Advantages of being a nontraditional student?

[Yasha182]

I am currently working full time in a completely unrelated field (engineering), and taking night classes to earn an AS in chemistry to complete pre-med coursework. I hold a PhD and during my 10 years of schooling my research focuses were in improving human health and well-being. So I believe my history can demonstrate my interest in medicine to a future medical school as much as it does to me. That being said, on to my question.

Some of my friends in medicine (currently doing their residencies) think I might actually have an advantage over traditional students come application time. They suggest that unlike students entering with a 4 year bachelor's degree, I will already have full time work experience and a track record for success in the difficult environment of graduate schooling. I will also be on sound financial footing when I apply for medical school, again unlike the traditional student. On the other hand, I am concerned with what I've read about the possible red flag of apparent career jumping.

My graduate advisor thinks I already career-jumped by leaving academia to work for a big industry business (he is extremely disappointed in me), not that I had a choice because I have to earn a living and it was the only option available to me. I'm also concerned because my AS transcript will show that I was taking car repair classes when I matriculated at community college. I was taking courses out of personal interest in my free time before I switched to focus on pre-med preparation. I know I'll get an opportunity to explain my circumstances, but I'm still nervous about it. Without necessarily asking, "have I ruined my chances", does anyone have thoughts about this?

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[gyngyn]

As long as your accomplishments (including MCAT and undergraduate gpa) are competitive for the schools to which you apply, you are at no disadvantage.
Your life experience will give you more to discuss in an application (and interview). As long as everything else is in order, this is where non-trads can shine.

 

[Goro]

Some of my friends in medicine (currently doing their residencies) think I might actually have an advantage over traditional students come application time. They suggest that unlike students entering with a 4 year bachelor's degree, I will already have full time work experience and a track record for success in the difficult environment of graduate schooling.

Your fiends are 1000% correct!

I will also be on sound financial footing when I apply for medical school, again unlike the traditional student. On the other hand, I am concerned with what I've read about the possible red flag of apparent career jumping.

If you bailed on your PhD while still in grad school, then an eyebrow might get raised. But ten years in? That's an evolution, not a revolution.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

definite advantage in having things to talk about, car repair would be a great one, also during clinicals patients will often want to deal with you over the youngsters

 

[gramnegative]

Being different from the norm can definitely get you attention, especially when you have background that shows discipline and achievement. Dot your I's and cross your t's (ace your pre-reqs and do well on the MCAT) and make sure you have a narrative that you can weave through your essays, secondaries, and interviews that meaningfully explains why you want to go into medicine and I bet you will have success.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

definite advantage in having things to talk about, car repair would be a great one, also during clinicals patients will often want to deal with you over the youngsters

Done that. He's really cool too.

Carl Allamby

Carl started medical school after owning an automotive repair business for twenty-five years. He says it's never too late to do something you're passionate abou

students-residents.aamc.org

 

[bomba]

Done that. He's really cool too.

Carl Allamby

Carl started medical school after owning an automotive repair business for twenty-five years. He says it's never too late to do something you're passionate abou

students-residents.aamc.org

I love Dr. Allamby's story. He has served as a major source of inspiration for me during my transition into a full time post-bacc studies. My allergies always start acting up when I watch this video:

This Mechanic Quit His Job to Go to Med School in His 40s

 

[Yasha182]

Thank you everyone for your responses!! I feel a lot better now, for real. A lot of my feelings I'm sure come from graduate school imposter syndrome, and the fear instilled in me as a child that what you do immediately out of college is what you are stuck with for life. Dr. Allamby's story is a true inspiration, I can relate to him on several levels because he also went to NEOMED which is one of the places I've been suggested to look at as a non-trad. I am glad to hear patients will be happy to deal with me, besides one of the things I know I have going for me is I am extremely personable. I do exceptionally well in job interviews because people enjoy speaking with me. One of the reasons I am interested in medicine is the ability to work with people to provide care, both medically speaking and just by speaking and interacting with them.

I will clarify a little, I did not quit the PhD - quite the opposite. I was already a few years in when I decided to switch careers but I stuck it out because I already committed to the project, it was research in counterfeit pharmaceutical detection and I knew without me the project would end. I also needed a means to support myself. I actually lost my grant about 1.5 years before graduation and had to keep going without pay, this resulted in some unfortunate debt I'm working to pay off now. I plan to spend the next year completing pre-reqs and then a couple extra courses to explore my particular interests, do some volunteer work to make sure I'm running to medicine and not away from where I am, and study for the MCAT.

Academically I excel, I am a straight A student where it counts. I faltered in mechanic coursework because I had no time to do homework when I was in grad school for something else, but I have As in all pre-med courses and it shows on my transcript that I stepped up when I needed to. I was also a little weak in later years of grad school because it was time to focus on research. Furthermore at risk of coming across as making excuses, nobody got As in the advanced coursework because (as my professor advisor told me) there were departmental politics at play. In my field it's a harsh grading environment, the best example I can think of is a course my advisor taught where I got a 40% on an exam and it was the highest score in the class. I was once given a C in a course because the professor said while I did fantastic, he found my final project boring (this was an undisclosed part of his grading scale). The department's view was that your performance is solely shown through research, and they took students getting good grades as a red flag that professors were not torturing us hard enough. On the other hand fortunately I have plenty of state-of-the-art research to show for my efforts and it's very clear from my doctoral dissertation that I put in the hard work. I went above and beyond what was required in that area and frequently collaborated with global industry leaders. I try to convince myself that alone is sufficient to justify why I don't have a 4.0 GPA.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Google the 41 yr old grad with 9 kids at Mayo Clinic too, that must not have been easy. She’s now starting neurosurgery residency.

 

[deleted1133766]

Being a nontrad will DEFINITELY help your application.

Anecdotally, I heard the director of admissions at our school say to a student "I would rather have you treating me than these young kids who don't know anything."

Grades, scores, and the interview still need to line up but assuming those are competitive for the school, I believe most programs would want to round out their cohorts with students who have life experience.

 

[Ad2b]

I try to convince myself that alone is sufficient to justify why I don't have a 4.0 GPA.

A 4.0 and a 520 MCAT does not = guaranteed medical school acceptance

RL Stories of non-trads I know:

55 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 60, residency completed at 63; 3.9, 512
53 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 56, residency completed at 60 (extra year for fellowship, at 60!); 3.7, 515
55 - accepted allopathic, DID NOT attend, currently figuring out life; 3.9, 520 (u-grad was 2.2)
45 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 49, residency completed at 55 (extra years for fellowship); 3.6, 512

As an aside, I HAVE seen non trads with a 4.0, 519 get accepted to top schools and were 40+

TL;DR: a less than 4.0 isn't going to make/break you getting accepted into medical school

 

[ElTacoGrande]

A 4.0 and a 520 MCAT does not = guaranteed medical school acceptance

RL Stories of non-trads I know:

55 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 60, residency completed at 63; 3.9, 512
53 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 56, residency completed at 60 (extra year for fellowship, at 60!); 3.7, 515
55 - accepted allopathic, DID NOT attend, currently figuring out life; 3.9, 520 (u-grad was 2.2)
45 - accepted allopathic, graduated at 49, residency completed at 55 (extra years for fellowship); 3.6, 512

As an aside, I HAVE seen non trads with a 4.0, 519 get accepted to top schools and were 40+

TL;DR: a less than 4.0 isn't going to make/break you getting accepted into medical school

Wow, those are crazy. that's the best accumulation of extreme non-trad examples I've seen. Were the 50+ crew lower/mid
tier schools ? Have a friend that might try that path here soon. Thanks !

 

[Ad2b]

I am one of them and my acceptances ranged from mid-anything to not JHU, U-Penn, Yale, Harvard, Columbia (where I did not apply). I did not apply to what some might consider lower end schools. I used LM and WARS for suggestions and then came here in the WAMC for others.

One of those above went to an upper mid, another mid and the last one I think it would be considered upper mid - those were acceptances. Not sure where they all applied - all allopathic. Not sure on the DO side - I'm sure Goro would know more there.

I applied to 35 schools. II at many, threw in some very high end stretches.

 

[PhD_to_DO]

I started medical school in fall 2021 at the age of 49. Like you, I earned my PhD and have had multiple careers ranging from public health industry to biomedical sciences research to academia (and a bunch of stuff in between). I found that my life story and everything that I’ve done was of great interest to medical school admissions committees and I ultimately ended up with four DO acceptances and one MD acceptance. Present a reasonably competitive application and you should get some interviews. Your age and experience will be seen as an asset. Good luck!

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Hot take, us non-trads are at a huge ADVANTAGE over the 20 and 21 year olds.

 

[Yasha182]

Wow, thank you all for your uplifting responses. I have to say I was nervous to ask my questions but reading through your responses has been the biggest uplift to my morale I've had in a while.

Now in regards to a "mid tier" vs "low tier" etc. school, what does this mean exactly? Is the quality of the education different? Do your job prospects (or direct residency matching prospects) depend on going to a high tier school? Having been through the academic process more than a couple of times at this point, I am pretty well seasoned with the basics. I was honestly surprised to find my local community college for example has a more pleasant environment and academically enriching experience in pre-med than what I had at a very highly rated (almost ivy league) school for grad school in my current field of expertise. In undergrad and grad school in my field at a high ranking school, educating students was simply an afterthought in a largely profit-motivated institution. Classes were for credits required to graduate and the real learning was pouring through textbooks recommended by my advising professor and studying abroad with similarly motivated professors who educated me as a means to get more valuable research done.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Doesn’t really matter unless you want to be a professor at a top school /run nih/ etc. from what I’ve observed

 

[PhD_to_DO]

Wow, thank you all for your uplifting responses. I have to say I was nervous to ask my questions but reading through your responses has been the biggest uplift to my morale I've had in a while.

Now in regards to a "mid tier" vs "low tier" etc. school, what does this mean exactly? Is the quality of the education different? Do your job prospects (or direct residency matching prospects) depend on going to a high tier school? Having been through the academic process more than a couple of times at this point, I am pretty well seasoned with the basics. I was honestly surprised to find my local community college for example has a more pleasant environment and academically enriching experience in pre-med than what I had at a very highly rated (almost ivy league) school for grad school in my current field of expertise. In undergrad and grad school in my field at a high ranking school, educating students was simply an afterthought in a largely profit-motivated institution. Classes were for credits required to graduate and the real learning was pouring through textbooks recommended by my advising professor and studying abroad with similarly motivated professors who educated me as a means to get more valuable research done.

This idea of “tiers” mainly deals with things like school/faculty research productivity, grant funds received, student opportunities, etc. These things don’t necessarily mean that the educational quality of “top tier” schools is better than “low tier” schools however. In selecting my medical school, I had a list of “Must Have’s” and “Deal Breakers”. I ended up being offered seats at four DO schools (all would be considered “low tier” according to most ranking systems) and one MD program that would probably categorized as a “mid tier” program. I choose to attend a DO program, UIWSOM, because it had the most “Must Have’s” and the fewest “Deal Breakers” of all the schools that I got into. I should note that my wife is with me so part of the calculus was ensuring that the city had as many “Must Have’s” and as few “Deal Breaker’s” as possible. So for me, my school is “Top tier.” Make your list of what is important to you in a school / city and conduct your search in that way. Excited to see what the future holds for you!!!

 

[Yasha182]

Doesn’t really matter unless you want to be a professor at a top school /run nih/ etc. from what I’ve observed

This works to my advantage, I have long since determined I have no interest in being a professor. I have enough of a taste to know regardless of subject matter, publish or perish, research and grant awards or starve, is not a passion of mine. Running the NIH would probably be out of the question too , as I'm more passionate about working on the ground floor directly with the patients and providing care.

This idea of “tiers” mainly deals with things like school/faculty research productivity, grant funds received, student opportunities, etc. These things don’t necessarily mean that the educational quality of “top tier” schools is better than “low tier” schools however. In selecting my medical school, I had a list of “Must Have’s” and “Deal Breakers”. I ended up being offered seats at four DO schools (all would be considered “low tier” according to most ranking systems) and one MD program that would probably categorized as a “mid tier” program. I choose to attend a DO program, UIWSOM, because it had the most “Must Have’s” and the fewest “Deal Breakers” of all the schools that I got into. I should note that my wife is with me so part of the calculus was ensuring that the city had as many “Must Have’s” and as few “Deal Breaker’s” as possible. So for me, my school is “Top tier.” Make your list of what is important to you in a school / city and conduct your search in that way. Excited to see what the future holds for you!!!

I appreciate your input. I have put down some roots where I'm working now and if I should be so lucky might be married to a special someone by the time med school comes around. Besides, speaking only for myself, I am accustomed to a home life which is comfortable and less temporary than that of my friends who went straight into med school out of undergrad. I think it will be one of my values that I would prefer to keep some of my country living comfort. It will likely aid in my success in future schooling. Fortunately I'm within reasonable driving distance of NEOMED and Cleveland Clinic, not that I expect I can be so picky, but you never know what the future holds!

 

[Sleepingdoc]

The patients really respected me more than my peers when i got our of med school because they knew i was older. Your real life experiences make you so much more suitable as a candidate.

 

[galadriel_1420]

Hello! Non-traditional student here.. You got this. We have a huge advantage in maturity and experience compared to the traditional students. I believe the biggest thing is that we have greater leadership skills because of our experiences. Don't be afraid to apply. I applied with a 3.8 sGPA and a 500 MCAT with a masters in biochemistry and molecular biology and a 5-year teaching career and have so far received 2 interviews in TX. JUST DO IT and don't second guess anything!

 

[raglandMD]

Hello! Non-traditional student here.. You got this. We have a huge advantage in maturity and experience compared to the traditional students. I believe the biggest thing is that we have greater leadership skills because of our experiences. Don't be afraid to apply. I applied with a 3.8 sGPA and a 500 MCAT with a masters in biochemistry and molecular biology and a 5-year teaching career and have so far received 2 interviews in TX. JUST DO IT and don't second guess anything!

Agree. The practice of medicine involves problem solving with answers that are not always black and white. There is a profound learning curve with application of textbook principles to real world problems. I found that my previous career in engineering was a unique attribute when I applied to medical school.