Active Military MD and Happy?

[jfitzpat]

First of all: I had spoken to 4 short-timers (in specialties that were nothing related to my mother's [neurology, opthamology, radiology and general surgery]) all who were getting out 4-5 years after residency. They all didn't regret their decision and had NO idea who I was (I look nothing like my mom and we have a different last name). But of course they were all women and had family reasons for getting out; so perhaps their responses were biased, but I wanted to know how young women feel because I am a woman who wants a family. Oh and before you try and think that my parents are divorced they aren't. They have been happily married for 30 years and have had different last names their whole professional careers because they are both doctors; not that it is any of your business.

Second of all: we all know how some people here feel, but I will not regret my decision whether it turns out worse than I thought or not. I will also not have you cheapen my decision by your bitterness, I made a well informed decision and am prepared for the consequences, positive or negative.


All I wanted to do was give my side of the story and I have; so I will not continue in this banter. Bye.

Even if they didn't know who you were, there is little chance you got an honest opinion. I talked with several people about life after HPSP by calling up bases and such, and they all purported to have good opinions of it. My buddy in JAG hooked me up with some others (friends of his) and they painted a totally different picture.

And when you think about, this makes sense. Even if a random doctor doesn't know that your dad is an 0-6, why should should he/she risk getting in trouble just to give some stranger his/her opinion about milmed. You're more likely to get honest opinions on an anonymous site like this one (although skewed a little because angry people are more likely to post).

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[g293]

First of all: I had spoken to 4 short-timers (in specialties that were nothing related to my mother's [neurology, opthamology, radiology and general surgery]) all who were getting out 4-5 years after residency. They all didn't regret their decision and had NO idea who I was (I look nothing like my mom and we have a different last name). But of course they were all women and had family reasons for getting out; so perhaps their responses were biased, but I wanted to know how young women feel because I am a woman who wants a family. Oh and before you try and think that my parents are divorced they aren't. They have been happily married for 30 years and have had different last names their whole professional careers because they are both doctors; not that it is any of your business.

Second of all: we all know how some people here feel, but I will not regret my decision whether it turns out worse than I thought or not. I will also not have you cheapen my decision by your bitterness, I made a well informed decision and am prepared for the consequences, positive or negative.


All I wanted to do was give my side of the story and I have; so I will not continue in this banter. Bye.

I'm glad you read the forums and that you took the time to talk to some physicians in different specialties-sounds like you have more information than most of us had when we joined.

I like your attitude and the fact that you are prepared no matter what your experience turns out to be like.

Good luck with your career!!

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Relax, Sarah... nobody's personally attacking you. You can't blame the posters here for the fact that you didn't pony up all the pertinent information in your first post, and only changed/clarified your story when challenged. You stated that you "went to Walter Reed and started talking to my mom's officemate (did she know who you were? I'll bet she did...) then she directed me on to another person and so on.... and only later did you change your story to:

had NO idea who I was (I look nothing like my mom and we have a different last name). But of course they were all women and had family reasons for getting out; so perhaps their responses were biased, but I wanted to know how young women feel because I am a woman who wants a family. Oh and before you try and think that my parents are divorced they aren't. They have been happily married for 30 years and have had different last names their whole professional careers because they are both doctors; not that it is any of your business.

Much more complete explanation... but what's with that last "none of your business" comment, not to mention your overall "Don't you dare patronize me!!" tone? Don't you think you're protesting a bit too much for somebody who's 100% A-OK with their decision, and the background legwork they did to reach that decision?

We're simply pointing out the perils of attempting to get honest feedback/information in a system rife with politics and political payback. If you don't realize how common that phenomenon is in the military yet, you'd be well-advised to learn it early. I'm serious... you're welcome.

we all know how some people here feel, but I will not regret my decision whether it turns out worse than I thought or not.

It's a bit unrealistic to expect to go through life with no regrets. Without examining your past actions with a critical eye, you may miss important lessons for your future. No sense in making the same mistakes twice... but do what you will.

I will also not have you cheapen my decision by your bitterness

We're not cheapening anything... so I can't say I understand your indignation. The value you place on your decisions is entirely your own.

 

[delicatefade]

Wait a minute. Person after person comes on this site for opinions and almost every time he/she is told to go find a current active duty doc who is just a few years out of residency to get a good assessment of military medicine.

Now we're being told that even then we won't get a straight answer???

Give me a break.

I think there is a lot of truth on this website and that it's good to hear from those who have had a difficult time in military medicine, but this kind of attitude tells people that this forum is the ONLY place you'll hear an unbiased opinion of milmed.

 

[BomberDoc]

I will not regret my decision whether it turns out worse than I thought or not.

Give my regards to your recruiter. He is one slick SOB. If he's got oceanfront property in Arizona for sale, buy all you can afford.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Wait a minute. Person after person comes on this site for opinions and almost every time he/she is told to go find a current active duty doc who is just a few years out of residency to get a good assessment of military medicine.

Now we're being told that even then we won't get a straight answer???

I think there is a lot of truth on this website and that it's good to hear from those who have had a difficult time in military medicine, but this kind of attitude tells people that this forum is the ONLY place you'll hear an unbiased opinion of milmed.

One should always question whether they're getting a straight answer. I exhort everyone on this board to go do as much research as they can, consider the source, and critically analyze all of it. One should be aware that AD physicians may be a bit circumspect in relating their experiences, and I've pointed out several reasons why this is so.

I don't think it's wrong to highlight the pressures (and potential retribution) faced by any AD physician who is a little too open with his opinions. It's the reality of being in an organization that can prosecute you for anything they consider "conduct unbecoming an officer." For all the clinic FP doc knows, that young lady whose ear he's filling is going to take everything home to her O-6 father, who will start calling friends to demand answers. I've seen way too many things come back to haunt people, because something got mentioned to the wrong person.

Think it can't happen? It has happened to friends of mine. One was a little too open with his opinions in an email exchange, and it ended up getting back to his commander. He got pulled aside at the next Commanders' Call and aggressively questioned about what he'd written.

AD docs need to be very careful with their opinions, whether it's politics, religion, or the state of milmed. The military tolerates dissent poorly, if at all... and unless you're in an environment like War College, where nonattribution is their official academic policy, anything you say can come back on you.

The relative anonymity of forums like this virtually guarantee a more-open exchange of ideas (Homunculus has probably given all of our names to the DoD ).

Anonymity is a double-edged sword, since our credentials are unproven, our identities are obfuscated, and we could be janitors for all these studs know. The only cred we have is the intellectual capital we build up over time, by giving good, timely, and unfiltered advice to medical students and residents. Once they do their own research and find out that we're NOT lying to them, they will give weight to our words... not before.

I'd expect no less.

Go forth and verify.

 

[Felzor]

As an "unbiased" poster here who is not in milimed nor seriously considering it at the moment, you have to understand where Sarah is coming from. She did all the research to the best of her ability and you have to respect the conclusion she came to. You do see the Catch-22 here, right? She did the research and you STILL say she must be misinformed. Is it possible for anybody to be right about the advice they heard unless it's "GET OUT NOW!"?

 

[BomberDoc]

You do see the Catch-22 here, right? She did the research and you STILL say she must be misinformed. Is it possible for anybody to be right about the advice they heard unless it's "GET OUT NOW!"?

Yossarian is a friend of mine. If you've read Heller's book, you'll understand the paradox that is logical thinking within the framework of the military and especially the military actively engaged in a war. The problem is that Yossarian is a bombardier and not a military doc. He had it easy.

Seriously, though, everybody's experience is going to be different. I know docs who had great first assignments and stayed on just to get a raw deal the next time around. I also know another doc who left active duty, didn't like the outside world, and came back. A very good friend of mine who just PCSd away from this hellhole wants to be the guy who sticks it out to become a commander and change from the inside. I respect him a great deal and would love to work for him as a junior guy, but I can't understand how he could tolerate it. All I can accurately reflect to you is my experience. As Ex-44E3A stated so well, we have to earn our cred here on the forums. If you think me untrustworthy, ignore everything I have to say. It matters not to me. I don't hate the military. I am a huge supporter of the military DESPITE a lot of the things it does. I do, however, hate the way medicine in the military is run. I already know that I'm going to look fondly back on these years because we tend to remember the good things and forget the bad. I've met an enormous number of fantastic people and done a lot of really cool things. My positive memories of being a bomber crewdog, deploying to some interesting places, and doing some wild s#it will bore the poor sap on the barstool next to me for countless years to come. Somewhere I'll still have that family picture from the guy who's life I saved when we were 6 hours from the nearest medical facility. Hopefully with time the memories of PGUI, AHLTA, MEPRS, medgroup politics, nurses with giant chips on their shoulders as commanders, incompetent leadership, chem warfare exercises, phony inspections, useless computer based training, being < 50% manned for 4 fcuking years, and the sense of entitlement that only the military can breed into ultra-healthy 18 year old whiners will fade.

That I'll remember mostly good stuff doesn't change the fact that there was a LOT more bad stuff I had to endure. I feel like I was lied to and cheated out of 4 prime years of my life. I wanted to do a military residency. I wanted to stay in. I was told over and over from every available source (I didn't have this forum to get the truth) that I would be able to do this. Interrupted training and GMO hell is the norm. They don't give a damn about you. You are just a number filling a box. Nothing more. I once met a guy who was a flight doc for 8 years before finally getting a derm residency in the AF. This poor guy really put all his eggs in one basket and paid dearly for it. This is why it became my personal mission to discourage people from joining milmed as much as possible. All the military has to do is treat its doctors a little better and offer some transparency as to what they're really getting into and people will join and stay in droves... ok maybe not, but retention might climb above single digit percentage. I was naive once and people that have a rosy outlook on milmed strike me as particularly naive. I wish I had someone to slap some sense into me so many years ago. Alas, I made my mistake and have to live with it. So now my mistake is an example for those on the fence of what not to do. If you're hell bent on joining, go for it! If the knowledge and wisdom on these forums can't persuade you otherwise, your experiences in the military will be a cruel teacher. Go forth and verify, indeed.

 

[megadon]

There is nothing that BomberDoc says that is untrue, unfortunately. The military is one huge beaucracy. Recruiters/detailers never disclose the full picture. If you understand that, military ain't so bad. But you have to fundamentally understand that. I will say this, the good memories tend to outweight the bad. I was a submarine officer for seven years, as a civilivian I started to forget all the crap the made me want to quite. I remembered all the good times, the deployment junk, etc. Then I went to ride the Texas for sea-trials, and I was hit face first with all the crap that made me want to leave. I in no way regret my decision to leave, or my decision years ago to go to submarines. It made me capable of putting up with the lack of access to any military support during med school, and the crap I'm going to have to face.

As far as work enviroment, it doesn't matter whether you are civlian or military (and I have watched this with my wife), it matters who you work for. They are crappy bosses everywhere, the ones who think that you are most productive at 1600 on a Friday afternoon to the ones who realize that moral is a huge part of keeping people. This has not sunk in on the East coast quite yet.


The military is completely about luck, when does a residency/fellowship open with regards to my orders? What are the needs or the service? It's a tough road to hoe, and patience is the mantra.

 

[NavyFP]

I think the last two post really sum up the situation well. There is a balance between good and bad (and it can be lopsided either way). One of the largest gripes I see on this forum is unrealized expectations. There are many reasons for this. I feel recruiters play a significant role in creating these expectations, but I do not believe it is completely out of malice. HPSP/GME/GMO and beyond is incredibly complex. Most recruiters understand the very basics, but not the subtleties that are inherent in the processes. Training plans change from year to year, so what may be true today may not be true tomorrow. Getting selected for training is almost as much about luck as it is about skill. If you wanted a highly competitive residency, had fabulous grades and board scores, but happened to apply when other stellar people applied you could end up number four with three spots available one year and then find there are no spots the next year. That does suck, but it is the system. Doctors tend to be very type A and have rigid expectations, goals and timelines. That does not always work in the military.

Most of us have had good bosses and bad bosses. You get a bad one and many of the annoyances of the system magnify. You get a good one and life can be pretty good. I have worked for physicians, dentists, nurses and health care administrators. All were generally good (yes I am lucky) and the couple of less good either left me alone or I was able persuade them to my point of view. As with any large organization there is politics. You need to learn to work within that system. If you are dealt lemons, make lemonade.

Maintaining skills can be a problem in many assignments. As an FP, I have had one assignment to an MTF where OB was expected. The rest, it was not. I worked very hard to affiliate with other hospitals in the area to allow me to continue to provide OB care. I still deliver 1-2 babies per month to keep up those skills. Why? Because it is important to me, and the next assignment could require it. I see many providers accept the current scope of practice and not make that extra effort to keep up skills. As some mention, they enhance their practice by moonlighting. Not a bad method and it adds addition money to the pot. I personally feel that if a procedural specialist does not have the ability to perform within that scope, the MTF should have an MOU for him or her to do it at a local civilian institution. It is as much the responsibility of the command as the member to accomplish this. When I have had GMOs working for me, I would allow them to take half a day per week to go work in the specialty they hoped to train. This gave them visibility within that community and kept them from getting “stale.”

The military has its challenges, but I am not bereft of hope. Working within the system we can and should make a positive difference. It is hard work and occasionally infuriating, but I love the Navy and what kind of Naval Officer would I be if I did not try.

In the immortal words of Dennis Miller: “That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.”

 

[chrisjohn]

Of course, I've met dozens of milmed M.D.s that were happy in the service....
then I met their wives and the posse of dirty faced kids trailing behind.

the wife often weighed in at 200 lbs and the kids were already smoking pot (those great dod schools !) by age 14.

For these poor bastards, deployment is a solution, not a nightmare.

Ah, to be on the other side of the world, away from the maddening crowd, with a tent full of willing and supple 18 y/o female medics working on their borderline personalities, willing to do things in a portajohn their wives would otherwise be calling Oprah to complain about.

Ahh yes, brings back the glory days, but alas I was only a SPEC4 and not the glorious medical student I am now.

 

[chrisjohn]

Two true ways to achieve freedom in this life: money and death.

After completing medical school why would one want to give up your hard won freedom?

Catch-22 is a seminal book because it was and is true. Check it out, things really are that bad. The military can force you into almost anything, read that contract!

All the current AD physicians I know are under stop loss! They can't get out!

If you're bright but intellectually uncurious, like spouting the party line, don't mind your family life in the toilet, enjoy taking advantage of 18 year olds because of what's on your collar and not in your pants, having little to no control over where you live, not being able to choose your specialty, like vicious political and personal infighting et al. then military medicine is for you.

One last vignette, while TDY in the KSA many moons ago I had an Army FP try to drug me for sex. Sweet. I really want to be his professional contemporary. (Yes, I know not all Army medical officers are sexual predators yadaa yadaa&#8230

 

[Gastrapathy]

All the current AD physicians I know are under stop loss! They can’t get out!
…)

Really? I'm not aware of anyone under a stop loss at the moment.

 

[NavyFP]

Really? I'm not aware of anyone under a stop loss at the moment.

I have not heard of any stop loss for docs.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I have not heard of any stop loss for docs.

Nor have I. If this is accurate, I'd appreciate a reference. If it's not, don't spout nonsense.

 

[chrisjohn]

Surely you understand that I am not about to post names, ranks and SSNs, and perhaps these guys are BS'ing me, but I don't think so.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

No names, ranks, or SSNs required... simply some confirmation that stop-loss is in place on current Active Duty physicians. Stop-loss orders are not secret, and they tend to generate publicity whenever they're handed down.

Last I heard, physicians at the end of the ADSC were being allowed to separate. If that's not the case, I think this forum would like to know (what's more, I'd expect this forum to be one of the first places to know).

We haven't heard any rumblings about it from the AD guys who post here.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I know FPs, pediatricians, internists, and emergency docs getting out this summer who haven't been stop-lossed.

 

[sethco]

Surely you understand that I am not about to post names, ranks and SSNs, and perhaps these guys are BS'ing me, but I don't think so.

It is very wrong to make these kind of statements without providing any other info. You are not even telling what specialty are under stop-loss.

Nobody should believe you until you can back up this claim in some way.

As an aside...If people still want to do military medicine, despite all of the problems that are discussed on this site and all the advice, so be it. After all, the more people that sign up, the less likely I am to be either prevented from leaving AD secondary to a stop loss or be called back during civilian residency secondary to IRR.

BTW...did you just make up that story or are you exagerating about the Army FP? If not, I sure hope you reported them and there was an investigation. Care to discuss the incident? I am sure a lot of people are curious

 

[alpha62]

Ahh yes, brings back the glory days, but alas I was only a SPEC4 and not the glorious medical student I am now.

By now, it must be obvious, you had it much better as an E-4.

 

[BomberDoc]

I know FPs, pediatricians, internists, and emergency docs getting out this summer who haven't been stop-lossed.

I also know many many docs who are getting out this summer and nobody is under stop-loss. I think you are mistaken, chrisjohn. The evil that is management won't let them take their terminal leave, but they are getting out.

 

[NavyFP]

Surely you understand that I am not about to post names, ranks and SSNs, and perhaps these guys are BS'ing me, but I don't think so.

They are BSing you.