ADCOMS: Is it obvious when someone is falsely using URM to increase chances?

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoveBeingHuman:)
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Conflagration said:
I'd be interested to see what works better, for sure. Let some grad student do that study, though. That'd be a lot of data to sift through.
Click to expand...
I'm not even sure how you would do it. You'd have to send a survey and require a picture back or maybe have an application have two designations next to each other.
 
mydogmolly said:
I've never once heard this before, but I guess that might just be me
Click to expand...

In that case then it's equally likely that it might just be me too lol. I'm basing that question off my best friend who is in the situation I described, and people get confused when he says "Washington" instead of "Thailand".
 
Endoxifen said:
I'm not even sure how you would do it. You'd have to send a survey and require a picture back or maybe have an application have two designations next to each other.
Click to expand...

You could just do an in-person masked sort of experiment. Tell subjects they're coming in for a math test or something and include questions about demographics in the end with different phrasing.
 
Thapricorn123 said:
I understand the convention argument, it can often be confusing to switch conventions in many cases, but I don't see how switching from "African-American" to "Black" can do anything but make things clearer. I can't see any room for confusion there.
Click to expand...
That one might solve it, but then you may be opening up a political can of worms. I'm pretty sure black people like the term "black" better (though that just may be my experience), but even if that's the case, a whole bunch of angry people could come out of the woodwork like they always seem to when anything changes.
 
Thapricorn123 said:
You could just do an in-person masked sort of experiment. Tell subjects they're coming in for a math test or something and include questions about demographics in the end with different phrasing.
Click to expand...
That would definitely work, but it would also inflate the cost and decrease the sample size.
 
Endoxifen said:
That one might solve it, but then you may be opening up a political can of worms. I'm pretty sure black people like the term "black" better (though that just may be my experience), but even if that's the case, a whole bunch of angry people could come out of the woodwork like they always seem to when anything changes.
Click to expand...

Lots of trust funded white people without a cause will show up to protest at your door.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Have you taken the MCAT yet?

I said he’s a good guy who is a hero, ie, puts others before himself all the time. This instance of poor judgment (which he hasn’t actually done yet) is not typical of him, so I am hoping be changes his mind.
Click to expand...
I did... and look, I know what you said. I was just saying that I think he should still be held to the same standard as others, regardless of how good a guy he is elsewhere in his life. That's how I see it, maybe you view it differently.
 
altblue said:
I did... and look, I know what you said. I was just pointing out that I think he should still be held to the same standard as others, regardless of how good a guy he is elsewhere in his life. That's how I see it, maybe you view it differently.
Click to expand...

I don’t think you understand what I said, because the last line of this post implies the exact opposite of what I said.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I don’t think you understand what I said, because the last line of this post implies the exact opposite of what I said.
Click to expand...
Oh okay, so he hasn't done it yet and you'd disapprove if he did? I'm not sure how I had things flipped
 
Thapricorn123 said:
In this case then, why don't colleges just ask exactly what they mean to say? Why the whole "read between the lines" game?

If you want to know whether or not somebody is black, ask them if they're black. I don't see how it's exactly fair to ask if somebody is African-American and then ding them for answering correctly.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Why ask a question where the literal correct answer is considered to be disingenuous because "everyone knows" that the question doesn't actually mean what it says? Just ask the question that you actually want the answer to. Say "black" if that is what you mean.
 
Terry Toma said:
Agreed. Why ask a question where the literal correct answer is considered to be disingenuous because "everyone knows" that the question doesn't actually mean what it says? Just ask the question that you actually want the answer to. Say "black" if that is what you mean.
Click to expand...
"Black, African-American, Afro-Caribbean"
"Arab, North African, West Asian"

Would make things decently clearer, in case there was confusion.....
 
mydogmolly said:
I've never once heard this before, but I guess that might just be me
Click to expand...

Thapricorn123 said:
In that case then it's equally likely that it might just be me too lol. I'm basing that question off my best friend who is in the situation I described, and people get confused when he says "Washington" instead of "Thailand".
Click to expand...

It's happened to me before (and some of my friends). Whenever people ask me where I'm from, I say I'm from [state]. Then, sometimes some people follow up with something like, "no, where are you really from?" That's when I realize they mean where my parents are from, aka my ethnicity. The nuances of language...
 
altblue said:
Oh okay, so he hasn't done it yet and you'd disapprove if he did? I'm not sure how I had things flipped
Click to expand...

Yeah. I warned him not to do it and hope he doesn’t. I feel bad because he got some bad advice that could negatively impact him and he’s otherwise a good dude.
 
Thapricorn123 said:
In this case then, why don't colleges just ask exactly what they mean to say? Why the whole "read between the lines" game?

If you want to know whether or not somebody is black, ask them if they're black. I don't see how it's exactly fair to ask if somebody is African-American and then ding them for answering correctly.
Click to expand...

one assumes that if you're smart enough to apply to medical school, that you're smart enough to understand context.
 
Lannister said:
I could honestly see someone from Egypt listing themselves as African by mistake. I mean, Egypt is technically in Africa, so for someone who isn't educated about what URM really means, it might seem reasonable to say you're African.
Click to expand...
But failure to understand this suggests a profound lack of cultural knowledge lol, which doesn't reflect well on them either
 
altblue said:
But failure to understand this suggests a profound lack of cultural knowledge lol, which doesn't reflect well on them either
Click to expand...

Lol I'd guess that a significant portion of this country could not tell you which continent Egypt is in, let alone know the cultural nuances of Middle Eastern vs. North African. I really don't think that's a "profound lack of cultural knowledge".
 
For what it's worth, Egypt is part of MENA: the Middle East and North Africa. Is Egypt on the continent of Africa? Yes. But, it's pretty common knowledge that it's a more "Middle Eastern" country, and Egyptians themselves (I know because of family) consider themselves culturally Arabic—not African.

Any Egyptian applicant that marks "African" knows what they're doing. Egyptians do not consider themselves African; they consider themselves Arabic, and people of Middle Eastern descent are—qua current census designations—considered Caucasian when applying to medical school.
 
Lannister said:
Lol I'd guess that a significant portion of this country could not tell you which continent Egypt is in, let alone know the cultural nuances of Middle Eastern vs. North African. I really don't think that's a "profound lack of cultural knowledge".
Click to expand...
Lol if people ask if you're Black/African-American you should understand that they aren't asking if you're from an Arabic country. This is some pretty damn basic cultural knowledge, obvious implications, that comes with living in the US for a period of time and most teenagers should be able to understand this.

If you or your family are from an Arabic country that is located in northern Africa, you should especially be able to understand that people in the US aren't referring to you when they say African American. You likely don't look like what most people consider African American, and if you do, your origins thousands of years back are likely not say Egyptian but rather central/southern African or Caribbean and you would know that you look like those who are referred to as African American

I really don't think it's that difficult. Let me know if all that makes sense
 
Last edited:
chappikachu said:
It's happened to me before (and some of my friends). Whenever people ask me where I'm from, I say I'm from [state]. Then, sometimes some people follow up with something like, "no, where are you really from?" That's when I realize they mean where my parents are from, aka my ethnicity. The nuances of language...
Click to expand...

Glad I'm not going crazy then. After discussing with my other friends and with my own experiences, it's a pretty common bit of phrasing.
 
I would argue that it’s probably easier to get away with it then people think. My best friend is half white half Mexican but looks completely white (dirty blond hair, green eyes), and has a totally Anglophone name. Now whose to tell him he isn’t half Mexican? If he showed up to an MMI inteview where often time the questions they ask you about yourself are quite limited and constricted im nature, it would be very unfair for any Adcom member to ding him for not apprearing as ethnic as they would have hoped.

That being said, I absolutely do not condone anyone missrepresenting their race as it is a highly unethical thing to do (duh).

Regarding Egyptians, most of The Egyptians I know, and I know quite a few, List themselves as African-American. And to be fair, not only is Egypt in Africa, but Egyptians have significant amount of sub-Saharan African admixture in their gene pool so they are “African” in many regards. Thus I’m actually not against Egyptians listing themselves African-American since admixture and geographical symantics were purposely not excluded AMCAS’s definition of African American/black. If AMCAS does not want this to continue, they need to create a separate category for Middle Easterners/North Africans.
 
BlueCircle said:
If AMCAS does not want this to continue, they need to create a separate category for Middle Easterners/North Africans.
Click to expand...

They don’t actually, since the racial classifications “white” and “Caucasian” specifically include Arab and Middle Easterners.
 
gyngyn said:
That's also disingenuous.
Click to expand...
Eh. If you are a Boer that has been in South Africa longer then America had existed I dont see why not. IMO African Americans who are direct descendants of slaves or who immigrated during segregation are a much more disadvantaged group then most African immigrants. Though usually a lot of the above can also have many interesting stories and perspectives that would benefit them during interviews and during their work as a physician.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
They don’t actually, since the racial classifications “white” and “Caucasian” specifically include Arab and Middle Easterners.
Click to expand...

Yeah I am aware that they lump Middle Easternerswith European but it’s really not the best classification system
 
sb247 said:
It’s almost like race is poor choice of ways to choose preferential treatment of applicants ( /sarc)
Click to expand...

I kind of agree, but there is legit evidence that minority patients respond better and are more compliant when their doctor is of the same ethnicity. And since those ethnicities are underrepresented, they are given a bonus to recruit them.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I kind of agree, but there is legit evidence that minority patients respond better and are more compliant when their doctor is of the same ethnicity. And since those ethnicities are underrepresented, they are given a bonus to recruit them.
Click to expand...
All that means is patients are racist, which shouldn’t be coddled too

It would inappropriate for a hosptial in vermont to discriminate agaisnt black doctors because “but our patients prefer white people”
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
"I'm Indian but I look Latino and I grew up in a Latino community, and I URM????"
"I'm Egyptian, can I put that I'm African to be URM???"
"I'm a quarter Latino, can I be considered URM??"
Click to expand...

+ Indians that have parents that were born in African countries and just put African-American on Amcas :/

(I know people that have done this).
 
I'm half Asian, but don't really look like it. I look a lot more Mexican/Native American, and a lot of premeds are encouraging me to put latino/native american. I'm not going to do it, because I am what I am. I don't believe that affirmative action will effect me negatively. I don't have many of the stereotypical personality characteristics that many Asians do (shyness, awkwardness, low amount of EC's, academic robot). I'm "white washed", pretty outgoing, I enjoy people, I enjoy public speaking, I like to make lots and lots of friends, and I have plenty of hobbies that I put a lot of effort into.
 
One example I can think of is African Americans versus literal African Americans. I once met someone from Meharry Medical College, who immigrated to the United States from Nigeria. He said that there is a big divide between the African American students versus African immigrants that came to this country only recently (or are 1st generation Americans). They do not really interact or get along with each other. I have a few friends that immigrated from Africa. One Ghanian, one Kenyan, and a few Nigerians. Their cultures couldn't be any different than here in America.

I could technically see African immigrants picking up ECs in the African American community, but then opt to not practice in it as physicians. This was actually what my Ghanian friend intended to do, until he decided to pursue a career outside of medicine.
 
sb247 said:
All that means is patients are racist, which shouldn’t be coddled too

It would inappropriate for a hosptial in vermont to discriminate agaisnt black doctors because “but our patients prefer white people”
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? When you come from a black low SES community and you’re doctor is an upper class white dude, are you going to think he gets you and what your life is like? No. Relating to someone who is like you isn’t racism.

Second, your RAA attempt fails, because the argument is that we need doctors of all backgrounds, not just some.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
What are you talking about? When you come from a black low SES community and you’re doctor is an upper class white dude, are you going to think he gets you and what your life is like? No. Relating to someone who is like you isn’t racism.

Second, your RAA attempt fails, because the argument is that we need doctors of all backgrounds, not just some.
Click to expand...
We don’t actually need doctors of all backgrounds, we just need the best and brightest who are actually capable of being nice humans. It’s absurd to propose that we need to demographic match providers to patients as though people can’t possible just get along with someone different than themself.

Imagine the absurdity of a white old monied patient denying a 1st gen nigerian american doc because the doc doesn’t “get him and what his life is like”.

It’s not “reverse racism”, it’s just plain old racial discrimination either way
 
sb247 said:
We don’t actually need doctors of all backgrounds, we just need the best and brightest who are actually capable of being nice humans. It’s absurd to propose that we need to demographic match providers to patients as though people can’t possible just get along with someone different than themself.

Imagine the absurdity of a white old monied patient denying a 1st gen nigerian american doc because the doc doesn’t “get him and what his life is like”.

It’s not “reverse racism”, it’s just plain old racial discrimination either way
Click to expand...

Not all discrimination is racist. Wanting a doctor who understands your background isn’t racist. When you grow up in a ****ty neighborhood and don’t make enough money to eat healthy, you are probably not going to relate very well with the white doc who grew up with money. If you’re a Mexican immigrant, you are probably going to relate better to a Mexican doctor, whether he’s first generation or not.

It is definitely bias, but that’s not the same as racism. That we say it’s arbitrarily not okay for white people to do that might be racist, but that doesn’t mean we say Mexicans can’t want a Mexican doctor. It’s a separate issue.

And diversity is good. So yes, we actually do want doctors from all backgrounds. Having doctors from all backgrounds and bright doctors are not mutually exclusive.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Not all discrimination is racist. Wanting a doctor who understands your background isn’t racist. When you grow up in a ****ty neighborhood and don’t make enough money to eat healthy, you are probably not going to relate very well with the white doc who grew up with money. If you’re a Mexican immigrant, you are probably going to relate better to a Mexican doctor, whether he’s first generation or not.

It is definitely bias, but that’s not the same as racism. That we say it’s arbitrarily not okay for white people to do that might be racist, but that doesn’t mean we say Mexicans can’t want a Mexican doctor. It’s a separate issue.

And diversity is good. So yes, we actually do want doctors from all backgrounds. Having doctors from all backgrounds and bright doctors are not mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...
Lack of discrimination is good, diversity in an of itself is meaningless
 
sb247 said:
Lack of discrimination is good, diversity in an of itself is meaningless
Click to expand...

Discrimination isn’t necessarily good or bad. You discriminate when you make a judgement on a patient.

Diversity for diversity’s sake is meaningless, but you essentially ignored a huge part of what I said to make that argument. Diversity so that we have doctors bringing varied experiences into medicine so that patients can better relate to their doctors or so they may see something in a patient others don’t is not diversity for diversity’s sake. I’m not sure how you could possibly argue that wanting a more varied pool of doctors is a bad thing.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Discrimination isn’t necessarily good or bad. You discriminate when you make a judgement on a patient.

Diversity for diversity’s sake is meaningless, but you essentially ignored a huge part of what I said to make that argument. Diversity so that we have doctors bringing varied experiences into medicine so that patients can better relate to their doctors or so they may see something in a patient others don’t is not diversity for diversity’s sake. I’m not sure how you could possibly argue that wanting a more varied pool of doctors is a bad thing.
Click to expand...
Because racial variation is not important. Skill and knowledge and ability to work with others are the only parts that matter
 
sb247 said:
Because racial variation is not important. Skill and knowledge and ability to work with others are the only parts that matter
Click to expand...

You’ve either never had a patient who comes from a starkly different background, or you just grossly overestimate your ability to relate to everyone.

You are really marginalizing the impact that relatability has on patient interactions. It doesn’t matter if it should or not. The fact is that patients often are more compliant to doctors they think “get them.” You can choose to pretend that doesn’t exist because you don’t like it, or you can accept that it exists and work with it. To just flat out dismiss it and say diversity doesn’t matter is extremely short sighted and seems a bit discriminatory itself—and not the good kind.
 
gyngyn said:
You might be surprised.
Click to expand...

What about true URM's as have been described by other posters? For example, the ones that don't particularly look like most Hispanics?

Are you saying you're able to determine whether or not someone is truly a URM solely based on a (subjective) perception of whether or not they fit into your idea of what a URM "looks" or "acts" like? Without error?

Refer to:
monty55 said:
I really hope this isn’t based solely on appearance. As a Latina (although not URM) with lighter skin and eyes, I would disappointed if someone doubted my heritage because I didn’t “look” like it.
Click to expand...

Say you were to encounter someone similar to her and you felt they were "spinning" that URM question and they didn't fit your perception of what a URM is. What then?
 
Last edited:
Thapricorn123 said:
Say you were to encounter someone similar to her and you felt they were "spinning" that URM question and they didn't fit your perception of what a URM is. What then?
Click to expand...
Or an old friend of mine (not premed, but still) who is 100% mexican, but is actually albino so he has full pale skin/blonde hair
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
Is it okay to quit
Replies
7
Views
542
notEinstein
N
F
Is it worth to write the COVID essay if you were in HS when it hit?
Replies
4
Views
759
Goro
Goro
goodbob
Is it worth reapplying by any chance?
Replies
5
Views
1K
goodbob
goodbob
E
Is it okay to quit my job?
Replies
4
Views
934
LunaOri
LunaOri
BlatantPlatitude
Is it over?
Replies
18
Views
3K
wysdoc
wysdoc
Top