Academic dishonesty.....

[univkid]

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Im a freshman and I am put in a very weird/troubled situation.
Our school's policy is that if you get 2 stipulations, you get an academic honesty record on your transcript.... and that did happen to me... but in a somewhat unfair/weird way.

1) so the first time i got my stipulation was because of the clicker. Our school uses the clicker to take the attendance and for a little quiz throughout the lecture for the participation points. What happened was that one of my friend wanted me to do the clicker for him. I couldn't say no... (peer pressure of course...) and took it and did it for him. But i got caught using two clickers and i got my first stipulation. it was alrite so far since that does not go into my record....

2)but the second stipulation was given to me like a month after i got my first one... and this wasnt really related to cheating either. My lab partner copied my lab without my knowledge, and our lab turned out to be extremely similar. In fact so similar that the calculations (including parenthesis,etc) were exactly the same..... and the teacher gave me another stipulation because I supposedly let him copy.....

In both cases, I did not really directly cheat. It's more like i was peer pressured on the first one and the 2nd one.... i dont even know wat to say.....

I don't know if this is going to go into my record yet. I still need to talk to the dean and the professor,etc about it. But i have a feeling that this will probably go into my record....

Would this severly hurt my chances of getting into any dental school? (as you can see, i didnt really cheat in both cases....)

 

[Maygyver]

You didn't really cheat in the second, but yeah, the first one is legit no matter how much you blame it on peer pressure. If my friend was sitting next to me and asked to copy my test and I let him, the fact that he "peer pressured" me into it, doesn't make it not cheating. It should affect your chances, but I don't know how much it will. You will have to notify the schools about it though. Hopefully you start learning from your mistakes though.

 

[Student3322]

Yes it probably will, and that sucks, but that's what you get for choosing to attend what I'm guessing is some ridiculous private college. I go to a highly regarded state university and that stuff happens all the time and nobody cares... I only consider it cheating if someone is cheating on an exam, otherwise who cares about the bs clicker and lab requirements as long as you learn the material and can do well on an exam that should be all that matters.

 

[Student3322]

Lol, you can't compare clicking a friend in to letting him cheat on an exam. Clickers are a joke anyway all they are for is to extort even more money from students and force you to attend lectures which are a complete waste of time in the first place.

 

[slm266]

It doesnt matter if it's an exam, or points for attendance. It shows how much your integrity is worth, and dental schools are interested in knowing that.

You did cheat. It's hard to imagine that you lab partner was able copy exact details without you catching wind of what was going on. I imagine you knew, but didnt view it as a big deal (like the iClicker issue).

Will the issues be detrimental to your acceptance? No.
Will they if you continue to rationalize your dishonestly? Yes

 

[Student3322]

I wouldn't question anyone's integrity for clicking a friend in; in fact I would question their integrity if they refused to help out the friend. What happened to the OP is like getting a $300 fine and a misdemeanor for jaywalking across a completely empty street. If the rule or law you are breaking is irrational or unfounded then your integrity is not in question. It was the same with not turning in a runaway slave not too long ago, but I assume you would have characterized anyone who didn't follow the letter of the law in that case as a dishonest and low person.

 

[ugapharm]

I feel for you on the first one. My friend and I both got stuck with the crummy o-chem teacher. Therefore, we audit the good teacher's class(exams are mass exams for all o-chem students) and we alternate days taking clickers to the crummy teacher's lecture and just sit there and study for another class.

If we actually got into trouble for that, I'd be ticked, but I guess it is technically academic dishonesty.

 

[yappy]

Who doesnt collaberate for lab write ups? too bad your friend was so stupid to copy yours in such detail lol. Your school sounds very strict - in my experience my profs are WAY to busy with their research to care about stuff like this - even if they had knowedge of it I dont think they would do anything other than say dont.

 

[loveoforganic]

Cross posted in pre allo. Probably trolling

 

[Odontos2015]

Will this matter be reviewed by a committee or the dean of the division? Will there be a hearing before action is taken? Talk to the department head or the dean of the college of arts and sciences and see what can be done as far as appealing any decisions made.

 

[slm266]

I wouldn't question anyone's integrity for clicking a friend in; in fact I would question their integrity if they refused to help out the friend. What happened to the OP is like getting a $300 fine and a misdemeanor for jaywalking across a completely empty street. If the rule or law you are breaking is irrational or unfounded then your integrity is not in question. It was the same with not turning in a runaway slave not too long ago, but I assume you would have characterized anyone who didn't follow the letter of the law in that case as a dishonest and low person.

1. You seem to not understand the meaning of integrity. Integrity has nothing to do with helping out a friend. Not to mention the friend is asking him to lie for him.

2. The professor is well within his/her right to factor attendance into the grading. It is a way to give easy points to those who are diligent. Hardly a case of tyranny.

3. Really? Comparing class attendance to slavery?

I'm not gonna lie, I have been known to j-walk. I even have a city library book that is a week overdue. Academic dishonesty is a different thing, and will manifest itself in a practicing dentist.

 

[ugapharm]

Who doesnt collaberate for lab write ups? too bad your friend was so stupid to copy yours in such detail lol. Your school sounds very strict - in my experience my profs are WAY to busy with their research to care about stuff like this - even if they had knowedge of it I dont think they would do anything other than say dont.

Seriously, I know people who copy lab write ups word for word and I've never heard of anyone actually getting in trouble despite hearing threats at the beginning of every semester about it.

For general chemistry here, the entire group only turned in one report and everyone received the same grade.

 

[eringer]

I wouldn't question anyone's integrity for clicking a friend in; in fact I would question their integrity if they refused to help out the friend. What happened to the OP is like getting a $300 fine and a misdemeanor for jaywalking across a completely empty street. If the rule or law you are breaking is irrational or unfounded then your integrity is not in question. It was the same with not turning in a runaway slave not too long ago, but I assume you would have characterized anyone who didn't follow the letter of the law in that case as a dishonest and low person.

Alright, so I can't believe it took so many posts until someone finally pointed out the hilarity of this comment. I cannot believe that you compared not clicking in a friend for class with turning in a runaway slave. That has got to be the worst analogy of all time. Look, cheating in school is wrong, no matter how severe. I, too, think that if your integrity can be bought with peer pressure, it isn't worth much. If you think a friend giving you a hard time for not letting him cheat is a tough ethical question, wait until you get out into the real world.

 

[ugapharm]

Alright, so I can't believe it took so many posts until someone finally pointed out the hilarity of this comment. I cannot believe that you compared not clicking in a friend for class with turning in a runaway slave. That has got to be the worst analogy of all time. Look, cheating in school is wrong, no matter how severe. I, too, think that if your integrity can be bought with peer pressure, it isn't worth much. If you think a friend giving you a hard time for not letting him cheat is a tough ethical question, wait until you get out into the real world.

The analogy is pretty extreme.

However, I don't think I am compromising my integrity when I take my friend's clicker or my friend takes mine. Why should I have to go to my assigned lecture if I can learn the material for the exam? Especially when the flaws of the UGA chem department stuck half the class with the horrible teacher even after most of made sure to register with the good one(the two professors switched time a month before classes started with no warning.)

 

[Maygyver]

Jeez, how many accounts does the OP have in this thread?

 

[ugapharm]

I'm not the OP, I'm just saying I've either done or seen both of these happen and he's unfortunate to be caught.

 

[z3u2]

Why should I have to go to my assigned lecture if I can learn the material for the exam?

why should one go to office to work when he/she can do all the job at home on a computer? It's a job. If the company requires you to be there, u need to be there.

Living in this society means there's certain responsibilities/restrictions you are bounded to.
While I understand why people would choose not to attend a lecture. But choosing to do so means you should also accept the possible consequences.

And why should one person who misses a lecture, has a friend signed up for attendence, gets the same attendence mark as the rest of the classmates who did attend?

 

[z3u2]

to the OP
In ur application you can indicate how you've learned from the mistakes you made, and how u've improved and corrected yourself.

if the academic honesty record will be shown on ur transcript (as you said, i have no idea where they put it on record)
why not order a copy of transcript for yourself to see if it's there?

 

[SuperTank]

The analogy is pretty extreme.

However, I don't think I am compromising my integrity when I take my friend's clicker or my friend takes mine. Why should I have to go to my assigned lecture if I can learn the material for the exam? Especially when the flaws of the UGA chem department stuck half the class with the horrible teacher even after most of made sure to register with the good one(the two professors switched time a month before classes started with no warning.)

Nobody is forcing you to go to your assigned lecture. Miss it and loose the points. But when you are having your friend take your clicker to trick your professor into thinking you're there, that's dishonest, no matter how you try to justify it. Don't go to class, that's fine. But don't have a friend of yours lie for you so you can get credit you really don't deserve.

They use clickers at some dental schools, too (mine included). They don't take attendance all the time, but one specific class does... and if you were caught with a firends' clicker so that he would get credit for being there when he wasn't, you would be on extremely thin ice, in risk of expulsion.

We can have a whole discussion about where you draw the line in school, to what extent you're willing to lie or cheat to get ahead, and then we can talk about where you're going to draw the line in your practice. But the question is, how can your integrity remain in tact, if you're even a little unethical?

 

[shedara2008]

Well you can not do anything about what has been already done. If there is a question about disciplinary actions against you. tell the truth. However i would get an unofficial copy of my transcript and review it to see if it is denoted anywhere. Just tell the truth if it comes up, and dont make excuses. Explain how you have change since then, and what you have learned from it... but only if the question comes up. I'm sure you would hate to relive the embarassment if you dont have to.
I know a really smart girl who had to repeat a year of dental school because she cheated on a measly 10 pt quiz. (now they could have expelled her, but they gave her another chance.) and if anyone asks her about it, she never made excuses she just said she was caught cheating and it was a really stupid mistake..

 

[justwannabeDMD]

=

 

[ugapharm]

why should one go to office to work when he/she can do all the job at home on a computer? It's a job. If the company requires you to be there, u need to be there.

Living in this society means there's certain responsibilities/restrictions you are bounded to.
While I understand why people would choose not to attend a lecture. But choosing to do so means you should also accept the possible consequences.

And why should one person who misses a lecture, has a friend signed up for attendence, gets the same attendence mark as the rest of the classmates who did attend?

Pretty skewed analogy...I pay to go to school and attend these lectures. At a job, they are paying you.

Nobody is forcing you to go to your assigned lecture. Miss it and loose the points. But when you are having your friend take your clicker to trick your professor into thinking you're there, that's dishonest, no matter how you try to justify it. Don't go to class, that's fine. But don't have a friend of yours lie for you so you can get credit you really don't deserve.

They use clickers at some dental schools, too (mine included). They don't take attendance all the time, but one specific class does... and if you were caught with a firends' clicker so that he would get credit for being there when he wasn't, you would be on extremely thin ice, in risk of expulsion.

We can have a whole discussion about where you draw the line in school, to what extent you're willing to lie or cheat to get ahead, and then we can talk about where you're going to draw the line in your practice. But the question is, how can your integrity remain in tact, if you're even a little unethical?

I don't consider it unethical at all. The chemistry department here tries so hard to screw people over(for example, kicking half the class out of the good professor's lecture with no heads up and sticking us with a teacher with a GPA a full point lower), that I don't mind working the system. Trust me, I don't compromise my morals for success.

I guess we won't see it each other's way, but I don't think either of the OP's instances are bad(the copied lab report would be, but he claims to have no knowledge.)

 

[spud daddy]

Pretty skewed analogy...I pay to go to school and attend these lectures. At a job, they are paying you.

I don't consider it unethical at all. The chemistry department here tries so hard to screw people over(for example, kicking half the class out of the good professor's lecture with no heads up and sticking us with a teacher with a GPA a full point lower), that I don't mind working the system. Trust me, I don't compromise my morals for success.

I guess we won't see it each other's way, but I don't think either of the OP's instances are bad(the copied lab report would be, but he claims to have no knowledge.)

Don't see these two phrases together very often.

 

[beatsdre]

I don't consider it unethical at all. The chemistry department here tries so hard to screw people over(for example, kicking half the class out of the good professor's lecture with no heads up and sticking us with a teacher with a GPA a full point lower), that I don't mind working the system. Trust me, I don't compromise my morals for success.

You may not see it as "unethical," but any questionable thing like that...is "unethical." Having sat on tons of tons of academic boards, schools can peg you on the slightest thing. If the teacher thinks you didn't "cite correctly" then thats considered plagiarism. If you copied a "few words" from a friends lab report, its cheating. If you used your clickers or whatever, it's cheating. There is no grey on the academic board. I would consider yourself lucky, and stop doing it in the future. You seem like you agree with the fact that "instances of slight underhandedness" are ok. Trust me. It's not. Anything that is considered slight, major, minor or whatever, is considered unethical PERIOD. I've seen many students in that situation saying "Oh I didn't know" "But it was just one line" "It was just one click" and their academic record has been destroyed. Academic boards (especially the faculty) are extremely unforgiving.

You may not mind "working the system," but remember, the "system can def. work against you." I've seen it happen way to many times.

Edit: To be honest, I don't think you care. And thats all fine and dandy. Most of the people that go to the board don't care and never think it will happen to them. And quite frankly, most people do get away with whatever. But you DON"T want to be on the board, and whenever you do something like that, you put yourself at risk. Anyways GL with everything =)

 

[oreoson]

I was in a similar situation when my classmate peer pressured me into sharing my entire master's dissertation proposal. I was trying to come up with ways to avoid getting penalized if caught, like getting her to sign a waiver and consent form, but I just decide to ignore her since that day and onward coz it's better to lose a friend like that than getting screwed over for life.

 

[beatsdre]

I was in a similar situation when my classmate peer pressured me into sharing my entire master's dissertation proposal. I was trying to come up with ways to avoid getting penalized if caught, like getting her to sign a waiver and consent form, but I just decide to ignore her since that day and onward coz it's better to lose a friend like that than getting screwed over for life.

👍Best decision you could ever make. Move on and ignore her. Not worth losing your academic career.

 

[bevoMBA90]

Yes it probably will, and that sucks, but that's what you get for choosing to attend what I'm guessing is some ridiculous private college. I go to a highly regarded state university and that stuff happens all the time and nobody cares... I only consider it cheating if someone is cheating on an exam, otherwise who cares about the bs clicker and lab requirements as long as you learn the material and can do well on an exam that should be all that matters.

I totally agree. Cheating on exams is really hard: you have proctors and/or the test is on a computer. Otherwise, anything goes. In grad school, we had oral exams. During the semester, you had to schedule 2 or 3 office visits w/your professor. No cheating here!🙂

 

[SuperTank]

I don't consider it unethical at all. The chemistry department here tries so hard to screw people over(for example, kicking half the class out of the good professor's lecture with no heads up and sticking us with a teacher with a GPA a full point lower), that I don't mind working the system. Trust me, I don't compromise my morals for success.

So let's examine a situation that's similar, but in a different context.

A new patient comes to your office for an exam. During the course of the exam, you find that there is a large amount of decay under an existing crown, and the patient will require a new one. The patient agrees and you set up an appointment for the next month. You call the insurance company and find out that there is a stipulation that a crown can only be replaced every 7 years. The patient told you that he got the crown 6 years ago. So what do you do? Do you "work the system" and say the crown was seven years old to get insurance to cover it? (After all, the insurance companies are trying to screw you just as much as your school does).

Or how about this: A patient comes to your office in December needing to get a bridge done. They still have all their benefits for the year. You do everything you can to ensure that the bridge is in the patients mouth before the end of the year, so they don't loose their insurance benefits. However, the bridge was delayed in getting to your office to the point that you couldn't get it to your patient until January 2. You also find out that the patient has lost their insurance coverage for the new year. So what do you do? Do you work the system again and say the bridge was seated two days earlier, on the 31st? After all, it would have been seated if everything had gone according to plan.

In both instances you're just trying to help your patient so they don't have to pay so much out of pocket; you'll get your money either way, so it's not a matter of you "compromising your morals for success."

Also, in both instances you could lose your license to practice dentistry, and possibly go to jail.

 

[ugapharm]

So let's examine a situation that's similar, but in a different context.

A new patient comes to your office for an exam. During the course of the exam, you find that there is a large amount of decay under an existing crown, and the patient will require a new one. The patient agrees and you set up an appointment for the next month. You call the insurance company and find out that there is a stipulation that a crown can only be replaced every 7 years. The patient told you that he got the crown 6 years ago. So what do you do? Do you "work the system" and say the crown was seven years old to get insurance to cover it? (After all, the insurance companies are trying to screw you just as much as your school does).

Or how about this: A patient comes to your office in December needing to get a bridge done. They still have all their benefits for the year. You do everything you can to ensure that the bridge is in the patients mouth before the end of the year, so they don't loose their insurance benefits. However, the bridge was delayed in getting to your office to the point that you couldn't get it to your patient until January 2. You also find out that the patient has lost their insurance coverage for the new year. So what do you do? Do you work the system again and say the bridge was seated two days earlier, on the 31st? After all, it would have been seated if everything had gone according to plan.

In both instances you're just trying to help your patient so they don't have to pay so much out of pocket; you'll get your money either way, so it's not a matter of you "compromising your morals for success."

Also, in both instances you could lose your license to practice dentistry, and possibly go to jail.

Again, I don't see how going to another organic lecture when we take the same exam and playing the clicker switch game to make sure I still get attendance credit is anything close to lying to an insurance company.

When I do go to my assigned lecture, I always take homework to complete or notes to study and don't even pay attention.

 

[Maygyver]

Who cares if it is a pain to go to class, by definition, this is academic dishonesty. Man up and tell you friend to take the hit in points or go to class. It really isn't that big of a pain to go to class. Sorry professors actually want to reward people who put in the effort to go to class.

 

[lululime]

Get a lawyer?

 

[lululime]

Or actually, if you have a law school at your institution, the student society might be able to help you fight your case for free!

 

[Student3322]

So let's examine a situation that's similar, but in a different context.

A new patient comes to your office for an exam. During the course of the exam, you find that there is a large amount of decay under an existing crown, and the patient will require a new one. The patient agrees and you set up an appointment for the next month. You call the insurance company and find out that there is a stipulation that a crown can only be replaced every 7 years. The patient told you that he got the crown 6 years ago. So what do you do? Do you "work the system" and say the crown was seven years old to get insurance to cover it? (After all, the insurance companies are trying to screw you just as much as your school does).

Or how about this: A patient comes to your office in December needing to get a bridge done. They still have all their benefits for the year. You do everything you can to ensure that the bridge is in the patients mouth before the end of the year, so they don't loose their insurance benefits. However, the bridge was delayed in getting to your office to the point that you couldn't get it to your patient until January 2. You also find out that the patient has lost their insurance coverage for the new year. So what do you do? Do you work the system again and say the bridge was seated two days earlier, on the 31st? After all, it would have been seated if everything had gone according to plan.

In both instances you're just trying to help your patient so they don't have to pay so much out of pocket; you'll get your money either way, so it's not a matter of you "compromising your morals for success."

Also, in both instances you could lose your license to practice dentistry, and possibly go to jail.

Unless the chances of getting caught are high I would definitely help my patient and if you disagree then you are the unethical and unreasonable one. How could you have that little sympathy especially in the second case when it is your offices fault. You would sit tidy and watch the patient leave with no work done and go to bed feeling happy that you didn't risk your butt even a tiny bit. Dentistry is about helping your community and your patients, not being a greedy self-absorbed person who only cares about themselves.

 

[SuperTank]

Unless the chances of getting caught are high I would definitely help my patient and if you disagree then you are the unethical and unreasonable one. How could you have that little sympathy especially in the second case when it is your offices fault. You would sit tidy and watch the patient leave with no work done and go to bed feeling happy that you didn't risk your butt even a tiny bit. Dentistry is about helping your community and your patients, not being a greedy self-absorbed person who only cares about themselves.

Having worked in the dental insurance field, and being married to a senior claims examiner of a large health insurance company, I can say that these offenses are taken very seriously.

In the second case, it wasn't the dental offices fault, but was delayed either by the lab, or the mail system. "It was delayed getting to the office."

I never said anything about being greedy, lacking sympathy, sitting tidy, etc. You can certainly help your patient: provide the service at cost, simply bill what the patients co-pay would have been, provide the service at no charge. These are all ethical solutions to the problem.

But to "risk your butt" and submit fraudulent insurance claims, regardless of your motives, is unethical. It's pretty hard to "help your community and your patients" when you no longer have a license to practice.

 

[Student3322]

The ignorance in this topic is really astounding. It's a shame that so many of you who justify clicking a friend in as lacking integrity and a just cause for a academic dishonesty citation are going to be joining this profession. I assume that most of you are gunners, and it really shows by the lack of empathy you all display.

Sorry but life isn't about blindly following the rules; sometimes you need to question the rules. For example, you are paying all this money to go to college and learn the material of the courses you take. Anyone could learn this material using the internet, but you are paying all this money so that you get a transcript showing how well you learned the material which you can then use to get a job. Therefore, your grade (the purpose of which is to measure your mastery of the material) should be determined by your knowledge of the material, right? If you have a terrible lecturer and can better learn the material in another lecture or by just reading the textbook, how can you say it is excusable for your grade (WHICH MEASURES YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE MATERIAL) to be lowered because you do not attend the said lecture. That is ridiculous plain and simple and is only because the lecturer is on a power trip and wants to force students into listening to his/her pointless and uneducational spiel. To say otherwise is to be a blind sheep; use your brains and maybe you will not make a dentist with no empathy.

 

[Maygyver]

Is it really that big of a pain to go to class? (Assuming you know the material as much as you make it sound, you could spare to lose a few attendance points so you wouldn't even have to go to everyone.) Also, don't accuse people of having no empathy and not using their brains, because they actually follow rules and don't like your short cuts.

It sure is a mighty shame that honest people are getting into the profession! I'm scared for the future.

 

[spud daddy]

Student3322 has got to be a troll. There is no way he is this confused.

 

[Student3322]

You might be honest but you also show a lack of empathy and critical thinking skills which is a big concern. If you really believe the OP "got what he deserved" you truly lack both. They will probably not get into dental school because of this, because they helped out a friend (showing empathy) in an instance in which the rules were absolutely irrational (the clicker requirement). This was not cheating and yeah the OP got screwed by the letter of the rules. But if you are a decent person you would say "Damn, you really got screwed those rules are BS and you were unlucky to get caught," not "You got what you deserved for breaking the (arbitrary and illogical) rule."

 

[slm266]

You might be honest but you also show a lack of empathy and critical thinking skills which is a big concern. If you really believe the OP "got what he deserved" you truly lack both. They will probably not get into dental school because of this, because they helped out a friend (showing empathy) in an instance in which the rules were absolutely irrational (the clicker requirement). This was not cheating and yeah the OP got screwed by the letter of the rules. But if you are a decent person you would say "Damn, you really got screwed those rules are BS and you were unlucky to get caught," not "You got what you deserved for breaking the (arbitrary and illogical) rule."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0&hd=1

 

[lemoncurry]

when you enroll in a university, you enter into a contract by which you agree to abide by the rules of the university itself as well as the college you are in, and that includes the "sub-contract" of the syllabus. If the syllabus contains information stating that a student MUST attend class and their attendance MUST be verified by the clicker, then it is dishonest and unethical to click someone else in when they are absent.

How you do something is how you do everything. If you're willing to fudge on the little things, then you're willing to fudge the big things.

 

[ugapharm]

Is it really that big of a pain to go to class? (Assuming you know the material as much as you make it sound, you could spare to lose a few attendance points so you wouldn't even have to go to everyone.) Also, don't accuse people of having no empathy and not using their brains, because they actually follow rules and don't like your short cuts.

It sure is a mighty shame that honest people are getting into the profession! I'm scared for the future.

Yes, it is. It's at 5:00 on a Tuesday and Thursday, and I go to the MWF class I'm not enrolled in anyway. Sorry if I don't want to hear this Russian guy who I can't understand repeat the same stuff I just heard the day before when I could be making better use of my time and review on my own.

Anyway, I'm done replying. This argument is going in circles, and nobody is going to budge. Obviously I find no problem with this kind of behavior and some people out there do.

 

[jj007]

I believe that as a health care professional, you need to have integrity and abide by the rules whether you think they are relevant or not. It is not up to you to decide if they are. If they are your friends, they will not ask you to cheat for them especially if it's only for a couple points. If they really need those points, they probably need to attend the class. Therefore you are actually doing them a disfavor for "clicking" for them.

If you ever go on interviews to dental schools, you might be asked a similar question about what would you do if you know a friend is cheating. I hope that you have the guts to tell the adcom the truth, which is that you will actually help your friend cheat if you don't agree with the rules. All I can say to you is good luck on the interviews.

To the OP, learn from your mistakes and do not make them again. Do make it excuses. Yes, you didn't cheat on the 2nd one, but you did cheat on the 1st one even though you did not get any benefits from it. As you might have noticed, your records do follow you. You were unsuccessful in convincing the teacher that you didn't cheat the 2nd time around.

You might be honest but you also show a lack of empathy and critical thinking skills which is a big concern. If you really believe the OP "got what he deserved" you truly lack both. They will probably not get into dental school because of this, because they helped out a friend (showing empathy) in an instance in which the rules were absolutely irrational (the clicker requirement). This was not cheating and yeah the OP got screwed by the letter of the rules. But if you are a decent person you would say "Damn, you really got screwed those rules are BS and you were unlucky to get caught," not "You got what you deserved for breaking the (arbitrary and illogical) rule."

 

[eringer]

You might be honest but you also show a lack of empathy and critical thinking skills which is a big concern. If you really believe the OP "got what he deserved" you truly lack both. They will probably not get into dental school because of this, because they helped out a friend (showing empathy) in an instance in which the rules were absolutely irrational (the clicker requirement). This was not cheating and yeah the OP got screwed by the letter of the rules. But if you are a decent person you would say "Damn, you really got screwed those rules are BS and you were unlucky to get caught," not "You got what you deserved for breaking the (arbitrary and illogical) rule."

A few people in this thread seem to be having a hard time understanding the difference between "honesty" and "legitimacy." Clickers were introduced to allow the class to participate in voting schemes. Sadly, professors have turned them into a way to mandate attendance. I think we can all agree that it is lame. I personally think that if you can ace the exams, your attendance shouldn't be required. I get that. However, clickers are also assigned to students. If you are clicking in for a friend...it is a fact that you are not him, and you are being dishonest about it. There is no arguing that. In that sense, clicking in for a friend is dishonest, as you are leading your professor into believing that your friend is in class, when he is not. It seems every argument on this topic misses the point that it is dishonest, and rather focuses on the fact that the rules are illegitimate or unreasonable. I can agree with that. There are all kinds of rules I disagree with, but the fact is, if I speed on the freeway, I am going to get a ticket, whether I agree with the policy or not.

 

[Student3322]

A few people in this thread seem to be having a hard time understanding the difference between "honesty" and "legitimacy." Clickers were introduced to allow the class to participate in voting schemes. Sadly, professors have turned them into a way to mandate attendance. I think we can all agree that it is lame. I personally think that if you can ace the exams, your attendance shouldn't be required. I get that. However, clickers are also assigned to students. If you are clicking in for a friend...it is a fact that you are not him, and you are being dishonest about it. There is no arguing that. In that sense, clicking in for a friend is dishonest, as you are leading your professor into believing that your friend is in class, when he is not. It seems every argument on this topic misses the point that it is dishonest, and rather focuses on the fact that the rules are illegitimate or unreasonable. I can agree with that. There are all kinds of rules I disagree with, but the fact is, if I speed on the freeway, I am going to get a ticket, whether I agree with the policy or not.

Yeah I agree but all I'm saying is you have to be able to think and draw a line where the rules are just irrational (as your grade being determined by attendance). Obviously going at extreme speeds on a highway is dangerous and most people can agree that for the good of society speeding laws should be in place. However, there is a line when there is a clearly irrational rule and people should not just fall in line with it just because "it's a rule."

That is why I referenced the runaway slave example, not because I am in any way saying that these two instances are of similar magnitude, but that you as a member of the society have an ability to do what you think is right in the case of an irrational rule. Yes, many people who helped runaway slaves were sent to jail for breaking the irrational rule of slavery. And yes, many people like the OP got academic citations (obviously this is not of the same magnitude as the slave example but the same rationale applies) for breaking the irrational rule of clicker attendance. However, the same type of people who said the slave helpers "got what they deserved" are the type of people saying the OP got what he deserved. If the world was full of people like that we would still have slavery. Think about the logic of the rules before making a judgement.

But yeah I am done posting here too, the close-minded gunners will never change anyway.

 

[tinman831]

The rules are the rules and if you have to follow them if you want to play the game whether they are "irrational" or not. For instance, lets say you have a patient who came to you in pain and needed work done but had no money. Their insurance requires them to pay a co pay. You could be nice and bill the insurance company for their portion and waive the co pay for the patient, but sadly this is insurance fraud and could land you in legal trouble. You've worked so hard to get to where you are. Why risk it?

Sure you can try and be Mr. Nice Guy, but just be prepared to eat the consequences should you get caught.

 

[bevoMBA90]

posted 2x

 

[bevoMBA90]

🙁 HOW ABOUT THIS ACTUAL INCIDENT:


A trio of students started to share their crown-and-bridge and prosthodontic work. X would make a bridge, Y would make an RPD, and Z would make a full set of dentures. (Division of labor, more than OK in the MBA program!) Because each was in a different lab, and under the supervision of different instructors, XY&Z could freely pass their work around to each other, and present each project for grading 3 times! The scheme worked well, but unraveled when a faculty member was absent. One instructor had to cover 2 labs and graded the same bridge twice. GAME OVER, MAN! However, only X&Y were caught. Z was not implicated nor turned-in by X&Y. X&Y brought in their attorneys to meet with the dental dean & chair of the dept. Punishment: X&Y had to repeat the year...Desperate times call for desperate measures. The stress gets to everyone!

 

[Samus2008]

I've never heard of clickers. lol

 

[shadowfox87]

The ignorance in this topic is really astounding. It's a shame that so many of you who justify clicking a friend in as lacking integrity and a just cause for a academic dishonesty citation are going to be joining this profession. I assume that most of you are gunners, and it really shows by the lack of empathy you all display.

Sorry but life isn't about blindly following the rules; sometimes you need to question the rules. For example, you are paying all this money to go to college and learn the material of the courses you take. Anyone could learn this material using the internet, but you are paying all this money so that you get a transcript showing how well you learned the material which you can then use to get a job. Therefore, your grade (the purpose of which is to measure your mastery of the material) should be determined by your knowledge of the material, right? If you have a terrible lecturer and can better learn the material in another lecture or by just reading the textbook, how can you say it is excusable for your grade (WHICH MEASURES YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE MATERIAL) to be lowered because you do not attend the said lecture. That is ridiculous plain and simple and is only because the lecturer is on a power trip and wants to force students into listening to his/her pointless and uneducational spiel. To say otherwise is to be a blind sheep; use your brains and maybe you will not make a dentist with no empathy.

This is the biggest load of BS I've heard for a long time. Nobody is saying here that the people who go to class>people who don't go to class. Whatever works for you as long as you get the grades. The point here is that if your "friend" has to request you to STAY in class while he/she goes does something else like sleep, it is just wrong. It doesn't even matter what the rules are. The person who gets penalized is not the person who attends the class. A lot of people mistaken kindness and empathy and think that they need to do all the homework for their friends, copy, etc. Many people may make friends like this, but to me, it's called a donator-leecher relationship. The donator is more at fault than the leecher.

 

[bevoMBA90]

when you enroll in a university, you enter into a contract by which you agree to abide by the rules of the university itself as well as the college you are in, and that includes the "sub-contract" of the syllabus. If the syllabus contains information stating that a student MUST attend class and their attendance MUST be verified by the clicker, then it is dishonest and unethical to click someone else in when they are absent.

How you do something is how you do everything. If you're willing to fudge on the little things, then you're willing to fudge the big things.

Education is essentially a one-sided contract (K). The student (client) has to satisfactorily perform all the requirements before the school (company) grants a degree. However, there are essentially 3 K's in play in just about any K: 1) the written K, 2) the social K and 3) the psychological K.

Elements of a K: 1) an offer, 2) an acceptance, 3) objectives, 4) meeting of the minds (did these people really understand the offer and mean to enter into the K), 5) consideration (something of value exchanged for something else of value), 6) competent parties (i.e., minors cannot enter into binding contracts).

1. The written K is what it is. If you do ABCD, then you get your degree, or you get paid $X, etc.
2.The social K is what you see happening around you. What are your peers doing and what are they getting for it ($$, grades, perks)? How much do they get away with? How hard do they work? Existance of a pecking order, slackers, gunners, teacher's pets, etc. Is there mission creep? (You signed up for ABCD, but now you have also do EF&G.) How are you treated by The Man vs. your peers?
3.Psychological K is what you internalize from #1 & #2. Is this situation worth it? Are you happy? Are you getting screwed? Is this a productive use of your talent / money / time? Is this driving you nuts? Should you bend the rules and get ahead or get even with the system, your peers, your professors?

Your behavior is then guided by these 3 K's. Hence the saying, “Nothing is illegal until you get caught.”