Addressing PE

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Jackaleauxpe said:
This is what I'm pondering: if there is really any benefit to keeping my summer test date. If I take PE I risk failing and being totally screwed for interviews and the match. If I cancel it I'll be fine since PDs won't care, seeing as they'll no longer be tracking if MD students have CS done. My school hasn't waived it as a graduation requirement but come autumn they really won't have a choice. Many of my classmates are currently stuck with September and October test dates and it's not like they can keep half of us from graduating.

I'm starting to lean towards canceling for the above reasons and the reason you stated.
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my feeling is:
- all M4s should cancel. after match day, if you match in a state that requires the PE, by all means re-register and nab a date during intern year.
- all current M3s should also cancel. failing the PE isn't a death sentence, but it does happen and due to all the cancellations, it is perfectly normal to not have a score in by ERAS opening. far better to have no score than to have a fail IMO. AND TAKE USMLE STEP 2!!!!!
 
qwertythrowaway said:
my feeling is:
- all M4s should cancel. after match day, if you match in a state that requires the PE, by all means re-register and nab a date during intern year.
- all current M3s should also cancel. failing the PE isn't a death sentence, but it does happen and due to all the cancellations, it is perfectly normal to not have a score in by ERAS opening. far better to have no score than to have a fail IMO. AND TAKE USMLE STEP 2!!!!!
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This is reasonable advice.
 
Osminog said:
Cool. Do you know of any DO schools that don’t require COMLEX levels 1 and 2?
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As of now, all DO schools are required to have their students take and pass COMLEX in order to graduate, since this requirement is required to maintain AOA/COCA accreditation

Element 6.12: COMLEX-USA
All students must successfully pass COMLEX-USA Level 1, Level 2 CE, and Level 2 PE prior to graduation from an osteopathic medical school. The COM must publish to the public the COMLEX -USA Level 1, Level 2 CE, Level 2 PE, and Level 3 first time pass rate for all students in each class at the COM.
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There are a few other quirks that students must keep in mind before cancelling COMLEX Level 2 PE ... some states may require COMLEX Level 2 for licensure (either as part of the COMLEX series, or because they have an OMT/OPP requirement that COMLEX PE satisfy)

California requires COMLEX for unrestricted license and does not accept USMLE

Welcome To Our Web Site - Osteopathic Medical Board of California

www.ombc.ca.gov www.ombc.ca.gov
To meet the examination requirements, the applicant must have passed the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners, Inc. (NBOME) Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination of the United States (COMLEX-US) levels 1, 2 Cognitive Evaluation (CE) and 2Performance Evaluation (PE), and level 3. Applicant must request that NBOME send exam scores directly to OMBC.
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Florida requires COMLEX for unrestricted license and does not accept USMLE

Osteopathic Medicine Full Licensure - Florida Board of Osteopathic Medicine

floridasosteopathicmedicine.gov floridasosteopathicmedicine.gov

Must pass all three (3) parts of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME) exam within 5 years of application or licensure in another state, or a substantially similar exam approved by the Board. The Board does not consider the USMLE or FLEX exams to be comparable to the NBOME.
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Michigan requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

West Virginia requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

Home - WV Board of Osteopathic Medicine

www.wvbdosteo.org www.wvbdosteo.org

Oklahoma requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

Oklahoma State Board of Osteopathic Examiners - Home

Welcome to the Oklahoma State Board of Osteopathic Examiners Website
www.osboe.ok.gov www.osboe.ok.gov

Pennsylvania Board of Osteopathic Medicine, by law, requires that applicants (for unrestricted license) have taken and pass an OMT component in order to be granted a license (in addition to the AOA approved intern year requirement). The Board have determined that COMLEX Level 2 PE counts towards the OMT component. If you don't have COMLEX PE, then you'll need to sign up to take a separate OMT exam in order to get licensed in Pennsylvania (currently administrated by PearsonVUE)

Pennsylvania Osteopathic Medicine

The Pennsylvania Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy Examination is coordinated through the Pennsylvania Department of State.
home.pearsonvue.com home.pearsonvue.com

Board Resources and Documents | Department of State | Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

www.dos.pa.gov www.dos.pa.gov

§ 25.241. Unrestricted license by examination.​


To secure an unrestricted license for the practice of osteopathic medicine and surgery by examination, the applicant shall meet the following educational and professional requirements. The applicant shall have:

(1) Graduated from an approved osteopathic medical college.

(2) Received passing scores on Parts I, II and III of the National Board Examination. The applicant shall pay the required examination fee at the direction of the National Board.

(3) Received a passing score on the practical examination in osteopathic diagnosis and manipulative therapy developed and administered by the Board or a designated professional testing organization.

(4) Successfully completed an approved internship.

(5) Complied with the malpractice insurance requirements of the Health Care Services Malpractice Act (40 P. S. § § 1301.101—1301.1006) and regulations thereunder.
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Effective March 29, 2006, DOs who have passed COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE, the Osteopathic Clinical Skills Examination, are now exempt from taking the state board’s OMT examination. Effective March 12, 2008 the Board addressed the issue of whether an applicant for licensure would be required to complete the OMT examination if applicant had already successfully completed an osteopathic board certification examination, that included an OMT component or who already successfully completed an OMT examination as a requirement for another state license. The applicants would be deemed to have met the Board’s OMT examination requirement if the applicant can provide proof to the Board that he/she has completed an osteopathic certification examination that included an OMT component or provide proof that the applicant completed an OMT examination as a requirement for another state license. The Board will review these requests on a case-by-case basis.
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Maine apparently requires an OPP exam if the USMLE is taken without COMLEX

Washington (state) requires an OPP exam if the USMLE was taken in lieu of COMLEX

Tennessee - COMLEX, NBOME for initial or reciprocal licensure -USMLE and FLEX accepted for reciprocity only
 
I heard mixed views on Oklahoma. What's the consensus here. Do we need the PE?
 
throwaway199 said:
Guys so I have meeting scheduled with Dr. Gimpel soon... I'll let you guys know what he says.

The only thing I can see him fighting me back on is OMM part of the PE. I need good defense on that.


FYI tho: So unless you plan on practicing in these states (Pennsylvania, Florida, West Virginia, Michigan and Oklahoma)....you can take Step 1, 2 and 3 and get your license to practice. As long as you complete all your DO school's requirements AND do a ACGME residency (ie all the prgms now).
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The defense is easy, we are evaluated way more frequently and thoroughly by our schools every semester during preclinical than PE ever could.

make Gimpel say that he doesn’t actually trust the schools to evaluate OMM. If he won’t say it, I would paraphrase it via ‘So what I understand your saying is...’ he will push back no matter what anyway, cause he’s a giant man child, but it will be fun to watch. Also remind him he never took the test, therefore how could he possibly know it’s effective.
 
Why do some people list the states you need COMLEX series for but leave out California?

I was under the impression CA requires COMLEX. Am I missing something?
 
msnbc2020 said:
Did you actually read the post by group_theory? Yes. You are missing something.
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Really? Totally unnecessary. This is why I much prefer reddit.

I did read the group_theory post.

However, if you read the first part of my post I was curious as to why some people leave out CA from the list of states. That would set the context for the second question.

Great reading comprehension, and way to rush straight to judgement.
 
msnbc2020 said:
Ok. Sorry to upset you. So you read the group_theory post and understood it (and it included California). Then you muddy the waters and state that "some people" do not include California. Who exactly are "some people"? I have not seen "some people" posting anything like that in this thread.
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throwaway199 said:
FYI tho: So unless you plan on practicing in these states (Pennsylvania, Florida, West Virginia, Michigan and Oklahoma)....you can take Step 1, 2 and 3 and get your license to practice. As long as you complete all your DO school's requirements AND do a ACGME residency (ie all the prgms now).
Click to expand...

No worries. But this was literally just a page back in this thread and I’ve seen lists like this elsewhere as well. So I was just trying to figure out the discrepancy.
 
12jas said:
If the NBOME holds their ground we need to lobby to have those remaining states change their licensing laws. If we can be licensed in every state with the USMLE series we will not only kill the PE but kill Level 3 at the same time. Most of us are already taking USMLE 1 and 2. This would also put real pressure on the NBOME. I think if they saw states fix their laws they would cave instantly and cancel it in order to keep us from skipping level 3.
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What the NBOME is doing seems to be pretty unconstitutional when compared with what the NBME has done with step 2 CS. The NBOME is using rhetoric to maintain and defend their cash cow even though the large majority of medical education has done away with an equivalent standardized patient exam. Contact the state representatives of where NBOME testing is held and remind them that Dr. Gimble is putting lives at stake and inciting COVID super spreading by allowing this useless test to continue during this time. The PE exam should be done away with in accordance with what the NBME has done.


Communicating with Legislators - Advocacy

www2.illinois.gov www2.illinois.gov

www.legis.state.pa.us

Find My Legislator - The Official Website of the Pennsylvania General Assembly

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I called today and asked for my refund. The lady no longer sounded surprised. She asked me why I wanted a refund. I asked her back: “haven’t you heard of the reason all day?” She bursted into laughter herself. Everybody deserves a refund. Together we can make the movement happen. #cancel COMLEX PE
 
CocoMelon0531 said:
That's actually not true, bc there are plenty of FM programs that will straight up DNR you w/ a failed PE.
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Proportionally, the primary care specialties are more likely to accept someone with a failed PE.

(Please note: I in no way believe primary care to be a lesser group of specialties.)
 
My school is still advising we take PE before ERAS goes out 🤣🤣🤣🤣. Its insane how many times ive blatantly disregarded any residency advice my school has given me over the years. I learn more on SDN and from current residents than anything. The horrible advice DO school residency advisors give is just appalling
 
Deecee2DO said:
My school is still advising we take PE before ERAS goes out 🤣🤣🤣🤣. Its insane how many times ive blatantly disregarded any residency advice my school has given me over the years. I learn more on SDN and from current residents than anything. The horrible advice DO school residency advisors give is just appalling
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That’s ridiculous I don’t even know what to say, I am ashamed of DO leadership, disadvantaging over 25% of all American medical students all in the name of $$$$ while MD students no longer have to worry about a useless test potentially ruining their career.
@Goro please do something SOS..
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
That’s ridiculous I don’t even know what to say, I am ashamed of DO leadership, disadvantaging over 25% of all American medical students all in the name of $$$$ while MD students no longer have to worry about a useless test potentially ruining their career.
@Goro please do something SOS..
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Yes @Goro we need you and your colleagues now more than ever. Who do we call? Who can we lobby? How can we organize???
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
Yes @Goro we need you and your colleagues now more than ever. Who do we call? Who can we lobby? How can we organize???
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If we have learned anything from this past year, that is that we need to advocate for ourselves and speak up, we need to be contacting the governors/mayors of the cities and states and letting them know(while they still have quarantines in place for out of state travelers ) that the nbome is literally forcing thousands of students and even residents over the next 6-12 months into their cities for a completely and utterly unnecessary exam while there’s a global pandemic still raging!!!
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
If we have learned anything from this past year, that is that we need to advocate for ourselves and speak up, we need to be contacting the governors/mayors of the cities and states and letting them know(while they still have quarantines in place for out of state travelers ) that the nbome is literally forcing thousands of students and even residents over the next 6-12 months into their cities for a completely and utterly unnecessary exam while there’s a global pandemic still raging!!!
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This. They're not going to listen to me.

Engage with sympathetic DO faculty, who can then lobby on your behalf with COCA. This means younger faculty and those who are NOT True Believers.
 
Gloves coming off, had to go over the loud speaker for this one. Decided to copy and paste my response to twitter with an added link indicating that there's a possibility even those vaccinated could spread COVID-19.
www.healthline.com

You're Far Less Likely to Spread the Coronavirus If You're Vaccinated

Fully vaccinated people are less likely to contract the coronavirus than unvaccinated people. If they don’t get an infection, they can’t transmit the virus to others.
www.healthline.com www.healthline.com

My throwaway twitter is @jonny50344243 btw for anyone who wants to follow in case I get flagged for spam or something.
 

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FutureDoctor5000 said:
That’s ridiculous I don’t even know what to say, I am ashamed of DO leadership, disadvantaging over 25% of all American medical students all in the name of $$$$ while MD students no longer have to worry about a useless test potentially ruining their career.
@Goro please do something SOS..
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Let’s boycott it! They literally cannot afford to derail us all. The power is with the people.
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Hopefully I think eventually the bad PR will ultimately lead them to cancel it at some point . I mean no one will care about the test, since no MD student will have a CS score.
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I agree and I legitimately believe that the test will lose all merritt in the eyes of PDs as of next year. This being said, as long as schools require it to graduate, and the states require it to take Level 3, it will remain. If we boycott it, they are powerless. It is just difficult to get a very large number of “rule following” people (medical students) to engage in civil disobedience such as this Lol.
 
hawthorn9797 said:
I agree and I legitimately believe that the test will lose all merritt in the eyes of PDs as of next year. This being said, as long as schools require it to graduate, and the states require it to take Level 3, it will remain. If we boycott it, they are powerless. It is just difficult to get a very large number of “rule following” people (medical students) to engage in civil disobedience such as this Lol.
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Is there a way to let every PD know what the NBOME is doing? They might not even be aware and might just be assuming that the NBOME is following the NBME. For all we know a few PDs might have had something to do with ending the CS. They actually have some influence and would probably be even more frustrated with us having to go back and take PE than we are.
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
Is there a way to let every PD know what the NBOME is doing? They might not even be aware and might just be assuming that the NBOME is following the NBME. For all we know a few PDs might have had something to do with ending the CS. They actually have some influence and would probably be even more frustrated with us having to go back and take PE than we are.
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They do not care.
 
hawthorn9797 said:
It is just difficult to get a very large number of “rule following” people (medical students) to engage in civil disobedience such as this Lol.
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I think the issue comes more with the fact that most schools require a passing PE in order to graduate, except for this year. If it was just a finger to the NBOME I would've cancelled by now, as I'm sure pretty much everyone would.
 
msnbc2020 said:
No. Most schools require passing PE to graduate is not correct.
All schools require passing PE to graduate to meet COCA accreditation (except for this year when the test has been unavailable since last spring),
There is one COCA accreditation requirement that will keep the PE alive:
All students must successfully pass COMLEX-USA Level 1, Level 2 CE, and Level 2 PE prior to graduation from an osteopathic medical school.
If COCA would permanently eliminate the PE requirement for graduation, I think it might lead to the death of the PE exam.

COCA seems more health conscious than NBOME about the COVID pandemic.
COCA meeting in April is a Zoom meeting;
April 16-18, 2021 | Teleconference
The Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) will meet via Zoom April 16 – 18, 2021. The non-voting agenda will be posted 30 days before the meeting.
The open session portion of the meeting will be open to the public and broadcast in a non-interactive, live stream webinar format. The Zoom registration link will be posted 30 days before the meeting. The executive session portions of the meeting will be closed to the public.
osteopathic.org

COCA Meetings

COCA reviews site visit reports, change requests and other items pertaining to the accreditation of osteopathic medical schools during its meetings.
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org

The NBOME in April is planning to resume full scale in person PE testing.
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Joining this zoom meeting and making comments in the public sessions would be good recourse for us.
 
Flood these twitters.


Conshohocken Borough (@ConshyBorough)

Chicago Public Health (@chipublichealth)

@VAArk (county manager and MD of Montgomery county PA where conshy is)

Lori Lightfoot, mayor of chicago.


Gimple really doesn't care. But people who get voted in just might listen if enough people raise their voices.
 
msnbc2020 said:
I think you have to ask to be on the agenda to make comments. Maybe SOMA could ask to get on the agenda.
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SOMA is completely inept. The longer we entertain the illusion that they have any ability at all to change the outcome of these situations, the more frequently we will find ourselves in those very situations.
 
msnbc2020 said:
No. Most schools require passing PE to graduate is not correct.
All schools require passing PE to graduate to meet COCA accreditation (except for this year when the test has been unavailable since last spring),
There is one COCA accreditation requirement that will keep the PE alive:
All students must successfully pass COMLEX-USA Level 1, Level 2 CE, and Level 2 PE prior to graduation from an osteopathic medical school.
If COCA would permanently eliminate the PE requirement for graduation, I think it might lead to the death of the PE exam.

COCA seems more health conscious than NBOME about the COVID pandemic.
COCA meeting in April is a Zoom meeting;
April 16-18, 2021 | Teleconference
The Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) will meet via Zoom April 16 – 18, 2021. The non-voting agenda will be posted 30 days before the meeting.
The open session portion of the meeting will be open to the public and broadcast in a non-interactive, live stream webinar format. The Zoom registration link will be posted 30 days before the meeting. The executive session portions of the meeting will be closed to the public.
osteopathic.org

COCA Meetings

COCA reviews site visit reports, change requests and other items pertaining to the accreditation of osteopathic medical schools during its meetings.
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org

The NBOME in April is planning to resume full scale in person PE testing.
Click to expand...
So are you saying DO schools do or dont require PE to graduate or you only need PE to practice in certain states
 
msnbc2020 said:
COCA says you need PE to graduate. 2021 is an exception and COCA has waived the PE requirement for Class of 2021 only. Licensure is a separate issue and should not be conflated with graduation.
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Hopefully by the time I graduate in 2022 itll be gone. Def gonna not sign up until very last minute in the spring of 2022 in case that happens
 
Deecee2DO said:
Hopefully by the time I graduate in 2022 itll be gone. Def gonna not sign up until very last minute in the spring of 2022 in case that happens
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Don’t worry. There will be an upgraded Comlex PE for the new kids. Bigger, more inclusive, longer, and moar expensive. It is the way.
 
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