Adcoms calling recommenders?

[Senator]

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Do any of you know of admissions committees that sometimes call a recommender. I got to see the LOR from a former supervisor - it was good but encouraged phone contact. Have any of you heard of admissions officers ever calling recommendors?

 

[stinkycheese]

One of the physicians I work with said that if any of my writers put "feel free to call me blah blah blah" at the end of the recommendation, then I should read it very closely to ensure that there are no hidden red flags embedded carefully in the text before sending the letters off. He said this is a way for recommenders to indicate "issues" to people without getting sued for libel. Heh. I don't know if is true or not, but it seems an Adcom would only call if there was a concern about the content or message.

 

[exmike]

I had a school call one of my recommenders, an ophthomalogist I worked for. He called up my dad and told him. The school was just verifying that the letter was genuine b/c apparently he wrote really good stuff and they wanted to check!

 

[Code Brown]

This is a definate yes, but not with everyone. One of the professors who is writing my LOR's said that she gets calls all the time from adcoms in regards to applicants.

 

[CarleneM]

One of the physicians I work with said that if any of my writers put "feel free to call me blah blah blah" at the end of the recommendation, then I should read it very closely to ensure that there are no hidden red flags embedded carefully in the text before sending the letters off. He said this is a way for recommenders to indicate "issues" to people without getting sued for libel. Heh. I don't know if is true or not, but it seems an Adcom would only call if there was a concern about the content or message.

really? My PI has us ghost-write our LOR and then he spruces them up a bit; he says this is common in the medical world and it saves time/ensures the letter will be wonderful. The end of letters always end with the requisite "feel free to call me" bit but it is him just being polite and he would say that in any type of correspondence, not jut an LOR. He writes glowing letters for people and this is not his way of indicating issues, just following etiquette. All our recruitment materials for studies end with the "feel free to call me" bit and I think this is just an extension of that.

 

[acl3623]

if it were the case that they do contact, why dont they ask for concact info on AMCAS? it would make it easier on them in case they did want to...

 

[Code Brown]

if it were the case that they do contact, why dont they ask for concact info on AMCAS? it would make it easier on them in case they did want to...

They usually don't call the people on your experiences. However, they can and often contact the letter writers, who always put down their contact information.

 

[monopolova]

I'm just amazed everyone here knows so much about their recommendations. So much for the "check here to waive the opportunity to see your recommendation" box. 😕

 

[IndyZX]

its usually your lack of contact with the recommender that will lead to you not seeing your letter. for example, other than one guy, i asked for my letter from my profs and then never saw them in person again, instead exchanging emails.

im sure that if i saw them on a regular basis, theyd show me the letter.

 

[Code Brown]

I'm just amazed everyone here knows so much about their recommendations. So much for the "check here to waive the opportunity to see your recommendation" box. 😕

The goal is to get letter writers who know you well to write your letters. If you know them well enough to call them your friends, they will be glad to show you what they have written. Some of them will even ask you to edit them to make sure they are saying the right things on your behalf (or so I've heard from some people 😉 ).

 

[Bones2008]

The goal is to get letter writers who know you well to write your letters. If you know them well enough to call them your friends, they will be glad to show you what they have written. Some of them will even ask you to edit them to make sure they are saying the right things on your behalf (or so I've heard from some people 😉 ).

????? Maybe for you, but I gotta believe the vast majority of people never see their letters, regardless of how well they know their writers. Between myself and every other applicant I know personally, I've never heard of anyone even seeing, let alone "editing" (I think this is terrible, but that's another story), a confidential letter of recommendation.

 

[CarleneM]

no, ghost-writing letters is really common in the medical world, not just for applying to medical school. I know attendings that ghost-write their LOR's for various grants they are applying to and whatnot. I personally would prefer not writing my own because I feel like I will be more tempted to just do a laundry-list of my accomplishments rather than talk about how compassionate/passionate I am, etc. My PI insists that it be done this way however and I don't want to make a big stink about it since I feel like its a pain but its not unethical.

when we sign the waiver, waiving our right to see the letter, we aren't saying we won't look at the letter. we are saying we don't have to.

 

[brs23]

to me, being asked to write your own letter can also be a sign of your writer not knowing you well enough. Being asked to look over a letter, however, could be a good sign too...personally, I'd rather not see my letters, because I feel that its more ethical...although maybe ethics aren't realistic!

 

[CarleneM]

to me, being asked to write your own letter can also be a sign of your writer not knowing you well enough. Being asked to look over a letter, however, could be a good sign too...personally, I'd rather not see my letters, because I feel that its more ethical...although maybe ethics aren't realistic!

yeah i suppose although in my case, my PI knows me very very well. It is a small lab with only two RA's and its just how he does LOR's for everyone, from the pre-med to the post-doc. He says "no one knows your work as well as you do." while i agree with that to a certain extent, I do think it is more difficult to be objective about one's personal traits if you have to write it yourself. I really don't think its unethical though, I mean the PI has to read it over and approve it before it is sent out. In that sense, it is the same as an administrative assistant writing a letter for something and having the boss sign it.

 

[DD214_DOC]

My best, and currently only, LOR was written by a guy I know pretty well. I waived my right, but he let me see it anyways.

I did suggest, however, to a professor who has taken 3 months now to write a letter than, if he wanted, I would write up one and he could edit or add/subtract from it. This may come back to haunt me, but after 3 months it's not like it would matter. I have a feeling I'm going to be finding another writer anyways.

 

[brs23]

Yeah...totally I don't really think its unethical, and it really isn't any different than a person asking you to give them an outline of what you want them to talk about...I guess I just wish people had the time to write things on their own-like its more heartfelt or something.

by the way...I've definitely seen that picture of the bunny on friendster--are you on friendster?

 

[Code Brown]

????? Maybe for you, but I gotta believe the vast majority of people never see their letters, regardless of how well they know their writers. Between myself and every other applicant I know personally, I've never heard of anyone even seeing, let alone "editing" (I think this is terrible, but that's another story), a confidential letter of recommendation.

You are right about the fact that most people don't see their letters. Which is sad I think. Believe me, some things are definitely unethical, I just don't believe that looking at your letters of rec is one of those "unethical" things. I mean, you looked at your MCAT score didn't you? What you received probably determined where you were going to apply, and if you did poorly, you took the test again. MCATs judge your performance in the academic field, so why can't you see how you are judged by people in the character/communication/motivation/etc field. If others see you as having a certain personality type or certain mottivation level, maybe you should apply to certain schools that would suit you better.

Also, what if the letter writer writes lousy letters, which is something that is completely out of your control, but something that could make a big difference on your app? Why make it more difficult on yourself. I mean, med schools apparently want these letters for a reason don't they? It probably won't keep you out of med school, but it may keep you from going to your top choice.

The only reason they make you sign the consent is so that a prof doesn't feel presurred into writing a great letter for someone they don't really want to write the letter for. Every one of my letter writers offered to write my letters even before I asked for them, so there was no pressure.

As for the editing or commentary that some ask for, believe it or not, very few non-science profs write letters for med school applicants. They often just want to make sure that they don't mess it up for you and are being cautious. You, as the applicant, probably know a lot more about the school you are applying to, and they think it would be in your best interest if you were to guide them along.

As always, babbling along...blah blah blah...

 

[LP1CW]

Two of my recommenders were contacted twice after I had completed interviews. It was told that it was just for follow up information and to clarify a few points. They must have said good things because I got into both schools that contacted them. Also, one of my post secondary, volunteer sites was contacted and I didn't even have contact inforation listed. So, they had to go out of their way to find it. I guess it's not that hard with the internet to find out who to call and the right number.

 

[SpiritiualDuck]

Happened to me too. My thesis advisor was called after one of my interviews. And one of places of volunteer was contacted.

 

[g3pro]

How is reading your own letter of recommendation unethical??? 😕


I want to read my letter from the physician I shadowed for 6 weeks so that I know how I personally came off and how I can improve, etc.


So tell me why it's unethical.

 

[dulcinea]

wow, i'm so glad that someone brought this up. the doctor who is writing my LOR wants me to write it and then he'll look at it. i don't even know how to write a LOR!!! i always waive my right to see them. i had never heard of people doing this but i guess i'll do it. i just don't feel exactly right about it . . .

 

[monopolova]

How is reading your own letter of recommendation unethical??? 😕


I want to read my letter from the physician I shadowed for 6 weeks so that I know how I personally came off and how I can improve, etc.


So tell me why it's unethical.

It's absolutely unethical only if you check the box that says "I waive my right to see the letters." To then go ahead behind your university's office and ask the recommender to see the letters is breaking your original agreement. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE AGREEMENT! Why do you think schools would prefer you check that box? So you don't see your recommendations!! So YOU can't pick and choose which recos you will send to what school. This is the one part of the process that you're suppossed to have NO part in except for choosing the original recommenders and giving them suggestions about what to write. If you're telling them what to write, I think that's a bunch of b.s., too. That's dishonest and frankly, I'm disapointed in anyone who would stoop that low to do it.

 

[monopolova]

wow, i'm so glad that someone brought this up. the doctor who is writing my LOR wants me to write it and then he'll look at it. i don't even know how to write a LOR!!! i always waive my right to see them. i had never heard of people doing this but i guess i'll do it. i just don't feel exactly right about it . . .

Yeah, if you do this, it's making a freaking mockery of the system and it's unfair to us who follow the rules. I'm not a fool for not looking at my recos or not writing them for someone else. I'm confident enough with myself and my recommenders not to look at them, and I'm frankly honest enough not to look at or write them. After all, what you two are doing is fraud plain and simple.

I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I AM READING. I totally lost respect for you guys. Sorry. 👎

 

[g3pro]

It's absolutely unethical only if you check the box that says "I waive my right to see the letters." To then go ahead behind your university's office and ask the recommender to see the letters is breaking your original agreement. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE AGREEMENT! Why do you think schools would prefer you check that box? So you don't see your recommendations!! So YOU can't pick and choose which recos you will send to what school. This is the one part of the process that you're suppossed to have NO part in except for choosing the original recommenders and giving them suggestions about what to write. If you're telling them what to write, I think that's a bunch of b.s., too. That's dishonest and frankly, I'm disapointed in anyone who would stoop that low to do it.

Ah, ok. I thought the other people were talking about not waiving their rights and saying reading it when you are legal to do so is unethical. OK.

Yeah, I'm not waiving my rights only for the physician letter. It's going to be a pretty big part of my personal statement, and so I don't want any conflicting ideas. 🙂

 

[monopolova]

when we sign the waiver, waiving our right to see the letter, we aren't saying we won't look at the letter. we are saying we don't have to.

That makes no sense. That is a bunch of b.s. and you know it. 👎 😡

 

[CarleneM]

by the way...I've definitely seen that picture of the bunny on friendster--are you on friendster?

yes i am on friendster, however, i have not put the picture of the bunny on friendster. that is actually a picture of oolong, a japanese rabbit whose owner took a ton of pictures of the rabbit putting odd objects such as pancakes on his head. i just love the picture because i love bunnies and used to be in a band called the pancakes....

 

[CarleneM]

It's absolutely unethical only if you check the box that says "I waive my right to see the letters." To then go ahead behind your university's office and ask the recommender to see the letters is breaking your original agreement. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE AGREEMENT! Why do you think schools would prefer you check that box? So you don't see your recommendations!! So YOU can't pick and choose which recos you will send to what school. This is the one part of the process that you're suppossed to have NO part in except for choosing the original recommenders and giving them suggestions about what to write. If you're telling them what to write, I think that's a bunch of b.s., too. That's dishonest and frankly, I'm disapointed in anyone who would stoop that low to do it.

i asked my pre-med committee at my school about this issue because I was uncomfortable and confused about it at first. They said it was absolutely fine to see your letter and edit it even if you check the box, that the waiver's purpose is to prevent students from demanding to see it and getting into uncomfortable situations with letter writers. there is a difference between a right and a privilege and some people are privileged to see it (although in all honesty, i'd prefer not having to ghost-write it since I feel weird bragging about myself). i would have insisted my PI write it himself if my pre-med committee said it was breaking any rules for me to see it. i don't want to get into a big arguement about this but I just wanted to clarify that I do not have any evidence that this practice is shady even though it may seem so initially.

 

[monopolova]

i asked my pre-med committee at my school about this issue because I was uncomfortable and confused about it at first. They said it was absolutely fine to see your letter and edit it even if you check the box, that the waiver's purpose is to prevent students from demanding to see it and getting into uncomfortable situations with letter writers. there is a difference between a right and a privilege and some people are privileged to see it (although in all honesty, i'd prefer not having to ghost-write it since I feel weird bragging about myself). i would have insisted my PI write it himself if my pre-med committee said it was breaking any rules for me to see it. i don't want to get into a big arguement about this but I just wanted to clarify that I do not have any evidence that this practice is shady even though it may seem so initially.

Sorry, but I got to pull out the 'ol buzzer on you. Whoever told you that should be ashamed of themselves. The purpose is to keep you from looking at your recos -- PERIOD. They don't want you to pick and choose what you send based on whether you think, "oh, wait, that's not glowing enough". That's the point. Medical schools want to know if you suck. You're not going to tell them. They need a third party. I mean, you're lucky that you get to ask someone to write it, so you've got a good chance you're going to be portrayed wonderfully, but the whole point is to get a professional's opinion about you. They need to be able to be honest about your reco so that school's can get a picture of who you really are. Otherwise, what's the point? Just to see if you can ask someone for a recommendation? It makes no sense if you're going to skew the process in your favor -- that's not why it's there though you all seem to think otherwise!

 

[liverotcod]

The language on the waiver form in use by my school is as follows:
"Student?s Waiver:
I ____ waive/ ____ do not waive any right of access that I may have, as provided by law, to this letter of recommendation."

By signing the waiver, you abdicate your rights under the Family Rights and Privacy Act of 1974.

3 of my 6 letter writers (all non-academic, interestingly) simply copied me on the letters, despite my signing the waiver. I did/do not feel any ethical problem with reading what they sent me. It's not as if I asked for the copies!

 

[monopolova]

The language on the waiver form in use by my school is as follows:
"Student?s Waiver:
I ____ waive/ ____ do not waive any right of access that I may have, as provided by law, to this letter of recommendation."

By signing the waiver, you abdicate your rights under the Family Rights and Privacy Act of 1974.

3 of my 6 letter writers (all non-academic, interestingly) simply copied me on the letters, despite my signing the waiver. I did/do not feel any ethical problem with reading what they sent me. It's not as if I asked for the copies!

Well how convenient that you used their ignorance to your advantage. 👎

I apologize for coming across as Mr. Negativity today, but I think you all, for the simple understandable reason of wanting to have great applications, are stretching (to put it kindly) the rules and convincing yourselves that, "Oh, no, I didn't do anything wrong."

 

[MoosePilot]

This is a funny argument 🙂

What if you don't fill out whatever waiver your schools have?

What if your recommender consults you while writing the letter or has you write a draft to be sure it meshes with your PS?

Come on, this is silly. Lots of people go a lot further than just reading their own letters.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Personally, I have to say that I am having a problem with the whole "making sure it meshes with your PS argument". If your PS is truthful, and the letter is truthful, how could they possibly conflict? I have to agree with some of the previous posters in saying that the letters are the adcoms chance to have a 3rd party representation of you. To try and engineer your letters and/or PS so they make you sound the way you think is best is at worst unethical and at best dishonest.

 

[docmemi]

if it were the case that they do contact, why dont they ask for concact info on AMCAS? it would make it easier on them in case they did want to...

because its usually the really important experiences they care about and in all likelihood youll have an lor for that experience.

 

[MoosePilot]

Personally, I have to say that I am having a problem with the whole "making sure it meshes with your PS argument". If your PS is truthful, and the letter is truthful, how could they possibly conflict? I have to agree with some of the previous posters in saying that the letters are the adcoms chance to have a 3rd party representation of you. To try and engineer your letters and/or PS so they make you sound the way you think is best is at worst unethical and at best dishonest.

If your recommender is willing to write the best letter possible, you should tell them, "No, I'm sure I have bad points, please include those too."?

If a doctor wants to write you a strong recommendation letter and they want to emphasize the same strengths that you emphasized in your PS, that's ok. If they're making up those virtues just like you made them up, that's what would be wrong.

 

[10minutes]

In adcom's point of view, a good letter is a confidential letter. They want honest opinions about you.

I don't know how many people use interpolio account, but it works rather simple. If you want it confidential, you give the recommenders a signed paper and a postage paid envelope with the interpolio company address written down. Then the company takes care of everything for you. This is what I did.

 

[Code Brown]

It's very unlikely that anybody is going to change anybody elses mind today.
Why doesn't someone put up a poll to see what everyone thinks? I would do it, but I don't know how, and am too lazy to learn. That way, one side of the argument can officially make the other side look either too ethical or too unethical.

 

[soreed]

hmm, they contact... what if my letters are two years old now and the writer only has vague recollections of me?

 

[docmemi]

hmm, they contact... what if my letters are two years old now and the writer only has vague recollections of me?

hmmm. you should contact some schools. i think they want some more recent ones....WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN UP TO IN THE LAST 2 YEARS....thats what is important to them....what you have done recently.

 

[Sunflower189]

I dunno - even the most conservative letter-hiders I've dealt with want you to provide a resume and outline before they'll write a rec.

If I were a professor, that's how I would want to do it. After dealing with hundreds of students, I'd likely have a general impression of most, but wouldn't necessarily remember the insightful paper / extra effort / extenuating circumstance / whatever detail that should be in a good rec unless they reminded me. And that would be more my fault than theirs.

Of course, if a mediocre student handed me a draft that said "XXX is the most exemplary human being I have ever seen"...no, won't fly. And I'd be annoyed, so the rec might well end up weaker than it would have been.

(At the other extreme, I once had someone decide that the rec I ghostwrote for her wasn't strong enough, so she had me sit in her office and rewrite it until I showed acceptable self-esteem. 😀 )

 

[Rugger81]

Yeah, if you do this, it's making a freaking mockery of the system and it's unfair to us who follow the rules. After all, what you two are doing is fraud plain and simple.

I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I AM READING. I totally lost respect for you guys. Sorry. 👎

If you're telling them what to write, I think that's a bunch of b.s., too. That's dishonest and frankly, I'm disapointed in anyone who would stoop that low to do it.

That makes no sense. That is a bunch of b.s. and you know it.

Well how convenient that you used their ignorance to your advantage.

What is your problem? Did you have some traumatic experience with someone reading a letter? Chill out! I doubt a few people reading their letters (ethical or not) is going to jeopardize your chances at getting in somewhere. So get off your soap box.

 

[Rugger81]

Well how convenient that you used their ignorance to your advantage. 👎

I apologize for coming across as Mr. Negativity today, but I think you all, for the simple understandable reason of wanting to have great applications, are stretching (to put it kindly) the rules and convincing yourselves that, "Oh, no, I didn't do anything wrong."

You really gotta lay off. My boss wrote me a letter, and sent a copy to my mailbox at school. I didn't realize he was doing it, and I didn't even know what it was when I opened it. According to you, what should I have done? Ripped it up? Burned it? Run screaming out of the student union and poured bleach into my eyes for reading one of my recs?

 

[Jeff3614]

Why would someone write a bad letter of recommendation? This makes no sense. To me, if you have nothing good to say about a candidate, why waste the student's time or, more importantly, your own time?

In any case, it's not as uncommon as people think to see LORs prior to them being sent out. There's nothing unethical about this - it's not a secret practice and I know many professors who show thier LORs to thier students with no flack from the Univeristy about ethical standards. Typically the writer will go over the letter with the student and explain how and why certain things were written. Most times the LOR is an open ended form-letter anyway.

The only time I can see this situation becoming questionable is when the person writing the LOR asks for the mailing address and nothing else or hands you a sealed envelope with a signature or stamp across the back fold. These actions are fairly universal for, "CONFIDENTIAL", and should be respected.

If people are curious about a confidential LOR, just ask your teacher if you can see or discuss it.

-J

 

[liverotcod]

...If people are curious about a confidential LOR, just ask your teacher if you can see or discuss it.

-J

This was the point I was trying to make earlier. The waiver is a legal document that releases the letter writer, letter forwarding service and ad coms from legal issues surrounding the Family Rights and Privacy Act. Obviously, the writer isn't going to copy me on a letter they don't want me to see. Then too, I wouldn't open anything (not addressed to me) marked confidential, as that would be a violation of trust.

But EVEN THOUGH I have waived my legal right to view my letters as provided by the Act, some of the WRITERS decided that they wanted me to see them. I simply cannot see the ethical problem here. I have additional words concerning Mr. Negativity Monopolova, but am submitting them confidentially to everyone but him.

 

[MoosePilot]

I have additional words concerning Mr. Negativity Monopolova, but am submitting them confidentially to everyone but him.

 

[monopolova]

I hope what Liverotcod has to say is good. 🙄

 

[MoosePilot]

I hope what Moosepilot has to say is good. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Huh? I was just laughing at his joke :laugh:

 

[monopolova]

Huh? I was just laughing at his joke

My bad. Correction made. 👍

You may resume your mono-bashing.

 

[Gleevec]

If you want to read the letter so bad (even if the recommender gave you a copy, you could deny it or throw it away), why not just check "I DONT waive my right to view the recommendation letter"

🙄

 

[LauraMac]

seeing your letter is unethical... having a part in writing it is even worse. i am 100% on monopolova's side for this one.

 

[Gleevec]

seeing your letter is unethical... having a part in writing it is even worse. i am 100% on monopolova's side for this one.

I dont mind the part about writing it as long as the recommender signs off on it after reading, but in any case, you should say you DONT waive your right to see the letter. That is the honest thing to do.