admission bias

[desler]

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Can you show me something in writing or is this statement based completely on your gut feeling (i.e. worthless)?

Based on logic, sir. Why is UCSF 50% asian 15% white?


Either:

A) UCSF is biased against white students.

B) Applicant pool has a similar ratio.

C) Asians perform better than whites.

I say B, but considering your replies, I think you'd say A, although you'll never admit it.

 

[desler]

oops

 

[SHC1984]

Based on logic, sir. Why is UCSF 50% asian 15% white?


Either:

A) UCSF is biased against white students.

B) Applicant pool has a similar ratio.

C) Asians perform better than whites.

I say B, but considering your replies, I think you'd say A, although you'll never admit it.

You're both wrong it's C)

 

[Passion4Sci]

Definitely C. Although in retrospect, C should be A, since A is the grade the asians get, and C is what us caucasians get. Get it? Asian, Caucasian? Man I should go into stand-up comedy.

And don't call me sir. I work for a living.

 

[drjmariesegars]

Based on logic, sir. Why is UCSF 50% asian 15% white?


Either:

A) UCSF is biased against white students.

B) Applicant pool has a similar ratio.

C) Asians perform better than whites.

I say B, but considering your replies, I think you'd say A, although you'll never admit it.

C has a lot to do with standardized testing bias...which exists actually. I know it does in the SATs.

 

[drjmariesegars]

Definitely C. Although in retrospect, C should be A, since A is the grade the asians get, and C is what us caucasians get. Get it? Asian, Caucasian? Man I should go into stand-up comedy.

And don't call me sir. I work for a living.

That is definitely the best joke on this board in a while. lol

 

[desler]

C has a lot to do with standardized testing bias...which exists actually. I know it does in the SATs.

How are standardized tests biased? How are the SATs biased?

UCSF doesn't base admissions off of any standardized tests so I don't see how that's relevant either.

 

[Passion4Sci]

How are standardized tests biased? How are the SATs biased?

UCSF doesn't base admissions off of any standardized tests so I don't see how that's relevant either.

Standardizing test bias runs in several veins and its impact is more or less hard to determine, long term, but this USA Today article can shed a little light on the subject.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-06-28-standardized-tests_x.htm

Here's one example from the study conducted on standardized testing and how it can be biased against people of non-WASP backgrounds.

I remember one question that showed a picture of a couch on a porch and asked, 'What doesn't fit?' " she says. "I started laughing," she says. "The way I grew up, everyone had a couch outside.

But, you're right, this subject is not cogent to UCSF's admissions, since they don't use any standardized tests, like the PCAT as a metric for its admissions.

 

[diastole]

I'm convinced the verbal part of the PCAT had socio-economic bias. If I had more money to go out to restaurants more often, I might have known the greek food items on the exam. And the Italian pastas.

 

[SHC1984]

C has a lot to do with standardized testing bias...which exists actually. I know it does in the SATs.

Wouldn't the bias favor Causasians?

 

[drjmariesegars]

Wouldn't the bias favor Causasians?

See I've seen research that says Asians are the standard...not that I buy into it. lol

 

[drjmariesegars]

How are standardized tests biased? How are the SATs biased?

UCSF doesn't base admissions off of any standardized tests so I don't see how that's relevant either.

I wasn't talking about UCSF, I was talking about admission criteria and the bias that possibly exist, the opening topic of the board. Although some of the students and alumni might not agree, UCSF is NOT the only school with enough merit to discuss.

 

[desler]

See I've seen research that says Asians are the standard...not that I buy into it. lol

So let me get this straight, "C) Asians perform better than whites" because standardized tests have some questions that only Asians would know. 😕

Tests like the SATs are under extreme scrutiny to be fair and unbiased. If it was biased, why would this country use it for so long. And even if it was biased, why would they give Asians the advantage?

Furthermore Passion4Sci, the point of that article is that MOST standardized tests are unbiased, however there can be few mistakes. The article brings up one biased question from some obscure standardized test in Iowa called "Iowa Tests for Basic Skills." This is not only weak support for the "standardized bias" claim, but also irrelevant because any credible school would never use a test that is known to be biased for admissions criteria.

The bottom line is, don't discredit an entire population of hard-working students by saying they had some advantage when it came to standardized testing, because they didn't.

 

[Passion4Sci]

The bottom line is, don't discredit an entire population of hard-working students by saying they had some advantage when it came to standardized testing, because they didn't.

You're talking about whities here, right?

 

[Namishin]

If anything, there is reverse discrimination against Asians, more so than whites. There is data out there that shows that Asians with higher academics are refused entry to colleges of their choices more often than whites and there are four dental schools in the U.S. that will not even accept Asians. If anyone requires a source, I will be happy to look up the information again although I request you do your own research first.

 

[SHC1984]

See I've seen research that says Asians are the standard...not that I buy into it. lol

Really?? I didn't know that! I guess you learn something everyday. I always figured that standardize exams favors whites b/c they are the majority. Asians are the smallest minority group, so I figure they are the ones left in the cold. I am Asian and I always feel the math sections on any American standardize exams were too easy maybe thats what the research means? The SAT Math section was a joke.

 

[SHC1984]

If anything, there is reverse discrimination against Asians, more so than whites. There is data out there that shows that Asians with higher academics are refused entry to colleges of their choices more often than whites and there are four dental schools in the U.S. that will not even accept Asians. If anyone requires a source, I will be happy to look up the information again although I request you do your own research first.

Really? When I was in dental school half of my class was Asian. 🙂

 

[Haleyzx]

If anything, there is reverse discrimination against Asians, more so than whites. There is data out there that shows that Asians with higher academics are refused entry to colleges of their choices more often than whites and there are four dental schools in the U.S. that will not even accept Asians. If anyone requires a source, I will be happy to look up the information again although I request you do your own research first.

is that even legal?

 

[drjmariesegars]

So let me get this straight, "C) Asians perform better than whites" because standardized tests have some questions that only Asians would know. 😕

Tests like the SATs are under extreme scrutiny to be fair and unbiased. If it was biased, why would this country use it for so long. And even if it was biased, why would they give Asians the advantage?

Furthermore Passion4Sci, the point of that article is that MOST standardized tests are unbiased, however there can be few mistakes. The article brings up one biased question from some obscure standardized test in Iowa called "Iowa Tests for Basic Skills." This is not only weak support for the "standardized bias" claim, but also irrelevant because any credible school would never use a test that is known to be biased for admissions criteria.

The bottom line is, don't discredit an entire population of hard-working students by saying they had some advantage when it came to standardized testing, because they didn't.

No. Not at all..See when I said Asians I meant Asians and whites. I apologize for the lack of clarifications. Practice questions on the SATs if more black people get the answer correct than usual, then the question is not used on the next version of the test. However, if more Asians and white answer it correctly then it is used.

However, a test is just that a TEST. You study and do your personal best, not ethnically best. 🙄

 

[Haleyzx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC_zK16sosw
this short video sums it up the best!!

 

[Deja]

You're talking about whities here, right?

you sounds like an idiot

is that even legal?

it does happen I watched a documentry about it back in high school about cali schools

 

[diastole]

The bottom line is, don't discredit an entire population of hard-working students by saying they had some advantage when it came to standardized testing, because they didn't.

How do you know? The thing about cultural bias is that the people who write the exams aren't doing it on purpose. They just assume that what is their normal is normal for everyone and they have no idea that some people think it is normal to put your couch on the porch or that a kid from the inner city might have more trouble answering an analogy with sailing terms in it. They try to minimize the problem but you have to recognize it before you can fix it.

 

[SHC1984]

No. Not at all..See when I said Asians I meant Asians and whites. I apologize for the lack of clarifications. Practice questions on the SATs if more black people get the answer correct than usual, then the question is not used on the next version of the test. However, if more Asians and white answer it correctly then it is used.

However, a test is just that a TEST. You study and do your personal best, not ethnically best. 🙄

R you sure?? how do you know? I really don't think there is any bias, either you know it or you don't. I took Kaplan for all my standardize exams and it work like a charm every single time. Don't really know what you mean by bias.

 

[diastole]

R you sure?? how do you know? I really don't think there is any bias, either you know it or you don't. I took Kaplan for all my standardize exams and it work like a charm every single time. Don't really know what you mean by bias.

They are talking about cultural bias. Traditionally the WASPy people who wrote the tests just assumed that students know about elements common to their world that might not be the reality for people not raised that way. For example, I believe they used to have questions with sailing terms. Sailboat:regatta as ______________. A student who is lower on the socio-economic scale would have a tougher time answering that question because sailing isn't a part of their world. Imagine the difficulty that you would have if you had to answer an analogy about churros, if you have never even seen one. (On my PCAT, I had one about Greek food.) Certain segments of the population would have a natural advantage with that question. When an advantage is given to students based on their upbringing and not their skills, that is the bias they are talking about.

 

[SHC1984]

They are talking about cultural bias. Traditionally the WASPy people who wrote the tests just assumed that students know about elements common to their world that might not be the reality for people not raised that way. For example, I believe they used to have questions with sailing terms. Sailboat:regatta as ______________. A student who is lower on the socio-economic scale would have a tougher time answering that question because sailing isn't a part of their world. Imagine the difficulty that you would have if you had to answer an analogy about churros, if you have never even seen one. (On my PCAT, I had one about Greek food.) Certain segments of the population would have a natural advantage with that question. When an advantage is given to students based on their upbringing and not their skills, that is the bias they are talking about.

Yeah I heard some people say that before, but that isn't the main reason for poor test results. The main reason for poor test results on verbal reasoning and reading skills is NOT reading!

If you read all your life you will do well on the verbal reasoning and reading sections. (Verbal SAT) The key to doing VERY WELL on the verbal sections on the SAT is by reading when you are a very little kid. It has nothing to do with any "bias". The younger your age is when you start reading the smarter you will be. No joke. All of the most intelligent people in the world have one thing in common, they started reading when they were very little kids.

For example, my sister and I both came to the USA in 1993, neither one of us can speak any English back then. However my younger sister have always LOVE to read. She started reading when she was 4 years old. By age 8 she has her own library in the house! She reads everytime she has a chance and she loves doing crossword puzzles etc. Me on the other hand, hate to read, I hated school (even in high school I never studied b/c I hate it) When I was a kid I just watch TV or go take ballet lessons, I NEVER read anything, and my parents would yell at me but I don't care.

My verbal SAT was a 520, My sister's was a perfect 800. (Her GRE Verbal was also a perfect score and her LSAT score is almost perfect) We grew up in the same enviroment, had the same parents, went to the same high school, parents were always fair, etc. But her score was perfect and my was poor. Why? B/c I was LAZY. No other reason. If I started reading when I was 4 years old like my sister did then I would not have done so poorly. 🙁

Poor test results have less to do with "bias" than it does with a person simply NOT reading when they were kids.

 

[diastole]

Yeah I heard some people say that before, but that isn't the main reason for poor test results. The main reason for poor test results on verbal reasoning and reading skills is NOT reading!

If you read all your life you will do well on the verbal reasoning and reading sections. (Verbal SAT) The key to doing VERY WELL on the verbal sections on the SAT is by reading when you are a very little kid. It has nothing to do with any "bias". The younger your age is when you start reading the smarter you will be. No joke. All of the most intelligent people in the world have one thing in common, they started reading when they were very little kids.

For example, my sister and I both came to the USA in 1993, neither one of us can speak any English back then. However my younger sister have always LOVE to read. She started reading when she was 4 years old. By age 8 she has her own library in the house! She reads everytime she has a chance and she loves doing crossword puzzles etc. Me on the other hand, hate to read, I hated school (even in high school I never studied b/c I hate it) When I was a kid I just watch TV or go take ballet lessons, I NEVER read anything, and my parents would yell at me but I don't care.

My verbal SAT was a 520, My sister's was a perfect 800. (Her GRE Verbal was also a perfect score and her LSAT score is almost perfect) We grew up in the same enviroment, had the same parents, went to the same high school, parents were always fair, etc. But her score was perfect and my was poor. Why? B/c I was LAZY. No other reason. If I started reading when I was 4 years old like my sister did then I would not have done so poorly. 🙁

Poor test results have less to do with "bias" than it does with a person simply NOT reading when they were kids.

I'm not claiming that it accounts for huge differences but I think some does exist. An individual certainly can affect their scores with extra effort. However, when school systems and even whole states celebrate a rise of two points from one school year to the next, cultural bias carries greater weight from that perspective.