ACEP dysfunction….. latest proof

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EctopicFetus

EctopicFetus

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Have you guys seen the latest stupidity coming out of ACEP?
So, I just read that ACEP is considering opening its doors to non-physicians for membership. Let me get this straight: an organization that is supposed to represent PHYSICIANS is actually thinking about diluting our voice by letting in non-physicians? Are we really doing this?

Look, I respect the roles of everyone in the healthcare system, but let’s be clear: ACEP was created to advocate for EMERGENCY PHYSICIANS. You know, the ones who went through med school, grueling residencies, and board certification to EARN that title. Opening membership to non-physicians doesn’t make ACEP “inclusive” — it makes it irrelevant as a PHYSICIAN-focused organization.

If this goes through, what’s next? Should we let anyone with a stethoscope join? This isn’t a social club, it’s supposed to be a professional organization dedicated to advancing emergency medicine from the physician’s perspective. Why are we even entertaining the idea of undermining our own profession?

ACEP, do better. Keep membership for physicians only. If people want a space for non-physicians, they can create their own organization. But don’t water down OURS. This is beyond frustrating, and I hope everyone reading this speaks out to stop this nonsense.

Hopefully no one on here is a member. Good news is they can become the American College of Emergency Providers and not have to change their acronym. Even better we can soon have Jenny mcjennerson DNP, DTF, RN, BSN, WAP, ACLS, BLS,Cerner superuse running the show for us.
 
Doesn’t the ‘P’ in ACEP essentially stand for physicians?

This is why I’ve never joined acep. And likely never will.
 
The actual thread is more about including rural FPs practicing EM as potential affiliate members, not APPs. Those in the short threat that discussed APPs generally were not in favor of including them under the ACEP banner.

I think the general attitude in this forum about organized medicine is extremely misguided. Nobody likes paying dues to organizations like ACEP or AMA and at times criticisms of their priorities are warranted. Still, ACEP is the largest political block of EM physicians and carries much more weight than AAEM does in Washington. Your reimbursement and position within the house of medicine is fought for through your state and national specialty societies, medical societies, and the RUC. Where would we be without the TMA suing Biden's HHS? Or multiple specialty societies including ACEP lobbying to avert Medicare cuts every damn year? The answer for more push and a better realization for a stronger emergency medicine specialty is for more of the disaffected to actually get involved, not sit around complaining on an anonymous forum.
 
Torsion said:
The actual thread is more about including rural FPs practicing EM as potential affiliate members, not APPs. Those in the short threat that discussed APPs generally were not in favor of including them under the ACEP banner.

I think the general attitude in this forum about organized medicine is extremely misguided. Nobody likes paying dues to organizations like ACEP or AMA and at times criticisms of their priorities are warranted. Still, ACEP is the largest political block of EM physicians and carries much more weight than AAEM does in Washington. Your reimbursement and position within the house of medicine is fought for through your state and national specialty societies, medical societies, and the RUC. Where would we be without the TMA suing Biden's HHS? Or multiple specialty societies including ACEP lobbying to avert Medicare cuts every damn year? The answer for more push and a better realization for a stronger emergency medicine specialty is for more of the disaffected to actually get involved, not sit around complaining on an anonymous forum.
Click to expand...

Disagree with the following points

ACEP, as far as I can tell, is largely interested in protecting corporate profits rather than individual physicians. Look at "all the things" it's done for us that you mentioned. Notice a theme? it's all revenue-based. ACEP did not do one thing--not one damn thing--about residency expansion or say anything about Envision's corporate practice of medicine (entirely AAEM driven) or anything that actually improves the day-to-day practice of EM for individual physicians. ACEP is entirely silent on falling board passing rates or IMG encroachment or anything at all about the actual quality of medicine. They are revenue, revenue, revenue. Even their focus on boarding patients is really just about revenue.

They are essentially a revenue arm for corporate practice that tricks physicians into giving them money. If we didn't and ACEP shut down CMGs would have to open a more direct and obvious revenue-lobbying arm, just losing the moniker of it being physician-based.

Personally, I saw the sinking ship and got out. This titanic has too many holes to patch and I'm young enough to pivot. The only org that I see that seems to actually care is AAEM, and I still gladly pay my dues to them. ACEP? Never again. I drank the residency Kool-Aid, saw it for what is was and never went back.

You are correct that they are a bigger voice in Washington than AAEM, but I see that as something to improve rather than rely on the abusive relationship we have with ACEP.

It was always built to fail. I had a thread a few years back--probably needs updated--about what percentage of their board is CMG employed. It was like 40%. You cannot serve two masters. You must choose. Patients or profit.

ACEP chose profit.
 
I'm hoping that means their actual physician membership has been dwindling so they're cash-strapped.

Edit: A quick look at their 2023 Form 990 shows they lost $3.679M which seems to be their worse year in decades. Couldn't happen to a better organization.
 
Torsion said:
The actual thread is more about including rural FPs practicing EM as potential affiliate members, not APPs. Those in the short threat that discussed APPs generally were not in favor of including them under the ACEP banner.

I think the general attitude in this forum about organized medicine is extremely misguided. Nobody likes paying dues to organizations like ACEP or AMA and at times criticisms of their priorities are warranted. Still, ACEP is the largest political block of EM physicians and carries much more weight than AAEM does in Washington. Your reimbursement and position within the house of medicine is fought for through your state and national specialty societies, medical societies, and the RUC. Where would we be without the TMA suing Biden's HHS? Or multiple specialty societies including ACEP lobbying to avert Medicare cuts every damn year? The answer for more push and a better realization for a stronger emergency medicine specialty is for more of the disaffected to actually get involved, not sit around complaining on an anonymous forum.
Click to expand...

Most people don't understand nuance.

I'm not an ACEP fanboi but we'd be making 150/hr without them.

Most people are content to work for Envision or a mega hospital system and yell at the clouds than find a well run SDG and get involved in organized medicine.
 
AlmostAnMD said:
It was always built to fail. I had a thread a few years back--probably needs updated--about what percentage of their board is CMG employed. It was like 40%. You cannot serve two masters. You must choose. Patients or profit.
Click to expand...
Did the numbers for you. At this point it looks like maybe 3 of 15 have clear CMG ties although most advertise it less than Cirillo. Another 5 or 6 are from what look like pretty clear SDGs of varying sizes. The rest all show academic appointments although academic appointments can hide all sorts of connections to CMG's. I'm not willing to do the deep dive to figure out who in the academics has grants, clinical appointments, or other connections to CMGs.

Bottom line was that too often I found ACEP lobbying for the opposite side of how I was voting so I figured my advocacy dollars could go somewhere more targeted to my beliefs.
 
WhatJobDoIPick said:
Most people don't understand nuance.

I'm not an ACEP fanboi but we'd be making 150/hr without them.

Most people are content to work for Envision or a mega hospital system and yell at the clouds than find a well run SDG and get involved in organized medicine.
Click to expand...
ACEP is cancer to our specialty. They are suckling at the teet of private equity.
 
WhatJobDoIPick said:
Most people don't understand nuance.

I'm not an ACEP fanboi but we'd be making 150/hr without them.

Most people are content to work for Envision or a mega hospital system and yell at the clouds than find a well run SDG and get involved in organized medicine.
Click to expand...
This is the standard lie coming from ACEP. No we wouldn’t. The pay that we get has 0 to do with ACEP. Have you seen how we compare comp wise to other specialties. We have had the smallest increase (I believe it was a decrease) over the past 5 years (I cant remember the time frame). They did a bad job, pander to cmgs and tightly control who has power. Horrible org.
 
So the pitch is we should support ACEP while our pay has gone in the toilet relative to our peers. Burnout is the highest.. Seemingly using burnout as an inverse adjunct for job satisfaction we hate our jobs the most and our pay has taken a dump since covid relative to others.

Its also comical to me give that about 90% of docs work for a CMG or a hospital system you think our pay is based on anything other than supply/demand. One of the people on the FB group said it best and pointed this out. How many people on here have said they haven't had a raise in 10 years etc. Same on the FB group. So the increase in wRVUs isn't lining up with actual money and this chart above is proof. The rulers of our kingdom are pocketing more dough and its not trickling down to us.
 
EctopicFetus said:
So the pitch is we should support ACEP while our pay has gone in the toilet relative to our peers. Burnout is the highest.. Seemingly using burnout as an inverse adjunct for job satisfaction we hate our jobs the most and our pay has taken a dump since covid relative to others.

It’s also comical to me give that about 90% of docs work for a CMG or a hospital system you think our pay is based on anything other than supply/demand. One of the people on the FB group said it best and pointed this out. How many people on here have said they haven't had a raise in 10 years etc. Same on the FB group. So the increase in wRVUs isn't lining up with actual money and this chart above is proof. The rulers of our kingdom are pocketing more dough and it’s not trickling down to us.
Click to expand...
But we’re too negative!!!
Lol
 
Torsion said:
The actual thread is more about including rural FPs practicing EM as potential affiliate members, not APPs. Those in the short threat that discussed APPs generally were not in favor of including them under the ACEP banner.

I think the general attitude in this forum about organized medicine is extremely misguided. Nobody likes paying dues to organizations like ACEP or AMA and at times criticisms of their priorities are warranted. Still, ACEP is the largest political block of EM physicians and carries much more weight than AAEM does in Washington. Your reimbursement and position within the house of medicine is fought for through your state and national specialty societies, medical societies, and the RUC. Where would we be without the TMA suing Biden's HHS? Or multiple specialty societies including ACEP lobbying to avert Medicare cuts every damn year? The answer for more push and a better realization for a stronger emergency medicine specialty is for more of the disaffected to actually get involved, not sit around complaining on an anonymous forum.
Click to expand...

When I read that I literally said out loud "Where's HONEY BADGER?!"

1*E57-t3wEBVZU0AJxtEb0sQ.jpg


Honey Badger to the rescue! @EctopicFetus

@Torsion give up now! Resistance is futile.
 
Groove said:
When I read that I literally said out loud "Where's HONEY BADGER?!"

View attachment 396274

Honey Badger to the rescue! @EctopicFetus

@Torsion give up now! Resistance is futile.
Click to expand...
I mean if you look at the burnout.. we are 10% higher than #2.. From #2 almost all the way to the bottom is the next 10%.. wild how much crappier we have it.
 
The answers to your criticisms about ACEP are to become more involved, not less. Many of your concerns about ACEP's representation and priorities have historically been valid, but as mentioned above, there is currently not a disproportionate number of CMG affiliates on the board. In fact, there are disproportionately less than the market share of such jobs. Should there be as many ivory-tower types on the board? Probably not. Run for a position. And what about state chapters? My state chapter board has several SDG members in a state overrun by corporate groups.

What is your alternative for advocacy? ACEP has 38,000 members. AAEM has 8,000. If you can, join both. A question often asked by congress in DC and also by state government representatives is "how many people do you represent." The smaller the number, the less likely your concerns will be listened to. At LAC last year a well known senator said that if physicians want to be listened to on Capitol Hill they need to organize and sell their message much better. Until we do that, the health insurance industry and the AHA are going to eat us for lunch.

If you are on this thread criticizing ACEP for inaction, I sincerely hope you have participating in advocacy at the state and local level through an alternative organization and/or are aggressively working to expand AAEM to a higher level of national clout. If you are just an arm chair general, you are no better than people who never vote in state or national elections because "the system is against me, man..."

If you don't think that ACEP, the largest representation of EPs by a factor of 5, is advocating for our interests fiercely enough (and I've shared the sentiment myself and continue to for certain issues), you are the exact kind of person the organization could use to help right the ship.

Groove said:
Honey Badger to the rescue! @EctopicFetus

@Torsion give up now! Resistance is futile.
Click to expand...

Great contribution to the discussion. You must be an intellectual titan.
 
Torsion said:
The answers to your criticisms about ACEP are to become more involved, not less. Many of your concerns about ACEP's representation and priorities have historically been valid, but as mentioned above, there is currently not a disproportionate number of CMG affiliates on the board. In fact, there are disproportionately less than the market share of such jobs. Should there be as many ivory-tower types on the board? Probably not. Run for a position. And what about state chapters? My state chapter board has several SDG members in a state overrun by corporate groups.

What is your alternative for advocacy? ACEP has 38,000 members. AAEM has 8,000. If you can, join both. A question often asked by congress in DC and also by state government representatives is "how many people do you represent." The smaller the number, the less likely your concerns will be listened to. At LAC last year a well known senator said that if physicians want to be listened to on Capitol Hill they need to organize and sell their message much better. Until we do that, the health insurance industry and the AHA are going to eat us for lunch.

If you are on this thread criticizing ACEP for inaction, I sincerely hope you have participating in advocacy at the state and local level through an alternative organization and/or are aggressively working to expand AAEM to a higher level of national clout. If you are just an arm chair general, you are no better than people who never vote in state or national elections because "the system is against me, man..."

If you don't think that ACEP, the largest representation of EPs by a factor of 5, is advocating for our interests fiercely enough (and I've shared the sentiment myself and continue to for certain issues), you are the exact kind of person the organization could use to help right the ship.



Great contribution to the discussion. You must be an intellectual titan.
Click to expand...
Find a useless organization and get involved and give it my money.. no.. let them fail and fall apart first. Cirillo is the new king to be. Envision folding has been very bad for ACEP. I was on my state board before. Been there done that. ACEP sucks. I have met with my US house rep.. face to face about 1-2 months ago. One of the docs at my hospital is a state rep.

I’ll say I dont think the current iteration deserves to be saved. It needs to fully collapse on itself. I have spoken with senators and let me assure you.. their impression is ACEP = PE. I support AAEM but im in no position to get them to “a higher level of clout”.

I wasnt acep to collapse. I dont think it will happen in my career. Just slowly dying on the vine.

you mention TMA but i didnt see acep there. I have heard they are trying to support TMA but no proof of this. At least AAEM had the balls to sue in California and it led to envision leaving california.

ACEP is a lot of hot air. CEDR is a horrible program and the cost is stupid. Maybe it will get better. But it doesnt seem like they have a lot to offer.
 
That's why we all need to get a second job (maybe even telemedicine) so when the time is right we can give the middle finger to them.
 
Torsion said:
The answers to your criticisms about ACEP are to become more involved, not less. Many of your concerns about ACEP's representation and priorities have historically been valid, but as mentioned above, there is currently not a disproportionate number of CMG affiliates on the board. In fact, there are disproportionately less than the market share of such jobs. Should there be as many ivory-tower types on the board? Probably not. Run for a position. And what about state chapters? My state chapter board has several SDG members in a state overrun by corporate groups.

What is your alternative for advocacy? ACEP has 38,000 members. AAEM has 8,000. If you can, join both. A question often asked by congress in DC and also by state government representatives is "how many people do you represent." The smaller the number, the less likely your concerns will be listened to. At LAC last year a well known senator said that if physicians want to be listened to on Capitol Hill they need to organize and sell their message much better. Until we do that, the health insurance industry and the AHA are going to eat us for lunch.

If you are on this thread criticizing ACEP for inaction, I sincerely hope you have participating in advocacy at the state and local level through an alternative organization and/or are aggressively working to expand AAEM to a higher level of national clout. If you are just an arm chair general, you are no better than people who never vote in state or national elections because "the system is against me, man..."

If you don't think that ACEP, the largest representation of EPs by a factor of 5, is advocating for our interests fiercely enough (and I've shared the sentiment myself and continue to for certain issues), you are the exact kind of person the organization could use to help right the ship.



Great contribution to the discussion. You must be an intellectual titan.
Click to expand...

Most politics is local and people would rather should at the clouds than take proactive steps to get involved.
 
Torsion said:
The actual thread is more about including rural FPs practicing EM as potential affiliate members, not APPs. Those in the short threat that discussed APPs generally were not in favor of including them under the ACEP banner.

I think the general attitude in this forum about organized medicine is extremely misguided. Nobody likes paying dues to organizations like ACEP or AMA and at times criticisms of their priorities are warranted. Still, ACEP is the largest political block of EM physicians and carries much more weight than AAEM does in Washington. Your reimbursement and position within the house of medicine is fought for through your state and national specialty societies, medical societies, and the RUC. Where would we be without the TMA suing Biden's HHS? Or multiple specialty societies including ACEP lobbying to avert Medicare cuts every damn year? The answer for more push and a better realization for a stronger emergency medicine specialty is for more of the disaffected to actually get involved, not sit around complaining on an anonymous forum.
Click to expand...

The issue has never been about paying dues to organized medicine to represent our interests.

The issue is that despite paying dues, ACEP doesn't represent the interests of Emergency Physicians.
 
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