academic medicine - job negotiation

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terriermed

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Gentleman,
I'm sipping on some Balvanie DoubleWood12 this snowy Saturday evening and hoping for your advice. I'm currently a fellow and have interviewed for an assistant professor position at a large academic medical center. I am one of two candidates. If I get the offer, I am starting to think about points of negotiation. I understand that there is often not much room for starting salary negotiation in academic medicine (but maybe a little?). However, what else should I be prepared for in potential negotiations? New scope? (do most hospitals just give you the scope of your predecessor or get you a new one?) Fancy objectives (suggestions)? Mounted camera? Protected time?

Would love to hear what you negotiated for, what you wish you would have tried for, and any advice on the process in academic medicine. Thanks, I appreciate your help.

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I am assuming you are not running a lab or expected to be 80% research and get a grant. If so, you need to ask for a lot more to start, like lab space and technician time, etc.

Otherwise: Office. Office renovations: paint, furniture, carpeting. Call duties. Possible cross-coverage of other services (frozens, on site evaluation, etc.). Start-up/discretionary fund. Travel/CME fund.

If you are inheriting a computer, scope and/or camera, ask for the specifications and make sure they are acceptable o/w ask for upgrades. Expect they will have you inherit this stuff so be sure it is not too old. Ask for the software you will need (Adobe, reference manager, GraphPad, etc.). You absolutely need these things to do your job.

Yes, verify protected time as specifically as possible. Verify teaching responsibilities.

For negotiation, (even if claimed to be "non-negotiable") you should attempt to ask for a minimal increase in base salary (like $5-$10k) that may or may not yield you anything. Say that is compatible with what your peers are being offered. Your best bet is to negotiate a start-up/discretionary fund so that you can order slides, immunos, etc. for publishable studies - you can't start out with nothing. You need to talk to recent hires to know what is culturally acceptable at that institution, but I would want $50k-$100k & absolutely not take anything less than $25k.

Once you start, expect to get nothing unless you earn it yourself. So be sure to have what you need to succeed.
 
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Thanks for your helpful advice. This is a primarily clinical job so don't need to get a lab up and running. Call duties, coverage, etc were all discussed. They mentioned rough amounts for much of the other information you described and said we could discuss more later if I get the offer, including research/discretionary fund (in line with the numbers you provided), annual academic fund, moving expenses, vacation, sick time, etc. If I get it, will still need to discuss office renos, scope, computer, software, and things of that nature.

Is it pretty standard to ask for new carpet, furniture, and paint in your office? I see how its reasonable but I could also see it coming across as snobby (having not done this before). Are all the negotiations you mentioned normally done spur of the moment, face to face with the chair (aka they bring you back to seal the deal and negotiate), or do they send you an offer and you get back to them with the changes you are requesting?

Would love to get more input from anyone else if willing. Especially interested to hear about what is standard for microscope and computer (aka inherited vs new). Thanks!

I am assuming you are not running a lab or expected to be 80% research and get a grant. If so, you need to ask for a lot more to start, like lab space and technician time, etc.

Otherwise: Office. Office renovations: paint, furniture, carpeting. Call duties. Possible cross-coverage of other services (frozens, on site evaluation, etc.). Start-up/discretionary fund. Travel/CME fund.

If you are inheriting a computer, scope and/or camera, ask for the specifications and make sure they are acceptable o/w ask for upgrades. Expect they will have you inherit this stuff so be sure it is not too old. Ask for the software you will need (Adobe, reference manager, GraphPad, etc.). You absolutely need these things to do your job.

Yes, verify protected time as specifically as possible. Verify teaching responsibilities.

For negotiation, (even if claimed to be "non-negotiable") you should attempt to ask for a minimal increase in base salary (like $5-$10k) that may or may not yield you anything. Say that is compatible with what your peers are being offered. Your best bet is to negotiate a start-up/discretionary fund so that you can order slides, immunos, etc. for publishable studies - you can't start out with nothing. You need to talk to recent hires to know what is culturally acceptable at that institution, but I would want $50k-$100k & absolutely not take anything less than $25k.

Once you start, expect to get nothing unless you earn it yourself. So be sure to have what you need to succeed.
 
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Especially interested to hear about what is standard for microscope and computer (aka inherited vs new). Thanks!

Outside of money and vacation/cme, the most important to me were a new scope and a stand up desk. I also asked for all apos as well. If they won't give a new scope atleast ask for all apo objectives. But I am not in academics and academics is full of stingy dept heads.
 
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Is it pretty standard to ask for new carpet, furniture, and paint in your office? I see how its reasonable but I could also see it coming across as snobby (having not done this before). Are all the negotiations you mentioned normally done spur of the moment, face to face with the chair (aka they bring you back to seal the deal and negotiate), or do they send you an offer and you get back to them with the changes you are requesting?

Yeah, you probably don't want to be the person that kept asking about a new carpet multiple times in person. Some of the smaller issues can be brought up if not addressed in person and/or negotiated once you're presented with a contract, if they aren't specified in the contract. It's not snobby to expect to have an office that is in good condition and the materials academic places aren't always the best. They may tell you Dr. ABC only used it for two years so it's as "good as new" but then you find out the carpet tile is coming up and that Dr. ABC liked really weird furniture.

As an aside, it also helps to know your office and parking spots aren't miles away from the lab or sign out room or other places you need to be during the day, unless you like the excuse to exercise.
 
I think it depends on what leverage you have. For my first job, I was a new graduate and the position was relatively prestigious (at least in the academic world), so I had no leverage. I asked for an increased salary, written confirmation of protected time, and for a few other minor changes to contract terms. There was no willingness to negotiate on any of that, and I was repeatedly told “this is our standard contract”. I knew that was BS, but—no leverage. I did successfully verbally negotiate a new microscope and a couple of other items with the chairman, but after I started they simply never gave me any of it despite being reminded repeatedly.

In the end, they didn’t give an inch, and that turned out to be predictive of the treatment I received from administration the entire time I worked there. What I got in return for the shoddy treatment was the name of the institution on my CV, which has worked out very well for me in the long run.
 
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Agree with suggestions by others to try and negotiate a slightly higher salary (5% or so is probably reasonable); I believe that is generally expected even if they won't give it to you.

I think verifying what kind of scope you will have is pretty standard too. I honestly have no idea if having plan, plan fluorites or apochromat objectives makes any noticeable difference for day to day work and/or for taking publication quality digital microscopic photos. I would think the photos would be more affected by the camera and software you are using, but it isn't my area of expertise. Asking about an adjustable sit/stand desk and what kind of computers, scope cameras, etc. is probably not unreasonable if done politely. I think trying to get new carpet, paint and other furniture might be going a bit far though. Didn't you get a tour of the department and get to see at least some of the pathologists' offices? Presumably this would give you a rough idea of what kind of shape things are in and whether it would be tolerable to you. If the majority of the offices have shiny new stuff and are freshly painted and they try to shove you in the janitor's closet, then at least casually asking about those upgrades might not be out of line. But if everyone else who has been there for years has been putting up with old furniture that is falling apart, I would consider it unlikely they would fix things up for you and you'll probably be perceived as whiny and privileged for asking about it at all.

Definitely try to ask about protected time for research and preparation for lectures/educational activities and try to get that in writing if possible. I think tiredguy's suggestion to find out what funding is available (and try to secure some) to pay for materials, IHC, FISH, molecular testing, etc. for research they will presumably be expecting you to churn out is also a good idea.

Unfortunately, most of the people I know who took an academic job right out of training had zero leverage and ended up with a situation just like LoaLoa described, so it might not matter.
 
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Speaking of scotch, does anyone really like Islay scotch? Seriously. Its like eating an entire bowl of black licorice, you could but why?

But in terms of Speyside, Balvenie is good but Macallan is better, always. Although now with the double wood Balvenie you have me intrigued.

Main point: has anyone had Winter Storm??
WinterStorm_Hea_1506541889.jpg
 
Only storm I've had is Talisker, which is an Island scotch but not as harsh as Laphroig / other Islays.
Prefer the Speyside (Macallan 18 or Aberlour) but Oban 18 is a good highland.
 
Well we agree on something, also not a fan of Islay and especially not a fan of Laphroaig. But the Bruichladdich, also from Islay has always been good.
 
The peaty scotches are an acquired taste. Still not all the way there yet myself. Balvenie Double wood is a great value proposition. I think its better than Mac 12, probably not Mac 18. Highland Park 12 is another great one for the price. But I'm still a fellow - give me a few years of attending pay and I'll break into some more expensive 18s and report back...

Speaking of scotch, does anyone really like Islay scotch? Seriously. Its like eating an entire bowl of black licorice, you could but why?

But in terms of Speyside, Balvenie is good but Macallan is better, always. Although now with the double wood Balvenie you have me intrigued.

Main point: has anyone had Winter Storm??
WinterStorm_Hea_1506541889.jpg
 
Leverage depends on how good you are/your skill set(s)/how much they want you. If the institution is looking out for itself and is playing the game smart, the institution will hold their cards close to their chest and in this situation, you will not know how much leverage you have.

Your leverage can be influenced by whether you have other offers. That is probably your strongest negotiation tool at this point. That being said, I suspect your leverage may be limited since you said you are one of two candidates being considered. I remember encountering this language when applying to a faculty position at an “elite” department on the east coast when I was told, “you are one of our top two candidates” even though I knew from an insider that I was the top candidate. It’s a tongue in cheek way of implying they have the upper hand and can play to your fears especially if you don’t have any other offers. Not sure if this applies to you but figured I mention this.

It never hurts to ask for things because this is the one shot you have to ask for things. If you don’t ask, they will not give it to you.

A few things to look into and ask for include but are not limited to:

1. Startup package - I asked for startup funds but did not specify amount. This is important for you to help get off the ground running during the first year of your job circumventing the need to dwell over applying for funding while you adjust to the first year of being an attending (which is hard enough as it is). I ended up getting more than $200000 split over the first few years of my appointment. I was flattered but learned after joining that I was not the only one who got this. I got this because I asked for it.

2. Signing bonus - you can present this as helping with your move and getting off the ground running in terms of your personal transition to the area you are moving to.

3. Language regarding protected time in the offer letter or contract. Not sure what they are willing to give you and hard to enforce at the end. This is because at some point, if there is a short staffing situation, your service time will go up anyway.

4. Increase in salary - hard to pull off unless you have other competing offers. If successful, whatever increase you are able to negotiate will be modest anyway. But worth a shot.

5. Relocation assistance - moving costs, help with getting your old place off your hands (if you bought property during training)...the latter is a long shot and likely an impossibility.

When you ask for things, do so respectfully and try not to come across as a dick. But at the same time, you don’t want to come across as a limp noodle too. It’s a hard balance and I don’t claim to be an expert at this since I only had to go through this negotiation once when going through the process of securing my previous first job straight out of training.

Good luck!



Gentleman,
I'm sipping on some Balvanie DoubleWood12 this snowy Saturday evening and hoping for your advice. I'm currently a fellow and have interviewed for an assistant professor position at a large academic medical center. I am one of two candidates. If I get the offer, I am starting to think about points of negotiation. I understand that there is often not much room for starting salary negotiation in academic medicine (but maybe a little?). However, what else should I be prepared for in potential negotiations? New scope? (do most hospitals just give you the scope of your predecessor or get you a new one?) Fancy objectives (suggestions)? Mounted camera? Protected time?

Would love to hear what you negotiated for, what you wish you would have tried for, and any advice on the process in academic medicine. Thanks, I appreciate your help.
 
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I'm applying for private practice, but since people are discussing negotiations here I thought I'd ask for advice. I have an offer sheet from a place where the pathologists are employed. I'm waiting to go back and review the actual contract with them. I was told, and as far as I can tell, everything is equal between all members of the group (pay, vacation/benefits, workload). The pay seems entirely reasonable and probably more than most would get coming out of fellowship. I'll show the contract to a lawyer just to make sure all the t's are crossed and i's are dotted, but really I would be happy just taking it as is if everything matches the offer sheet. And unless there are hidden perks I would feel weird asking for something else if everyone really is equal. Is there anything worth negotiating if for no other reason than to not appear like a pushover? I was thinking of asking for an adjustable standing desk or maybe a new scope or something.
 
I'm applying for private practice, but since people are discussing negotiations here I thought I'd ask for advice. I have an offer sheet from a place where the pathologists are employed. I'm waiting to go back and review the actual contract with them. I was told, and as far as I can tell, everything is equal between all members of the group (pay, vacation/benefits, workload). The pay seems entirely reasonable and probably more than most would get coming out of fellowship. I'll show the contract to a lawyer just to make sure all the t's are crossed and i's are dotted, but really I would be happy just taking it as is if everything matches the offer sheet. And unless there are hidden perks I would feel weird asking for something else if everyone really is equal. Is there anything worth negotiating if for no other reason than to not appear like a pushover? I was thinking of asking for an adjustable standing desk or maybe a new scope or something.

I think if you're going for an employed position (as both an entry level and a "partner" level), you don't have a ton of negotiation power...and might need to go through administration to get things approved. Though if you're an employee of the hospital both as a "new employee" and as a "partner employee", the hospital may have some malleable incentive programs...I interviewed with a hospital group that had a much higher than expected starting salary but still a good $100k less than "partner employees"...the track was 3 yrs but to make up the difference the hospital offered a "med school loan repayment" incentive that increased over the 3 years, something like $10k yr 1, $25k yr 2, and $50k yr 3...better than nothing, hospital still pocketing the difference between the new pathologist and the retiring pathologist to the tune of a few hundred thousand, so IMO practices that are hospital owned should--if they're not complete a-holes--have some minor incentives...one time $50 or $100k, particularly if spread out over a few years, is nothing to them, whether they act like it is or not.
 
I think if you're going for an employed position (as both an entry level and a "partner" level), you don't have a ton of negotiation power...and might need to go through administration to get things approved. Though if you're an employee of the hospital both as a "new employee" and as a "partner employee", the hospital may have some malleable incentive programs...I interviewed with a hospital group that had a much higher than expected starting salary but still a good $100k less than "partner employees"...the track was 3 yrs but to make up the difference the hospital offered a "med school loan repayment" incentive that increased over the 3 years, something like $10k yr 1, $25k yr 2, and $50k yr 3...better than nothing, hospital still pocketing the difference between the new pathologist and the retiring pathologist to the tune of a few hundred thousand, so IMO practices that are hospital owned should--if they're not complete a-holes--have some minor incentives...one time $50 or $100k, particularly if spread out over a few years, is nothing to them, whether they act like it is or not.

Since I am a graduating fellow there is a stipulation that for my first year my workload is lower with the same proportion of reduced pay. After that I should be on par with everyone else. My position is opening due to expansion rather than retirement so the hospital won't gain any gap salary. They are offering some money for relocation fees, but that's the only "new employee" incentive I saw in the offer sheet. I could ask about some kind of loan repayment incentive; that's a good idea.
 
Since I am a graduating fellow there is a stipulation that for my first year my workload is lower with the same proportion of reduced pay. After that I should be on par with everyone else. My position is opening due to expansion rather than retirement so the hospital won't gain any gap salary. They are offering some money for relocation fees, but that's the only "new employee" incentive I saw in the offer sheet. I could ask about some kind of loan repayment incentive; that's a good idea.
If your volume / responsibility is reduced for 1 year then you gain volume & pay both to be on par with your partners, that seems quite reasonable, more so than most...loan repayment incentives offered through the hospital would be either routine for new recruits or limited to high-demand specialties...being path you're unequivocally NOT high demand, and unless you can discern that they routinely offer new recruits some sort of loan-repayment benefit (might depend on your location / how rural you are), i wouldn't press too hard, but worth at least inquiring.
 
If your volume / responsibility is reduced for 1 year then you gain volume & pay both to be on par with your partners, that seems quite reasonable, more so than most...loan repayment incentives offered through the hospital would be either routine for new recruits or limited to high-demand specialties...being path you're unequivocally NOT high demand, and unless you can discern that they routinely offer new recruits some sort of loan-repayment benefit (might depend on your location / how rural you are), i wouldn't press too hard, but worth at least inquiring.

Yeah everything seems so reasonable that it's making me skeptical and wondering what the catch is. I do know the pathologists are overworked based on their comments during the interview and RVU comparisons the chairman quoted, but that's why they're hiring. We'll see what the nitty-gritty of the contract reveals when I give it to a lawyer.
 
Hi all, reviving this thread from the spring for a related question. This is in reference to academics, but feel free to chime in with your experience in PP too. Once you've been given a job offer and want to begin negotiating the details of the position, what is the most appropriate way to do this? Travel to them (<2 hrs away) and do it in person, discuss by phone, or discuss by email? Obviously some rote details can easily worked out by email, but when it comes to asking for more money, new microscope, etc, do you think it comes across better and/or would be more effective to do it face to face? Email almost seems a little tacky for this, but maybe that is just the way it goes. Thanks for your input!
 
Yeah everything seems so reasonable that it's making me skeptical and wondering what the catch is. I do know the pathologists are overworked based on their comments during the interview and RVU comparisons the chairman quoted, but that's why they're hiring. We'll see what the nitty-gritty of the contract reveals when I give it to a lawyer.

What kind of RVUs would you expect after getting a full load? Working twice as hard for an average salary might be a crappy position.
Also, there is more to happiness in a practice than salary. Are the other folks nice to work with? Do they appear content....etc ?
 
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