Abuse from Surgery Intern

[FutureOncSurgeon]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

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[MadRadLad]

Talk to your course directors. There are some people like this and this is likely not the first time something has surfaced. At the very least they should not take into account that resident's evals in your grade.

Edit - I will echo others' comments that what you are describing sounds pretty par for the course, my advice was moreso for if there is a real malignancy aimed from a resident. Otherwise you should be expecting to get pimped and receive constructive criticism. Don't take it personally, keep your chin up and use it as motivation to improve on you deficits.

 

[deleted480308]

Pimping happens, it's a teaching method

It's not unprofessional to tell you that you aren't performing up to par. It stings like hell but your eval is your eval and it's their job to let you know how you are doing

I'm saying this as someone who had a poor performance on surgery....and was told so. You need to toughen up

 

[UGA Non Trad]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

It might just be me, but I would not consider anything you described as "abuse".

 

[Lexicon0]

You should be expected to get pimped in the OR regardless of what case or who you are scrubbing in with -this isn't really abuse. Honestly if you're on a surgery rotation and scrubbing in you should, at the bare minimum, have an understanding of: 1. indications for a procedure 2. Contraindications for procedure 3. Intraop complications of procedure 4. Post-op complications of procedure 5. Basic anatomy. He also asked to talk to you alone after rounds, didn't proceed to call you out in front of your peers. If anything sounds like your classmates are the ones being unprofessional by laughing at a peer that is struggling.

Your interactions with him, while not ideal, sound relatively benign. You'll have a lot more experiences like this third year and honestly the best advice I can give you is to put your head down and grind through.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

This is surgery. Pimping and such is part of the deal. Try not to take it personally. If you have trouble dealing with this, you will have issues in residency, which is much worse...growing a thicker skin will do you some good. Your classmates, on the other hand, sound like jerks.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

So it's entirely possible that this resident is malignant, and it's just not coming through in your description...but a few thoughts:

1. Asking the indications for an operation is not malignant. Personally if a student doesn't know those things when they scrub with me at this point, I just flat out tell them that they are not meeting expectations. I don't pimp further because there is no point - they've already revealed to me that they aren't prepared, and anything further is unlikely to be productive.

2. You say you are interested in surgery, and specifically in surgical oncology. Why? What has drawn you to those fields? TBH if you tell me that and you can't demonstrate it with either your prior experience and/or preparation, I'm going to doubt the sincerity of said aspirations.

3. Dismissing things out of hand as "not stuff you should know after Step 1" is not going to be a productive argument. Your role as an MS3 is to transition into the clinical environment.

4. Why are you getting in at 3:45? What are you doing during this time? It sounds as if you are struggling...but there is little to be gained by just showing up early if you are undirected in your efforts at that time. Working hard for the sake of working isn't benefiting anyone. Now this can equally be blamed on your residents/attendings if they aren't giving you adequate attention.

5. Your resident asked you to discuss issues in private and give you feedback. That's exactly what they should do if there is a performance issue.

 

[jurisburger]

Pimping + telling you in private you're not performing up to scratch is harsh but unfortunately not really mistreatment if it's true. But depending on what this resident is saying to other people about you behind your back...that might be a different story and sounds unprofessional to me.

 

[LoGo]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

.... I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this....

Wait, what?? 3:45 am? There's no need for that.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Wait, what?? 3:45 am? There's no need for that.

That's about the time I had to wake up for surgery (actually a little later) I hated that crap.

 

[LoGo]

That's about the time I had to wake up for surgery (actually a little later) I hated that crap.

Sure but OP is saying they are at the hospital at that time, not wake up time. I don't think I was ever at the hospital earlier than 5:45, meaning no wake up earlier than 4:30, and that was neurosurgery (mind you ortho only gave me an extra 15 min of sleep).

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Sure but OP is saying they are at the hospital at that time, not wake up time. I don't think I was ever at the hospital earlier than 5:45, meaning no wake up earlier than 4:30, and that was neurosurgery (mind you ortho only gave me an extra 15 min of sleep).

Damn, when I was on my neurosurgery rotation, I had to come in super early because we started rounds at 5 AM.

That's why I'm not a neurosurgery resident.

 

[LoGo]

Damn, when I was on my neurosurgery rotation, I had to come in super early because we started rounds at 5 AM.

That's why I'm not a neurosurgery resident.

That's punishing. Only zombies have an interest in brains at 5 am.

 

[Localnative]

"On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious."

not a figment of the past, general surgery residency is still militaristic, starch colored and down right nasty in some upper tier programs (my personal experience being one in the Midwest circa 2008). It behooves you to develop a thick skin and remain headstrong. Although you may feel humiliated, mistreated, singled out etc , turn that **** around and see it as constructive criticism. Smile and nod. Show this resident and your fellow med students that you are teflon.

Don't play the victim. And be careful using words like "abuse" on this forum. During my six years of residency, myself and most of the residents in my program were under constant threat of suspension of OR privileges or dismissal, with daily brow beating from upper levels and faculty. Yes, its not right. Yes it feels like complete **** in the face of painful sleep deprivation. However I did toughen up and it prepared me for the rigors of private practice (hostile patients, threat of litigation, ungodly hours spent cleaning up another clinician's mess, blah blah blah). Its a jungle out there my friend.

 

[mw18]

OP, I don't think this constitutes "abuse" and it really isn't unprofessional behavior with the exception of talking about you behind your back (if it's true). But your post is pretty specific, particularly in regards to the elective time and whatnot so I would consider editing it.

 

[Dwan]

Those questions you were pimped on seem like the bare minimum of what every med student should know before heading into the OR, especially by the second week. It's not step 1 content, you're supposed to learn a lot of new things this year, and you do that by preparing at least the basics for each case (knowing why they are doing the procedure, common complications etc). People pimp to make sure you understand what's important, especially since you are someone interested in going into surgery. It sucks messing up the first time, and many of us do, but now you know what to do for the next OR, so it shouldn't be as big an issue anymore. You'll get better at it - dont be offended by critique, it's how you improve.

 

[Tenk]

Welcome to surgeons. Have fun doing that for 6+ years.

 

[TRPMinus]

Tired of this politically correct BS about "mistreatment" and "abuse". At my school if you disagree with someone in class and tell them they're wrong they can pretty much file against you for "mistreatment". It really takes away from those who are suffering actual abuse and need a voice. I wish some of the snowflakes in my generation would knock this **** off.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

You need to build a thicker skin and keep a stiff upper lip. The only reason this person is bothering you is because you are allowing him to do so.

He means nothing...unless you give him meaning.

There are many like him who prey on the apparently weak, like yourself, in healthcare. It's just the way it is, but especially egregious in surgery and surgical sub specialties. What you describe is your stereotypical douche bag surgery resident/intern, but not anything "illegal."

Are you sure you want to go into this field? This might be your first real test.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

Having been through surgery training, I've had my share of difficult personalities. What you describe isn't abuse. Based on your description, you don't have the mindset to succeed in surgery. You seem to think too highly of your effort, too negatively of those around you, and have a victim mentality. These are all nonstarters.

You've gotten some good advice here, both about maybe changing your perspective and coming prepared for cases and rounds.

Good news: it's early in the year and you have a lot to learn and can improve drastically. Almost nothing at this point will close doors.

 

[Domperidone]

Sounds like you got off on the wrong foot It's hard to get rid of a target once there. You have to work twice as hard to redeem yourself.

If it's obviously not working out (personality clash) - I agree with what was said early. talk to your course coordinator or find a student to swap with. And talk to close friends about it, get it out. if it's evident taht the resident doesn't want you either, no point in both of you being miserable.

That said..
I agree with some of what's been said above. Pimping is part of surgical teaching (it's part of a lot of rotations/fields, but particularly this one).

Generally, it comes from a place of good intent. The ones that are not interested in teaching you - will ignore you. And you will get nothing out of this. (Or where they figure there's erm..no hope/point for you during a particular session. don't be a lost cause either)

Also, what did they tell you guys your first week on surg? Did they tell you the expectations? And what were they?

Prior to going to the OR, you should find the list the day before. You read up a bit on the cases. then find the patient. You look up their file. You see the patient, take a brief history and examine them - because they often have signs (interesting ones you should learn) before they get the surgery that fixes the problem.

See the investigations that helped confirm the problem, and read up about the surgery, read the anatomy. what's the purpose.

The reward is essentially attention from the surgeons. the good ones know how to "pimp" you in a way that you wont' forget and that you can sense is well meaning. and then you don't have to spend as much time in textbooks for exams. the knowledge is there. the textbook was your case/patient and the surgeon building on that foundation you set up. It's not like they'll always do this, or have time. Some do ignore you. but always go prepared. Or keep sneaky notes in your scrub pocket during down times.

Based on what you wrote -

We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy.

How bored did you look?
Also, how much did you know about the case or literally, did you walk into it blind? I mean..never walk into an OR without knowing who the patient is and why they're having that particular surgery. Or do a bit of prereading at least just before for like..10 mins on your phone about the relevant anatomy and the indications for surgery. And brush through the file for 5 mins.

try not to look bored.. :S

 

[sliceofbread136]

Sure but OP is saying they are at the hospital at that time, not wake up time. I don't think I was ever at the hospital earlier than 5:45, meaning no wake up earlier than 4:30, and that was neurosurgery (mind you ortho only gave me an extra 15 min of sleep).

Ya I get that, I'm only reveling in my past misery. Rounds were at 4:45-5:00 and I had to drive half an hour to the VA. I wanted to shoot myself

 

[Big Bad Byron]

why do people even like surgery it seems dreadful, cutting open bodies under constant scrutiny

 

[Domperidone]

why do people even like surgery it seems dreadful, cutting open bodies under constant scrutiny

The joy of playing with peoples' insides?

Or the:

Or I dunno. Lol.
People are just weird sometimes?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

why do people even like surgery it seems dreadful, cutting open bodies under constant scrutiny

Because you get to fix things with your own hands, rather than waiting for medications to work.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Because you get to fix things with your own hands, rather than waiting for medications to work.

A chance to cut is a chance to heal/cure.

 

[sliceofbread136]

why do people even like surgery it seems dreadful, cutting open bodies under constant scrutiny

I think you need to have a certain personality for it

 

[dr zaius]

Because you get to fix things with your own hands, rather than waiting for medications to work.

I get something akin to a runner's high when I'm getting destroyed by consults/in and out of the OR. Also that feeling of accomplishment when you finally leave the hospital is like nothing else.

I prefer the scrutiny and perform better under it. People seem to fall into 2 camps- those that take the criticism without seeing it as a personal attack, and those that focus on the personal (perceived or real) part and shut down. Most attendings will chew you out when you deserve it and move on. Rarely is there a grudge or passive aggressive BS.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

[DBV]

Those things are standard. Grow thicker skin it will serve you well. Sucks you have it so early as it took me a couple rotations to get my feet under me as well. You should ask your fellow students for help and see what others are doing. Also asking why you're doing a surgery is something you should absolutely know. And if you can't come up with a single reason for removing a foley youre pretty slow.

 

[WingedOx]

The joy of playing with peoples' insides?

Or the:

Or I dunno. Lol.
People are just weird sometimes?

I think it was First Aid for Psychiatry that used the example of "sublimation" in the defense mechanisms chapter as something along the lines of "a man who has violent urges becomes a surgeon so that he can cut human flesh".

Nope. not a psychiatrist who had a bad surgery rotation as a medical student. Not at all...

 

[anbuitachi]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

Probably because it's your first rotation but this is how it's going to be for a long time to come. No more hand holding, safe zones or w.e. you need to toughen up. It's normal in the real world to let you know if you are doing worse. Pimping is very normal. Staying long in the hospital may not be a good thing always. You need to read and know your stuff.

 

[mistafab]

OP - You have to rethink the word abuse. Take that word out of your vocab unless there is verbal abuse, emotional/psychological abuse, or physical abuse.

Someone asking you questions about anatomy during a surgery, or giving you personal feedback, is not abuse. Someone cutting you off in traffic is not abuse. Me telling you "I do not enjoy working with you" is not abuse. Someone saying "that guy is mean" is not abusing the guy by saying that. Abuse is not just a word, it is an allegation.

It sounds like you are having a tough time and I'm sorry. I hope you find a way to get through this and learn from it.

 

[deleted480308]

Probably because it's your first rotation but this is how it's going to be for a long time to come. No more hand holding, safe zones or w.e. you need to toughen up. It's normal in the real world to let you know if you are doing worse. Pimping is very normal. Staying long in the hospital may not be a good thing always. You need to read and know your stuff.

Yep. And step2 doesn't care about your feelings

 

[Mad Jack]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

Your skin seems to be thin. Pimping is a part of surgery, you should expect it. Surgical recall is your friend in this regard, you should be reading it religiously before every case. For post-op management, pimping is how you learn. The first time you say you don't know, you'll look it up. Next time, you say it to the best you can remember and they point out the flaws. And you repeat and repeat until you know what the hell you're doing. People talk about people, so the "talking behind your back" nonsense isn't something I'd worry about. Some of the toughest residents I had were some of the friendliest with me once I was done with third year or off of their rotation- it's nothing personal, they're trying to make you up to par by being hard on you. It's the heat and carbon of the forge that turns iron to steel, you've got to go through that fire and grime without breaking to become a better doctor.

Given your name, you'd better get used to it, because surgery is basically five years plus fellowship of what you're going through now, with even more hours than you're putting in now, plus call.

 

[Big Bad Byron]

its ok babe we all still love you

 

[Goro]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

Several lines popped out at me from your post:

We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything"

I struggle on presentations

nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately

my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists

basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not

These are all deficits. It's not abuse to have these pointed out to you. In fact, it's part of your education, and an obligation of your mentors. I agree that talking about you behind is unprofessional and that needs to stop.

You can help your self by talking 1:1 with him and asking for advice on how to improve. Then tell him that you do not appreciate being about behind your back.

The comment about Step I is concerning. Life does not begin and end with Step I.

If you're coming in at 3:45AM, and yet still lagging behind your colleagues who are coming in at 6, then you need to find a more efficient use of your time.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Sorry for the confusion: this is a surgery resident/PGY-3, all my interns have been good.

I created a new account to ask how I should deal with this issue. Basically, I'm a 3rd year on my first rotation interested in general surgery with an interest in surgical oncology. I am on a month of general surgery now and the surgery 3rd year has decided to carry out a personal vendetta against me. On rounds for the first week I had no idea how to do stuff and my trackmates seemed to pick up things faster because they're both previous nursing students/physical therapists whereas I always asked him for help. He was super helpful at first and but then referred me to the interns which was reasonable. I started running into problems when during the later weeks when I tried to ask interns things and he would tell me off as if he waited and knew I was going to ask them questions. Then it got a whole lot worse. We were in an open appendectomy and I was getting bored because I could barely see anything but this Dr. ***** decides to start pimping me which I heard he never does with the other students. He asked me why we were doing this procedure and I was only in second week so I just guessed and had been thrown into the OR because the other students said I needed so see my first appendectomy. After that, he unleashed a barrage of pimping on rounds directed to me like why the foley needed to be removed, what labs would we order on the post-operative patients, etc and nothing a student coming off Step 1 should know immediately. I work extremely hard and come in at 345 each day which is earlier than the other students and stay until 6 so I'm sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears and putting my all into this.

On top of all this, I heard from my classmates that this resident was talking about me behind my back which is not only unprofessional but it hurt a lot when I found out. He then humiliated me further recently post-rounds when he asked me in front of the whole group if he could talk alone with me which elicited smirks from everyone which brought me to tears and I literally started crying in front of him which is when he realized he went too far. He asked me why I was interested in surgery and that he was considering an elective week off for personal study basically trying to get rid of me, and basically told me that I was performing significantly worse than my two peers which again is uncalled for true or not. I feel like he had a target on my back ever since I said I wanted to do surgery. In addition, I think it's against our school's policy to take an entire week off as according to our syllabus, we are only given one day off and that's before our shelf so I think if I reported him I could really get him in trouble if I was malicious.

Everyone else on the team is reasonably nice to me with few exceptions which I can understand because they're all sleep deprived. I struggle on presentations and the 4th year above him is super nice to me and takes her time to correct my mistakes and actually waits until I'm done presenting as is the attending who is the only one evaluating me thankfully. Overall though, I'm wondering what I should do because this resident has really shattered my confidence and I just found out he's going to be on rotations with me my next month. Should I request a switch to avoid him and should I mention anything to administration about the resident because while I don't like making excuses, I feel like his presence alone gives me anxiety on rounds.

Op I just want to point out that your feelings of struggle are very normal actually. You will constantly be feeling like your current level is not sufficient and that everyone else is just so much better than you. Everyone has those feelings sometimes, the key is that you start coming up with ways to address. You say you are struggling with pre rounds and with presenting, think through the system you currently have and where you making mistakes. Write down a new system that addresses those mistakes and try that the next day, if new errors come up then do the same process again until you get to a better level. Same thing goes for the OR cases, since you weren't prepared for your last case think of a system that you will use to be prepared for the next case. It's this continued personal QI that will really lead to your growth as a physician.

The key is to not be to hard on yourself

 

[emergentmd]

Pimping + telling you in private you're not performing up to scratch is harsh but unfortunately not really mistreatment if it's true. But depending on what this resident is saying to other people about you behind your back...that might be a different story and sounds unprofessional to me.

Pimping and Telling in private is NOT harsh. How else do you want feedback or know what they should know? Should med students get no questions asked and not have any feedback if they are doing poorly.

Med students have more and more become entitled. I find it kind of ridiculous. Do they want a pillow to sleep on, steak for lunch, and home before 3p?

I stopped working with med students b/c they have become more entitled and I got tired of it. I am sure some would disagree and think my complaints are invalid but this is why I stopped.

1. student showed up 2 hrs late for a 9 am shift b/c they left late from another city 3 hrs away b/c a family member is sick. Fine... crap happens, but CALL to tell me your are late. Don't come in at 11 and tell me why you were late.
2. students asking continually to take a break to get something to eat. You are a med student, you may miss lunch. Bring a snack. I am an ER doc and always take a break to eat. I always take you with me and get you free food. It may not be exactly at 12p but never before 2p. No reason to ask when I am busy right at 1230p.
3. Ask to go home early to study
4. Look disinterested when I am charting/making phone calls and texting on your Phone.

When I was a Med student 20 yrs ago, this was unheard of. You NEVER ask to eat or take a break unless the team takes one. If you go without food for 12 hrs, oh well...... I don't even expect you not to eat for 12 hrs. I take you to lunch every shift, get you starbucks in the am every shift, and go to the cafeteria 2-4 times a shift and always bring you. But DONT ask when I am busy and its 1215.

 

[akwho]

You are getting tough love because you said you were interested in surgery. They want to help you shape up by giving you constructive criticism. At least they are saying it to your face so you can improve. Also, I'm worried you don't know the difference between your intern and your PGY-3 who is roasting you. Need to step up your game.

This goes one of two ways when a weak student shows up and says they want to do surgery:
1) Surgeon decides the student is salvageable and gives them constructive criticism until they improve or they reach step 2.
2) Surgeon decides the student is unsalvageable and they either ignore them or actively discourage them from pursuing surgery with a variety of methods.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Pimping and Telling in private is NOT harsh. How else do you want feedback or know what they should know? Should med students get no questions asked and not have any feedback if they are doing poorly.

Med students have more and more become entitled. I find it kind of ridiculous. Do they want a pillow to sleep on, steak for lunch, and home before 3p?

I stopped working with med students b/c they have become more entitled and I got tired of it. I am sure some would disagree and think my complaints are invalid but this is why I stopped.

1. student showed up 2 hrs late for a 9 am shift b/c they left late from another city 3 hrs away b/c a family member is sick. Fine... crap happens, but CALL to tell me your are late. Don't come in at 11 and tell me why you were late.
2. students asking continually to take a break to get something to eat. You are a med student, you may miss lunch. Bring a snack. I am an ER doc and always take a break to eat. I always take you with me and get you free food. It may not be exactly at 12p but never before 2p. No reason to ask when I am busy right at 1230p.
3. Ask to go home early to study
4. Look disinterested when I am charting/making phone calls and texting on your Phone.

When I was a Med student 20 yrs ago, this was unheard of. You NEVER ask to eat or take a break unless the team takes one. If you go without food for 12 hrs, oh well...... I don't even expect you not to eat for 12 hrs. I take you to lunch every shift, get you starbucks in the am every shift, and go to the cafeteria 2-4 times a shift and always bring you. But DONT ask when I am busy and its 1215.

So you make your students sit there while you chart? Of course they will be disinterested, that is a complete waste of their time. And asking when is lunch is a completely reasonable question... you can just say "we'll get lunch when we get a chance sometime later". I'll give you the not calling when late and asking to leave early but for the other two I think you are being silly.

 

[emergentmd]

So you make your students sit there while you chart? Of course they will be disinterested, that is a complete waste of their time. And asking when is lunch is a completely reasonable question... you can just say "we'll get lunch when we get a chance sometime later". I'll give you the not calling when late and asking to leave early but for the other two I think you are being silly.

I am sure you are a med student and that is why I stopped working with them.
I work in the ER, I chart throughout seeing patient. I see a pt, if not too busy I chart. I then see another pt or talk to the student. But if I am sitting down for 10-15 min to do a few chart, then you can ACT interested or read something medical, or go look at the XRay on the pts we saw. Don't text constantly and surf your FACEBOOK.

So if you look uninterested then don't complain when you get a bad evaluation.

Asking for lunch can be alittle reasonable if its 4pm and we haven't eaten. If I haven't eaten, then what makes you med student so special that you need to leave and eat? Its busy, we are late for lunch, its a GREAT chance to learn. But don't ask every day you are working with me. If food means so much, BRING a snack. Bring Nuts, a protein bar. You dont need an hr break to rest.

This is the mentality of med students who think that life has to revolve around them. Good luck and avoid all specialties that actually require some toughness.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Random side question. I'm not a med student, but I've taught residents and fellows and it can be annoying when all they do is play around on their phone and text. On the other hand, I look a lot of stuff up and read it on my ipad or phone. It can be really hard to tell what someone is doing on a device, so how do you recommend someone reading medical stuff or clinically relevant stuff on their phone goes about conveying that they they are being productive and aren't screwing around on facebook?

 

[CaliforniaAppli]

Wtf this is the normal life of a med student . Stop whining .

 

[TypeADissection]

There isn't much more I can say that hasn't already been said much better in the above posts. At first, I clicked on this thread under the impression that somebody was really beating up on you. Doesn't really sound like it. Welcome to surgery. Box of tissues is just to the left on your way out of the OR.

PS - OP just realized that we did not give a safe space on this thread. OP is going to be so pissed when he/she reads this.

 

[Jabbed]

Random side question. I'm not a med student, but I've taught residents and fellows and it can be annoying when all they do is play around on their phone and text. On the other hand, I look a lot of stuff up and read it on my ipad or phone. It can be really hard to tell what someone is doing on a device, so how do you recommend someone reading medical stuff or clinically relevant stuff on their phone goes about conveying that they they are being productive and aren't screwing around on facebook?

I'm never on my phone for more than 30 seconds. If I'm going to read UTD, I do it on a computer. Otherwise I'll just quickly check whatever med/guideline/workup and then put my phone away. Any down time reading material is always in hard copy to avoid any misunderstanding.

On occasions when I'm looking something up while rounding or in a patient's room, I'll verbalize it and/or let them know what I looked up.

Many people feel that using an iPad is safer as it doesn't quite give the same vibe as "playing on your phone".

 

[Redpancreas]

I'm never on my phone for more than 30 seconds. If I'm going to read UTD, I do it on a computer. Otherwise I'll just quickly check whatever med/guideline/workup and then put my phone away. Any down time reading material is always in hard copy to avoid any misunderstanding.

On occasions when I'm looking something up while rounding or in a patient's room, I'll verbalize it and/or let them know what I looked up.

Many people feel that using an iPad is safer as it doesn't quite give the same vibe as "playing on your phone".

You can turn your phone horizontally, increase brightness so the team can see the EMR/UpToDate background, or verbalize your search query but I wouldn't do the latter too often. I honestly don't care at this point if evaluators think I'm "playing on my phone". I adhere to my own honor code of no FB/social media outside of lunch or after I get off and if they want to judge me for something I'm doing to directly advance my knowledge, so be it. I look things up on my phone because later I may forget and it makes for less work later and it helps with spatial learning. If you're still engaged with what's going on (don't have your phone out near the bedside when the attending's giving the patient the end of life talk -under any circumstances) it shouldn't be a problem.

There's also something to be said about an increasingly common things students are doing on rotations which is inexcusable which is using social media/texting friends during rounds. I don't care if there's chill downtime and no one is doing anything or if the attending has gone with the chief into a room and everyone's outside. It's poor form to use your phone as a social media source during this time and gives a bad name to everyone who uses it as their primary learning tool during rotations.

 

[jw3600]

I am sure you are a med student and that is why I stopped working with them.
I work in the ER, I chart throughout seeing patient. I see a pt, if not too busy I chart. I then see another pt or talk to the student. But if I am sitting down for 10-15 min to do a few chart, then you can ACT interested or read something medical, or go look at the XRay on the pts we saw. Don't text constantly and surf your FACEBOOK.

So if you look uninterested then don't complain when you get a bad evaluation.

Asking for lunch can be alittle reasonable if its 4pm and we haven't eaten. If I haven't eaten, then what makes you med student so special that you need to leave and eat? Its busy, we are late for lunch, its a GREAT chance to learn. But don't ask every day you are working with me. If food means so much, BRING a snack. Bring Nuts, a protein bar. You dont need an hr break to rest.

This is the mentality of med students who think that life has to revolve around them. Good luck and avoid all specialties that actually require some toughness.

Every other attending I've ever worked with, community or academic, has checked their phone or email for personal reasons briefly. 1-2 minutes. I've also seen it in pretty much every field regardless, including outside of medicine. It's not a big deal.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Every other attending I've ever worked with, community or academic, has checked their phone or email for personal reasons briefly. 1-2 minutes. I've also seen it in pretty much every field regardless, including outside of medicine. It's not a big deal.

If only rules applied equally to all...

 

[jw3600]

If only rules applied equally to all...

Allow me to rephrase. Every attending, PA, RN, medical student, scribe, janitor, charge nurse, RT, resident, fellow, consulting attending. It's about getting the work done.

 

[VincentAdultman]

OP I know I'm piling on but this is 2017, you I'm sure have a small supercomputer in your pocket, and YOU CAN NOT scrub an app (or any case at any time for that matter) without knowing the indications. Cmon man.