Advanced Organic Chemical Synthesis

[FutureERDoc16]

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Next semester I will begin my junior year as a Chemistry major/pre-medicine, and I wanted some advice in course selection. Last semester, I did fairly well in Organic I, and currently I'm performing at the same level if not slightly better in Organic II. In first semester organic, I finished with a high A, which numerically was around a 98. This semester, I have a new professor (who is much more difficult) and he curves his class averages to a B-. For the first exam, the class average was a 68, and I scored a 94 without the curve. On the last exam, I scored a 100, and the class average was a 56. Seeing that I've f*ed up in many of the science courses I took freshman year (currently my BCPM GPA is a 3.45), I was really interested in taking Advanced Organic Chemical Synthesis, which is a graduate course taught at my school. Undergrads are allowed to take it with instructor permission, and by taking it, chemistry majors are allowed to complete a thesis and graduate with honors. The instructor for the grad course said he would grant me permission as long as I maintained my "high A".

I just wanted to get some input. If I did well in this course, how positive would that be for my application? Or what if I did not do too well (B or C)? And lastly, would this course be counted towards my undergraduate or graduate GPA?

Also, I'm a URM (black male) at a very highly ranked university...if that means anything.

 

[SpacemanSpifff]

Next semester I will begin my junior year as a Chemistry major/pre-medicine, and I wanted some advice in course selection. Last semester, I did fairly well in Organic I, and currently I'm performing at the same level if not slightly better in Organic II. In first semester organic, I finished with a high A, which numerically was around a 98. This semester, I have a new professor (who is much more difficult) and he curves his class averages to a B-. For the first exam, the class average was a 68, and I scored a 94 without the curve. On the last exam, I scored a 100, and the class average was a 56. Seeing that I've f*ed up in many of the science courses I took freshman year (currently my BCPM GPA is a 3.45), I was really interested in taking Advanced Organic Chemical Synthesis, which is a graduate course taught at my school. Undergrads are allowed to take it with instructor permission, and by taking it, chemistry majors are allowed to complete a thesis and graduate with honors. The instructor for the grad course said he would grant me permission as long as I maintained my "high A".

I just wanted to get some input. If I did well in this course, how positive would that be for my application? Or what if I did not do too well (B or C)? And lastly, would this course be counted towards my undergraduate or graduate GPA?

Also, I'm a URM (black male) at a very highly ranked university...if that means anything.

I would say do it if you are interested! Taking the advanced course would be an opportunity to show you can handle upper division sciences after the previous blunders you mentioned. If taking the course allows you to receive additional honors, that's just a bonus.

 

[neuro nephrons]

It sounds like death on a stick personally. But if you are interested, go for it.

 

[mehc012]

Synthetic Organic is a great course...take it if you like Orgo and don't mind being trampled by really interesting stuff! Not sure why it's considered a grad course at your school (the analogous version was only a 300-level at my UG, and a large portion of the majors did a thesis project for honors), but then every class and every school is different.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

Take it!! I'm taking a similar class spring term (which starts in a little over a week) though at my school it's taught as mixed grad/ug. It's the class I'm most looking fwd to. And lots of profs at my school say that if you like organic, then synthesis is where it's at. It sounds like a great idea in your situation and the thesis option is cool too. Enjoy, sounds like you'll Rick it!

 

[riddler]

I just wanted to get some input. If I did well in this course, how positive would that be for my application? Or what if I did not do too well (B or C)? And lastly, would this course be counted towards my undergraduate or graduate GPA?

The fact that you did well in (or didn't do well in) that course specifically won't matter much, if at all. What will matter is the boost/reduction in GPA as a result of that course. I believe that the course would be listed on AMCAS towards your undergraduate GPA. The opportunity to write a thesis is also appealing and could be a nice addition to your application.

So, take the course if you find it interesting and are relatively confident that you will get an A!

 

[Espadaleader]

Nice to see another black male here. Listen, if you like the course, ask for permission to audit. Do not risk your GPA by voluntarily taking a graduate course. You are on track to an excellent
medical school. Just stay focused.

 

[CyberMaxx]

OP, It looks like you can definitely handle the chemistry concepts involved in synthesis, the question you should ask yourself though is how much do you like organic lab. We have a synthesis course at my UG as well, though is 300 level and every chem major is required to take it, and it is a very difficult course. Although it is also a good course, the problem with synthesis at my UG is that it eats up all of your time. We were all in the lab about 5 - 6 days a week (yes we went in on Saturdays 🙁 ). So, all this is to say, while I'm sure you can handle synthesis, you might want to consider how much time it will take up, and how much you already like or don't like organic lab before making a decision.

 

[JGimpel]

People packed meals and snacks for the final. They brought sleeping bags in too.
Professor: Please note that you have 2 pages of questions and 32 blank pages behind them. You can take as long as you want to complete the exam, but there is a class in here at 8AM tomorrow.

Mic drop.

DO NOT TAKE THIS COURSE! It will not help you with your application any more than your great grades in OChem. Your MCAT will not have any items dealing with complex or even moderate level retrosynthesis. If you want to prove something, go as high as you can go in the Biological sciences, especially whatever your school teaches after Biochemistry and that may help you more than anything beyond OChem. At any rate, this course would most likely be counted as undergrad credit, similar to a PostBacc grade, since you have not graduated and are not taking it as part of a formal graduate degree curriculum.

 

[CyberMaxx]

People packed meals and snacks for the final. They brought sleeping bags in too.
Professor: Please note that you have 2 pages of questions and 32 blank pages behind them. You can take as long as you want to complete the exam, but there is a class in here at 8AM tomorrow.

Is this for real?!! 😱 Wow, JGimpel, that is hardcore.

...or are you being sarcastic...

 

[mehc012]

OP, It looks like you can definitely handle the chemistry concepts involved in synthesis, the question you should ask yourself though is how much do you like organic lab. We have a synthesis course at my UG as well, though is 300 level and every chem major is required to take it, and it is a very difficult course. Although it is also a good course, the problem with synthesis at my UG is that it eats up all of your time. We were all in the lab about 5 - 6 days a week (yes we went in on Saturdays 🙁 ). So, all this is to say, while I'm sure you can handle synthesis, you might want to consider how much time it will take up, and how much you already like or don't like organic lab before making a decision.

That is a good point to consider...even at my school, where chem labs were grandfathered in so they were from 1-5 every week (Bio, physics, etc were only allowed to be 1-4), Synthetic routinely ran over by an hour at least. THAT'S NOT INCLUDING ANALYSIS, such as NMR, IR, you name it...you had to conduct that on your own time, after class, in order to verify that your synthesis was successful.

And we had a closed-note, 24-hr takehome, but that was fairly common at my school, so I don't consider the tests to have taken longer than a typical upper-level exam.

So yes, fun, but definitely time-consuming, and at least an order of magnitude of difficulty above any upper-level Bio I ever took.

 

[CyberMaxx]

So yes, fun, but definitely time-consuming, and at least an order of magnitude of difficulty above any upper-level Bio I ever took.

Agreed. For a point of reference, in the chemistry department at my school, most graduating seniors consider this to be the most difficult class in the major due to the insane time requirements and the disgustingly long lab reports. Of course, the chem majors don't have to take biochemistry 2, which is considered the other most difficult course in the department.

 

[FutureERDoc16]

There is no laboratory component to the course, so I will never have to do "real" synthesis....just "paper" synthesis. Also, I do well in biology, but I don't really enjoy it. If I have to spend countless hours studying for an exam, I would rather spend that time studying organic mechanisms than memorizing the life cycles of plants or the genetics of the fruit fly. At least to me, that's not challenging. It's boring and I won't gain anything from it. The moment I leave the final exam, I will delete the good-for-nothing knowledge from my mind. While I can't say I will remember every organic mechanism and synthetic pathway five years in the future, I will at least develop complex problem solving skills that will make me a good physician. Biology is just memorization. We all know how to memorize large amounts of material if we've made it this far (especially after taking a 400-level human physiology course last semester). So, how exactly will taking upper-level biology courses be more appealing to medical schools than taking advanced organic and writing an honors thesis?

 

[deleted530324]

Go for it. From a chemistry major perspective it's exactly what you should be doing to get what you want out of college, an education rather than just a degree. Pre-med perspective, maybe not. Ochem on the MCAT is pretty easy and relatively sparse.

Have you completed any ochem lab courses? If you liked it, think about looking for an undergraduate research position in an organic chem lab if your school has one.

In my experience, graduate level courses are a whole different ball game from undergrad. Maybe it was the fact that most of the people in them were more invested in the courses than many undergrads who "just want to pass", I don't know. But I never took organic beyond semester II.

I guess my words of wisdom are: If you find something you like and are good at, pursue it further. You'll probably have an easier time scoring high grades for things you are passionate about. I loved physiology/anatomy, but I got confused and thought I just liked learning. Ended up graduating with biochemistry, which really is not the same focus as human physiology...

 

[deleted530324]

I do well in biology, but I don't really enjoy it. If I have to spend countless hours studying for an exam, I would rather spend that time studying organic mechanisms...

Exactly.

I imagine interviewers want to see a prospective student pursuing what they're passionate about. Besides, isn't allopathic medicine traditionally about treating disease with medication? Extensive background in organic synthesis is exactly how we develop such medications.

 

[mehc012]

There is no laboratory component to the course, so I will never have to do "real" synthesis....just "paper" synthesis.

And THIS counts as a grad-level course? What the hell are you writing a thesis on if you don't do original lab work?

I don't know how you managed to hit this jackpot, but if you get to look like you took Synthetic without one of the most time-exhaustive aspects, AND get a thesis without 1 or 2 semesters of research, and get to say you took a grad level course instead of a 300-level...go for it! Why wouldn't you?

 

[JGimpel]

Is this for real?!! 😱 Wow, JGimpel, that is hardcore.

...or are you being sarcastic...

What I quoted is absolutely 100% true. The professor left after he made the announcement and it was a rough night.

@OP: If you can avoid all of the time wasted on this course and put it into areas more directly related to gaining admission to medical school, that would be the best path for you to take.. At the end of the day, it's up to you.

If you choose to take the course, you may as well begin studying now. These authors are GANGSTA!

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Synthesis-Disconnection-Stuart-Warren/dp/0470712368

http://www.amazon.com/Workbook-Organic-Synthesis-Disconnection-Approach/dp/0470712260

Good luck in whatever you end up doing; I wouldn't touch that course if I were you but I'd give you props if you survive it.

 

[VictorAlpha]

I say do it only if you are really interested and will work hard at it. Don't take it for medical school applications. If you perform badly it will mean more (in a bad way) than if you did well (in a good way)...if that makes sense. This means it's too much risk. But you are talented in Organic chemistry, so like I said, if you like it and will work hard then keep at it and crush that course!!

 

[Mdtichen]

I took a class like this at my school and absolutely loved it. I don't think it helped my application at all though. I'm sure it looks nice, but there are much better things you can do with your time if there are other weaknesses in your app. Good luck, I'm sure it will be a great class.

 

[plumazul]

OP, since you are a chem major, have you taken pchem yet?

I took a grad level organic mechanisms class last term. The book was a physical organic textbook. If I were you, take the grad class only after you finish pchem (at the very least the first semester of pchem) since you will need those skills.

good luck

 

[notbobtrustme]

Exactly.

I imagine interviewers want to see a prospective student pursuing what they're passionate about. Besides, isn't allopathic medicine traditionally about treating disease with medication? Extensive background in organic synthesis is exactly how we develop such medications.

No one cares that you took organic synthesis. Knowing how chemicals are synthesized will do you dick for getting through pharmacology in med school, because pharma is memorizing a phone book of drugs and their actions. If the OP was interested in pursuing a pharm career, then this class might be useful as a stepping stool to grad school. However, this class by itself does nothing for his application.

 

[mehc012]

OP, since you are a chem major, have you taken pchem yet?

I took a grad level organic mechanisms class last term. The book was a physical organic textbook. If I were you, take the grad class only after you finish pchem (at the very least the first semester of pchem) since you will need those skills.

good luck

You don't need any pchem for organic synthesis. You shouldn't need any for physical organic, either...the course/book might be called physical organic, but that's a pretty cruddy name, as they're not actually that related. Physical organic chemistry is, as your prof named it, about the study of organic mechanisms. It is in no way similar to actual physical chemistry (thank god) and you can take it without having ever taken a pchem course (and taking pchem wouldn't much help you; there's little to no overlap in the subject material.) Neither of those is really very similar to synthetic organic, which you can ALSO take without ever taking pchem, and certainly without ever taking physOrg.

So, yeah...physOrg is kind of a misnomer and not relevant to pchem, and none of this has anything to do with taking synthetic.

 

[plumazul]

You don't need any pchem for organic synthesis. You shouldn't need any for physical organic, either...the course/book might be called physical organic, but that's a pretty cruddy name, as they're not actually that related. Physical organic chemistry is, as your prof named it, about the study of organic mechanisms. It is in no way similar to actual physical chemistry (thank god) and you can take it without having ever taken a pchem course (and taking pchem wouldn't much help you; there's little to no overlap in the subject material.) Neither of those is really very similar to synthetic organic, which you can ALSO take without ever taking pchem, and certainly without ever taking physOrg.

So, yeah...physOrg is kind of a misnomer and not relevant to pchem, and none of this has anything to do with taking synthetic.

The problem here is that many upper level/grad courses may share titles but be very different in content from school to school. Without a detailed syllabus there's no way to really know for sure. What I wrote reflected my experience in a class titled "Advanced Organic Mechanisms", it may be different elsewhere. My advice to the OP is to make very sure you understand what is expected of you in any grad level class you take. In my experience, it can be a time sink which may require multiple detailed presentations before the class. But they can also be the best classes you'll take as an undergrad. 🙂

 

[mehc012]

The problem here is that many upper level/grad courses may share titles but be very different in content from school to school. Without a detailed syllabus there's no way to really know for sure. What I wrote reflected my experience in a class titled "Advanced Organic Mechanisms", it may be different elsewhere. My advice to the OP is to make very sure you understand what is expected of you in any grad level class you take. In my experience, it can be a time sink which may require multiple detailed presentations before the class. But they can also be the best classes you'll take as an undergrad. 🙂

You wrote about a class called "Advanced Organic Mechanisms" requiring a Physical Organic textbook, which is in NO WAY the same as it requiring a Physical Chemistry textbook. Physical Organic IS the study of organic mechanisms, and is not really pchem-based, no matter what the name implies.

Also, what is up with all of these being labelled as grad courses? If a few presentations makes a class a time sink, you're getting off easy in your other classes As you said, ymmv, but for me, most 300-levels had presentations and whatnot; it's a part of learning.

 

[plumazul]

Also, what is up with all of these being labelled as grad courses? If a few presentations makes a class a time sink, you're getting off easy in your other classes As you said, ymmv, but for me, most 300-levels had presentations and whatnot; it's a part of learning.

At my school some of these classes come in two flavors and are taught in the same classroom. The students taking the grad version will have different assignments. As for "presentations", yes I gave presentations in 5th grade. It's a matter of expectations for detail and rigor.

 

[mehc012]

At my school some of these classes come in two flavors and are taught in the same classroom. The students taking the grad version will have different assignments. As for "presentations", yes I gave presentations in 5th grade. It's a matter of expectations for detail and rigor.

Well, I had presentations in the 4th grade, and they were VERY rigorous and detailed!

I'm sorry, the little 'grad level' rant was out of line from me, my apologies. My school didn't have a grad school, so there was no possibility of them being labelled as such, now that I think on it. And the classes were too small to split. When I took physical organic, for example, it was a tutorial, so it was just me, the professor, and one other student. Plenty of detail, but a class presentation would have just involved me speaking to my single classmate, lol.

Point is, I shouldn't have attacked your class at all, it was incredibly rude of me and I'm sorry. I do still maintain, however, that recommending pchem as a foundation for synthetic or physOrg is unnecessary, and that "Physical Organic" is a misnomer for 'Organic Mechanisms' rather than pchem. If you disagree with me on that, I promise to not be a jerkwad about it like I was above...peace?

 

[plumazul]

I'm sorry, the little 'grad level' rant was out of line from me, my apologies. My school didn't have a grad school, so there was no possibility of them being labelled as such, now that I think on it. And the classes were too small to split. When I took physical organic, for example, it was a tutorial, so it was just me, the professor, and one other student. Plenty of detail, but a class presentation would have just involved me speaking to my single classmate, lol.

No problem, I am so immune to having my feelings hurt. If you knew my dad, you'd understand. 😱
We have a tutorial also. I wanted to take it concurrently with the lecture but I just couldn't squeeze anything else in without sacrificing sleep time. 🙁

I do still maintain, however, that recommending pchem as a foundation for synthetic or physOrg is unnecessary, and that "Physical Organic" is a misnomer for 'Organic Mechanisms' rather than pchem. If you disagree with me on that, I promise to not be a jerkwad about it like I was above...peace?

I understand what you're saying and you are correct. But in my specific case, pchem(thermo) was an inflexible prerequisite for taking any grad chem course(no exceptions). Pchem also included a kinetics section(also included in the lab) that was used in my Porganic class. My main concern was that the OP was still very early in his study of chemistry (I took orgo freshman year) and that making a jump from orgo II to "grad level" courses might be a bit much. Perhaps the OP will be just fine, but I didn't start taking grad courses until after pchem and this is something I would recommend to others.

 

[mehc012]

No problem, I am so immune to having my feelings hurt. If you knew my dad, you'd understand. 😱



I understand what you're saying and you are correct. But in my specific case, pchem(thermo) was an inflexible prerequisite for taking any grad chem course(no exceptions). Pchem also included a kinetics section(also included in the lab) that was used in my Porganic class. My main concern was that the OP was still very early in his study of chemistry (I took orgo freshman year) and that making a jump from orgo II to "grad level" courses might be a bit much. Perhaps the OP will be just fine, but I didn't start taking grad courses until after pchem and this is something I would recommend to others.

I guess every school's different. I didn't take any pchem until my senior spring, despite being a chem major with a thesis. I never felt that I was missing anything in upper-level orgos because of it...and that includes sophomore year taking synthetic organic.

 

[plumazul]

I guess every school's different. I didn't take any pchem until my senior spring, despite being a chem major with a thesis. I never felt that I was missing anything in upper-level orgos because of it...and that includes sophomore year taking synthetic organic.

Did you get an ACS cert? I wonder if this might explain some of the differences. The curriculum is intended to satisfy requirements for an ACS-Certified program. I believe that they made some changes when this was added to the standard BS program.

 

[mehc012]

Did you get an ACS cert? I wonder if this might explain some of the differences. The curriculum is intended to satisfy requirements for an ACS-Certified program. I believe that they made some changes when this was added to the standard BS program.

Liberal arts college...no BS's granted to anyone :/

Though now that I think of it, I was only referring to 300-level pchems. There were definitely some in the prereq courses, but I tested out and took them in a weird order/in combination courses, so I don't really know how to classify some things. At any rate, I never felt that my performance in orgo classes would have been improved by pchem.

 

[FutureERDoc16]

I will be taking physical chem along with advanced organic. The advanced organic course at my university is a four course sequence; the first course (synthesis) does not require p. chem knowledge. Anything above that course does.

And yes, I still have to complete research although it is not a component of the course; I am enrolled in 4-credit hours of undergraduate research for next semester. I have two years to prepare, and defend an honors thesis to a board of chemistry profs at my university. But the research does not necessarily correlate to the course; my research advisor is a biochemist with a research interest in molecular biology. It doesn't seem like I'll be using much of my "advanced organic chemical synthesis" techniques to complete my research.

Lastly, what do you guys think about taking a blow-off course seeing the rigor of my schedule? I will be taking one 600-level and two 300-level science courses concurrently. I took statistics last semester and was interested in taking "INFERENTIAL statistics" with another department (the one I took last semester had a MTH designation). The material is somewhat similar, but I feel like it might be a negative on my application if med schools see that I took two 100-level statistics courses. Would they understand seeing the rigor of the rest of my schedule?