school. I didn’t study at all though and put basically no effort into it. I don’t think I’ll be doing the type of cases needed for RRA cert anyways. Planning to try for ABFAS Foot only at this point.

 

[heybrother]

As a resident years ago I passed all 4 parts for the ABFAS qualifier on the first try. Someone gave me a login for Board Wizards - I didn't know it existed - and I did 15-20 cases max. The written foot questions I thought were very reasonable. I didn't think the Board Wizard didactic questions helped with this at all (foot or rearfoot). The written ABFAS foot questions were better than any of the resident in-service questions I had seen through the years. I actually think some of the complaints we make through time about board questions through time refer to the in-service exams where the questions were more highly variable or opinionated. I found the RRA questions challenging - they were definitely harder than the foot questions. I had read and studied a lot for the exam and the defining feeling I felt was - the material I read/studied didn't match the material I was tested on. Like if I told you - tell me 10 facts about a common rearfoot procedure - none of those 10 things would have been a question on the RRA didactic exam I took. But I passed. CBPS cases didn't seem unreasonable and Board Wizards did feel like a reasonable method for mentally preparing and planning.

Fast forward a few years and I'm taking CBPS. I did all of the Board Wizard cases. I spent a lot of time going through menus and finding options from the menus to build plans of attack. ie. I'm not going to miss a lymph node exam, or an opportunity to biopsy, or a "pack open". I took the Foot/RRA CBPS - and missed 2 days of work - I didn't find it challenging at all. The cases just seemed fun. I felt super prepared. On the original exams (years before, where I passed) I'd have cases where I'd start to get worried about finding relevant PE exam findings ie. I know there's a problem, but I can't find a PE finding that correlates to it ie. "where to touch". Not this time. I somewhat felt like the exam had improved the PE stuff so that I never fell for the non-specifics anymore or they'd been removed or something. I'd be like - there's really no real true indication for advanced imagery but let's see what the system says - and "bam" - the MRI of course shows some secret surprise finding that makes no sense but there it is. You had to order it or you'd fail the cases because there's no way you'd have picked the right procedure based on the the bizarre calcaneal / talar whatever lesion. So I'm findings all the secret MRI/CT findings that the x-ray didn't show but "maybe" the PE hinted at. And then I ****ing failed everything. Like - I failed labs. How do you fail labs. I literally thought - somehow they've assigned someone else my score because I destroyed that test. It was not hard.

I was beyond ****ing furious, but I thought - this is what ABFAS does. They ****ing cheat people. You have to take their test over and over against so they can get their money. I don't normally believe in conspiracies, but that's how I felt because on the way out I told the adminstrator at the door - lata bro, cya never. I thought that was the last board exam I'd ever taken in my life. I don't believe for a second you have to do some sort of amazing residency to pass the CBPS.

So - after fuming for awhile, I took CBPS again. And I didn't do any real prep. No Board Wizards. The day of, I just did the ABFAS practice exams through a couple of times. And you know what - they are dog****. Not kidding. Really go through them and look at the answers. I posted this before but decided to remove it so as not to dox myself. There's stuff in the imagery on some of the cases that absolutely has to be treated that isn't include on their points menus ie. diagnoses, things that needs treatment etc. There's inconsistencies from exam to exam in their practice set where things get you points in one but not in the other. It would not surprise me at all if that sort of thing is reflected in the scoring of people's actual exams because these are sloppy, sloppy podiatrists. There's a video where they claim they spend months writing practice questions. I can immediately show you an embarrassingly bad screw-up in the ABFAS practice exam.

And so for the ultimate laugh - I found my second CBPS take very challenging, walked out feeling sick - and passed.

 

[DYK343]

Written standardized exams are written standardized exams. A lot of that is test taking skills. Its calibered to your % answered correct though. So if the questions are really really easy youre probably failing. If hard then youre passing. At least it used to be that way.

The CBPS is dumb and a crapshoot if you click what they want. Always start with imaging and shotgun images. Then go backwards.

Where a lot of people fail is the case review. This is 100% on the applicant if they are a decent surgeon and failing case review. Before you do your first case on your own outside residency you need to sit down and read what ABFAS wants. Write books for notes. Reinforce it with each follow up note. Explain why you left a screw thats 4 threads too long. Document complications and how you will fix them. Dont let another DPM scrub into your case (auto fail) with you. Etc. Case review is just being prepared and reading what they want ahead of time.

Where i see people go wrong is they get lazy with case logging. It sucks but if you dont log every case - even a toe amp at 2am - you fail.

 

[heybrother]

Written standardized exams are written standardized exams. A lot of that is test taking skills. Its calibered to your % answered correct though. So if the questions are really really easy youre probably failing. If hard then youre passing. At least it used to be that way.

You're referring to the didactic being "adapative" which they state it is - but there's almost no information provided about it other than that it happens and that it causes variations in question difficulty. Makes you wonder - what's the basis for a question being determined to be harder? Historic test taking by people who already passed the exam or who knows.

 

[Hybrocure]

Written standardized exams are written standardized exams. A lot of that is test taking skills. Its calibered to your % answered correct though. So if the questions are really really easy youre probably failing. If hard then youre passing. At least it used to be that way.

The CBPS is dumb and a crapshoot if you click what they want. Always start with imaging and shotgun images. Then go backwards.

Where a lot of people fail is the case review. This is 100% on the applicant if they are a decent surgeon and failing case review. Before you do your first case on your own outside residency you need to sit down and read what ABFAS wants. Write books for notes. Reinforce it with each follow up note. Explain why you left a screw thats 4 threads too long. Document complications and how you will fix them. Dont let another DPM scrub into your case (auto fail) with you. Etc. Case review is just being prepared and reading what they want ahead of time.

Where i see people go wrong is they get lazy with case logging. It sucks but if you dont log every case - even a toe amp at 2am - you fail.

I don’t trust a single podiatrist I’ve ever met to make tests in such a way. And I’ve met a lot of the heavy hitters. Scrubbed w many and know them well as people.

A lot of people just don’t want to admit the process is stupid. Everyone who has done ABFAS absolutely hated doing it. Those who passed lord it above everyone else since they got into the club but it still tortured them in the back of their mind.

Doesn’t change the fact it sucks lol

 

[deleted1162946]

ABPM writes better test questions than ABFAS. (Although some of the content is annoying old school podiatry stuff). Anyone who has taken both knows this. It’s funny because abfas acts like their superior.

 

[msion]

Where i see people go wrong is they get lazy with case logging. It sucks but if you dont log every case - even a toe amp at 2am - you fail.

Agree on trying to log every case. But they won't fail you if you forgot to log some toe amps.

My own case log and the hospital case log had a discrepancy of 16 cases. All I&Ds or toe amps that I forgot to log. They still passed me on the case audit.

But I imagine this would be a bigger problem if you didn't log a bunion/trauma case.

 

[DYK343]

You're referring to the didactic being "adapative" which they state it is - but there's almost no information provided about it other than that it happens and that it causes variations in question difficulty. Makes you wonder - what's the basis for a question being determined to be harder? Historic test taking by people who already passed the exam or who knows.

Yes thats the word I was looking for. At one point during the exam a question was equivalent to "what is a dorsalis pedis" and I really got nervous. Still passed haha.

 

[DYK343]

I don’t trust a single podiatrist I’ve ever met to make tests in such a way. And I’ve met a lot of the heavy hitters. Scrubbed w many and know them well as people.

A lot of people just don’t want to admit the process is stupid. Everyone who has done ABFAS absolutely hated doing it. Those who passed lord it above everyone else since they got into the club but it still tortured them in the back of their mind.

Doesn’t change the fact it sucks lol

Not denying this.

But next time youre in the OR ask your anesthesia MD their thoughts on their board certification and get ready for a wild ride.

Its a party trick I've learned over the years.

Get ready for them to put down their phones and b!tch for the entirety of your bunion.

 

[DYK343]

Agree on trying to log every case. But they won't fail you if you forgot to log some toe amps.

Read the rules. Didnt test it. Passed.

 

[Feli]

The point of abfas case logs audit is just to check if candidate is making stuff up (to be eligible for board cert sooner) or trying to omit stuff (hide bad outcomes on ORIF or recons).

They don't care if you miss some stuff they're not going to pull anyways (i&d, soft tissue stuff, amp).

 

[heybrother]

What if your bunion goes so badly that you have to amp it 😉

One of my favorite stories

-Older diabetic lady. Bizarre hallux malposition. Amputated 2nd toe.
-Been coming to the practice for years for nails.
-Founder retires and I inherit her. I'm doing my yearly "you're a high risk diabetic" speech and I'm like "well, you've already had a toe amputated so you know how dangerous diabetic infections can be".
-Patient - "Oh, I've never had a diabetic foot infection. Dr. Founder-of-your-clinic horribly botched my bunion and hammertoe surgery and we had to amputate the toe because it was going so poorly. I wasn't even diabetic at the time."

"...why did you keep coming here" was on the tip of my tongue.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Is there a conspiracy on why its so hard to pass ABFAS? My buddies who were top of their class and at very respectable residencies were only able to pass 1 of 4 sections of the ABFAS exam

Maybe because they were taught dogma in their residencies, instead of what's tested on the boards. We'll see if they are arrogant enough to keep failing ABFAS or if they can relearn what's tested.

Or if they will do a fellowship and double down on the arrogance

 

[Feli]

Is there a conspiracy on why its so hard to pass ABFAS? My buddies who were top of their class and at very respectable residencies were only able to pass 1 of 4 sections of the ABFAS exam

It is a failing of many podiatry residencies... they don't do much board prep and teach the exams. This is even true at some residencies that are fairly good for surgery. They just want "helpers".... not so much people to truly teach. Unless the senior residents take it upon themselves to have academics and board prep and quiz the juniors/students, it can be ugly for didactic results.

MD and DO residencies are all at academic centers, all have board prep. They take in-training and discuss them, learn from them. You really don't see this large fail rate.

Podiatry residency is a hodge podge mix of some good academic centers, some that let pod do a lot, some where pod does little, many at VAs (which would never be adequate for MD/DO program sponsor hospital), tiny hospitals, big hospitals, everything inbetween.

So, basically, as a DPM, take it upon yourself early and often to study regularly, prep for ABFAS. That's just how it is. Teach your juniors. Organize book review, journal club, etc. Common knowledge.

 

[PODIATRYCRAZE]

Does taking ABPM in your final year of residency count toward certification procsss or it only count if you take it after residency?

Final year does not count. Only after graduation it counts

 

[MicroPod]

When doing off rotations such as internal medicine they have some form of academics basically every day, often times board prep type stuff. We had academics only once a week as a podiatry residency. I rotated at programs that did some form of academics multiple times a week.

 

[PeaJay]

It is a failing of many podiatry residencies... they don't do much board prep and teach the exams. This is even true at some residencies that are fairly good for surgery. They just want "helpers".... not so much people to truly teach. Unless the senior residents take it upon themselves to have academics and board prep and quiz the juniors/students, it can be ugly for didactic results.

MD and DO residencies are all at academic centers, all have board prep. They take in-training and discuss them, learn from them. You really don't see this large fail rate.

Podiatry residency is a hodge podge mix of some good academic centers, some that let pod do a lot, some where pod does little, many at VAs (which would never be adequate for MD/DO program sponsor hospital), tiny hospitals, big hospitals, everything inbetween.

So, basically, as a DPM, take it upon yourself early and often to study regularly, prep for ABFAS. That's just how it is. Teach your juniors. Organize book review, journal club, etc. Common knowledge.

Feli is spot on.

In my experience, most residents from academic medical centers do not have quite the struggles of passing the didactic portion of boards. Academic centers often have academic departments with office staff to help organize M&M, grand rounds, book club, journal club, wet lab, saw bones. This is on top of industry events/labs. When the academics are forced it is easier to pass exams. This is on top of external rotations that are more than shadowing for a couple hours.