ADCOMS: Is it obvious when someone is falsely using URM to increase chances?

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

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Anyone who's been around this forum long enough has seen a thread starting like this:

"I'm Indian but I look Latino and I grew up in a Latino community, and I URM????"
"I'm Egyptian, can I put that I'm African to be URM???"
"I'm a quarter Latino, can I be considered URM??"

This just sickens me. So please stop. And a question to ADCOMS out there, how obvious is it when someone is trying to pull this off? Can you share your stories to explain to those that will try this in the future so they can see how much of an a$$hat they seem like when doing this?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Anyone who's been around this forum long enough has seen a thread starting like this:

"I'm Indian but I look Latino and I grew up in a Latino community, and I URM????"
"I'm Egyptian, can I put that I'm African to be URM???"
"I'm a quarter Latino, can I be considered URM??"

This just sickens me. So please stop. And a question to ADCOMS out there, how obvious is it when someone is trying to pull this off? Can you share your stories to explain to those that will try this in the future so they can see how much of an a$$hat they seem like when doing this?

I know someone who is putting AA because they are Egyptian.

 

[gyngyn]

I know someone who is putting AA because they are Egyptian.

This is the easiest to see through.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This is the easiest to see through.

I warned him, but another applicant encouraged it.

 

[Lannister]

I know someone who is putting AA because they are Egyptian.

I've seen an applicant do this. Didn't have any bearing on the admissions outcome.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've seen an applicant do this. Didn't have any bearing on the admissions outcome.

Good. I hope it doesn’t negatively affect him. He’s actually a great guy.

 

[Endoxifen]

I know someone who is putting AA because they are Egyptian.

Philosophically, I'm not sure how to feel about this. He's both lying and not lying. Obviously he knows the connotation and he's trying to attach himself to it for his own gain, but even so, I feel weird about punishing a person because the terminology I used was flawed.

Edit: I've thought about it some more and nope, screw that guy.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

I know someone who is putting AA because they are Egyptian.

I know someone who did that at my undergrad and actually got 6 II's but 6 post II's rejections too. Our premed advisor warned him...

 

[Lannister]

Philosophically, I'm not sure how to feel about this. He's both lying and not lying. Obviously he knows the connotation and he's trying to attach himself to it for his own gain, but even so, I feel weird about punishing a person because the terminology I used was flawed.

I could honestly see someone from Egypt listing themselves as African by mistake. I mean, Egypt is technically in Africa, so for someone who isn't educated about what URM really means, it might seem reasonable to say you're African.

 

[814965]

I can't see this helping anyone unless you're a white South African/Rhodesian and have the accent and paperwork to prove it.

 

[gyngyn]

I could honestly see someone from Egypt listing themselves as African by mistake. I mean, Egypt is technically in Africa, so for someone who isn't educated about what URM really means, it might seem reasonable to say you're African.

Nope. It's disingenuous.

 

[gyngyn]

I can't see this helping anyone unless you're a white South African/Rhodesian and have the accent and paperwork to prove it.

That's also disingenuous.

 

[Thapricorn123]

That's also disingenuous.

In this case then, why don't colleges just ask exactly what they mean to say? Why the whole "read between the lines" game?

If you want to know whether or not somebody is black, ask them if they're black. I don't see how it's exactly fair to ask if somebody is African-American and then ding them for answering correctly.

 

[Donna Moss]

Mindy Kaling's brother did this, and then dropped out of medical school.

 

[814965]

That's also disingenuous.

Eh, if I were an adcom I'd allow it. An applicant like that wouldn't really be wrong to automatically choose AA first. Though everyone has their own interpretations.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

You guys sure know a lot of people from Egypt.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Philosophically, I'm not sure how to feel about this. He's both lying and not lying. Obviously he knows the connotation and he's trying to attach himself to it for his own gain, but even so, I feel weird about punishing a person because the terminology I used was flawed.

Edit: I've thought about it some more and nope, screw that guy.

I mean I get it. He’s nervous and wants the best chance he can get. When I say he’s a good guy, I mean it. I don’t want to give too many details away, but he’s a hero. I think he’s just a bit misguided.

 

[gyngyn]

In this case then, why don't colleges just ask exactly what they mean to say? Why the whole "read between the lines" game?

If you want to know whether or not somebody is black, ask them if they're black. I don't see how it's exactly fair to ask if somebody is African-American and then ding them for answering correctly.

The applicant can check any box they want. We can decide for ourselves.

 

[Endoxifen]

I mean I get it. He’s nervous and wants the best chance he can get. When I say he’s a good guy, I mean it. I don’t want to give too many details away, but he’s a hero. I think he’s just a bit misguided.

I can understand the impulse and I absolutely empathize. I'm also sure that you're not lying. He may very well be a hero and I don't think that he should be dismissed because of one moment of weakness. Even so, he listed himself as an African American knowing what that meant. I'm obviously in no position to judge his application, but I do think that needs to be talked about by the adcom when they see his app. I hope everything works out for him, but what he did wasn't ok.

 

[Thapricorn123]

The applicant can check any box they want. We can decide for ourselves.

With all due respect, that doesn't really answer the question and seems like you're just deflecting the topic.

 

[Endoxifen]

With all due respect, that doesn't really answer the question and seems like you're just deflecting the topic.

It's a test of ethics.

 

[Thapricorn123]

It's a test of ethics.

I can sort of understand if that's what it is intended to be, but it doesn't change the fact that the question is prone to misinterpretation given that a factual answer can still be frowned upon or count against you.

 

[Conflagration]

The applicant can check any box they want. We can decide for ourselves.

What do you mean by that? Do you take SES into account with that decision?

 

[gyngyn]

With all due respect, that doesn't really answer the question and seems like you're just deflecting the topic.

Applicants are asked to sign an attestation to truth of their statements.
There comes a point at which "spin" might reasonably called lying.
Both the applicant and the evaluator get to make that call.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I can understand the impulse and I absolutely empathize. I'm also sure that you're not lying. He may very well be a hero and I don't think that he should be dismissed because of one moment of weakness. Even so, he listed himself as an African American knowing what that meant. I'm obviously in no position to judge his application, but I do think that needs to be talked about by the adcom when they see his app. I hope everything works out for him, but what he did wasn't ok.

He actually hasn’t done it yet. I’m hoping he changes his mind. And I agree with you. The person who encouraged him responded to my concerns by asking how anyone would know? I mean, when he shows up to the interview and isn’t black, they’re gonna know.

 

[Endoxifen]

I can sort of understand if that's what it is intended to be, but it doesn't change the fact that the question is prone to misinterpretation given that a factual answer can still be frowned upon or count against you.

How many people in the States don't know what the race categories indicate? Sure, there will be immigrants applying, buy they will definitively be familiar with them by the time they are applying. It's not like it's a trick question.

 

[Endoxifen]

He actually hasn’t done it yet. I’m hoping he changes his mind. And I agree with you. The person who encouraged him responded to my concerns by asking how anyone would know? I mean, when he shows up to the interview and isn’t black, they’re gonna know.

Sit him down and show him this thread. If he's still bound and determined, then I think it's becoming a red flag.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

How many people in the States don't know what the race categories indicate? Sure, there will be immigrants applying, buy they will definitively be familiar with them by the time they are applying. It's not like it's a trick question.

It’s a stupid term that is misleading. But everyone knows what it means, so that’s irrelevant.

 

[mydogmolly]

The applicant can check any box they want. We can decide for ourselves.

Do you get a lot of non-Mexican latinos who claim to be Mexican? I have several friends who are Salvadorian or Cuban who are planning on just checking Mexican for the URM classification. I guess it would be difficult to know

 

[Conflagration]

How many people in the States don't know what the race categories indicate? Sure, there will be immigrants applying, buy they will definitively be familiar with them by the time they are applying. It's not like it's a trick question.

My aunt once put down that she was a Native American because she was born in America. That worked just about as well as you'd expect.

She was offered a scholarship contingent on proof of her 100% Native American heritage (her logic was that both she and my grandparents were born in America, which even by that logic she could have only been 75% Native because my great-grandfather was born in Montreal, and if you go further back it dwindles even more), which she of course didn't have. She was asked for a tribal identification card and showed them her driver's license. This woman is the most educated living member of my family. :/

I'm not saying that it's not intentional sometimes. But anyone who thinks that they have made something idiot-proof hasn't met an idiot.

 

[gyngyn]

Do you get a lot of non-Mexican latinos who claim to be Mexican? I have several friends who are Salvadorian or Cuban who are planning on just checking Mexican for the URM classification. I guess it would be difficult to know

You might be surprised.

 

[Endoxifen]

My aunt once put down that she was a Native American because she was born in America. That worked just about as well as you'd expect.

She was offered a scholarship contingent on proof of her 100% Native American heritage (her logic was that both she and my grandparents were born in America, which even by that logic she could have only been 75% Native because my great-grandfather was born in Montreal, and if you go further back it dwindles even more), which she of course didn't have. She was asked for a tribal identification card and showed them her driver's license. This woman is the most educated living member of my family. :/

I'm not saying that it's not intentional sometimes. But anyone who thinks that they have made something idiot-proof hasn't met an idiot.

We are talking about medical school here. Really, things shouldn't be that idiot proof.

 

[Conflagration]

We are talking about medical school here. Really, thing's shouldn't be that idiot proof.

I'm all for keeping high expectations, but a major component of any field is communication. I'm currently teaching for a while to finance a post-bac, and something as simple as rephrasing a question can get much higher quality answers. Asking "are you a member of a group that is systematically disenfranchised?" gets different answers than "are you an under-represented minority (African-American, Latino, etc.)?"

 

[altblue]

I mean I get it. He’s nervous and wants the best chance he can get. When I say he’s a good guy, I mean it. I don’t want to give too many details away, but he’s a hero. I think he’s just a bit misguided.

So your hero friend is exempt from punishment then, while those non-heroes who also misrepresented their background aren't

 

[Thapricorn123]

Applicants are asked to sign an attestation to truth of their statements.
There comes a point at which "spin" might reasonably called lying.
Both the applicant and the evaluator get to make that call.

How do you determine whether an applicant was trying to "spin" an answer or if they genuinely misunderstood?

I can understand "spin" being an issue when describing subjective responses such as inspirations, goals, or experiences, but a simple question about someone's geographic heritage doesn't seem to fall in that category from my point of view.

How many people in the States don't know what the race categories indicate? Sure, there will be immigrants applying, buy they will definitively be familiar with them by the time they are applying. It's not like it's a trick question.

It's akin to asking an Asian-American born and raised* in Portland "where are you from?" and then getting confused when they say "Oregon". They may have understood what you meant, or perhaps not, but the fact that there was ambiguity in the question kind of voids your right to be annoyed.

It just seems from my perspective that the onus should be on the one asking the question to clearly ask what information they're seeking. There's a reason you need to be precise in phrasing for 99% of legal discourse. Communication is an important part of life in general, let alone something like medicine.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So your highly ethical friend is exempt from punishment then, while those non-heroes who also mislead about their background deserve the punishment

Have you taken the MCAT yet?

I said he’s a good guy who is a hero, ie, puts others before himself all the time. This instance of poor judgment (which he hasn’t actually done yet) is not typical of him, so I am hoping be changes his mind.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I'm all for keeping high expectations, but a major component of any field is communication. I'm currently teaching for a while to finance a post-bac, and something as simple as rephrasing a question can get much higher quality answers. Asking "are you a member of a group that is systematically disenfranchised?" gets different answers than "are you an under-represented minority (African-American, Latino, etc.)?"

Asking something like that could open up a whole different can of worms. Every single person could make an argument as to why they feel that they're marginalized in some way or another.

 

[Conflagration]

Asking something like that could open up a whole different can of worms. Every single person could make an argument as to why they feel that they're marginalized in some way or another.

I think the way they could go about that is by breaking the criteria into different categories: SES, race, and maybe an extenuating circumstance component. The latter being reserved for those in the foster care system, those who have been displaced in other ways, things like that.

 

[Endoxifen]

I think the way they could go about that is by breaking the criteria into different categories: SES, race, and maybe an extenuating circumstance component. The latter being reserved for those in the foster care system, those who have been displaced in other ways, things like that.

I think the problem with this method is that URM doesn't mean disenfranchised, it means a minority, underrepresented in medicine. Medical schools aren't necessarily looking to intervene in systemic imbalances in society, they're trying to deal with issues in medicine.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think the problem with this method is that URM doesn't mean disenfranchised, it means a minority, underrepresented in medicine. Medical schools aren't necessarily looking to intervene in systemic imbalances in society, they're trying to deal with issues in medicine.

That’s why there’s also a box to check if you feel you’ve been disadvantaged.

 

[mydogmolly]

It's akin to asking an Asian-American born in Portland "where are you from?" and then getting confused when they say "Oregon".

I'm not sure what you actually mean. I wouldn't be confused if they said oregon lol. Unless you mean to ask "what is your ethnicity"

 

[gyngyn]

How do you determine whether an applicant was trying to "spin" an answer or if they genuinely misunderstood?

We have to make a reasonable determination, given the information submitted, as we do in other matters.

 

[Endoxifen]

It's akin to asking an Asian-American born and raised* in Portland "where are you from?" and then getting confused when they say "Oregon". They may have understood what you meant, or perhaps not, but the fact that there was ambiguity in the question kind of voids your right to be annoyed.

It just seems from my perspective that the onus should be on the one asking the question to clearly ask what information they're seeking. There's a reason you need to be precise in phrasing for 99% of legal discourse. Communication is an important part of life in general, let alone something like medicine.

I understand what you're saying, but there is the issue of convention. People are already familiar with the race classifications. By changing something to make it clearer, in may cases, you risk increasing the number of misunderstandings.

 

[Conflagration]

I understand what you're saying, but there is the issue of convention. People are already familiar with the race classifications. By changing something to make it clearer, in may cases, you risk increasing the number of misunderstandings.

Obviously not everyone is, or people wouldn't be able to weasel themselves into these definitions. If there was a description saying "those who trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africa", that would be different than the current definition and may help clarify the criterion for some people. And I don't pretend to know how to define everything, but it can't hurt to try to be more clear.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

This thread is more popular than I am

 

[mydogmolly]

Obviously not everyone is, or people wouldn't be able to weasel themselves into these definitions. If there was a description saying "those who trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africa", that would be different than the current definition and may help clarify the criterion for some people. And I don't pretend to know how to define everything, but it can't hurt to try to be more clear.

Can't we all? lol I jest. we have fun

 

[Endoxifen]

Obviously not everyone is, or people wouldn't be able to weasel themselves into these definitions. If there was a description saying "those who trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africa", that would be different than the current definition and may help clarify the criterion for some people. And I don't pretend to know how to define everything, but it can't hurt to try to be more clear.

You may very well be right, but it's also possible that if only the AMCAS uses it, their applications will always have this problem because each incoming class won't be familiar with the system. I could be making the issue a bigger deal than it actually is, but this would honestly be an interesting an interesting study: which system has the most incorrect classifications, the convention or the optimized?

 

[Thapricorn123]

I'm not sure what you actually mean. I wouldn't be confused if they said oregon lol. Unless you mean to ask "what is your ethnicity"

That's sort of my point. When someone means to ask "what's your ethnicity", they often phrase it as "where are you from". It's just a common figure of speech. Obviously one question is more specific while the other leads to possible misunderstandings (such as the case I laid out).

Similarly here, AAMC means to ask "are you black?" but instead phrases it as "are you African-American?". The latter question leads to problems with white folks from Egypt or South Africa who answer the question honestly by saying "yes", but are dinged by interviewers when they find out they're not black.

 

[Thapricorn123]

I understand what you're saying, but there is the issue of convention. People are already familiar with the race classifications. By changing something to make it clearer, in may cases, you risk increasing the number of misunderstandings.

I understand the convention argument, it can often be confusing to switch conventions in many cases, but I don't see how switching from "African-American" to "Black" can do anything but make things clearer. I can't see any room for confusion there.

 

[Conflagration]

You may very well be right, but it's also possible that if only the AMCAS uses it, their applications will always have this problem because each incoming class isn't familiar with the system. I could be making the issue a bigger deal than it actually is, but this would honestly be an interesting an interesting study: which system has the most incorrect classifications, the convention or the optimized?

I'd be interested to see what works better, for sure. Let some grad student do that study, though. That'd be a lot of data to sift through.