Academics vs PP...how to choose?

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Also called incentive pay here. Who cares what they call it? Better than NOT getting paid for that time.

It's not so much that I care what they call it, it just surprises me how many of my colleagues have been tricked into seeing it as a "bonus" or "perk". Is your base salary is $250k, and your overtime kicks in at 4pm (this is the case here), that means the institution values your 7-4pm workday (assuming a 5d workweek) at roughly $120 per hour, which is disgraceful. But many of my colleagues don't look at it that way, because their paycheck at the end of the year is north of $300k. It's an accounting trick designed to extract maximum productivity for the smallest amount of money.
 
It's not so much that I care what they call it, it just surprises me how many of my colleagues have been tricked into seeing it as a "bonus" or "perk". Is your base salary is $250k, and your overtime kicks in at 4pm (this is the case here), that means the institution values your 7-4pm workday (assuming a 5d workweek) at roughly $120 per hour, which is disgraceful. But many of my colleagues don't look at it that way, because their paycheck at the end of the year is north of $300k. It's an accounting trick designed to extract maximum productivity for the smallest amount of money.

If your base salary is 350 and your "incentive" is 200/hr after 530, would that change your mind?
 
It's not so much that I care what they call it, it just surprises me how many of my colleagues have been tricked into seeing it as a "bonus" or "perk". Is your base salary is $250k, and your overtime kicks in at 4pm (this is the case here), that means the institution values your 7-4pm workday (assuming a 5d workweek) at roughly $120 per hour, which is disgraceful. But many of my colleagues don't look at it that way, because their paycheck at the end of the year is north of $300k. It's an accounting trick designed to extract maximum productivity for the smallest amount of money.

in the relatively free market of private practice, none of our time between 7 and 3 is valued very highly because there are people out there that will work it for very little compensation (relatively speaking). I mean I could probably hire 5 docs to work 7-3 M-F for $250K per year if we needed those jobs (but we don't). Trying to hire people to work the bad hours costs a lot more because fewer people are willing/wanting to do it.
 
If your base salary is 350 and your "incentive" is 200/hr after 530, would that change your mind?

No! That's still only $144 per hour, using the same figures I used in my previous example. Yes the base is higher, but the "workday" it covers is longer, so it's not actually as big a difference as it looks.

Of course, these are back of the napkin calculations that assume every day you're working is 730a to 530p, which we know isn't true, but it illustrates the concept.

I'd rather be paid a fair, flat salary for a defined amount of work, which describes the job I took, but finding it involved some sacrifices on the location front.
 
No! That's still only $144 per hour, using the same figures I used in my previous example. Yes the base is higher, but the "workday" it covers is longer, so it's not actually as big a difference as it looks.

Of course, these are back of the napkin calculations that assume every day you're working is 730a to 530p, which we know isn't true, but it illustrates the concept.

I'd rather be paid a fair, flat salary for a defined amount of work, which describes the job I took, but finding it involved some sacrifices on the location front.
Touché!
 
in the relatively free market of private practice, none of our time between 7 and 3 is valued very highly because there are people out there that will work it for very little compensation (relatively speaking). I mean I could probably hire 5 docs to work 7-3 M-F for $250K per year if we needed those jobs (but we don't). Trying to hire people to work the bad hours costs a lot more because fewer people are willing/wanting to do it.

But it is all billed the same except for modifiers.
 
But it is all billed the same except for modifiers.

billing has nothing to do with what you can find someone willing to work for.

If we paid based off collections, you'd make all the money 7-3 M-F and get paid almost nothing for nights and weekends. Alas in a specialty like ours it is providing the 24/7 coverage that allows you to have the contract to get paid during the profitable daylight hours.
 
It's not so much that I care what they call it, it just surprises me how many of my colleagues have been tricked into seeing it as a "bonus" or "perk". Is your base salary is $250k, and your overtime kicks in at 4pm (this is the case here), that means the institution values your 7-4pm workday (assuming a 5d workweek) at roughly $120 per hour, which is disgraceful. But many of my colleagues don't look at it that way, because their paycheck at the end of the year is north of $300k. It's an accounting trick designed to extract maximum productivity for the smallest amount of money.

While this is true, having worked in academics in a system without after hours compensation, I can see the appeal. In academics there are multiple forces that can keep you late on any given day. Surgeon lets the med student close for 30 mins, nurses take 45 mins to turn over a room, surgeon shows up an hour late because they had a meeting and didn’t tell anyone, room sits empty in the morning and starts at 2 pm because surgeon had clinic, all of this occurs on the regular and is tolerated by the administration. There is nothing more infuriating than sitting around waiting to do a non-urgent add on at 430 pm knowing that everyone there will get something out of it (nurse overtime, CRNA hourly rate, surgeons on RVU model, hospital facility fee, not to mention they keep the anesthesia billing) except you, the employed, salaried anesthesiologist. It makes the hospital view your time as inherently less valuable. At least when there’s an after hours rate it forces the hospital to think twice about their inefficiencies and indeed as the COVID crunch has dragged on we have seen the administration start to reevaluate how much inefficiency they are willing to tolerate precisely because of personnel costs. Whether this continues when the pandemic is over remains to be seen.
 
billing has nothing to do with what you can find someone willing to work for.

If we paid based off collections, you'd make all the money 7-3 M-F and get paid almost nothing for nights and weekends. Alas in a specialty like ours it is providing the 24/7 coverage that allows you to have the contract to get paid during the profitable daylight hours.


Exactly. Asa4 Medicare add ons don’t pay the bills.
 
While this is true, having worked in academics in a system without after hours compensation, I can see the appeal. In academics there are multiple forces that can keep you late on any given day. Surgeon lets the med student close for 30 mins, nurses take 45 mins to turn over a room, surgeon shows up an hour late because they had a meeting and didn’t tell anyone, room sits empty in the morning and starts at 2 pm because surgeon had clinic, all of this occurs on the regular and is tolerated by the administration. There is nothing more infuriating than sitting around waiting to do a non-urgent add on at 430 pm knowing that everyone there will get something out of it (nurse overtime, CRNA hourly rate, surgeons on RVU model, hospital facility fee, not to mention they keep the anesthesia billing) except you, the employed, salaried anesthesiologist. It makes the hospital view your time as inherently less valuable. At least when there’s an after hours rate it forces the hospital to think twice about their inefficiencies and indeed as the COVID crunch has dragged on we have seen the administration start to reevaluate how much inefficiency they are willing to tolerate precisely because of personnel costs. Whether this continues when the pandemic is over remains to be seen.

I disagree. Your after hours time likely does generate 150-200 per hour minimum. They are probably pocketing money off your billable hours, not worrying about how to pay you.
 
I disagree. Your after hours time likely does generate 150-200 per hour minimum. They are probably pocketing money off your billable hours, not worrying about how to pay you.

I agree they’re still making money, otherwise they wouldn’t allow it. But I’d rather they give us some of it rather than keeping the whole thing. And if the reason the case is going late is that the room was inefficient all day, it behooves them to work on the inefficiencies so they don’t find themselves starting cases that late in the first place.
 
It comes down to your tolerance to burnout and whether you value time or money more. You make more money in PP but the work can get exhausting with long hours. I just started PP and am already starting to feel the burn out.
Also just started PP and feel the burn out. I even took a non partner track to opt out of calls, at the expense of working harder during the week.
 
Also just started PP and feel the burn out. I even took a non partner track to opt out of calls, at the expense of working harder during the week.
How many hours are you working per week? Also, do you do your own case or supervise? If supervision, how many rooms, and what type of cases?
 
How many hours are you working per week? Also, do you do your own case or supervise? If supervision, how many rooms, and what type of cases?
I get in at 6, usually out between 4-430 x5 days a week. Solo cases 99% of the time. If Supervising 3 or 4:1. Tons of joints doing blocks and spinals with the usual bread and butter gen surg add ons. Generally responsible for my own breaks and lunches, which many days equates to not having them.
 
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I get in at 6, usually out between 4-430 x5 days a week. Solo cases 99% of the time. If Supervising 3 or 4:1. Tons of joints doing blocks and spinals with the usual bread and butter gen surg add ons. Generally responsible for my own breaks and lunches, which many days equates to not having them.

What kinda $ at that gig? If it was a production based blended unit scheme you’d be KILLING it. Instead, something tells me you’re lining someone else’s pockets.
 
I get in at 6, usually out between 4-430 x5 days a week. Solo cases 99% of the time. If Supervising 3 or 4:1. Tons of joints doing blocks and spinals with the usual bread and butter gen surg add ons. Generally responsible for my own breaks and lunches, which many days equates to not having them.

Having a sched like this is way more brutal imo than taking call and having a somewhat early out pre-call day and being off (or early out) your post-call day
 
Brutal? Guy works maybe 50 hours a week and gets out at 4 pm. Also why are you getting in at 6? OR starts at 615?
 
What kinda $ at that gig? If it was a production based blended unit scheme you’d be KILLING it. Instead, something tells me you’re lining someone else’s pockets.
330 and definitely the latter apparently. Salaried.
 
Brutal? Guy works maybe 50 hours a week and gets out at 4 pm. Also why are you getting in at 6? OR starts at 615?
Who said it was brutal? It totally sounds like a grind tho. A move the meat, go, go, go, you aren’t moving fast enough kind of place.
Apparently it’s ok for us to just work, work and never eat/drink/pee/poop as long as we are making good money.

Terrible mentality that leads to burnout.
 
330 and definitely the latter apparently. Salaried.
Yeah no one is gonna hand you these kind of cases with good insurance in PP either. The partners will take these cases and line their pockets while leaving you with all the Medicare/Medicaid cases and emergencies.
And once you pay your dues and maybe make partner, you can possibly get these kind of cases.
A lot of it is shenanigans.
 
330 and definitely the latter apparently. Salaried.

It’s probably on-par for day docs. You get benefits I hope.

At least you’re doing your own cases, 99%.

I don’t mind warming chairs. What if you drag your feet? Or you have to finish your room?

I think it’s about the right price for NE. Especially you’re doing your own cases, which I personally value at a large premium.
 
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