Admissions question regarding criminal record - Dui + wet reckless??

[Dataplz]

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[dpmd]

I can't speak for what admission committees and eventually residency and licensing bodies would say but I would have expected someone who got a dui to come away with the idea that they should not drive after any alcohol at all not this two beers nonsense that obviously didn't mean you were safe to drive.

 

[Dataplz]

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[Pluto98]

Not an adcom but I would imagine there would be schools that would take a risk on you. Certainly not all but I would bet some or a few. Worst case scenario, I would go carib or DO because you are likely to do well on step since your issue is not academic in nature. From that point (matching into residency), the reckless driving incident is 15 years behind you and you have shown a good track record in med school.

 

[Dataplz]

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[readmypostsMD]

I'm sure adcoms will have better insight into this, but IMO I feel like its likely that you will not be considered for US MD/DO schools. I don't mean to offend you or make you feel bad especially given how hard you are working and have worked. With 1 DUI years in the past, you may have been fine if your app/stats were great, but having 2 seems to suggest that you didn't learn your lesson and mature. Given the dangers of drunk driving, I think one of the key considerations is that you not only put your life at risk, but you put the lives of others at risk, and did this twice. If I were an adcom, my first thought would be "will he/she take a similar risk and have a beer or 2 at the holiday party before heading back to the wards to treat patients?" In prepping for MMIs, I've seen questions related to alcohol use on the job multiple times.

Despite this, I've seen people with drug-related charges have them wiped from their records and get into US MD schools. I've also seen people be fired from jobs for horrendous reasons, but get into US MD schools after not ever mentioning it in the application. Again, I don't mean to offend you or make you feel bad, but with 2 drunk-driving charges, I can't imagine a school selecting that application over another equally competitive application without such charges. If you have some extraordinary accomplishment/feature on your app (military, started a nonprofit, strong legacy), then maybe, but I'm not sure.

 

[Seihai]

You should consider alternative career paths. A demonstrated (and criminal) lack of judgment led you to this point, and I hope you won't make the mistake of going Caribbean to further highlight poor decision making skills.

You saying that you'd be "willing to consider DO" implies that you think DO schools would somehow be more understanding. You're wrong on that account, and I can't see you being accepted to any medical schools in the US for a long time, if ever.

Going to the Caribbean is an option if your goal is to (maybe) graduate with a medical degree with substantial debt and still never practice medicine, since this kind of record would stop you from getting any good residency placements and may even present an obstacle to licensure.

Adcoms can clarify on this, but I sincerely don't think pursuing medicine is a viable option for you at this point.

 

[deleted480308]

I can’t recommend spending the time/money on med school apps because if anyone on the committees to schools or residency thought like I did you wouldn’t get in. It’s possible you get lucky.

Do not go to the carribbean. Just don’t

And never drink again, you’ve now been caught risking lives twice whicj means you did more than that. It needs to stop

 

[dpmd]

I can’t recommend spending the time/money on med school apps because if anyone on the committees to schools or residency thought like I did you wouldn’t get in. It’s possible you get lucky.

Do not go to the carribbean. Just don’t

And never drink again, you’ve now been caught risking lives twice whicj means you did more than that. It needs to stop

Maybe if he was in a recovery program for a while and demonstrated a serious change of heart and mindset I might view it differently.

 

[Moko]

Having two separate incidents multiple years apart is concerning. Sometimes when a significant amount of time has passed, an incident can be overlooked as that of someone being young and stupid. In your case, your last incident occurred in your early thirties. It will be a very uphill battle, and your application will need to offer something substantial beyond that of other applicants to be even considered. Just my thoughts

 

[TSHJB302]

I think you should speak with schools directly on this situation. Ask for their advice and what they think you can do to improve your chances, if anything.

 

[deleted969405]

From the time I got my dui at 21 yrs old I made the decision to never do anything that dangerous/stupid again. On the occasion that I drank, I followed the two-beer rule, meaning that you are okay to drive if you have only had two beers. This was the common practice at the time (and maybe still is?).

I like how you come up with a 2-beer "rule" and make it sound like this is actually a thing. I personally have never heard of it. And it definitely shows ownership when you downplay the second crime with that 2-beer policy as if its a common thing lol. The only time I hear that is when a completely hammered patient comes to the ER with a cop claiming they only had 2 beers lmaoo. I personally don't think you were trying to make an excuse with that statement, but I'm just telling you how it reads and how an adcom may interpret your wording.

From this point I have never and will never drink anything and then drive.

How about you either never drink again or never drive again

Hi everyone. I’m posting this looking for a little clarity on my situation. This exact situation hasn’t been posted about before. I’m hoping that people familiar with medical school admissions, residency admissions, and state licensing could weigh in (adcoms or student adcoms maybe?)

I have heard the consensus that a dui/dwi on your record is not going to block a person from getting into medical school, given that years have gone by and the person is remorseful (learned from their lesson). I have also heard that two dui/dwis on a person’s record is a reason to find a completely new career path because this shows a pattern of irresponsible behavior (not sure if a person could become any type of provider, dentist, etc. at that point).
I guess I fall in a grey area in between these two situations.

What are the career possibilities for a person with a dui at 21 yrs old and a (wet) reckless driving conviction 10 years later? I am an older/returning student so it’s been about 7 years since the reckless driving charge. The reckless driving conviction was pled down from an original charge of dui for a 0.08 bac. I know fully well that explaining the detailed circumstances of a conviction can easily be interpreted as making excuses, so please understand that I would not disclose details unless directly asked by someone in admissions (and even then cautiously). I will give a description here, but only to fully inform the reader, not to make excuses. Let me start by saying I wish I could go back in time. All I can do is learn from my mistake.

From the time I got my dui at 21 yrs old I made the decision to never do anything that dangerous/stupid again. On the occasion that I drank, I followed the two-beer rule, meaning that you are okay to drive if you have only had two beers. This was the common practice at the time (and maybe still is?). I believed that this was being responsible. Many years later I was pulled over for driving above the speed limit and asked to take a breathalyzer. I had had two beers that evening, definitely did not feel inebriated, and felt safe to drive. I agreed to the breathalyzer and was shocked to produce a 0.08 bac. I was charged with a dui, which was reduced to a reckless driving charge because the breathalyzers have a certain inaccuracy (this is what my lawyer told me – his words). I paid my fines, did my probation and forfeited driving in the state for a period of time. I have gone over many times in my head how I got to this point. I hadn’t thought about it at the time, but the beers I had were craft beers. I don’t even know what alcohol percentage they were. A higher percentage combined with not eating first may been what put me at the legal limit. Not keeping track of these things was stupid and reckless on my part. From this point I have never and will never drink anything and then drive.

I may be able to get the reckless driving conviction or arrest sealed, but maybe not. I understand that this would only allow me to avoid disclosure if the application prompt said “do not disclose if the case was sealed”. Otherwise I of course would explain all misdemeanors (briefly) as asked by the prompt of whatever application I was on. I realize that a person reviewing my details for possible admission may have context or may not, they may only see the arrest record and convictions 10 years apart.

I am asking logistically, what should I do? How much detail/context does one disclose? Should I forget about being a medical doctor altogether (or any type of provider even)? Alternatively, does this mean that I should apply only to schools in the lowest/lower tiers although I will probably (after MCAT) have decent Lizzy M (prob 72-80) and wedgedawg ARS (prob 80-87) scores? Basically, where does this leave me?
Thanks in advance for reading this (sorry for the length) and for any advice.

On a more serious note, I think your chances for MD/DO in the US are shot especially in this day and age where DUIs are rightfully considered more and more taboo, at least more so than it was 20 years ago. Carib is still an option, but I'm sure you've heard of the problems they have down there as well. If you are OK with IM I don't think you have a terrible chance of matching from there

 

[Goro]

Not an adcom but I would imagine there would be schools that would take a risk on you. Certainly not all but I would bet some or a few. Worst case scenario, I would go carib or DO because you are likely to do well on step since your issue is not academic in nature. From that point (matching into residency), the reckless driving incident is 15 years behind you and you have shown a good track record in med school.

Why do you think that DO would be more forgiving of this than MD schools?

Cutting people slack on their stat does not mean we cut slack on bad choice making.

OP, I can't sugar coat this. Your medical career is over.

Uou didn't learn from your first mistake, and drivers like you kill families like mine. I'd reject you outright.

Emotion aside, you are facing two different thought processes from Adcoms:

Is this someone we want in our class?
Why take this person when we have so many others who haven't done this.?

 

[Dataplz]

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[Dataplz]

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[deleted969405]

I respect everyone’s input and it has been in line with what I was anticipating. What I am trying to determine is if this sentiment is shared by individuals who are adcoms, student adcoms, folks in residency admissions, or to hear from individuals who have been in this position. I am trying to determine a course based on the input from individuals with direct experience. I am definitely not defending my past nor making excuses. I am remorseful and have taken steps to make sure this is something that never happens again. I am aware of a few folks on SDN who are adcoms but fear that PMing them is not appropriate. Is anyone aware of etiquette around that?

I think as others have mentioned, most schools will deny you based on your criminal history (after going through this process, I can honestly say it only takes one think that doesn't look appealing for schools to deny you, and it doesn't even have to be a red flag. Unfortunately, you have 2 red flags at this point, and this is before you have even applied).

However, whether people want to admit it or not, a chunk of this process is about luck. Maybe the person reading your file has a relative who had a DUI (or multiple), sought counseling, and became a better man because of the DUI, so they may be more likely to overlook your criminal record. That being said, that's why no one one here, adcoms, accepted med students, or premed students, can give you a 100% definite answer. It's a tough spot to be in for sure

 

[deleted1001426]

I respect everyone’s input and it has been in line with what I was anticipating. What I am trying to determine is if this sentiment is shared by individuals who are adcoms, student adcoms, folks in residency admissions, or to hear from individuals who have been in this position. I am trying to determine a course based on the input from individuals with direct experience. I am definitely not defending my past nor making excuses. I am remorseful and have taken steps to make sure this is something that never happens again. I am aware of a few folks on SDN who are adcoms but fear that PMing them is not appropriate. Is anyone aware of etiquette around that?

no need to pm, youve had 2 straight up respond here... but yeah my opinion isnt worth anymore than yours or anyone else's here but I just cant think of a situation where a school would take you unless the rest of your app is absolutely spectacular over someone else who has similar accomplishments/ stats but without the dui. 2 duis show not only poor decision making but an utter disregard for the lives of others..2 traits which imo are unforgivable in anyone who hopes to be a medical professional

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Odd, two beers is typically below .08 (seems I'm the only person in this thread who's heard of this, you're not alone), but you're right that high abv beers plus your gender/weight can affect it. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any recourse for two incidents of so similar nature with so much time between them. Definitely sucks, but if it makes you feel better even one DUI is extremely hard to overcome, so it's not like you were in the clear and screwed yourself. You were already 5 feet deep in the proverbial grave. Best of luck with your application (if you apply) or whatever else you do!

 

[dpmd]

Odd, two beers is typically below .08 (seems I'm the only person in this thread who's heard of this, you're not alone), but you're right that high abv beers plus your gender/weight can affect it. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any recourse for two incidents of so similar nature with so much time between them. Definitely sucks, but if it makes you feel better even one DUI is extremely hard to overcome, so it's not like you were in the clear and screwed yourself. You were already 5 feet deep in the proverbial grave. Best of luck with your application (if you apply) or whatever else you do!

One to two drinks per hour will generally keep someone under the legal limit depending on gender, weight, food, and many other factors. However one drink is 5 ounces of 12% wine, 12 ounces of 5% beer, or 1.5 ounces of 40% spirits. Many people are drinking more than this and calling it one drink. So while people certainly might safely drive after one or two of the servings above given enough time to metabolize it, the only definite safe amount is zero. That is what anyone who has had a dui should do forevermore because they have already demonstrated the inability to assess their safety for driving.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

One to two drinks per hour will generally keep someone under the legal limit depending on gender, weight, food, and many other factors. However one drink is 5 ounces of 12% wine, 12 ounces of 5% beer, or 1.5 ounces of 40% spirits. Many people are drinking more than this and calling it one drink. So while people certainly might safely drive after one or two of the servings above given enough time to metabolize it, the only definite safe amount is zero. That is what anyone who has had a dui should do forevermore because they have already demonstrated the inability to assess their safety for driving.

Yeah typically people screw up when they drink something like two lemon drop martinis (two standard units of alcohol each) and call it two drinks, when in reality its four. Beer is usually safer, but high abv can be tricky. Two 7.5 percent alcohol beers = 3 beers. I personally think .08 is too high, I've played around with my friends to-go breathalyzer and at .06 I felt too tipsy to drive.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think as others have mentioned, most schools will deny you based on your criminal history (after going through this process, I can honestly say it only takes one think that doesn't look appealing for schools to deny you, and it doesn't even have to be a red flag. Unfortunately, you have 2 red flags at this point, and this is before you have even applied).

However, whether people want to admit it or not, a chunk of this process is about luck. Maybe the person reading your file has a relative who had a DUI (or multiple), sought counseling, and became a better man because of the DUI, so they may be more likely to overlook your criminal record. That being said, that's why no one one here, adcoms, accepted med students, or premed students, can give you a 100% definite answer. It's a tough spot to be in for sure

While there is certainly an element of luck in the process, it's not as random as you make it sound. One sympathetic reader of a file won't do anyone any good in a process that involves a committee, where the committee has policies and requirements. Based on the feedback provided by the adcoms, this sounds like a DOA application. It sucks, but at least OP received an honest answer before investing time and money.

That said, the advice to reach out directly to schools of interest to feel them out (assuming you could get an honest answer from them), is probably a better strategy than hoping to get "lucky" after making such a significant investment, assuming OP is not totally discouraged at this point.

 

[deleted1001426]

Odd, two beers is typically below .08 (seems I'm the only person in this thread who's heard of this, you're not alone)

We’ve all heard of it before. It’s just that everybody else realizes that judging your level of intoxication solely off of the number of fluid ounces consumed is flawed beyond belief. A 250lb male who consumes 32 ounces of coors light will have a drastically different bac than someone who is 110 lbs and consumes the same quantity of dog fish head’s 120minute ipa (side note, if you haven’t tried this and like ipas I highly recommend it).

 

[ChymeofPassion]

We’ve all heard of it before. It’s just that everybody else realizes that judging your level of intoxication solely off of the number of fluid ounces consumed is flawed beyond belief. A 250lb male who consumes 32 ounces of coors light will have a drastically different bac than someone who is 110 lbs and consumes the same quantity of dog fish head’s 120minute ipa (side note, if you haven’t tried this and like ipas I highly recommend it).

Mostly responding to pchemdestr8's comment.

 

[Seihai]

I was responding to a person's post who said that they thought that this was the case. I personally have no idea about which schools, if any, I should apply to. It sounds like I should consider other careers. I sincerely thank you for your response.

Of the people who have posted in this thread, both Goro and Moko are adcoms.

 

[deleted969405]

Of the people who have posted in this thread, both Goro and Moko are adcoms.

and I will be a future adcom so I think my opinion should be held highly as well

 

[proudofmykids]

Having two separate incidents multiple years apart is concerning. Sometimes when a significant amount of time has passed, an incident can be overlooked as that of someone being young and stupid. In your case, your last incident occurred in your early thirties. It will be a very uphill battle, and your application will need to offer something substantial beyond that of other applicants to be even considered. Just my thoughts

@Dataplz
For a moment forget the back story on the second incident.
Is the wreckless driving on record specifically as Wet or alcohol related? (Varies by state)

If not, go forward, 25mph over limit isn’t that uncommon, is by definition often cited as Wreckless Driving, and would fully obscure further details. Thusly still be considered a moving violation conviction.

If Wet / Alcohol is part of the record, I’d say almost no chance of admissions, and even harder chance for residency and licensing later.

If not wet, the single DUI will be of focus and specifically need to be addressed as 10years of awareness and growth.

 

[KnightDoc]

@Dataplz
For a moment forget the back story on the second incident.
Is the wreckless driving on record specifically as Wet or alcohol related? (Varies by state)

If not, go forward, 25mph over limit isn’t that uncommon, is by definition often cited as Wreckless Driving, and would fully obscure further details. Thusly still be considered a moving violation conviction.

If Wet / Alcohol is part of the record, I’d say almost no chance of admissions, and even harder chance for residency and licensing later.

If not wet, the single DUI will be of focus and specifically need to be addressed as 10years of awareness and growth.

Great idea -- lie by omission and hope not to get caught.

 

[Sephirakra]

Great idea -- lie by omission and hope not to get caught.

And again when applying for residencies, licenses, DEA numbers...

 

[jgar26]

Hi everyone. I’m posting this looking for a little clarity on my situation. This exact situation hasn’t been posted about before. I’m hoping that people familiar with medical school admissions, residency admissions, and state licensing could weigh in (adcoms or student adcoms maybe?)

I have heard the consensus that a dui/dwi on your record is not going to block a person from getting into medical school, given that years have gone by and the person is remorseful (learned from their lesson). I have also heard that two dui/dwis on a person’s record is a reason to find a completely new career path because this shows a pattern of irresponsible behavior (not sure if a person could become any type of provider, dentist, etc. at that point).
I guess I fall in a grey area in between these two situations.

What are the career possibilities for a person with a dui at 21 yrs old and a (wet) reckless driving conviction 10 years later? I am an older/returning student so it’s been about 7 years since the reckless driving charge. The reckless driving conviction was pled down from an original charge of dui for a 0.08 bac. I know fully well that explaining the detailed circumstances of a conviction can easily be interpreted as making excuses, so please understand that I would not disclose details unless directly asked by someone in admissions (and even then cautiously). I will give a description here, but only to fully inform the reader, not to make excuses. Let me start by saying I wish I could go back in time. All I can do is learn from my mistake.

From the time I got my dui at 21 yrs old I made the decision to never do anything that dangerous/stupid again. On the occasion that I drank, I followed the two-beer rule, meaning that you are okay to drive if you have only had two beers. This was the common practice at the time (and maybe still is?). I believed that this was being responsible. Many years later I was pulled over for driving above the speed limit and asked to take a breathalyzer. I had had two beers that evening, definitely did not feel inebriated, and felt safe to drive. I agreed to the breathalyzer and was shocked to produce a 0.08 bac. I was charged with a dui, which was reduced to a reckless driving charge because the breathalyzers have a certain inaccuracy (this is what my lawyer told me – his words). I paid my fines, did my probation and forfeited driving in the state for a period of time. I have gone over many times in my head how I got to this point. I hadn’t thought about it at the time, but the beers I had were craft beers. I don’t even know what alcohol percentage they were. A higher percentage combined with not eating first may been what put me at the legal limit. Not keeping track of these things was stupid and reckless on my part. From this point I have never and will never drink anything and then drive.

I may be able to get the reckless driving conviction or arrest sealed, but maybe not. I understand that this would only allow me to avoid disclosure if the application prompt said “do not disclose if the case was sealed”. Otherwise I of course would explain all misdemeanors (briefly) as asked by the prompt of whatever application I was on. I realize that a person reviewing my details for possible admission may have context or may not, they may only see the arrest record and convictions 10 years apart.

I am asking logistically, what should I do? How much detail/context does one disclose? Should I forget about being a medical doctor altogether (or any type of provider even)? Alternatively, does this mean that I should apply only to schools in the lowest/lower tiers although I will probably (after MCAT) have decent Lizzy M (prob 72-80) and wedgedawg ARS (prob 80-87) scores? Basically, where does this leave me?
Thanks in advance for reading this (sorry for the length) and for any advice.

I would honestly not take anyones advice here who is an applying student. I’m sure they are well intentioned but they simply have no clue. Talk to a lawyer who has dealt with issues like this with state licensing boards to get a better informed opinion of your situation. Then I would go to Med school and have a frank discussion with someone on the Adcom committee. It doesn’t have to be a school you are applying to. Get a lawyer and see what if anything can be sealed. Mistakes are made and noone should pay for life for a mistake they made many years prior. Im not absolving you’re actions or making judgments because its not my right. If you have improved your character and want to be a doctor there will be some schools that will give you a chance if your other profile is competitive. If you want to be a doctor then you will likely be willing to do anything to achieve this goal including going overseas. If you want it bad enough then get people who can give you INFORMED opinions and go from there. Good luck.

 

[Tenk]

You probably have a near zero percent chance of becoming a board certified practicing physician. Best to explore other options.

 

[deleted962973]

I would honestly not take anyones advice here who is an applying student. I’m sure they are well intentioned but they simply have no clue. Talk to a lawyer who has dealt with issues like this with state licensing boards to get a better informed opinion of your situation. Then I would go to Med school and have a frank discussion with someone on the Adcom committee. It doesn’t have to be a school you are applying to. Get a lawyer and see what if anything can be sealed. Mistakes are made and noone should pay for life for a mistake they made many years prior. Im not absolving you’re actions or making judgments because its not my right. If you have improved your character and want to be a doctor there will be some schools that will give you a chance if your other profile is competitive. If you want to be a doctor then you will likely be willing to do anything to achieve this goal including going overseas. If you want it bad enough then get people who can give you INFORMED opinions and go from there. Good luck.

Multiple people who have responded are adcom members or practicing physicians.

 

[deleted1001426]

Multiple people who have responded are adcom members or practicing physicians.

It also doesn’t take an adcom or admissions expert to state with a moderate degree of certainty that 2 duis, spaced out by a decent amount of time indicates a degree of poor decision making and lack of self control that most schools wouldn’t be able to overlook. I assume most adcoms will realize that OP is either the most unlucky person in the world who got pulled over the only 2 times that he drove while inebriated or this is a chronic issue and it’s only a matter of time before his “2 beers” turns into 12 and a poor family driving home from dinner gets rammed off of the road. Which scenario sounds more likely?

this might sound melodramatic but honestly duis are inexcusable, completely avoidable and far too often are they treated as some small indiscretion when in reality the difference between a dui and manslaughter just comes down to luck

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I dont disagree with the great majority of comments or advice. It will be a risky adventure to apply to med school. If applying for license or boards and it over 10 yrs since the incident, I think things could work out for you. It's a big risk

Lastly, I hope that the rabid response by many to the DUI, would be equally rabid if the OP was driving under the influence of cannabis or worse, texting while driving. I believe texting or distracted driving is worse as there are no drugs inhibiting their decisions. The decision to be distracted is purely on them. I cant tell you how many times I had to honk at an idiot drifting into my lane while the were looking at their phone.

 

[deleted1001426]

Lastly, I hope that the rabid response by many to the DUI, would be equally rabid if the OP was driving under the influence of cannabis or worse, texting while driving. I believe texting or distracted driving is worse as there are no drugs inhibiting their decisions. The decision to be distracted is purely on them. I cant tell you how many times I had to honk at an idiot drifting into my lane while the were looking at their phone

A dui is a dui, doesn’t matter if it’s alcohol, marijuana or any other altering substance. I’ll admit that I don’t take as much issue with texting as I do with dui solely based on the fact that people can selectively choose when they are “impaired” if texting whereas with a dui it doesn’t matter if you’re on an empty country road, stuck in slow moving traffic or flying down the autobahn at 90mph. That being said I definitely don’t approve of either. For whatever reason most of our society has decided that a multitude of forms of distracted driving are not only permissible but the norm and I’d implore anyone who doesn’t take issue with it to spend a few months emting. First time you see a car wrapped around a telephone pole with the passenger ejected from the front windshield you’ll change your mind

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Statistics
Most people are afraid of drivers that use a cell phone on the road. In terms of fatal car accidents, the overall death toll caused by cell phones was 3,285 in 2016 while those by drunk driving was 10,497.Sep 21, 2019
Carsurance › blog › texting-and-dri...
24 Shocking Texting and Driving Statistics (2019 Update)

So in 2016 over 3,000 people were killed from texting while driving. Over 10,000 killed by DUI. So texting kills about 1/3 as many people as DUI. Just reinforcing my comment about texting while driving. These people are just as dead as those killed by DUI. Just trying to make people aware about the dangers of texting and maybe they might take a less cavalier attitude toward it. The penalties in my state for this is a summary offense and about a $100 fine.

 

[deleted1001426]

The penalties in my state for this is about a $100 fine.

Which is absolutely ridiculous.. I was fined more for driving 55 in a 50 lol. Although my state might be worse. You can’t be pulled over for texting while driving unless you are concurrently violating another traffic law, in which csse you can be cited for both

honestly, between texting, eating, shaving, fiddling with the center console or whatever other things we’ve all seen people doing during our morning commutes, its a miracle most of these people make it to work everyday

 

[DNAJB6]

There is so much fixation on BAC in this thread. In many states the drinking limit is merely the point at which the law presumes you are legally intoxicated. It is possible, in my state at least, to be charged with a DUI at any level BAC > .00 even though the legal "limit" is .08 if the police officer says the right things. The only safe amount is none at all.