Academic Integrity Issue

[deleted621466]

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[costales]

Your chances are nil at any U.S. med school if you have an institutional action for cheating.

 

[radian313]

I hate to break it to you, but being a former Judge for the Honor Committee and working with Academic Affairs....it is near to impossible to again admission since there will be likely some action

 

[deleted621466]

I hate to break it to you, but being a former Judge for the Honor Committee and working with Academic Affairs....it is near to impossible to again admission since there will be likely some action

Hi Radian313, I am just wondering what do you mean by "there will be likely some action". Thanks a lot!

 

[radian313]

If your case does go to the Honor Committee.....which as you said it will.....and if there is a sanction placed on your transcript (i.e. suspension) that counts as "disciplinary action". I am not sure how your judicial proceedings work, but sometimes students have had luck talking to the professor to see if they can just take certain workshops and not be given this action to clear their transcript.....but trust me, if you do get this on your transcript....it will be VERY hard to gain admission in any US institution.....medical/clinical science has a huge umbrella overseeing this stuff....for example their concern would be whether a doctor would rightly diagnose and/or treat according to what they need....not to claim higher reimbursement.....

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I agree with the other posters that you have almost ZERO chance in getting accepted into a US med school if such action appears in your transcript. I suggest that you talk to the professor to see if there is something you can do to remediate the situation... You should apply to some DO schools, but you have to take responsibility for actions when writing your secondaries. If you get an ii, you should also be ready to discuss and own your action. Apply to the big 4 in the caribbean as back up.

 

[GypsyHummus]

If your case does go to the Honor Committee.....which as you said it will.....and if there is a sanction placed on your transcript (i.e. suspension) that counts as "disciplinary action". I am not sure how your judicial proceedings work, but sometimes students have had luck talking to the professor to see if they can just take certain workshops and not be given this action to clear their transcript.....but trust me, if you do get this on your transcript....it will be VERY hard to gain admission in any US institution.....medical/clinical science has a huge umbrella overseeing this stuff....for example their concern would be whether a doctor would rightly diagnose and/or treat according to what they need....not to claim higher reimbursement.....

I agree. From what many members of the community of SDN have said, if this goes on your transcript, it is treated as an Institutional Action.

As many Adcom members have stated before, Actual Institutional Actions on a med school app are a death sentence.

There are instances on the forums of people having done academic dishonesty things, but said people were issued a warning and not an Institutional Action. Pray that this is the outcome of the hearing, because if it is a warning and the institution takes no action against you i.e. just gives you a warning to be expunged after graduation, you might not have to report it.

Be warned however, if the institution does take action against you, it is reported to your dean, or if this ends up on the transcript, it will be counted as an IA, and academic dishonesty IAs are a death sentence.

Talk to your prof. see if you can keep it between you and the prof.

 

[joeDO2]

Agree with others....your best chance here is to get a good outcome from the hearing. Explain yourself honestly as it does not seem your intent was malicious or intentional. Good luck to you.

 

[deleted621466]

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[Goro]

Not mine. Apparently you not only have ethical difficulties, you can't follow simple instructions.



With a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT score, is there any DO school that might overlook my integrity issue even if I stated on my application? Or should I simply look into Carribean school.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Am I understanding this correctly that you more or less used the same method of making a study guide (with your professor's permission) the first few times, then forgot to get a confirmation doing basically the same thing the last time and he sent you to the integrity office?

 

[zlyu]

I agree. From what many members of the community of SDN have said, if this goes on your transcript, it is treated as an Institutional Action.

As many Adcom members have stated before, Actual Institutional Actions on a med school app are a death sentence.

There are instances on the forums of people having done academic dishonesty things, but said people were issued a warning and not an Institutional Action. Pray that this is the outcome of the hearing, because if it is a warning and the institution takes no action against you i.e. just gives you a warning to be expunged after graduation, you might not have to report it.

Be warned however, if the institution does take action against you, it is reported to your dean, or if this ends up on the transcript, it will be counted as an IA, and academic dishonesty IAs are a death sentence.

Talk to your prof. see if you can keep it between you and the prof.

hmm so is a warning from school considered an institutional action?? just wondering.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I would fight this charge if I were you. What kind of professor lets you make study guides with previous questions but then says you're a cheater when you put a question that he/she doesn't like? If I were you, I'd find counsel. The sad truth, though, is that a charge of cheating will get you automatically dismissed.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

hmm so is a warning from school considered an institutional action?? just wondering.

I wouldn't consider a warning an institutional action. That's the point of it being a warning. They are saying "do this again and it's going on your record."

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Not mine. Apparently you not only have ethical difficulties, you can't follow simple instructions.



With a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT score, is there any DO school that might overlook my integrity issue even if I stated on my application? Or should I simply look into Carribean school.

But don't you think it's actually the professor that encourages this misunderstanding? He's letting you use previous questions, but only if they are the ones he likes. Besides, why would a TA want to intentionally cheat? I see this as a typical instance when professors abuse their power. He's basically bringing down the hammer, ruining his entire future career, because he created this scenario.

 

[wdoc]

But don't you think it's actually the professor that encourages this misunderstanding? He's letting you use previous questions, but only if they are the ones he likes. Besides, why would a TA want to intentionally cheat? I see this as a typical instance when professors abuse their power. He's basically bringing down the hammer, ruining his entire future career, because he created this scenario.

I agree, this case seems like the professor is exercising his power a bit too much (if we are getting the whole story).

It would probably be worth a shot to talk to the professor to try to resolve the issue, otherwise things aren't looking too good for you.

 

[Goro]

I think that there's more going on in the story than the OP is giving. What I'm gleaning is that the Prof said "don't do this" and OP ignored that, whether by intent or inattention. Either way, it appears to me that it's on OP's head.


"Although we have been making study guides that include test questions for the past quarters, the professor did not approve what has happened this quarter"

But don't you think it's actually the professor that encourages this misunderstanding? He's letting you use previous questions, but only if they are the ones he likes. Besides, why would a TA want to intentionally cheat? I see this as a typical instance when professors abuse their power. He's basically bringing down the hammer, ruining his entire future career, because he created this scenario.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I would fight this charge if I were you. What kind of professor lets you make study guides with previous questions but then says you're a cheater when you put a question that he/she doesn't like? If I were you, I'd find counsel. The sad truth, though, is that a charge of cheating will get you automatically dismissed.

Right, I have a similar perspective. Honestly in this day and age of Koofers, Online test banks, and frat houses, it's in my opinion the fault of the professor for reusing test questions that are in the previous exams. ( Most of professors actually at this point encourage the use of test banks because they really believe that extra practice with the material = you remembering it longer than the day of the test).

As I've said before, draconian policies on student ethical behavior that have less to do with protecting students and more to do with upholding a form of morality that exists disproportionally to protect the institution, harms the integrity and honor of higher education and it harms students. No student should be expelled or obtain an XF for failing to cite a source in a paper ( Unless this is active research, which case this is a huge issue. But obviously you're not publishing your 5 point paper on gender & society so who cares really if it was a genuine mistake?) and no student should receive an IA for having a friend who shared with them the previous year's exam ( Honestly when I came to my school I knew very few people and seeing people around me in frats who gave them old labs and etc it made me sad that I was disadvantaged. But honestly life and school is also about collaboration and building connections).

Obviously if someone is blatantly cheating on an exam they should be punished. But for a grey area like this, where the punishment is dealt because the TA has provided a variable that harms the professors intricate design to have grades fall into a bell curve with minimal skew has nothing to do with protecting student's or validating their efforts of taking the high road. It is all about the professor being pissed.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I think that there's more going on in the story than the OP is giving. What I'm gleaning is that the Prof said "don't do this" and OP ignored that, whether by intent or inattention. Either way, it appears to me that it's on OP's head.


"Although we have been making study guides that include test questions for the past quarters, the professor did not approve what has happened this quarter"

If there is more to this story, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but for the sake of not losing a good applicant (3.5/30), I'd want to investigate what the truth is.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Right, I have a similar perspective. Honestly in this day and age of Koofers, Online test banks, and frat houses, it's in my opinion the fault of the professor for reusing test questions that are in the previous exams. ( Most of professors actually at this point encourage the use of test banks because they really believe that extra practice with the material = you remembering it longer than the day of the test).

As I've said before, draconian policies on student ethical behavior that have less to do with protecting students and more to do with upholding a form of morality that exists disproportionally to protect the institution, harms the integrity and honor of higher education and it harms students. No student should be expelled or obtain an XF for failing to cite a source in a paper ( Unless this is active research, which case this is a huge issue. But obviously you're not publishing your 5 point paper on gender & society so who cares really if it was a genuine mistake?) and no student should receive an IA for having a friend who shared with them the previous year's exam.

Obviously if someone is blatantly cheating on an exam they should be punished. But for a grey area like this, where the punishment is dealt because the TA has provided a variable that harms the professors intricate design to have grades fall into a bell curve with minimal skew has nothing to do with protecting student's or validating their efforts of taking the high road. It is all about the professor being pissed.

I agree. I always found it curious how universities are pretty much the only type of business that takes their customer's money and get to screw them over too. Obviously some stuff has to be on the hands of universities (grading, ethics, etc.), but to actively do stuff that can harm their customer because of their pompousness is BS.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree. I always found it curious how universities are pretty much the only type of business that takes their customer's money and get to screw them over too. Obviously some stuff has to be on the hands of universities (grading, ethics, etc.), but to actively do stuff that can harm their customer because of their pompousness is BS.

The issue really comes down to a simple reality, higher education is more comfortable within the confines of the past that it is with accepting that things about the world and education have changed.

 

[Goro]

You've never bought a brand new car from a dealer, I take it?

I agree. I always found it curious how universities are pretty much the only type of business that takes their customer's money and get to screw them over too. Obviously some stuff has to be on the hands of universities (grading, ethics, etc.), but to actively do stuff that can harm their customer because of their pompousness is BS.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You've never bought a brand new car from a dealer, I take it?

Hahaha!! You win this round!

 

[deleted621466]

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[Goro]

This sounds like one you should fight all the way up to the level of University President.

Start with a complaint to the Professor's Chair. The Prof clearly was NOT doing his job. I think that this is winnable and it might be something that can disappear from your record. You should own the fact that your study guide was compromising your exam (which you wrote) but the Prof is the skipper of this boat, and it's his responsibility.

Hi Goro! To clarify the situation I'll explain a little more. So I have TA this class last year and I was told to make a study guide for the class. The study guide consisted of 70-100 open-ended questions as opposed to the real midterm, which was strictly multiple choice(~25-30questions). However, most or nearly all of the midterm questions can be found from the study guide i made since the study guide consisted a lot of concepts and questions. Moreover, the exams were made by the TAs, not by the professor. After I made the first study guide, all the TAs agreed in the TA meeting that it was okay and we even went through the study guide answers during review session. I personally asked the professor whether the study guide was fine and I forgot what his exact response was but he approved it. I assumed my study guide format was totally fine since the professor asked me to make another one for the second midterm. This year I am TAing the same class with the same professor again. I made a midterm study guide because students in my section were asking for one and I only handed to students in my section. The professor reported me to the AI and told me afterwards that he did not approve what has happened this quarter. I thought it had to do with me only handing those study guide to students in my section this year, but the professor said it was the fact that I made study guide that may contain possible questions from the test. And after talking with the professor, he told me that he had no idea that the study guide contained possible questions from the midterm last year and he did not look over the study guide I posted at all last year, and proceeded and told me to make another one.

The professor admitted that he was slacking off and it was also his fault for not following up with the TAs closely, but it was also my fault for violating academic dishonesty by giving out test questions in the study guide. I do agree with him that I should have asked him whether it was okay for me to make study guide this year. So now I have to go through AI review for this and chances are I might get academic dishonesty or academic dismissed but I will try to have the professor to be on my side at the AI review.

Honestly, this incident just shows me how unfair life is sometimes but also taught me the lesson to follow up and pay attention to all the details closely. I learned this in a hard way and I'm glad it happened now because I don't want to get sued and go to jail by patients in the future because I did not follow up closely with them. Things are not looking too good and I am just hoping that the AI does not grant me an academic dismissal. I will most likely be attending Carribean school afterwards if my degree did not get revoked. Luckily I have the best mother in the whole world, she told me that if my degree is revoked she will pay to help me restart another college career. Hopefully after 4-6 years Carribean schools will be able to grant me an admission and I will be working hard and become a passionate and successful physician. Finger crossed for the review and thanks everyone for the responses!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

OP, you should definitely not just take this and instead fight it. You will be severely disadvantaged by going to the Caribbean. Your entire career might be on the balance of what happened. Get help and fight this tooth and nail.

 

[GypsyHummus]

This sounds like one you should fight all the way up to the level of University President.

Start with a complaint to the Professor's Chair. The Prof clearly was NOT doing his job. I think that this is winnable and it might be something that can disappear from your record. You should own the fact that your study guide was compromising your exam (which you wrote) but the Prof is the skipper of this boat, and it's his responsibility.

If this incident goes on the transcript and is considered an Institutional Action, is the OP toast at all US schools?

 

[Goro]

At any med school that pre-screens, yes. But not all do.

If this incident goes on the transcript and is considered an Institutional Action, is the OP toast at all US schools?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

At any med school that pre-screens, yes. But not all do.

Do you think even those that don't screen might get the initial gut reaction that "there's more to this story" like you did? I think if that happens, OP is pretty much toast at almost every school.

 

[Goro]

Having seen this first-hand, it will depend upon the interview(s). Some people may accept her explanation at face value.

Do you think even those that don't screen might get the initial gut reaction that "there's more to this story" like you did? I think if that happens, OP is pretty much toast at almost every school.