Active duty tours during med school

[adamg]

I have read conflicting reports on active duty tours during med school.

Some say its in the middle of summer, so its not in conflict with your classes, others mention them being scheduled during the regular semesters.

Can someone who is in HPSP explain what is true and what's not?

I am interested in HPSP because, as I understand it, it dosn't interfere with my medical school studies.

But if it does then I can't do it.

So what is the truth?

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[Bubblehead-to-MD]

I have read conflicting reports on active duty tours during med school.

Some say its in the middle of summer, so its not in conflict with your classes, others mention them being scheduled during the regular semesters.

Can someone who is in HPSP explain what is true and what's not?

I am interested in HPSP because, as I understand it, it dosn't interfere with my medical school studies.

But if it does then I can't do it.

So what is the truth?

What you have heard is true on both counts, and is not conflicting. Remember, these "active duty" tours are not necessarily what you think they are. During your clinical years, these active duty tours will likely be away rotations at military medical centers...hence why they may be scheduled during what you would typically consider an academic semester.

Typically, however, the first couple of AT's will be scheduled during the summer following first and second year. At school orders have become much more common due to funding constraints on travel to away locations. So, you may be able to get one or two AT assignments to your school to conduct research, study for boards, etc. In these cases, the active duty tour will be transparent to you.

Keep in mind that you should complete your service specific officer development training during one of these AT assignments (typically the summer after first year).

 

[adamg]

hold on, so the first two years Active duty is during the summer break, first one is COT, then its military med rotations.

After 2 years, in 3rd year of med school they schedule active duty during semester but allow you to basically just do what you are doing anyway?

This is a rather important detail.

Because med school moves so fast you can't just leave for 30-45 days and hope to still pass the classes.

 

[Bubblehead-to-MD]

hold on, so the first two years Active duty is during the summer break, first one is COT, then its military med rotations.

After 2 years, in 3rd year of med school they schedule active duty during semester but allow you to basically just do what you are doing anyway?

This is a rather important detail.

Because med school moves so fast you can't just leave for 30-45 days and hope to still pass the classes.

At the medical schools that I am aware of, you are no longer "taking classes" during your 3rd and 4th years - you are typically assigned to clinical clerkships for anywhere from 4 - 12 weeks. Further, YOU schedule your 45 days of active duty training (THEY DO NOT!) during a period that works best with your schedule.

 

[spicedmanna]

hold on, so the first two years Active duty is during the summer break, first one is COT, then its military med rotations.

After 2 years, in 3rd year of med school they schedule active duty during semester but allow you to basically just do what you are doing anyway?

This is a rather important detail.

Because med school moves so fast you can't just leave for 30-45 days and hope to still pass the classes.

If you are taking a 4-year HPSP scholarship, you are required to complete 4 ADT's. Here is the usual progression:

1) Summer before MS-I: COT
2) Summer between MS-I and II: SAM, or other option
3) MS-III: 1 ADT rotation at a base (deferrable until MS-IV, if desired)
4) MS-IV: 1 ADT rotation at a base

 

[Aegis]

I'm finishing up my last ADT in a couple of months. I've had questions about this before and here is the answer I got from the people that make the rules.
1)you have to do four ADTs while in med school
2)your first one is done when you go to COT, which is best to do the summer before first year. Some people do opt to do it before second year however
3) For the remaining three the options vary. A lot of people (Air Force) do the SAMS course in the summer before second year. SAMS is only 2 weeks long, the other 30 days you sit at home and do whatever it is that you do. Which brings up a good point that your ADTs are 45 days, but rarely will you do something that is 45 days long. If you set up a military rotation in your third or fourth year its typically 30 days. You just happen to be on active duty for an extra 15 days, doesn't mean anything, just that you get payed more. Another option some people do is.. well, they don't do anything. You can get something called a "paper tour", which basically means you don't have to report anywhere you continue your business at your home school while being on an ADT.
5) Keep in mind ( I found this out late) that after you do COT there is NO set rule that says you have to do one ADT each year. In fact I was informed from AFIT that I could stack three ADTs togeather in my third year if I really wanted to as long as I did not exceed 4 in the 4 years of med school..

 

[adamg]

So you can do COT the summer before you start your first year? That was what I was hoping, get it out of the way so that the summer break between year 1,2 can be free for studying, (I think most study for boards, some do clinical).

I hope you can help me with the scheduling issue.

I am applying in summer 2009, (june 1, first day possible) to all my med schools, hoping to have acceptance letters by nov or dec.

Could you please tell me what is the earliest application dates for HPSP?

I think there is a deadline in september or october, but I will obviously have missed it.

Can you apply anytime after the deadline for the next year? Or do applications open at some point like may or june?

If I go to a HPSP recruiter and get my package all set up and apply the first day possible, how fast will it take to get accepted into the program? (I have a 3.97 gpa and will easily get 30+ on mcat so I have no doubts about getting accepted)

Would it be possible to do COT right after getting in to HPSP?

I know that my #1 med school, U of M TC has august orientation and classes also begin in august.

Would it be possible to do COT in June or even May? That would allow me to get COT out of the way and also have time to pre-study for year 1.

 

[Bubblehead-to-MD]

Would it be possible to do COT in June or even May? That would allow me to get COT out of the way and also have time to pre-study for year 1.

I know absolutely nothing about COT, so I cannot help you there. However, one bit of advice I can give you is to NOT pre-study for year 1! Unless you are getting a head start on your actual medical school curriculum, that will ultimately be extremely low yield, and therefore a huge waste of your time.

 

[notdeadyet]

However, one bit of advice I can give you is to NOT pre-study for year 1!

Agreed. I think that any medical student will give you the same advice. It's not worth your time. If you did well enough to get accepted to the school, you have the foundation of knowledge you'll need to build on. Pre-studying is only going to end up taxing precious brain matter you'll need later. Do COT or just relax, but dear god don't start studying early. You'll be spending years studying medicine. Best to recharge your batteries so that you can hit the ground running when you begin.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I am interested in HPSP because, as I understand it, it dosn't interfere with my medical school studies.

But if it does then I can't do it.

So what is the truth?

The truth is that HPSP WILL interfere with your medical school studies. It interfered with mine in 3 significant instances:
1) During the summer between 1st and 2nd year I had to take a useless aerospace medicine course rather than doing research which would have given me a good opportunity as well as residency application points.
2) During the most important part of my med school career (early 4th year) I had to go rotate at a program I had no interesting in matching in to manipulate my way through the military match to get what I wanted (a civilian deferral for residency) instead of rotating at one of my dream programs.
3) Late in 4th year I had to do an internal medicine ADT that was useless when the rest of my colleagues were either taking fluff courses or something to round out their med school experience (or just taking time off before residency, but I had to still be in school in order to receive the stipend)

The HPSP scholarship/being a military doctor requries a great deal of sacrifice, but those we serve sacrifice even more than we do. These sacrifices you make in medical school are small compared to the ones you will make later, such as missing your child's birth, having your family moved against your will, far from loved ones, to a state (or even another country) you have no desire to live in, or being deployed to a hell-hole (boredom or being shot at) for 4-15 months at a time. Perhaps the greatest sacrifice you may make is what many refer to as career suicide as you get poor training or suffer skill atrophy.

Lest you think I'm being all high and mighty, I freely acknowledge that had I seen the end from the beginning, and known the sacrifices I've been called on to make (and I've had it easy) there is no way I would have signed up for military medicine.

 

[adamg]

ActivedutyMD, what specialty are you?

You mention an IM rotation you where not interested in and skill atrophy, so I am assuming you are some sort of surgeon?

I have read a lot on these forums that highly specialized fields such as dermo, or surgery have problems with getting matched with the residencies they want or keeping up with skills in the face of a lot of general medicine.

However I think it wouldn't be an issue for me as I am planning on going into FP or IM.

So general cases is not something I upon with dread.

From what I understand FP/IM/Primary care docs in the navy have little trouble getting straight through to residency and don't face the skill atrophy problem, since they are useing their skills on a daily basis.

Does anyone know if this is incorrect? Know any FP, IM or primary care docs in the military who are having, had similar problems with residency matching or skill underutilization?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

ActivedutyMD, what specialty are you?

You mention an IM rotation you where not interested in and skill atrophy, so I am assuming you are some sort of surgeon?

I have read a lot on these forums that highly specialized fields such as dermo, or surgery have problems with getting matched with the residencies they want or keeping up with skills in the face of a lot of general medicine.

However I think it wouldn't be an issue for me as I am planning on going into FP or IM.

So general cases is not something I upon with dread.

From what I understand FP/IM/Primary care docs in the navy have little trouble getting straight through to residency and don't face the skill atrophy problem, since they are useing their skills on a daily basis.

Does anyone know if this is incorrect? Know any FP, IM or primary care docs in the military who are having, had similar problems with residency matching or skill underutilization?

1) I'm an emergency doc

2) I thought I was going to do primary care when I was applying to med school. I changed my mind as an MSII. Most med students do change.

3) The internists I know don't see enough sick patients to stay on top of things. That's probably okay for those planning on an outpatient only practice, but not okay for those who want to do some hospital work. The FPs who were stuck in the active duty only clinic suffer from skill atrophy as well. IM subspecialists get hosed (cards, GI etc).

In general, skill atrophy isn't as big a deal for a primary care doctor as opposed to medical or surgical subspecialists or emergency docs.

4) The reason my IM rotation was useless was that it was an inpatient service with 2 patients on it most of the month. It was supposed to be a Sub-I. What a contrast to my civilian medical school experience. There simply wasn't anything to learn.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

...so that the summer break between year 1,2 can be free for studying, (I think most study for boards, some do clinical).

Would it be possible to do COT in June or even May? That would allow me to get COT out of the way and also have time to pre-study for year 1.

Nobody studies for boards between M1 and M2 years. Most work/shadow, do research, or just hang out. Nobody pre-studies for M1 year. Definitely do COT in May if possible when the Montgomery climate is more hospitable than June/July.

 

[adamg]

So is COT available in may? Its in Alabama?

Is there only one COT or does each branch have their own version?

I have heard it called ODS amoung other things.

Or am I mistaken and ODS is different than COT?

 

[spicedmanna]

So is COT available in may? Its in Alabama?

According to the AFIT website, for 2008, these following COT dates were reserved for HPSP medical and dental (4-yr) students:

Class 08-04: 20080528 to 20080627
Class 08-05: 20080701 to 20080801

I don't know what the schedule is like for next year.

Is there only one COT or does each branch have their own version?

Each branch has their own version. The Army has OBLC, the Navy has ODS (OIS), and the Air Force has COT.

I have heard it called ODS amoung other things.

Or am I mistaken and ODS is different than COT?

ODS is for the Navy; COT is for the USAF.

 

[spicedmanna]

COT = Air Force (Missouri, I believe)

COT takes place at Maxwell Air Force Base, in Montgomery, Alabama.

 

[spicedmanna]

Did that change in the last 5 years? Coulda sworn my Air Force classmates went off to Missouri . . .

Just curious.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I live in Missouri and the only AFB we have is Whiteman. The website that deals with COT is AFOATS:

I don't know if it was different before, but the site suggests that COT is located in Maxwell AFB, located in Montgomery, Alabama.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Did that change in the last 5 years? Coulda sworn my Air Force classmates went off to Missouri . . .

Just curious.

It's been Montgomery for at least the last 4 years, not sure beyond that.

 

[sethco]

Did that change in the last 5 years? Coulda sworn my Air Force classmates went off to Missouri . . .

Just curious.

I was at Maxwell-Gunter Annex back in July 2001 when I went through COT