Accepted to schools with extremely low MCAT

[DO2015CA]

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If the MCAT was more indicative of medical school success, I'd agree with all the complainers here. I had a friend with an ever-so-slightly higher score than the OP do above average in medical school. Not terrible, not stellar, just pretty good.

OP can do perfectly fine.

Although, I'm extremely curious which schools he was accepted to!

Yes, use an anecdotal story to tear apart statistics...

Mcat does predict up to a 24 mcat (old scale). The correlation breaks down after a 24 and competition is driving the higher scores. It says you are at a higher risk of failing boards. It did not say everyone will fail

 

[SurgDoc95]

Yes, use an anecdotal story to tear apart statistics...

Mcat does predict up to a 24 mcat (old scale). The correlation breaks down after a 24 and competition is driving the higher scores. It says you are at a higher risk of failing boards. It did not say everyone will fail

I remember getting completely torn apart for espousing this exact sentiment. There’s a reason that schools require the MCAT and that they have minimum requirements for even looking at your application. It’s not some system out to get you. It’s in place so that you as a student don’t fail out of medical school and accrue hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt you can’t pay off and that the schools attrition rate doesn’t sky rocket. Sure there are those who are the exception to the rule but most people with sub 495 scores would not do very well in medical school. Especially those with sub par GPAs as well. Feel free to rip me apart


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[Robin-jay]

Yes, use an anecdotal story to tear apart statistics...

Mcat does predict up to a 24 mcat (old scale). The correlation breaks down after a 24 and competition is driving the higher scores. It says you are at a higher risk of failing boards. It did not say everyone will fail

You should consider more factors.

For example, I believe the OP has a masters degree, maybe that has a better, or maybe even a worse influence on board exams. Similar to MCAT questions, don't fall into the trap of only looking at studies (applicants in this case) in one single area.

While it is obvious that someone doing worse on the MCAT would have a higher potential to not do well on standardized tests, the way to measure why students score low on medical school tests is infinitely more complex than "low MCAT = "x" percentage of failing boards".

Point is, take statistics with a grain of salt.

That's why Admission Committees look at applicants holistically (granted you meet their minimum requirements).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

For example, I believe the OP has a masters degree, maybe that has a better, or maybe even a worse influence on board exams.

You are going to be shocked at how little your masters degree helps with anything in med school.

Anything below a 24 indicates a higher risk of not being able to pass boards or handle medical school. No saying that they will definitely fail, or screw it up but that they have a higher risk of doing so and schools have every right to decide that is a risk they don't want to take. And I have seen this personally as I attend a school that admits a decent number of students with very low scores, they almost all struggle and I worry about what will become of them come board time.

 

[Robin-jay]

You are going to be shocked at how little your masters degree helps with anything in med school.

Anything below a 24 indicates a higher risk of not being able to pass boards or handle medical school. No saying that they will definitely fail, or screw it up but that they have a higher risk of doing so and schools have every right to decide that is a risk they don't want to take. And I have seen this personally as I attend a school that admits a decent number of students with very low scores, they almost all struggle and I worry about what will become of them come board time.

I agree they have a higher risk of failing boards

But I also believe only looking at this one aspect of the applicant is a huge mistake, and his stats one way or another proved to admission committees that he can handle the boards.

So while many admission committees members agree with you (many school have cutoffs way higher than 492), many admission committees agree with me that this isn't the only/most significant indicator (whatever school he was accepted to).

Although I do have to admit, BCOM has a cutoff of 493 I believe, most places like LUCOM, LECOM, etc. have cutoffs of 497-501. So whatever school he was accepted to, beats me.

 

[SurgDoc95]

I agree they have a higher risk of failing boards

But I also believe only looking at this one aspect of the applicant is a huge mistake, and his stats one way or another proved to admission committees that he can handle the boards.

So while many admission committees members agree with you (many school have cutoffs way higher than 492), many admission committees agree with me that this isn't the only/most significant indicator (whatever school he was accepted to).

Although I do have to admit, BCOM has a cutoff of 493 I believe, most places like LUCOM, LECOM, etc. have cutoffs of 497-501. So whatever school he was accepted to, beats me.

Those admissions committees that accepted him, 2 I believe, is it possible they had a rather slim applicant pool to pick from? I’m not trying to be a negative nelly, but if a school takes an applicant with a 492 over one with a 505, assuming similar applications overall, they need to re-evaluate their process. Yes the MCAT is not the end all be all, but there is a serious risk taken on by the school that admits someone with that low of a score.


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[Robin-jay]

Those admissions committees that accepted him, 2 I believe, is it possible they had a rather slim applicant pool to pick from? I’m not trying to be a negative nelly, but if a school takes an applicant with a 492 over one with a 505, assuming similar applications overall, they need to re-evaluate their process. Yes the MCAT is not the end all be all, but there is a serious risk taken on by the school that admits someone with that low of a score.


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I personally haven't seen pools that are so small that they have to resort to pulling people with a 492, with only a masters (so even if its not entirely a big deal, its still a consideration).

However, the OP may have been:

1.) In-state

2.) Some amazing EC he didn't share

3.) Perhaps had good alumni links to that school

Based on what the OP has said earlier in the thread, it could be one of these.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So while many admission committees members agree with you (many school have cutoffs way higher than 492), many admission committees agree with me that this isn't the only/most significant indicator (whatever school he was accepted to).

No one ever said that it was the only indicator, but to think it isn't one of the most important academic indicators is disingenuous.

The fact that so few of these applicants get accepted shows how much adcoms are adverse to this risk and how heavily they weigh it in their consideration.

 

[DO2015CA]

You should consider more factors.

For example, I believe the OP has a masters degree, maybe that has a better, or maybe even a worse influence on board exams. Similar to MCAT questions, don't fall into the trap of only looking at studies (applicants in this case) in one single area.

While it is obvious that someone doing worse on the MCAT would have a higher potential to not do well on standardized tests, the way to measure why students score low on medical school tests is infinitely more complex than "low MCAT = "x" percentage of failing boards".

Point is, take statistics with a grain of salt.

That's why Admission Committees look at applicants holistically (granted you meet their minimum requirements).

Have you taken boards yet?

 

[DO2015CA]

I personally haven't seen pools that are so small that they have to resort to pulling people with a 492, with only a masters (so even if its not entirely a big deal, its still a consideration).

However, the OP may have been:

1.) In-state

2.) Some amazing EC he didn't share

3.) Perhaps had good alumni links to that school

Based on what the OP has said earlier in the thread, it could be one of these.

You are jumping to defend the OPs right to get in where no one is saying they don’t belong. It was a simple statement that they are at risk of failing boards based on stats.

It wasn’t too long ago that the average DO stats were low 20s. The fact is schools pick the best they can from the apps they’re given. This person no doubt has something amazing about them that allowed them to still be accepted, but don’t kid yourself into thinking the mcat doesn’t correlate to board failures.

 

[Betabet]

You're celebrating now but wait when you start biochemistry your first week. Your professor will expect everyone to be fairly competent in many of these pathways and will probably start lecture discussing how Diabetes affects glycolysis.
I say this not to demean or troll but to tell you that you have to work hard irregardless of your MCAT score and the professors will hold everyone to the same standard, those who score in the bottom and top 25th percentile.

Lol. First day of biochem I didn't even remember what hexokinase was. Just look that up before class OP and you'll already be better off than I was.

 

[Mr. D.O.five]

I remember getting completely torn apart for espousing this exact sentiment. There’s a reason that schools require the MCAT and that they have minimum requirements for even looking at your application. It’s not some system out to get you. It’s in place so that you as a student don’t fail out of medical school and accrue hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt you can’t pay off and that the schools attrition rate doesn’t sky rocket. Sure there are those who are the exception to the rule but most people with sub 495 scores would not do very well in medical school. Especially those with sub par GPAs as well. Feel free to rip me apart


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True, there should be a minimum standard as in the case for most schools (with some exceptions) but there is a strong correlation with very low MCAT scores and failing out of med school. I think once students are past that range, it can go either way. Anecdotal, but I know one of our fellow classmates (yeah, I'm an M1 at the same school as you lol), who was 4 points below our classes MCAT average, but is currently in the top 5% in ranking (idk if that will change with MSK ololol). I know people with really high MCAT scores (like 515+) who are also doing really well, and people with above average MCAT scores (like ~510) who are slightly below 50% percentile in class ranking. Yeah, but I do agree there should be "standards" in evaluating the numbers of the applicant before going forward with looking at the applicant as a whole, just to prevent the possibility of failing out or not doing well in boards.

 

[Kleimanb]

Congrats, OP. Test-taking abilities shouldn't define you ability to practice as a doctor. Work hard, ace the boards and prove everyone wrong.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Congrats, OP. Test-taking abilities shouldn't define you ability to practice as a doctor. Work hard, ace the boards and prove everyone wrong.

Except that the boards require test taking abilities and are harder than the MCAT...


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[Kleimanb]

Except that the boards require test taking abilities and are harder than the MCAT...


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To my point of saying work hard, and prove everyone wrong. Clearly schools saw immense value in OP as a person and in other parts of his application that gave them the impression this kid has potential to be a great physician. OP scored poorly on his MCAT. If his test-taking abilities are less than par, he will have to work harder to perform well on his boards. I don't see the constructive value in telling OP that he has a lesser chance of success to become a physician because of his MCAT score. OP knows that this is a deficit needed to be worked on. I don't see why encouragement is frowned upon.

 

[SurgDoc95]

To my point of saying work hard, and prove everyone wrong. Clearly schools saw immense value in OP as a person and in other parts of his application that gave them the impression this kid has potential to be a great physician. OP scored poorly on his MCAT. If his test-taking abilities are less than par, he will have to work harder to perform well on his boards. I don't see the constructive value in telling OP that he has a lesser chance of success to become a physician because of his MCAT score. OP knows that this is a deficit needed to be worked on. I don't see why encouragement is frowned upon.

No one is saying that encouragement isn't of value for OP. What myself and others have a problem with is creating the notion that scoring poorly on the MCAT (you can argue those of us who scored under 505 scored poorly) does not put you at a proven risk for failing out. Medical school is taxing on your mind, body, and spirit. If you don't possess the mental wherewithal to digest the large volume of material you have no business being there. It has nothing to do with wanting OP to fail, I sincerely hope he becomes a phenomenal physician, and everything to do with the harsh realities that face someone who drops out of medical school because either they weren't properly prepared or don't have the mental capacity to succeed. Pre-Meds in particular have a wide eyed starry notion that once they get into medical school everything will be fine and that's simply not the case. In my class we've already had a few people drop out because of the sheer rigor of being a medical student. Nobody likes to hear what the realities of being in medical school are because its too "negative", but maybe we should start laying the harsh facts out there so we can potentially avert the financial and personal disasters that come with failing out of school.

I'll end my tirade by saying if you're someone reading this who I managed to offend because you're in the same boat, I truly hope you prove me wrong. Use it as a little existential motivation to prove people wrong to help you achieve your goals!

 

[DO2015CA]

No one is saying that encouragement isn't of value for OP. What myself and others have a problem with is creating the notion that scoring poorly on the MCAT (you can argue those of us who scored under 505 scored poorly) does not put you at a proven risk for failing out. Medical school is taxing on your mind, body, and spirit. If you don't possess the mental wherewithal to digest the large volume of material you have no business being there. It has nothing to do with wanting OP to fail, I sincerely hope he becomes a phenomenal physician, and everything to do with the harsh realities that face someone who drops out of medical school because either they weren't properly prepared or don't have the mental capacity to succeed. Pre-Meds in particular have a wide eyed starry notion that once they get into medical school everything will be fine and that's simply not the case. In my class we've already had a few people drop out because of the sheer rigor of being a medical student. Nobody likes to hear what the realities of being in medical school are because its too "negative", but maybe we should start laying the harsh facts out there so we can potentially avert the financial and personal disasters that come with failing out of school.

I'll end my tirade by saying if you're someone reading this who I managed to offend because you're in the same boat, I truly hope you prove me wrong. Use it as a little existential motivation to prove people wrong to help you achieve your goals!

Also, look at his avatar.

All jokes aside. I think that giving someone an understanding of the seriousness of failing out of school is important. American medical schools will do everything they can to keep you there. So we aren’t saying not to go. Just to work extra hard once you’re there because of the higher risk.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Also, look at his avatar.

All jokes aside. I think that giving someone an understanding of the seriousness of failing out of school is important. American medical schools will do everything they can to keep you there. So we aren’t saying not to go. Just to work extra hard once you’re there because of the higher risk.

Haha does it give away my feelings on being offended?


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[ATR826]

My science and cumulative GPA were both ~3.4. Again, nothing spectacular

How did you convince them that you would succeed in medical school with those scores? Same boat as you so just curious.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

No one is saying that encouragement isn't of value for OP. What myself and others have a problem with is creating the notion that scoring poorly on the MCAT (you can argue those of us who scored under 505 scored poorly) does not put you at a proven risk for failing out. Medical school is taxing on your mind, body, and spirit. If you don't possess the mental wherewithal to digest the large volume of material you have no business being there. It has nothing to do with wanting OP to fail, I sincerely hope he becomes a phenomenal physician, and everything to do with the harsh realities that face someone who drops out of medical school because either they weren't properly prepared or don't have the mental capacity to succeed. Pre-Meds in particular have a wide eyed starry notion that once they get into medical school everything will be fine and that's simply not the case. In my class we've already had a few people drop out because of the sheer rigor of being a medical student. Nobody likes to hear what the realities of being in medical school are because its too "negative", but maybe we should start laying the harsh facts out there so we can potentially avert the financial and personal disasters that come with failing out of school.

I'll end my tirade by saying if you're someone reading this who I managed to offend because you're in the same boat, I truly hope you prove me wrong. Use it as a little existential motivation to prove people wrong to help you achieve your goals!

What percentage of failing out would you be considered too high for comfort? Using data from AAMC he has a 6% of failing out. Yes, OP has a statistically higher chance of failing out.... But at 6% I wouldn't bring the word "risk" into the conversation or even really waste my energy on it. The value that you are placing on the MCAT is unfounded. A 498+ means you will pass your steps (high percentage even for first-time takers) so the argument of "just wait until they have to pass their boards" shouldn't be brought up as a rebuttal... Doctors need to be bright and sharp students no doubt... But the intellectual prowess you're saying is needed for success in medical school just isn't true.

https://www.aamc.org/download/462756/data/oldmcatguide.pdf

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/2016-Annual-Conference/how-valid-the-mcat.pdf?sfvrsn=4

 

[SurgDoc95]

What percentage of failing out would you be considered too high for comfort? Using data from AAMC he has a 6% of failing out. Yes, OP has a statistically higher chance of failing out.... But at 6% I wouldn't bring the word "risk" into the conversation or even really waste my energy on it. The value that you are placing on the MCAT is unfounded. A 498+ means you will pass your steps (high percentage even for first-time takers) so the argument of "just wait until they have to pass their boards" shouldn't be brought up as a rebuttal... Doctors need to be bright and sharp students no doubt... But the intellectual prowess you're saying is needed for success in medical school just isn't true.

https://www.aamc.org/download/462756/data/oldmcatguide.pdf

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/2016-Annual-Conference/how-valid-the-mcat.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Okay for starters the OP had a 492 not a 498. That’s a difference of being in the bottom 26% of all test takers vs just shy of the 50th percentile. I don’t doubt those with a 498+ score would likely do well with passing the boards, but that’s not what the OP had nor what my argument was based off of. Ever wonder why not many students get in with a sub 495 score? Could it be that perhaps they are at a higher risk of failing out/not being able to handle the course load? Before you start arguing with me about the difference between a 492 and a 498 it is a huge difference in scores. Not to mention I believe OPs GPA was in the 3.4 range. That’s not awful, but it sure doesn’t contradict that low of a score.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

What percentage of failing out would you be considered too high for comfort? Using data from AAMC he has a 6% of failing out. Yes, OP has a statistically higher chance of failing out.... But at 6% I wouldn't bring the word "risk" into the conversation or even really waste my energy on it. The value that you are placing on the MCAT is unfounded. A 498+ means you will pass your steps (high percentage even for first-time takers) so the argument of "just wait until they have to pass their boards" shouldn't be brought up as a rebuttal... Doctors need to be bright and sharp students no doubt... But the intellectual prowess you're saying is needed for success in medical school just isn't true.

https://www.aamc.org/download/462756/data/oldmcatguide.pdf

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/2016-Annual-Conference/how-valid-the-mcat.pdf?sfvrsn=4

The DO study presented is literally garbage with an n value of 39 and is talking about masters students in a very specific SMP like program at one school so I’m not even going to address it.

The AAMC data you linked has OP at only a 65-70% chance of graduating in 4 years (ie. no board or class failures). A 30% chance of not graduating in 4 years is very significant. Before you cite data make sure you understand what it is actually saying as I may not be saying what you think it does.

The 6% you quote is talking about actual dismissals from schools due to academic reasons and has nothing to do with board failures. Even a single board failure is a massive red flag that can prevent someone from matching into residency, and essentially forces said student into uncompetitive FM spots (not just FM in general, but the FM spots no one really wants). This person would still graduate, likely in 5 years, but is severely affected by their board failure even if they do pass the second go around.

Again, a low MCAT score such as a 492 does NOT mean someone is for sure going to struggle, but there is SIGNIFICANT risk of them struggling and they need to be aware of that. People like to pretend the hard part is getting into med school, this is a completely false notion.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Okay for starters the OP had a 492 not a 498. That’s a difference of being in the bottom 26% of all test takers vs just shy of the 50th percentile. I don’t doubt those with a 498+ score would likely do well with passing the boards, but that’s not what the OP had nor what my argument was based off of. Ever wonder why not many students get in with a sub 495 score? Could it be that perhaps they are at a higher risk of failing out/not being able to handle the course load? Before you start arguing with me about the difference between a 492 and a 498 it is a huge difference in scores. Not to mention I believe OPs GPA was in the 3.4 range. That’s not awful, but it sure doesn’t contradict that low of a score.


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My argument IS for OP's stats... And my argument is for the success of completing medical school. Obviously there is difference in percentiles in 492 and 498 MCAT... But in regarding those two scores, the difference/risk in successfully completing medical is virtually the same (about ~1% difference.) Simply put, OP has an extremely high chance of completing medical school even with his 492, 3.4... With that said I'd imagine they don't admit more "low stat" students because the human capital needed to vet these students is high.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

The DO study presented is literally garbage with an n value of 39 and is talking about masters students in a very specific SMP like program at one school so I’m not even going to address it.

The AAMC data you linked has OP at only a 65-70% chance of graduating in 4 years (ie. no board or class failures). A 30% chance of not graduating in 4 years is very significant. Before you cite data make sure you understand what it is actually saying as I may not be saying what you think it does.

The 6% you quote is talking about actual dismissals from schools due to academic reasons and has nothing to do with board failures. Even a single board failure is a massive red flag that can prevent someone from matching into residency, and essentially forces said student into uncompetitive FM spots (not just FM in general, but the FM spots no one really wants). This person would still graduate, likely in 5 years, but is severely affected by their board failure even if they do pass the second go around.

Again, a low MCAT score such as a 492 does NOT mean someone is for sure going to struggle, but there is SIGNIFICANT risk of them struggling and they need to be aware of that. People like to pretend the hard part is getting into med school, this is a completely false notion.

Posted the DO one because it ties to SMP type study and follows their own students in their own program... It was a presentation to their own school. (interesting nothing more. thats why I didn't quote it).

I literally said failing out when I stated the 6%. That 6% wasn't tied to boards, come on bro... Also no one on this thread has defined what success in medical school entails. I would say scoring a the 25th percentile, getting a B+ ugpa, and getting into a residency IS success (even if that residency is S#!@). However, people on this thread DID define failure as "failing out".... Which goes back to that 6% stat. I'm not saying med school is easy, nor am I saying its really hard... It's in fact hella hard! But even if you take worst case scenario of the success this student might obtain, I'd say the risk of failing out that this thread is focusing on isn't warranted. Bringing up the quality of OP's match is another argument... One in which I don't disagree with you on. But bro your standards of quality are coming from a DO student that has been eyeing a prestigious specialty from the get-go. You aren't a begger so you can be a chooser... I still believe my comments hold true. OP is not at a risk of failing out/dismissal with his stats.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

However, people on this thread DID define failure as "failing out".... Which goes back to that 6% stat.

Perhaps I need to re-read the thread because I have been talking about boards this whole time. OP has a significantly elevated risk (~25%) of not passing boards in the first try, as reported by the data you presented. Again, I am not saying OP shouldn’t go, or that anyone with a low MCAT shouldn’t go, but that once they get there they should bust butt because they are at greater risk of failing boards and board failures make it much more difficult to get a residency, any residency. That has been my point this whole time.

 

[Robin-jay]

Perhaps I need to re-read the thread because I have been talking about boards this whole time. OP has a significantly elevated risk (~25%) of not passing boards in the first try, as reported by the data you presented. Again, I am not saying OP shouldn’t go, or that anyone with a low MCAT shouldn’t go, but that once they get there they should bust butt because they are at greater risk of failing boards and board failures make it much more difficult to get a residency, any residency. That has been my point this whole time.

I just think its much more complex than this. Heres a few cases to show what I mean.

1.) Guy scores 503 first MCAT, scores 493 MCAT on the second. If this guy took it once, everyone with your viewpoint would agree he would be great in med school!

2.) Guy scores 495 first MCAT, takes another MCAT 4-8 weeks later, gets 505. Did he all of a sudden gain a 25% higher chance of passing boards?

I'm not saying the stats which you are quoting are false, just questioning the lack of holistic review of simply saying "so-so test score has a so-so correlation with failing boards".

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Perhaps I need to re-read the thread because I have been talking about boards this whole time. OP has a significantly elevated risk (~25%) of not passing boards in the first try, as reported by the data you presented. Again, I am not saying OP shouldn’t go, or that anyone with a low MCAT shouldn’t go, but that once they get there they should bust butt because they are at greater risk of failing boards and board failures make it much more difficult to get a residency, any residency. That has been my point this whole time.

No need to re-read... Your time is better spent in the books. Failing out, AND boards have been discussed on the thread. My post brought up boards so it was valid to critique it. However, boards wasn't my "main idea".... All in all, I would say we agree on the issue in general.

On another note: On SDN there is a undertone and sometimes blatant snobbery when it comes to stats. Wanting to become a physician is a noble and rigorous undertaking and there is a level of mental capacity needed for the material, but emotional intelligence is what should be stressed when discussing someones success in medical school. Too many pre-meds on SDN correlate the competitiveness of admissions to a intellectual threshold needed to be a competent physician... "you can argue those of us who scored under 505 scored poorly"... This argument isn't aimed at the topic of board scores, it's aimed at failing out. The argument is a general statement (using only MCAT scores as a qualifier and saying nothing about GPA) that doubles down by saying, "for those offended...hope you prove me wrong". As if to say, if one refutes this stance it is most likely out of angst or being emotionally sensitive. When in reality this stance is already proven wrong through data because their argument is for "failing out". My ululating isn't necessarily about this single post but about many users stratifying the SDN community in the way of stats. In the attempt to dispel their own inferiority complex but masquerade their argument in the name of fact, and getting the "best person for the job"... This thread is a decent example of this culture; a thread that is trying to give a little hope to underdogs..... and in no time becomes a platform for "the statistical chance you'll fail." With those statistics rarely being backed with data (your sub 24 MCAT is 100% factual, but that bar is set to a sub-500 and that's pretty surprising). Also for the people that say it's because they don't want people to go through the "financial risk" is silly! Lets use these rough numbers ($250k indebtedness, @ ~7% paid over 10 yrs... ~350k repayed and avg lifetime income of a PCP ~3 Million) they run a risk/reward of 8 (this math isn't fully illustrative but at least I'm attempting to quantify their risk in some way). A popular user on here says "I teach at a DO school, all my students are underdogs"... So the drawing of the line in the sand, is done by underdogs in the attempt to feel Superior to other underdogs. This behavior is ubiquitous on SDN.

 

[SurgDoc95]

No need to re-read... Your time is better spent in the books. Failing out, AND boards have been discussed on the thread. My post brought up boards so it was valid to critique it. However, boards wasn't my "main idea".... All in all, I would say we agree on the issue in general.

On another note: On SDN there is a undertone and sometimes blatant snobbery when it comes to stats. Wanting to become a physician is a noble and rigorous undertaking and there is a level of mental capacity needed for the material, but emotional intelligence is what should be stressed when discussing someones success in medical school. Too many pre-meds on SDN correlate the competitiveness of admissions to a intellectual threshold needed to be a competent physician... "you can argue those of us who scored under 505 scored poorly"... This argument isn't aimed at the topic of board scores, it's aimed at failing out. The argument is a general statement (using only MCAT scores as a qualifier and saying nothing about GPA) that doubles down by saying, "for those offended...hope you prove me wrong". As if to say, if one refutes this stance it is most likely out of angst or being emotionally sensitive. When in reality this stance is already proven wrong through data because their argument is for "failing out". My ululating isn't necessarily about this single post but about many users stratifying the SDN community in the way of stats. In the attempt to dispel their own inferiority complex but masquerade their argument in the name of fact, and getting the "best person for the job"... This thread is a decent example of this culture; a thread that is trying to give a little hope to underdogs..... and in no time becomes a platform for "the statistical chance you'll fail." With those statistics rarely being backed with data (your sub 24 MCAT is 100% factual, but that bar is set to a sub-500 and that's pretty surprising). Also for the people that say it's because they don't want people to go through the "financial risk" is silly! Lets use these rough numbers ($250k indebtedness, @ ~7% paid over 10 yrs... ~350k repayed and avg lifetime income of a PCP ~3 Million) they run a risk/reward of 8 (this math isn't fully illustrative but at least I'm attempting to quantify their risk in some way). A popular user on here says "I teach at a DO school, all my students are underdogs"... So the drawing of the line in the sand, is done by underdogs in the attempt to feel Superior to other underdogs. This behavior is ubiquitous on SDN.

Easy there turbo. I did talk about MCAT being coupled with a poor GPA which then contributes to an even greater risk of failing boards, having to re-mediate courses, and failing out/deciding to call it quits. To your assertion that those of us who make arguments on here about a need for decent stats for admission are somehow bolstering our own egos spare me. Many of these users that you feel the need to call out, myself included, spend a decent amount of our free time while in medical school giving applicants advice and helping people to get in the same way we were helped. If I happen to express my hold up against admitting applicants on a regular basis with <3.2 GPAs and MCATs of <495 it doesn't mean that all applicants that are applying with those stats will become bad physicians or that that will all fail out. It does put them at a higher risk of failing out, a higher risk of not passing boards the first time, and a higher possibility of being forced to accept any FM residency position that will accept them. IF that possibility is a scenario that is appealing to those applying with low scores then hey go for it and godspeed. That is also not saying that those admitted with a 3.5+ and an MCAT of 500+ won't struggle in school, but they are statistically less likely to have as big of problems. I remember your unhinged, incoherent rant about how AACOMAS was the scourge of the planet after the grade replacement policy came out so I'm not going to engage with you further (yes the policy change should've had a grace period).

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Easy there turbo. I did talk about MCAT being coupled with a poor GPA which then contributes to an even greater risk of failing boards, having to re-mediate courses, and failing out/deciding to call it quits. To your assertion that those of us who make arguments on here about a need for decent stats for admission are somehow bolstering our own egos spare me. Many of these users that you feel the need to call out, myself included, spend a decent amount of our free time while in medical school giving applicants advice and helping people to get in the same way we were helped. If I happen to express my hold up against admitting applicants on a regular basis with <3.2 GPAs and MCATs of <495 it doesn't mean that all applicants that are applying with those stats will become bad physicians or that that will all fail out. It does put them at a higher risk of failing out, a higher risk of not passing boards the first time, and a higher possibility of being forced to accept any FM residency position that will accept them. IF that possibility is a scenario that is appealing to those applying with low scores then hey go for it and godspeed. That is also not saying that those admitted with a 3.5+ and an MCAT of 500+ won't struggle in school, but they are statistically less likely to have as big of problems. I remember your unhinged, incoherent rant about how AACOMAS was the scourge of the planet after the grade replacement policy came out so I'm not going to engage with you further (yes the policy change should've had a grace period).

Ah, low key straw man... Extending and re-framing my argument into having admissions "regularly" except people with both performance indicators being low. Like I said before your post is an example of the culture on SDN... You change the framing of your argument just slightly. Sub 505 is at higher risk. Eh, 500+ is less risk than a <495... You are taking this stance that your position is useful but really you are stating the obvious! Someone who knows literally nothing about medical school admissions can make these logical steps. Next you'll say that a 505 is at higher risk than a 515 and package that as "giving advice and helping people". Starting from post #5 and onward people gave unsolicited advice on rethinking medical school... No one looked at the situation or the mindset the OP was in. OP literally had the guts to apply to medical school with 492! Then he got a vote of confidence from TWO medical schools!!! For help to be considered useful the deliver also needs to be accounted for. Which looking through this thread we can see tact isn't much of a concern. If delivery isn't good then information isn't received... And if information is given, knowing it won't be received, then the person is talking to just hear themselves talk... Why would a student NOT soliciting advice listen to someone doubt their dreams after two medical schools thought they were capable of being successful?! Don't pretend your advice is rooted in some deontological perspective! The fact that you're trying to tu quoque my argument via my previous post sheds light on the culture even more...

 

[SurgDoc95]

Ah, low key straw man... Extending and re-framing my argument into having admissions "regularly" except people with both performance indicators being low. Like I said before your post is an example of the culture on SDN... You change the framing of your argument just slightly. Sub 505 is at higher risk. Eh, 500+ is less risk than a <495... You are taking this stance that your position is useful but really you are stating the obvious! Someone who knows literally nothing about medical school admissions can make these logical steps. Next you'll say that a 505 is at higher risk than a 515 and package that as "giving advice and helping people". Starting from post #5 and onward people gave unsolicited advice on rethinking medical school... No one looked at the situation or the mindset the OP was in. OP literally had the guts to apply to medical school with 492! Then he got a vote of confidence from TWO medical schools!!! For help to be considered useful the deliver also needs to be accounted for. Which looking through this thread we can see tact isn't much of a concern. If delivery isn't good then information isn't received... And if information is given, knowing it won't be received, then the person is talking to just hear themselves talk... Why would a student NOT soliciting advice listen to someone doubt their dreams after two medical schools thought they were capable of being successful?! Don't pretend your advice is rooted in some deontological perspective! The fact that you're trying to tu quoque my argument via my previous post sheds light on the culture even more...

Haha okay whatever you’d like to think. Also if SDN is so toxic feel free to leave any time you’d like!
Also none of the advice given is for OP specifically as they already got into school. It was to show how uncommon it is for someone in OP’s position to get in and what the realistic risks are. Have a good one

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[anhmvbds]

Can't we all just get along?

I like this picture and I also love you!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I just think its much more complex than this. Heres a few cases to show what I mean.

1.) Guy scores 503 first MCAT, scores 493 MCAT on the second. If this guy took it once, everyone with your viewpoint would agree he would be great in med school!

2.) Guy scores 495 first MCAT, takes another MCAT 4-8 weeks later, gets 505. Did he all of a sudden gain a 25% higher chance of passing boards?

I'm not saying the stats which you are quoting are false, just questioning the lack of holistic review of simply saying "so-so test score has a so-so correlation with failing boards".

Your first point is a great example of creating an extremely outlier scenario that doesn’t happen in actuality and using it as some argument that proves your point. It doesn’t as that scenario does not play out.

As to point number two there is compelling data that shows that your first MCAT score is the one that is most indicative of performance.

Also, the data shows that the risk is correlated with a score below a 24, so like a 498 or lower. This is a fact based in years and years of data and to claim otherwise is simply ignorant.

 

[Robin-jay]

Your first point is a great example of creating an extremely outlier scenario that doesn’t happen in actuality and using it as some argument that proves your point. It doesn’t as that scenario does not play out.

As to point number two there is compelling data that shows that your first MCAT score is the one that is most indicative of performance.

Also, the data shows that the risk is correlated with a score below a 24, so like a 498 or lower. This is a fact based in years and years of data and to claim otherwise is simply ignorant.

Here is your proof of a student who scored 503 on the first MCAT, and then 493 on the second MCAT.

Worse on 2nd MCAT

Here is your proof.

Now my question is, does this student have a good chance at doing well in medical school? Afterall, by your standards, that first MCAT is all that matters right?

My point remains, holistic review on MCAT scores are still necessary. If they weren't, then the range at many D.O. school wouldn't be approximately 490-518, they would all be 500+.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Your first point is a great example of creating an extremely outlier scenario that doesn’t happen in actuality and using it as some argument that proves your point. It doesn’t as that scenario does not play out.

As to point number two there is compelling data that shows that your first MCAT score is the one that is most indicative of performance.

Also, the data shows that the risk is correlated with a score below a 24, so like a 498 or lower. This is a fact based in years and years of data and to claim otherwise is simply ignorant.

Dude he is using a common canon of rhetoric... While you're committing the irrelevant conclusion fallacy.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Now my question is, does this student have a good chance at doing well in medical school? Afterall, by your standards, that first MCAT is all that matters right?

Yes they do, according to the data we have. They will still likely be tanned as an “at risk student” by the school.

My point remains, holistic review on MCAT scores are still necessary. If they weren't, then the range at many D.O. school wouldn't be approximately 490-518, they would all be 500+.

What do you mean by “holistic review on MCAT scores”? Yes someone who gets a 492 and then gets a 515 likely is less of a risk than someone who get 492 alone. There is a reason that on the first day of orientation you are told that you are an “at risk student” if you have an MCAT score below a 500.

Dude he is using a common canon of rhetoric... While you're committing the irrelevant conclusion fallacy.

Lol, no. I got their point just fine.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Lol, no. I got their point just fine.

So let me get this straight... He used a common rhetorical device to explain his argument. You explain to him his OWN canon in a belittling fashion. You tell him his comment is not a real scenario and not worth talking about. He then provides a thread that proves it's a real scenario! Instead of answering his post in a decent fashion and put the topic at rest, you perpetuate it. He asked a interesting question and you answered the question like you always do... With 100% knowledge! HAHAHA you literally answered a hypothetical probing question with a definitive answer!

Also "Yes they do, according to the data we have"... Share the data. I'm not saying it isn't real but obviously you've seen it before and can find it way quicker than us trying to come up with the correct google combination.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[787593]

Regardless.

8 months later and I'm still collecting "likes" on this. you guys love grammar...

 

[DO2015CA]

8 months later and I'm still collecting "likes" on this. you guys love grammar...

Lol you just bumped yourself so you’d get more likes didn’t you?

 

[787593]

Lol you just bumped yourself so you’d get more likes didn’t you?

lol someone liked it at 2am today

 

[Ho0v-man]

I can’t believe I just read everything since my last post...from February. Y’all arguing about the significance of his mcat score months after he starts med school.

 

[deano01wilson]

Congrats on getting accepted! Admittedly, when I first took the MCAT (the old one) I got a 19. Took it 3-4 times after that (which I should not have at all) with an uphill trend. Took the new MCAT-2015 and got a 500, and I also have two acceptances!! I can definitely relate to your situation... congrats to both of us!

Would you please share which medical schools offered acceptance? I am taking the MCAT Jan 20, 2018, hoping for reasonably good scores, but would like to know my options if I don't get the results I hope for.

 

[leturbinator]

Im reading this and currently wondering if standardized exams truly reflect your performance in school. I know plenty of people who graduated with 4.0 GPAs from fancy schools but still did crap on the MCAT.

 

[Goro]

Im reading this and currently wondering if standardized exams truly reflect your performance in school. I know plenty of people who graduated with 4.0 GPAs from fancy schools but still did crap on the MCAT.

The MCAT is a fair predictor of success in med school and somewhat less so for Boards. It IS a good predictor of poor results in med school/Boards if one does poorly on it.

It is also a perverse exam given that high performing people in college can do poorly on the CARS/VR section.

A "4.0 from fancy schools" really means nothing. Have you ever heard of "the gentleman's B?"

 

[AB877]

Hello! It's been several months since I've been on here but I wanted to update everyone that medical school is going great and I'm just going into my second semester. School is hard but I'm managing, and I keep learning how to be a better student and learner as each day goes by. I go to school with some incredible people, super smart and many of them had high GPA's and high MCAT scores (that they have openly shared with me). It seems that no matter what scores we came in with, a lot of us still have those days where we doubt our worthiness of being here and ability to be successful in medical school. We all struggle with something, even the brightest and most capable applicants and I think this is normal and makes us human. Again, this post was never meant to provide false hope to anyone- I just wanted to share my situation. Yes, boards are absolutely going to be tough. I'm just taking this med school thing one day at a time, and proving to myself that I can do this.

P.S. I never mentioned my gender- but I do find it funny that everyone assumed!

 

[simplys]

Which schools did you get accepted into?

 

[dxcoco]

Hello! It's been several months since I've been on here but I wanted to update everyone that medical school is going great and I'm just going into my second semester. School is hard but I'm managing, and I keep learning how to be a better student and learner as each day goes by. I go to school with some incredible people, super smart and many of them had high GPA's and high MCAT scores (that they have openly shared with me). It seems that no matter what scores we came in with, a lot of us still have those days where we doubt our worthiness of being here and ability to be successful in medical school. We all struggle with something, even the brightest and most capable applicants and I think this is normal and makes us human. Again, this post was never meant to provide false hope to anyone- I just wanted to share my situation. Yes, boards are absolutely going to be tough. I'm just taking this med school thing one day at a time, and proving to myself that I can do this.

P.S. I never mentioned my gender- but I do find it funny that everyone assumed!

Hello,

What school do you attend?

Sincerely,
Someone figuring it out

 

[PPU2017]

I feel like my post needs a disclaimer. I've read similar posts to this, and I've seen the comments. I fully recognize that my success is comparable to "winning the lotto" and I'm prepared that some of you will comment "I would seriously doubt your ability to succeed in medical school if you scored this low on your mcat".

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to become a physician, and thankful for those who saw something in my application that made them consider looking past my flaws. I recognize that I don't fit the bill of your typical applicant, and I'm not trying to give false hope to anyone with a similar situation. Take my situation with a grain of salt, but maybe this will help just one person feel a little better 🙂

I've received two acceptances this cycle, with an MCAT score of 492.

SDN can be a harsh place, and once you read some of the posts on this forum, it's hard to find hope when you already feel like a POS pre-med student. Hang in there and do your best!

Where were you accepted? And were you an in-state applicant? I am in the middle of applications, and I also have a lower MCAT score...

 

[PPU2017]

I think in general people on SDN like sh**ing on those with underwhelming scores, some rightfully so (like a 19 MCAT applying to DO school = no bueno). In your case, since you have a master's that to me holds a lot of sway and especially if you did well in it. Are you on average at a higher risk of failing out? Sure. I just saw another poster, though, who had score a 33 but withdrew from their MD school for an undisclosed personal reason. I bring this up only to say that that 22--to me--is not a definitive end-all-be-all of your med school, and you obviously know that and so do others.

That being said, I cannot stress enough to others reading that OP is the outlier. He has a M.S. and probably other outstanding aspects to his app, including great interview skills. Maybe he's really into jesus and was accpeted to UIW, maybe he is from the area of a nearby school and that gave him the edge. No matter, he got in and he earned it.

Anyways, good on ya OP and congrats. I had a 497 MCAT, but had above-average parts to my application, including stellar LORs.

Where did you apply? Get interviews and accepted? I have a lower MCAT score and am in the midst of applications.

 

[gensurghopeful]

How did you convince the admissions committee that an MCAT score in the 25th percentile will not translate into a major difficulty in passing your subsequent boards?

Advice from Goro himself - MCAT scores are, at best, a WEAK predictor of board scores.
More important is your pre-clinical GPA in med school and beyond.

 

[BurntFlower]

Congratulations, OP! What a great accomplishment.