Adderall abuse amongst students!

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Might be why I have totaly different views than people here since I am from a socialistic country that do have alot of goverment controll in the healthcare (free healthcare).

Well going by your logic, in America we have roads that are made for free, police officers that work for free, and free medical care for our older citizens.

Maybe if you had a capitalistic society, your Universities might be a little better; this would probably help out your lack of English proficiency.

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Hey you most likely go to lublin medical school. Ill tell you something not to attack you or be rude, but for norwegians its much easier to get through than american students, you guys study and take your sweet time for 6 years, and boom u become MD's, with no board or any crazy test to take. Us americans have to do 4 years of BS and then another 4 years of Medical school plus 3 very hard board exams. If someone needs to take adderal to study then so be it. Dont go around judging others when you have it easy for yourself! Gdluck on being a compassionate physician..

I study in Poznan... FYI we have Americans in the 6MD which are going back to the states later.
 
I study in Poznan... FYI we have Americans in the 6MD which are going back to the states later.


I know that you have American students, im talking about the europeans who have it much easier than the rest.
 
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how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.
 
how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.
 
how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.
 
how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.
 
how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.
:smack:
 
how much is Ritalin with no insurance? i cant study without taking constant breaks. usualy i need to break 2-3 hours for every hour i study. if i dont i just get so frustrated its unbelievable.

:poke:

:poke:

:poke:

:poke:
 
Am I the only one that is shocked and disgusted that people abuse substances like Adderall and Ritalin to be able to study for a cupple of hours!?

Seriously, if you can't study without using amphetamins you do not have anything to do in whatever you are studying (esp. in medicine for the ethical part and that you should know better)...

It pisses me off that people can be that stupid! And not to stereotype, but it seems like Americans are the worst at this (up to 25% in certain unis.).. I dont know one person in Norway that would/or have used these drugs to study for an exam.

/rant

I do agree on the part of people abusing adderall or Ritalin to get ahead and stay up late to study. I currently take it because I need it to focus. It doesnt make me lazy or stupid person. I know you didnt say people were stupid for taking, but I agree its a stupid thing when it is abused. Just like any other RX, its ok if taken PRN but not ok when its being abused. Taking this RX has really helped me focus more on class and focus more on work.

I agree as far as these drugs being abused that it's a huge problem, but i hate how you seem to assume that any use of the drugs is abuse. Some people genuinely need these medications because of illnesses that you don't seem to understand yet. Although i was diagnosed with ADHD many years ago, i never took the meds because it seemed like an easy out and that i should just push through. But thinking about it, i woudln't do that for a lot of other diagnoses and meds. I just agree that it's an overdiagnosed/overmedicated problem. But for some people it really just does get out of control and taking medication to get the problem back under control makes sense. When i am going through a depressive episode, i can't study at all, my adhd is exacerbated to such an extent that i could easily fail out of school. taking my adhd meds that i finally gave in and accepted a prescription for makes a huge difference, helps me get out of bed and stay in the library, and be able to read a few chapters instead of continuing in my own depressed state. I wish more med students were able to really understand how people like the second poster i quoted and myself aren't just lazy and stupid, we have an illness, a neuropsychiatric problem created by differences in our physiology and we are just trying to correct these to stay afloat. i

in short, please don't assume that just because someone takes these meds that they are abusing them to get ahead. Yes, i do see a lot of this in the competitive academic enviornments i've been in; but i also see a lot of people who are genuinely intelligent and hard working people side-tracked by their illnesses, trying to get back on the level playing field and get their s**t done.
 
p.s. admitting to problems like ADHD, depression, or anxiety disorders is a really difficult thing to do in an area like medicine where we treat these things and somehow still stigmatize them at the same time. Maybe more people should spend a little bit more time focusing on their own insecurities and lay off on making assumptions or judgements about others based on the meds they take or the problems they addmitt to.
 
The crux of the problem is this: virtually any one of us can be diagnosed with ADHD, if not with honest self-representation then just as easily by dishonest answering of the survey. The DSM IV criteria for ADHD is:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html

For me, personally, I can honestly answer yes to many of the criteria.

DSM-IV Criteria for ADHD

I. Either A or B:

  • Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention have been present for at least 6 months to a point that is inappropriate for developmental level:

    Inattention



    1. Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities. Check. Miss details in studying all the time.
    2. Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities. Tasks such as studying for med school? Yup. I have common bouts where I surf the web for 5-10 mins after every 2 paragraphs of reading.
    3. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
    4. Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).Yeah, it's pretty common to study for only 3 lectures instead of the 5 I plan on for the day.
    5. Often has trouble organizing activities.
    6. Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework). Uh...no question.
    7. Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).
    8. Is often easily distracted. See surfing web comment. In addition, in lecture I often alt-tab to reading news articles for 2-4 minutes at a time, every 10 minutes.
    9. Is often forgetful in daily activities. I'm not terribly forgetful, but it isn't uncommon for me to forget small things throughout the day. Like all people.


  • Six or more of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have been present for at least 6 months to an extent that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:


    Hyperactivity

    1. Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat when sitting still is expected.
    2. Often gets up from seat when remaining in seat is expected.
    3. Often excessively runs about or climbs when and where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may feel very restless).
    4. Often has trouble playing or doing leisure activities quietly.
    5. Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor".
    6. Often talks excessively.


    • Impulsivity
    1. Often blurts out answers before questions have been finished.
    2. Often has trouble waiting one's turn.
    3. Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games).

II. Some symptoms that cause impairment were present before age 7 years. It's rather abnormal for a kid to be able to focus on schoolwork for long periods of time.

III. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g. at school/work and at home). Study at school and study at home is just the same.

IV. There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning. Oh yes.

V. The symptoms do not happen only during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorder. The symptoms are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g. Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder).


And there you have it. I can be diagnosed with ADHD and not even be lying. Yet I still do well in school and I don't take amphetamines or other psychostimulant (other than caffeine, which merely keeps me AWAKE but not concentrated). Based on stories that I read here, I have little doubt that I could go ahead and get diagnosed with ADHD, pop a few ritalins a day and perform much better than I am currently doing. Or even if I didn't necessarily pass the above criteria honestly, any college/medical student is (hopefully) smart enough to answer the survey correctly to be "diagnosed" with ADHD. Or you could just go buy ritalin off the street illegally. The point is that ADHD is such a subjective diagnosis anyone could get it. It's not like some genetic, metabolic, or physiologic disorder that you run blood tests on and objectively see a low serum whatever. No, this is a survey. I can answer honestly or dishonestly and get an ADHD diagnosis complete with psychostimulant and subsequently do better on exams. The cost is cheap, the professional ramifications are few, the side-effects are minor (if used properly), and the benefits are plenty.

So why don't I do it? Because for some strange reason, our society thinks it's humanly NORMAL to stare at complicated text on paper and on eye-straining computer screens for hours on end and be expected to remember and know the material read. I don't know about you guys, but there's just about nothing normal about that behavior. Is it required for us to obtain the knowledge we need? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's physiologically and mentally normal for humans to perform such tasks. I think it's far more normal for me, a human being, to read what I find interesting (NOT lecture notes), look at what I find attractive (NOT pathology slides, and do what I find is fun (NOT photographically memorizing a 12x12 table of drugs and their side effects). What I've noticed is that we are a society that progressively demands more and more out of our children...that we be able to cram more and more into our little heads. And when we find ourselves pushed to the limit and unable to do more, we shame ourselves with inadequacy. That other kid (0.1% of the population) can do it, why can't you? Has it ever occurred to us that the 0.1% that can cram for 10 hours straight and actually retain the material is abnormal? Nope. That's desirable, even if it means the kid is deficient in everything else. Well popping that psychostimulant seems to be able to bump my cramming abilities to par with the 0.1% kid. That must be the right thing to do. Must be. Because being on psychostimulants is the right if that's what's needed to succeed. They say somewhere around 7% of college kids regularly use a psychostimulant without diagnosis of ADHD. I've read other places that at least some 50% of med students have tried it at some point. Is that right? Is that normal? Am I supposed to be able to listen to 3-4 hours of boring ass lecture day after day, where half the material is what I already know and the other half is often well over my head, and actually pay attention the entire time? Hmmm....

I think what we need to do is re-set realistic expectations. Excessive, overachieving academics has not, is not, and never will be normal. It's not normal when a 2-year old is adding/subtracting double digit numbers. It's not normal for a 1st grader to do book reports (<---my cousin is doing that). And even at our twenties, it's still not normal to be able to sit down and read intently at the driest material you've ever seen for hours on end. Do some people inherently have more difficulties doing academics than others? Sure. Is prescription of a psychostimulant indicated for such a condition? Perhaps, maybe. But to think that most cases of what we consider to be "ADHD" and that it is a disease to be "fixed" I think is egregious lest we churn out more mindless zombies who can only push themselves further academically yet completely forget how to have fun in life. Oh, and also how to spend time and care for a family. But I digress.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that society asks us to do the abnormal. Some of us can pull through without drugs or adaptations. These are rare. Others can pull through by toughing it out. Still others require the assistance of medications to succeed. This is all well and good if it results in more knowledgeable doctors that end up saving lives. But to think that what we have to go through is normal for homo sapiens sapiens, I think, is a mistake that can easily lead to self-doubt, disillusionment, and drug abuse.
 
And as a result of typing up that post, I overcooked my broccoli to a disgusting gray-green sludge. I hate you all.
 
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And not to stereotype, but it seems like Americans are the worst at this (up to 25% in certain unis.).. I dont know one person in Norway that would/or have used these drugs to study for an exam.

/rant
And not to stereotype... but I am stereotyping anyway. :rolleyes: I don't know many Norwegians that take Ritalin, but my best GF who started med school in Germany, and who outperformed me academically, back when we both attended senior high in Oslo, did take ritalin when cramming for exams, plus donepezil, and many cups of coffee. Just to pass.

I do agree with Orbo, that this special way of living isn't a healthy or even natural one, but it is a question of what you value. Some are more competitive than others, and some have to fight to survive both the selection process in early college/senior high, and through med school. I really doubt anyone here will be able to shift the perspective of over-achievers by raising a moral finger at them, quoting some ethical paper you just read off the internet.

If ethics was a real concern, ritalin should become OTC asap, as access to ritalin gives a real benefit in the academic survival of the dopiest. (By the way, Orbo, really love your take on adhd and how performance pressure skews perspective on what is normal, and what needs to be treated.
 
.... This is all well and good if it results in more knowledgeable doctors that end up saving lives. But to think that what we have to go through is normal for homo sapiens sapiens, I think, is a mistake that can easily lead to self-doubt, disillusionment, and drug abuse.

Possibly one of the most original and well-though posts I've ever seen on SDN. :thumbup: I like your outlook.
 
i'm against long term usage of adderall/ritalin bc of some chronic side effects but i don't see a problem in medical students using it occasionally during 'crunch periods'

i also think provigil (modafinil) can be used responsibly especially if you switch shift timings alot or have to work extended periods. its less addictive than amphetamines and has much fewer side effects
 
Personally, I'm against the use of medications when they are taken by someone at no discernible disadvantage with the purpose of not making life healthier, but easier.

Yes, the use of a drug like Adderall can can make it easier for most people to learn and remember information. However, I believe that almost all of those people could learn the same material, just as well without the drug. It may take longer, and it may involve actually working out new studying and memorization tactics...but they decide not to, because in 2009 there is more pressure to succeed and more and more people are hunting out the golden little pill that will solve all of their problems the fast and easy way.

I understand the people who say that it is a personal choice, and I agree with that. But from my end, I only see bad things coming from the unnecessary use of drugs like this. If everyone gradually becomes more productive and more capable of learning this way, then where does that set the bar for the next generation? What about those who actually have ADD? The drug was originally designed to lessen the gap between those who could focus with effort and those who absolutely could not. If everyone takes Adderall, the students with legitimate ADD fall off the curve once again. With the bar set so high, what happens to anxiety and depression levels - not to mention self esteem?

What happens when people are so used to taking drugs to make their lives more manageable, and then one day they have too much to learn or the drug is gone?

One of the biggest problems in our society is that more and more often people judge their self-worth by external factors - how much money they make, how high their test scores can be. And those are the reasons why many people choose to take drugs like this when they do not need them. Many people aren't afraid of failing boards - they're afraid of not getting the score they need to match into a high-paying prestigious specialty. That would be all well and good if those people actually wanted those jobs because of a passionate love of the field, but I honestly have yet to meet more than a handful of dermatologists who really love skin. I know this isn't true of everyone, but when I hear about people using Adderall who have no genuine need for it, on some level I assume that those people are motivated by external things and that they are very unhappy in their own lives. Why else would someone risk their health for a few extra points? Why would someone not respect the way their mind naturally works if that mind can get them through life and medical school just fine? I'm not saying that people who use Adderall are bad people. I'm just saying that I really can't understand it.
 
"a gramme is better than a damn"
 
I can understand OP's frustration, along with everyone else in the countless threads this one has rehashed. It's no different than the controversy surrounding athletes and anabolic steroid use.

But then again, what the hell am I doing defending a neurotic sociopath like OP? He'd probably be waiting in the airport, waiting to bite my damn head off the next time I step foot in Norway.
 
WHY WON'T THIS THREAD DIE!

and ritalin costs $4-5 at walmart

LOL! because comments keep rolling in!

Here it costs more than that at Walmart (even the generic.)

Ritalin actually makes me sleepy, it puts me in that kind of calm space that I am in after a long active day at the clinic an hour or so before bed, where fatigue is just starting to set in. Caffeine does the same for me. It means I can sit in a chair most of the day listening to lectures, something I will never do in practice, thank goodness! However, it wouldn't help me for cramming, I need the steady in class use of it to not daydream and fidget through most of class. If I tried to cram with it, I would just end up crashing and sleeping deeply.
 
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