"The ethics are strong in this one." -Yoda, MD.
In all seriousness though - assuming the whole thing is actually true - people will do very strange things when cornered into a very difficult situation.
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Accidentally sent inappropriate email to program
Started by Qpworueury
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In all seriousness though - assuming the whole thing is actually true - people will do very strange things when cornered into a very difficult situation.
Qpworueury
Full Member
Still haven't responded yes to the invite. How long do I have to respond untill it's viewed as a no response?
Max 2 days.
Why are you delaying the inevitable?
God, I hope this is a troll post. OP, you're only digging your hole deeper by length of your non-response. They already know you have access to the e-mail because you sent them the stupid hacked excuse e-mail. The longer you wait to respond the sketchier you look. Are you going to respond like this when you make a patient error (because it will probably happen at least once no matter how good a resident you are)? Just ignore the situation and hope it goes away?
More likely lie about it.
IF OP is not trolling then we are all watching someone, in real time commit career suicide.
Still 10/10.
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Every hour you delay makes matters worse.
I'll ask again--concretely, what do you think your alternative is?
I’m calling shenanigans on this. But if not, get your big boy pants on and fess up to it. We all make mistakes but you seem to love to dig your hole deeper and deeper. You have hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans on the line.
Admit to it. Apologize as an error in judgement and you learned from it, and be aware that you will be under the microscope for some time to prove yourself. Besides, you have a 1 year contract, there is no guarantee of renewal after they completed their requirement. Bet your bottom dollar they will document everything and potentially look for a reason for non renewal and your lying already is the first documented milestone infraction against you in professionalism and communication at least.
Stop the shenanigans, and just take your medicine
Admit to it. Apologize as an error in judgement and you learned from it, and be aware that you will be under the microscope for some time to prove yourself. Besides, you have a 1 year contract, there is no guarantee of renewal after they completed their requirement. Bet your bottom dollar they will document everything and potentially look for a reason for non renewal and your lying already is the first documented milestone infraction against you in professionalism and communication at least.
Stop the shenanigans, and just take your medicine
I have been in some tough situations in my life, but writing an angry E-mail to my future residency director while being a click away from actually sending it is insanely unique. Can't say I have any colleagues that have ever been remotely in that situation.
As amusing the OP is, there are a lot of convenient happenstances that the OP keeps dragging in to make the thread more entertaining seem extremely troll-like. Albeit if it's a troll, it is a top tier one.
1. Actually sends a letter intentional or unintentional to a residency director stating why they hate the program. While saying it happened some story of a cat, falling laptop, or something.
2. Sends an E-mail using the same E-mail, saying he's been hacked.
3. Gives us updates of Microsoft Team Invites
4. Sends us updates about the worst possible things he's doing with the Teams invite
It's just so convenient that everything happening has some mystery to it, as to keep everyone on the edge of their seats.
Seems like an elaborate troll.
But I do hope its not.
I hope it is.
Qpworueury
Full Member
A patient error is different than this. I have a great standing at my current residency program and all of my evals are solid. My co-interns say I'm honest and truthful and good to work with. So just because this one email got sent out, that changes everything on my character.
Isn't there any forgiveness if I'm on a busy rotation when will this happened? They can't expect me to drop everything and respond to them? I've had mentors wait weeks before responding to emails.
I just hate the inevitable idea of sucking up to worst place on the planet. Why is the hospital always right and the resident is always wrong? Maybe they needed to hear this. I don't I've had such a frustration towards ant entity ever. I haven't heard a single good thing about this place.
The reason why I posted here was I think most places wouldn't look this section of the form while also be relevant to this form. It allows me from professionals without making it incredibly public.
I am sorry for you that you're so unhappy with where you matched. I realize it's incredibly disappointing, but it happened because you didn't match anywhere higher on your list. I am guessing this was the last place on your list -- if not, then perhaps you should have ranked it lower. If it was the last place, if you had not ranked it you would not have matched at all. Would that be any better? Only you can answer that.
In any case, you need to get in front of this. You need to respond to their request and meet with them, and try to fix the situation. Is there going to be forgiveness for this? Perhaps -- but only if you deal with it. And yes, you're going to need to suck up to them. Whether or not they are as terrible as you say, this was the wrong way to go about addressing any issues you may see.
Imagine the shoe was on the other foot. Imagine they sent you an email saying "we have no idea why we matched such a terrible person as yourself. Your research skills are no where near what we are looking for, and your LOR's suggest you're barely adequate to be a physician. What a disappointment". How would you feel? if they then sent you an email saying "So sorry, don't worry about that, it was just an internal thing and we didn't want to send it to you", would that make it OK? Or what if they said "Ignore that, it was an error, wasn't about you" but the details in the email were absolutely about your application? I expect you'd be angry and unhappy. They are all human too, and they feel the same way.
When you make a major error, you absolutely drop everything and address it. And, addressing this isn't going to take weeks -- you simply respond to the request and meet with them.
I want you to be 100% honest with yourself. It seems very clear to me that you don't want to go to this place, and you're trying to get fired. We can debate the wisdom of that choice, but at least it would be consistent with your behavior. The fact that you can't see how outside the norm this is, and call it "an error" like it's almost nothing, is concerning. The initial event was pretty bad, but you're now building it into a catastrophe. Had you addressed it appropriately to start, this would all be over and you'd be on a good path (assuming that you really want to keep this spot)
In any case, you need to get in front of this. You need to respond to their request and meet with them, and try to fix the situation. Is there going to be forgiveness for this? Perhaps -- but only if you deal with it. And yes, you're going to need to suck up to them. Whether or not they are as terrible as you say, this was the wrong way to go about addressing any issues you may see.
Imagine the shoe was on the other foot. Imagine they sent you an email saying "we have no idea why we matched such a terrible person as yourself. Your research skills are no where near what we are looking for, and your LOR's suggest you're barely adequate to be a physician. What a disappointment". How would you feel? if they then sent you an email saying "So sorry, don't worry about that, it was just an internal thing and we didn't want to send it to you", would that make it OK? Or what if they said "Ignore that, it was an error, wasn't about you" but the details in the email were absolutely about your application? I expect you'd be angry and unhappy. They are all human too, and they feel the same way.
When you make a major error, you absolutely drop everything and address it. And, addressing this isn't going to take weeks -- you simply respond to the request and meet with them.
I want you to be 100% honest with yourself. It seems very clear to me that you don't want to go to this place, and you're trying to get fired. We can debate the wisdom of that choice, but at least it would be consistent with your behavior. The fact that you can't see how outside the norm this is, and call it "an error" like it's almost nothing, is concerning. The initial event was pretty bad, but you're now building it into a catastrophe. Had you addressed it appropriately to start, this would all be over and you'd be on a good path (assuming that you really want to keep this spot)
)As I write this, I acknowledge that I am really not convinced that this isn't an elaborate and exceptionally entertaining troll post. But let's explore this idea a bit, because even if this is a farce, then someone might take something good out of this conversation.
This is not a case of the hospital always being right and the resident always being wrong. In this specific instance, you ARE in the wrong. Your residency placement is a professional contract. Yes, it is a training program, but it is also effectively a job. And it is definitely a step on your career path. In the real world - within and outside of medicine - an employee has certain professional obligations to their employer. When you are hired to do a job, you go to work when you say you'll go, you dress according to company policy, you show up on time, you do your work while you're there, you respond to emails in a timely fashion, and you treat those around you with respect. If (and frankly when, because no job is perfect and frustrations are frequent in any career) you have concerns about the working conditions, your salary, how you are being managed, etc. you follow a protocol for addressing those concerns. Sometimes you ask for a meeting with your manager, sometimes you raise these problems with HR, sometimes you have to document these problems over time. But you handle them in a reasoned and professional manner. You raise them as is appropriate for your work environment. And if you find yourself at an impasse, then you either resolve to stick it out or you resign.
What you did...or claim you did...is not that. From how you have framed it, it sounds like you wrote an emotional and ill-considered diatribe about all of the things that are wrong about a program you are not even yet a part of, sent it on a wildly irresponsible and ill-advised whim (no one believes your 'accidental sending' story), and have made tremendously poor decisions in the aftermath. Everything that you have done - writing and sending the email (rather than asking for a meeting to discuss these issues in a reasoned fashion), lying about your account being hacked, not responding to the request to meet with you - is incredibly and probably irrevocably unprofessional. In the professional world - the one in which you are not guaranteed 45 days - all of the above would be fireable offences. Not because there is some unremitting hierarchy but because it shows poor judgement, contempt, and frank unreliability.
I managed colleagues for many years. If any one of my team had behaved in the way you have, they would have been referred to HR and likely let go. That's not how residency works in the early days, so you have a shot at redemption. But you had better put that tail between your legs, respond in the affirmative to that meeting request, and prepare to give a sincere mea culpa, or risk losing it all. You have done an absolutely brilliant job of convincing yourself that you are not the problem, but friend, you most definitely are. You plainly need a serious reality check and obviously need to grow up pretty quickly here.
**Having said all of the above, no one is this silly. This is surely a troll and I suppose we should stop feeding it, as much as it pains me. This thread has made me laugh out loud on many occasions. It has, at times, been a work of genius.
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OP- do you find it concerning that on this forum of medical trainees and trainers you can’t find one person to agree with your approach?
Maybe you think people on this site are fake. If so, go speak with a trusted mentor (med school or your current program). See what advice they give you. If you can’t find a mentor to agree with your approach then time to shift gears
For those sure this is a troll- it probably is but I can believe such events could happen. Young people have been entitled for a while now. Add 2years of isolation and taking social media waves of entitlement to be reality can easily cause someone to feel “empowered” against a “tyrant”.
OP- this doesn’t end well.
Maybe you think people on this site are fake. If so, go speak with a trusted mentor (med school or your current program). See what advice they give you. If you can’t find a mentor to agree with your approach then time to shift gears
For those sure this is a troll- it probably is but I can believe such events could happen. Young people have been entitled for a while now. Add 2years of isolation and taking social media waves of entitlement to be reality can easily cause someone to feel “empowered” against a “tyrant”.
OP- this doesn’t end well.
D
deleted610572
But also for those that have been here for a very long time, we needed this thread lol. This is the most interesting thread I’ve read in the last 3-4 years
Best comment ever! 🤣
If the email was written like this, with no paragraphs etc, then they may not even be able to understand it 😏.
Also, please remember to say “next line” or “next paragraph” when dictating…
The issue is that this wasn't just a one time error of sending the email - as several folks have already said, that could have been salvageable. The issue is that after sending the email, you lied about what happened, and now are ignoring a request from your boss to discuss it. It is a series of bad decisions that each make you look worse and worse.
And yes, of course I'm sure some of your concerns about the education at that program are valid. Residents are allowed to bring up complaints and concerns about their program (ideally once they have actually started working at the program so they actually know what is going on and why, but I digress). But this was not the right way to bring them up and if you are really such a professional coworker and resident, you know that.
IF this is true you are basically screwed. People get fired for literally nothing if they manage to piss off the right people in program leadership. You can either buck up and address this or you can look forward to being fired on day 46 of your PGY 2 year. Sorry, but you're not going to get any sympathy from anyone here. Welcome to life, it's not fair and you made a really dumb mistake/decison, made it exponentially worse by lying and then trying to shift the blame away from only you. Intern of the year at TY or pre lim program isn't an accomplishment by the way. Glad you're not coming to my program
D
deleted610572
I would said it is fair. Like you said it’s the real world. And in the real world you are fired for these things. Medical education is bizarre where many students it’s their first real job at the ripe age of 26-29 making people entitled and they behave like this.
So what’s the update?
Qpworueury
Full Member
Absolutely humiliated today.
Elaborate?
15/15 now
D
deleted610572
How so?
**turns email notifications on for a thread for the first time ever**
Do tell...
Do tell...
I'm going to again appeal that we assume this thread is legit. If this is all an elaborate troll, then I have no doubt we will get the additional details that we're all looking for. But if this is a true story, then there is a real person who has made a series of really bad mistakes and is now facing, presumably, some serious professional consequences. Let's please try not adding to an already stressful situation by prying for additional details/mocking/etc.
OP, you've gotten some really good advice throughout this process regarding professionalism and being truthful. If there is still a possibility to explain yourself, I hope you can take that opportunity. If there are any additional questions that you are facing, please feel free to post them here.
Good luck.
OP, you've gotten some really good advice throughout this process regarding professionalism and being truthful. If there is still a possibility to explain yourself, I hope you can take that opportunity. If there are any additional questions that you are facing, please feel free to post them here.
Good luck.
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Might want to start reading up on:
thedo.osteopathic.org
Practicing after one year of residency: Is it feasible? Should it be?
Some argue that three years of GME is excessive. Yet physicians who skip residency face a number of hurdles, especially when it comes to employment.
thedo.osteopathic.org
Humiliation can lead us to humility, which is a good place to start over and decide how we want to be in the future. A difficult lesson, but may lead to personal growth. (In other words, this is rock bottom; it can all get better from here).
That's a name i had successfully suppressed the memory of for many years
The letter would give them a high bar to cross. The subsequent lie about their account being hacked would be something I would never move past. Brutal honesty can be channeled productively but lying makes me unable to trust anything a resident is saying. It makes me have to work harder looking at their work because I don't trust anything they do either.
Qpworueury
Full Member
It's just such a convoluted story I'm not even sure if I can write something that could make sense.
I guess the short story is they called my personal phone twice yesterday morning, but I missed those two calls (was somewhere where I didn't have my phone accessible), then they tried to get through to my workplace. I forgot I was so mad after match day I never gave them the contact information for my program, just the place I matched at for prelim, so the administrator that called ended up calling the main line to try to get through to the prelim department. They ended up getting through my PC and then to the chiefs. Once the chiefs found out, they tried to find me, but I wasn't in the spot they'd expect, so they paged me overhead, but I wasn't in a spot I'd hear the pages clearly. One of them ended up walking down and checked all the spots I could conceivably be, found me pulled me out of where I was, walked me down to PD's office where my advanced program was holding on the line. They said this program was being held for 30+ mins and they have no idea why.
My current PD said in their 15 years of being involved in resident education, the last time a advanced residency program called them about the a resident, they got fired.They told me, "I don't know what you did, but you need to deal with this now". I've never seen anyone so mad before.
All my peers saw the whole debacle because the PDs office is connected to lounge and you have to walk through that in order to get to the office.
As far as the phone conversation, not much to it to report. The lady I talked to on the phone didn't reveal much (even when I asked), they just said if your still interested in your job here, you need to confirm your attendance on the email we sent 72+ hours ago. She said "You will receive more information soon" I'm not even sure who I was talking to. Didn't get an introduction at all.
So long story short is my attendance is confirmed and I'll be talking with them the first week of January on WebEx.
I guess the short story is they called my personal phone twice yesterday morning, but I missed those two calls (was somewhere where I didn't have my phone accessible), then they tried to get through to my workplace. I forgot I was so mad after match day I never gave them the contact information for my program, just the place I matched at for prelim, so the administrator that called ended up calling the main line to try to get through to the prelim department. They ended up getting through my PC and then to the chiefs. Once the chiefs found out, they tried to find me, but I wasn't in the spot they'd expect, so they paged me overhead, but I wasn't in a spot I'd hear the pages clearly. One of them ended up walking down and checked all the spots I could conceivably be, found me pulled me out of where I was, walked me down to PD's office where my advanced program was holding on the line. They said this program was being held for 30+ mins and they have no idea why.
My current PD said in their 15 years of being involved in resident education, the last time a advanced residency program called them about the a resident, they got fired.They told me, "I don't know what you did, but you need to deal with this now". I've never seen anyone so mad before.
All my peers saw the whole debacle because the PDs office is connected to lounge and you have to walk through that in order to get to the office.
As far as the phone conversation, not much to it to report. The lady I talked to on the phone didn't reveal much (even when I asked), they just said if your still interested in your job here, you need to confirm your attendance on the email we sent 72+ hours ago. She said "You will receive more information soon" I'm not even sure who I was talking to. Didn't get an introduction at all.
So long story short is my attendance is confirmed and I'll be talking with them the first week of January on WebEx.
You started this thread 11 days ago. The advice you got was mostly uniform and you didn’t take it. No one reading this will be surprised that it’s coming to this, and no one will be surprised if this ends in being terminated from the advanced or even prelim program.
Is there a reason you’re handling the situation the way that you are?
Are you interested in trying to salvage things?
Maybe this all started with wishful thinking/being in denial. Maybe there’s an anxiety/depression component. I’m working really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Whatever the reasons for you handling things poorly, you need to do a 180. Now. Seek guidance from a trusted mentor. Be honest about your perceived grievances. Own up to the parts that you screwed up (lying about being hacked, ignoring emails, being hard to reach over the phone and not being in the usual places). Don’t make excuses. Don’t deflect the blame. Show maturity and seem like you’ve had a wake up call and you’re ready to own up and fix things and show your current and future program that you can be a good team player and that you can show up on July 1st ready to learn and have a good attitude.
If you refuse or are just unable to have a good attitude, I’m sure they’ll be willing to release you from your obligation to start the program. That’s probably why they’re having this meeting with you. They want to see if there’s any chance you could be trained or if you want an out. I’m sure they’d rather have the next 6 months to recruit someone else….
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Really and truly... nobody deserves to be made to feel that way. I'm sorry that such an unusual confluence of events occurred that led to this being seen so publicly.
That said, I think you also need to recognize that you are personally responsible for putting yourself in the position where such a thing could happen. You had multiple steps along the path where you could have taken an off-ramp to prevent this from happening, most proximally by just responding to an email that we all advised you to take seriously. What your PD told you to your face yesterday is exactly what we have been trying to tell you from the beginning. Being in denial or hoping that the problem that you have created will just go away is only going to make matters worse.
It sounds like your advanced program wants to try and find a way forward with you as a resident. For this you should consider yourself very, very lucky--as you yourself said, you need a job. Swallow your pride, apologize profusely, tell the truth, and do whatever they tell you to do, and you MIGHT be able to keep your job. This process will be even more humbling and painful, but in 10 years you'll be able to look back at this as a very bad bump in the road that taught you some hard life lessons. I highly suspect that attempting to tell anything other than the truth or accepting full responsibility for this situation could poison your tenuous relationship with your advanced program beyond repair, and in that case in 10 years you would look back and see this as the episode that ruined your career.
I think what makes this entire event hard for us to fully evaluate the situation is the fact we don't know exactly what you wrote in the E-mail. I'm not saying post it, but I'm just saying what you wrote in the E-mail could be either better or worse than what we are thinking in our heads.
For example, 99% of the time people downplay the details of their mistakes.
Depending on some of the specifics of the E-mail, it may not even be possible to salvage a career there. On the other hand, it could actually be much more benign than we are thinking.
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Let’s please heed @GoSpursGo request and not ask for further details, OP needs support now as they face their predicament
If I were you, I’d schedule a sit down with my current PD and let them in on everything. You absolutely need to be fully transparent, and you need to fully own this. Hopefully your current PD can give you the guidance and support to get through this. Going full Leroy Jenkins, as you have been, is only going to make matters worse.
Big Hoss
Big Hoss
I also feel compelled to point out that there are now enough details in this thread, OP, where you almost certainly could be identified if either your current or advanced program were to find this thread. Happy to help and provide additional advice, but you may want to be careful with the unique details that you provide.
You’ve gotten tons of advice, and most of it is good but wasn’t followed. Please do some serious self evaluating to identify your flaws, because they’re pretty apparent to everyone else.
You need to be readily available as a physician. What if your patient was coding and they couldn’t find you for 30+ minutes? Even this lack of accessibility is part of the mistakes that you need to own. It’s almost like at every point where there were two decisions, you picked the wrong one.
I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this. This can be a huge turning point in your career. Either you can recover from it or you keep making the same decisions you’re already making. Hopefully you can turn this around before more damage is done to either you or your patients.
You need to be readily available as a physician. What if your patient was coding and they couldn’t find you for 30+ minutes? Even this lack of accessibility is part of the mistakes that you need to own. It’s almost like at every point where there were two decisions, you picked the wrong one.
I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this. This can be a huge turning point in your career. Either you can recover from it or you keep making the same decisions you’re already making. Hopefully you can turn this around before more damage is done to either you or your patients.
Jumping on here; seeing that you're consistently rolling a natural one in the honesty department, you would do well to observe Immanuel Kant's doctrine of never telling lies in order to recalibrate yourself. If I were you, I would make it a goal to not lie from here on out. If you find yourself continuing to lie, I would consider that a personal flag to go find a professional to explore this issue with you therapeutically because it is causing you to suffer.
I hope good fortune comes your way and know that people generally want the best for you and your aspirations. Do not hesitate to reach out.
I hope good fortune comes your way and know that people generally want the best for you and your aspirations. Do not hesitate to reach out.
As a teaching moment for this Old Fart, what clinical venues would require a resident to NOT have their phone with them?
Qpworueury
Full Member
I was in a patient care activity during that chunk of time
I think what (some) others here are trying to tell you is that you seem to be avoiding some aspects of personal responsibility for your situation, including some follow-up decisions you've made. I understand if it's a self-soothing response to many negative messages online, and you certainly don't need to show people here what you actually feel. But if you truly cannot see your role in the situation, it only denies you of your autonomy, and the ability to grow and avoid similar mistakes in the future.
Being the target of an anonymous mob doesn't feel great, and if it's hard to take criticism in person, the added pressure of the dog-pile won't help. That's understandable. But I would encourage you to take as much relevant advice out of here as you can, and go to your social support systems if you have them. You don't need to post here anymore (in fact, I only think it can hurt, rather than help; most here seem to be in it for the entertainment).
I hope that whatever happens from here on out, you're able to find joy out of your work and life.
If you have a patient coding, you drop your other activities and help resuscitate that patient.
Let me expand this analogy. Your career is coding. You’ve had ample time and opportunity to respond to the code but have shifted blame away from yourself. You should be readily accessible to resuscitate your career. If you want to help patients in the future, your biggest priority should be saving your career that’s actively dying.
Unless, as others have alluded to, you don’t want to save your career and will do anything you can to avoid the program. If that’s the case, then let your program know. Be direct about it.
As I said, you’ve gotten great advice, maybe the most important has been being 100% honest going forward and owning your mistakes. Or, if it’s truly what you desire, leave your future program at risk of sacrificing your career.
Qpworueury
Full Member
I don't think this is a fair analogy. The activity I was involved in is very hard to pull away from unless someone finds you. The only issue this time around was that because of construction, the activity was taking place in a different area than expected
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