MetalloBetalactamase

vaxn8 ya dammt kids dammt!
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Today during cranial lab, a disturbing video was broadcast, at no one in particular, that claimed some of my classmates and/or yours truly might possibly be "in the closet" as "M.D.s" Although it was a parody of Scrillex shown to us all at the start of OMM lab, and I LOLOLed I was taken a bit aback. But then....MRW when.....

Not true.gif
Then I was like...well yes..silently in my own cranium...
I lied to you.gif
And then I thought....
have heard of me.gif
 
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samac

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My OMT class makes me realize how much of one I am... We have it for 4 hours straight once a week and by hour two I'm debating jumping out the window.
I don't really mind learning the procedures.
But sitting on those doctor stools for 4 hours makes me go insane.
 

Mad Jack

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I actually like a lot of OMM. I use it on my gf all the time, and she loves it. But at the end of the day, I won't end up using it in practice, because none of the fields I have a serious interest in at this point have a practical use for OMM. Except maybe if I went into PM&R.

Seriously though, does anyone else's arms and fingers get tired as **** when they're doing OMM? Like, heads are heavy, and my fingers can only take so much.
 
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MetalloBetalactamase

MetalloBetalactamase

vaxn8 ya dammt kids dammt!
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I actually like a lot of OMM. I use it on my gf all the time, and she loves it. But at the end of the day, I won't end up using it in practice, because none of the fields I have a serious interest in at this point have a practical use for OMM. Except maybe if I went into PM&R.

Seriously though, does anyone else's arms and fingers get tired as **** when they're doing OMM? Like, heads are heavy, and my fingers can only take so much.
I don't mind heads, but today we added the sacral component. Asses are heavy.
 

samac

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Seriously though, does anyone else's arms and fingers get tired as **** when they're doing OMM? Like, heads are heavy, and my fingers can only take so much.
I hate the dexterity needed. I broke my thumb when I was 11, and it pops now when I bend it. Going for longer than a minute with Myofascial release, or any kind if kneading motion really starts to hurt. I'm not sure how to deal with it yet.
Probably gonna get smoked for this, but I actually like omm.

Let the crucifying begin.
Hey you're allowed to like it, there are people in my class who like it. I'm just not one of them, though POM was my highest block exam grade.....

I don't mind heads, but today we added the sacral component. Asses are heavy.
Do we go to the same school? We all learn the same stuff at the same time lol
 

Goro

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Just hold your nose, suspend your disbelief, and see if you can learn anything useful. Those bones do NOT move, but the technique itself might be efficacious, even if based upon a tactile delusion (or, more precisely, observer bias). Palpatory skills are always useful.

Nothing wrong with ending up being a "assimilated DO". You'll still have the Osteopathic approach to patients, even if you never, ever use OMT again after med school.
 

NontradCA

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Just hold your nose, suspend your disbelief, and see if you can learn anything useful. Those bones do NOT move, but the technique itself might be efficacious, even if based upon a tactile delusion (or, more precisely, observer bias). Palpatory skills are always useful.

Nothing wrong with ending up being a "assimilated DO". You'll still have the Osteopathic approach to patients, even if you never, ever use OMT again after med school.
Wut
 
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My OMT class makes me realize how much of one I am... We have it for 4 hours straight once a week and by hour two I'm debating jumping out the window.
I don't really mind learning the procedures.
But sitting on those doctor stools for 4 hours makes me go insane.
You will get used to it after a while, then when you go to clinical rotations, you never have to see that OMM lab again. You would be surprised, some people genuinely like it, they see it as interesting, not a way to make easy money as opposed to other more stressful fields of Medicine.
 

NOsaintsfan

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Cranial and Chapman's points are about as legit as a voodoo doll. Anyone who buys into that is doing so on "faith" and nothing more.

It's a shame because their is a lot of good OMM but cranial and Chapman's points makes most people skeptical on all OMM. The fact that they put that stuff on our board exams is embarrassing. It's just one of the reasons why the VAST MAJORITY of DO's don't do a lick of OMM past 2nd year of medical school.

I'm proud to be a physician but it's very difficult to defend a profession that emphasizes witch doctor crap (cranial) on its licensure exams.
 

NOsaintsfan

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Just hold your nose, suspend your disbelief, and see if you can learn anything useful. Those bones do NOT move, but the technique itself might be efficacious, even if based upon a tactile delusion (or, more precisely, observer bias). Palpatory skills are always useful.

Nothing wrong with ending up being a "assimilated DO". You'll still have the Osteopathic approach to patients, even if you never, ever use OMT again after med school.
What does that mean exactly?
 
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Cranial and Chapman's points are about as legit as a voodoo doll. Anyone who buys into that is doing so on "faith" and nothing more.

It's a shame because their is a lot of good OMM but cranial and Chapman's points makes most people skeptical on all OMM. The fact that they put that stuff on our board exams is embarrassing. It's just one of the reasons why the VAST MAJORITY of DO's don't do a lick of OMM past 2nd year of medical school.

I'm proud to be a physician but it's very difficult to defend a profession that emphasizes witch doctor crap (cranial) on its licensure exams.
That is one of the reasons why its so hard for many students to find a DO to shadow that practices manipulation. Most DOs practice the same Medicine as MDs. Whatever the OP is thinking she will forget after she graduates, in the real world no one is going to care if she is a "closet MD" because in the real world, its mostly MDs out there.
 
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NOsaintsfan

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That is one of the reasons why its so hard for many students to find a DO to shadow that practices manipulation. Most DOs practice the same Medicine as MDs. Whatever the OP is thinking she will forget after she graduates, in the real world no one is going to care if she is a "closet MD" because in the real world, its mostly MDs out there.
Exactly. Post medical school DO=MD in every way. The only exception being the very few docs who practice manipulation. If the AOA would invest a little effort in OMM research and not be afraid of the results then certain OMM treatments potentially could become standard of care. It's time to put things like cranial and Chapman's points on hold until they can be proven to actually exist.
 

Shinobiz11

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I'm not sure if MD students do surface anatomy lab, but because of OMM class, it makes finding stuff super easy. My palpating skills are off the chiz-ain and touching people isn't really awkward anymore. Also I love diagnosing innominates, something about seeing that physical side of medicine with bones and muscles is awesome. I don't really like OMM, but I definitely see it's purposes and the good things that come out of it. Also, not sure about people who complain about having to take an extra class, but it's pretty simple stuff if you practice and learn trigger words.
 

Goro

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I have observed differences in the way DOs and MDs practice Medicine. Others have not, including our DO colleagues here. IF you've noticed these differences, that is what I am talking about.

Do keep in mind that our good MD colleagues get offended by the notion that DOs have a monopoly on holistic patient care.


"Assimilated DO" was a term used by a former DO colleague of mine. He was one of the "true believers" who elevated osteopathy to a religious level. He used the term as a derogatory; I use it with amusement because 99% of the stuff MDs and DOs do is the same, hence he was talking down 95% of his DO colleagues and our students, for that matter.. He no longer is employed at my university, BTW.

Agree with the comments on Chapman's points as well. I rank them with other unproven claims. I'll accept them when someone can show me a histology slide with one.

So to reiterate, just see what you can learn. Even medical leeches still have a medicinal use!

What does that mean exactly?
 

NOsaintsfan

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It doesn't mean anything. Self-delusion that we are somehow "different" than our counterparts.
I see it simply as marketing. It's a pitch to "sell" DO schools to pre-meds.

The truth is all physicians are tought to look at the whole patient. Not just DO's
 
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NOsaintsfan

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To be clear I think the AOA is selling OMM short. By emphizing (and testing) stuff like Chapman's and cranial it skews the view of OMM as a whole. It causes many to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

It's time to redirect the focus of OMM to things that are based on more than just a belief system and bring OMM into the mainstream.

If the AOA were to put some real research behind OMM then they could alter the standard of care that all physicians would adopt, MD and DO alike. This is what should make osteopathic medicine distinct but sadly that isn't the case.
 
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To be clear I think the AOA is selling OMM short. By emphizing (and testing) stuff like Chapman's and cranial it can skew the opinion of OMM as a whole. It causes many to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

It's time to redirect the focus of OMM on things that are based on more than just a belief system and bring OMM into the mainstream.

If the AOA were to put some real research behind OMM then they could alter the standard of care that all physicians would adopt, MD and DO alike. This is what should make osteopathic medicine distinct but sadly that isn't the case.
I don't see much research into OMM happening, mostly because very few DOs actually practice manipulation therapy in the real world. And the DO profession despite the fact it has been growing is still a small one. To get good data you need a large population of DOs that practice these therapies but you don't.
 

NOsaintsfan

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I don't see much research into OMM happening, mostly because very few DOs actually practice manipulation therapy in the real world. And the DO profession despite the fact it has been growing is still a small one. To get good data you need a large population of DOs that practice these therapies but you don't.
It could easily happen. Every osteopathic residency program should be doing intense research into the effectiveness of various OMM treatments. I realize that some research is occurring but not nearly enough.

I also understand that it is difficult to do research since it's basically impossible to double blind any manipulative therapy but that doesn't mean studies cant be done in a reproducible way. It's an outrage that the profession has been around for over a century and such little research exists.
 

HotLunch96

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Ehhh just get rid of the DO degree, make all schools MD with the option to get a certificate/diploma in OMM/OMT for those that are interested. Open up OMT to every medical student across the country who wants to do it.
The DO "identity" and "uniqueness" is too ingrained in the AOA. They are motivated to keep the DO degree going and market it as "unique, patient-centered, holistic" because it allows them to fabricate a distinction to justify their own existence. They're not just going to give up the money and control they have. Plus, the AOA and COCA have the ability to literally print money by allowing new schools to open with sub-par accreditation standards as compared to the LCME
 
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Shinobiz11

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To be clear I think the AOA is selling OMM short. By emphizing (and testing) stuff like Chapman's and cranial it skews the view of OMM as a whole. It causes many to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

It's time to redirect the focus of OMM to things that are based on more than just a belief system and bring OMM into the mainstream.

If the AOA were to put some real research behind OMM then they could alter the standard of care that all physicians would adopt, MD and DO alike. This is what should make osteopathic medicine distinct but sadly that isn't the case.
Take it up with your local SOMA chapter. That's what I plan on doing once it get's rolling a bit.
 

Shinobiz11

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I see it simply as marketing. It's a pitch to "sell" DO schools to pre-meds.

The truth is all physicians are tought to look at the whole patient. Not just DO's
No offense to anyone, but it's also to make you feel good about not getting into MD.
"hey i didnt make it to the big names, but im gonna be a more compassionate doctor than those guys!" Every time I see one of those DO = MD + super-chiropractor + holistic-ness-ossity-ation-ality, I cringe.

Edit: didnt mean to double post >.<
 
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Goro

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With the opening of CNU, I think LCME is trying to play catch up to COCA in this regard!

The DO "identity" and "uniqueness" is too ingrained in the AOA. They are motivated to keep the DO degree going and market it as "unique, patient-centered, holistic" because it allows them to fabricate a distinction to justify their own existence. They're not just going to give up the money and control they have. Plus, the AOA and COCA have the ability to literally print money by allowing new schools to open with sub-par accreditation standards as compared to the LCME
 
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I have a mild-intermediate form of palmar/plantar hyperhidrosis which I never much thought of until I found out the stress of medical school (or, particularly, having someone stare at your hands for OMM practicals) exacerbates it to an uncomfortable degree. My hands swell, and I lose sensitivity in my digits which makes palpation of some structures difficult, and of course, my sweaty hands make the patient uncomfortable. So, if you guys think you can't stand OMM... I actually don't mind it or learning about it, but I obviously will never practice it due to this. My dermatologist is ready to make me spend a grand on a bunch of treatments for it though.
 

jw3600

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The DO Difference/The DO Distinction is the crap perpetuated by the COM faculty and old guard AOA'ers that holds the profession back. We must rid this us vs them mentality.
Nah keep the us vs. them mentality. Just understand that "us" is now current DO students and residents and "them" is the AOA officers and all of the faculty members at the COMs.

Edit: I should say administrative members of the COMs. Most of the Phd and clinicians that teach are doing solid work and aren't really contributing to the problem.
 
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Launcelot

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Some of my classmates are hilariously bad at OMM and don't have the patience to get any better at it. Needless to say, there are usually more than a couple sore backs (both from administering OMT and have OMT done on) after every lab. :rofl:

I've done grappling and a lot of the understanding that comes from leveraging someone's arm out of place transitions well to actually having a decent sense of what's comfortable and what's not from both the provider and patient's perspective. I don't know anything yet about how effective OMM actually is, but you have to make sure YOU'RE physically comfortable while doing some of the stuff so you don't strain your back or your wrist. That means lowering the table, adjusting your seat, and even using your body weight and gravity when you need it.

I've heard of people making pretty good money by adding OMT to their practice, if that's any incentive for a closet allopath. ;)
 
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The DO "identity" and "uniqueness" is too ingrained in the AOA. They are motivated to keep the DO degree going and market it as "unique, patient-centered, holistic" because it allows them to fabricate a distinction to justify their own existence. They're not just going to give up the money and control they have. Plus, the AOA and COCA have the ability to literally print money by allowing new schools to open with sub-par accreditation standards as compared to the LCME
And also they get applicants who cannot get into LCME schools who would otherwise head for Caribbean or other offshore schools. And almost all the DO schools conveniently put into their mission statements they exist to create primary care doctors for underserved communties, so as long as they are churning out primary care doctors, no one cares.

My school is one of the few that actively encourages its students to pursue specialties and doesn't force feed primary care down our students' throats like so many schools.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Some of my classmates are hilariously bad at OMM and don't have the patience to get any better at it. Needless to say, there are usually more than a couple sore backs (both from administering OMT and have OMT done on) after every lab. :rofl:

I've done grappling and a lot of the understanding that comes from leveraging someone's arm out of place transitions well to actually having a decent sense of what's comfortable and what's not from both the provider and patient's perspective. I don't know anything yet about how effective OMM actually is, but you have to make sure YOU'RE physically comfortable while doing some of the stuff so you don't strain your back or your wrist. That means lowering the table, adjusting your seat, and even using your body weight and gravity when you need it.

I've heard of people making pretty good money by adding OMT to their practice, if that's any incentive for a closet allopath. ;)

My main failure to comprehend with OMM is that I don't think it's reasonable even when it does work. You do OMM for like 10 minutes on a patient and make their pain or dysfunction lessen for a day. This is not reasonable to compare to that of say a physical therapist who is committed to doing therapy all day and the patient can have multiple sessions without disrupting my capacity to see patients with more serious concerns and needs.