Advice for a new "pre-med" student

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BostonPsych715

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Hello, everybody. I joined StudentDoctor about a year ago to gain advice on how to make myself a better applicant for a PhD program in clinical psychology. In the past year, I've gotten involved in some research at my university and realized that I don't in fact enjoy research very much so I've been exploring other options. Right now, I am junior at a large state university in Massachusetts. Because I am interest in psychotherapy (as opposed to behavior modification) I'm considering med school in the future. I appreciate any advice anyone can give me on what I can do to make myself a promising applicant. Here's a little about me:

Expected graduation: 2016
Major: Psychology, B.S.
Minors: Biology (almost finished), and Chemistry (yet to start)
GPA: 3.8
Extracurriculars: Honors program, Psi Chi
Bonus information: I am first generation born in America on my dad's side. He was born on an obscure island off the coast of Africa. I can speak Creole. Outside of my classes, I am helping a professor with Alzheimer's research. I am also working on an honors thesis. Next spring, I am interning at a medical center.

Some questions I have:
What classes factor into my "science" GPA? Do psych classes count? Will my research methods class count towards this?

How many schools should I apply to? Right now, I am specifically considering Tufts and Umass Medicine because I want to stay in state. Is this reasonable?

What can I do in the next couple of years to make myself a better applicant?

Thank you all for all the helpful feedback you give on the site. I'd be lost without you. :)

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You need to start volunteering (clinical and/or nonclinical), get clinical experience (employment, volunteering, whatever), and shadow.

You also need to do well on the MCAT.

GPA looks good. Keep it up.

Edit:

Look over this page for AMCAS course classifications: https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/amcas/amcasresources/349784/courseclassificationguide.html

Also, applying to only a couple schools is generally not wise. The odds are very much against you if you decide to do this.
 
You need to start volunteering (clinical and/or nonclinical), get clinical experience (employment, volunteering, whatever), and shadow.

You also need to do well on the MCAT.

GPA looks good. Keep it up.

Thanks for replying! I also forgot to mention that I am doing an internship next spring at a medical center. As far as shadowing, how does one find a doctor to shadow? If I am interested in becoming a psychiatrist, is it crucial that I follow one?
 
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Thanks for replying! I also forgot to mention that I am doing an internship next spring at a medical center. As far as shadowing, how does one find a doctor to shadow? If I am interested in becoming a psychiatrist, is it crucial that I follow one?

No, it isn't. Actually, it is often difficult to shadow psychiatrists because the physicians treat patients who present with very sensitive topics. However, if you are interested in gaining exposure to psychiatric patients, I recommend volunteering in an ER.
 
Hello, everybody. I joined StudentDoctor about a year ago to gain advice on how to make myself a better applicant for a PhD program in clinical psychology. In the past year, I've gotten involved in some research at my university and realized that I don't in fact enjoy research very much so I've been exploring other options. Right now, I am junior at a large state university in Massachusetts. Because I am interest in psychotherapy (as opposed to behavior modification) I'm considering med school in the future. I appreciate any advice anyone can give me on what I can do to make myself a promising applicant. Here's a little about me:

Expected graduation: 2016
Major: Psychology, B.S.
Minors: Biology (almost finished), and Chemistry (yet to start)
GPA: 3.8
Extracurriculars: Honors program, Psi Chi
Bonus information: I am first generation born in America on my dad's side. He was born on an obscure island off the coast of Africa. I can speak Creole. Outside of my classes, I am helping a professor with Alzheimer's research. I am also working on an honors thesis. Next spring, I am interning at a medical center.

Some questions I have:
What classes factor into my "science" GPA? Do psych classes count? Will my research methods class count towards this?

How many schools should I apply to? Right now, I am specifically considering Tufts and Umass Medicine because I want to stay in state. Is this reasonable?

What can I do in the next couple of years to make myself a better applicant?

Thank you all for all the helpful feedback you give on the site. I'd be lost without you. :)
your post confused me...sounds like youre interested primarily in psychotherapy but you just don't want to go through the research required for a PhD right? then why not go for a PsyD?

you can definitely do psychotherapy as a psychiatrist, but I just don't see why you would want to go through all the time, money, and effort of med school if all youre interested in is therapy
 
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... Because I am interest in psychotherapy (as opposed to behavior modification) I'm considering med school in the future.

If I am interested in becoming a psychiatrist, is it crucial that I follow one?

Based on your current understanding of psychology v. psychiatry I'd strongly suggest gaining some actual exposure to the fields (shadowing, as an aide, etc).

Some psych classes will count towards your sGPA (e.g., your research methods class definitely should). The general rule is that if the class is >50% science/math count it as science. I was a psych a major and found AMCAS to very generous with me classifying psych classes as science.
 
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What classes factor into my "science" GPA? Do psych classes count? Will my research methods class count towards this?

Psych classes definitely do not count. The research methods course probably won't count, either. However, if you've taken a physiological psych or neuroscience-y course, you might be able to classify it as part of your BCPM. I'm personally going to include my two semesters of "Brain and Behavior" that were required of all neuroscience majors.

How many schools should I apply to? Right now, I am specifically considering Tufts and Umass Medicine because I want to stay in state. Is this reasonable?

Don't even think about this right now. You've got to see how you do in the prereqs and get some clinical exposure before you can think specifically about which schools. Plus, as another poster said, you're going to need to consider a lot more than just two schools.

What can I do in the next couple of years to make myself a better applicant?

Kick butt in your science courses, kick butt on the MCAT, shadow a bunch of docs, get at least 100 hours of volunteering in, etc. If you're interested in psychiatry, there are some community mental health facilities that will allow you to volunteer for some basic patient interaction (the state hospital I work at does, anyway.) Figure out: why medicine?

Because seriously... why medicine? I'm interested in doing therapy as a hopeful psychiatrist myself, but joke's on you if you think you're going to get anywhere close to the amount of therapy training you do in clinical psych as a medical student. If your goal is psychotherapy, go for a PsyD but do not go to medical school. Plus, most of the evidence-based therapies these days rely on behavioral modification, so not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive? Unless you're only interested in talk therapy, but just know that talk therapy is not as effective as behavioral therapies.
 
I listed the following courses (all with a psych prefix) as science without any issues with AMCAS or AACOMAS: Research Methods I, Research Methods II, Visual Perception, Attention and Thinking, Memory and Learning, Experimental Design, Cognitive Neuroscience, Intro to Neuroscience, Neuroscience, and Biopsych.
 
I listed the following courses (all with a psych prefix) as science without any issues with AMCAS or AACOMAS: Research Methods I, Research Methods II, Visual Perception, Attention and Thinking, Memory and Learning, Experimental Design, Cognitive Neuroscience, Intro to Neuroscience, Neuroscience, and Biopsych.

Many of my psych classes are "science-y". For example, right now I'm taking physiological psychology, biological psychology, and cognitive neuropsychology. Most of the content is about neurons, axon potentials, hormones, the nervous system, the endocrine system, etc.

I'm not expecting personality psych/abnormal psych to count toward my science GPA. The content of those classes is based on Freudian theory for the most part.
 
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Psych classes definitely do not count. The research methods course probably won't count, either. However, if you've taken a physiological psych or neuroscience-y course, you might be able to classify it as part of your BCPM. I'm personally going to include my two semesters of "Brain and Behavior" that were required of all neuroscience majors.



Don't even think about this right now. You've got to see how you do in the prereqs and get some clinical exposure before you can think specifically about which schools. Plus, as another poster said, you're going to need to consider a lot more than just two schools.



Kick butt in your science courses, kick butt on the MCAT, shadow a bunch of docs, get at least 100 hours of volunteering in, etc. If you're interested in psychiatry, there are some community mental health facilities that will allow you to volunteer for some basic patient interaction (the state hospital I work at does, anyway.) Figure out: why medicine?

Because seriously... why medicine? I'm interested in doing therapy as a hopeful psychiatrist myself, but joke's on you if you think you're going to get anywhere close to the amount of therapy training you do in clinical psych as a medical student. If your goal is psychotherapy, go for a PsyD but do not go to medical school. Plus, most of the evidence-based therapies these days rely on behavioral modification, so not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive? Unless you're only interested in talk therapy, but just know that talk therapy is not as effective as behavioral therapies.

I would not go for a PsyD because I'm not a millionaire. This is an extremely pricey route. Tuitions about 65k (not including cost of living) a year. Average salary is about 70,000. Also, I live in Massachusetts and the PsyD is generally frowned upon here.

It's not that I think psychotherapy and behavior mod are always mutually exclusive. I am just aware that the trend among the department at my school is behavior mod because insurane companies will not pay for the number of sessions it takes for "talk-therapy" to be effective. My sister struggled with anorexia nervosa for years. She entered a behavior mod program where they did not deal with the root of her behavior, but only with fixing the specific behaviors surrounding eating. IMO, they ignored a large part of problem. She is doing a lot better today with the help of Prozac for her depression. The experience left a sour taste in my mouth regarding solely behavior modification programs.

I am interested in medicine for the following reasons: The part of psychology that I am most interested in is biopsychology. I love to learn about the role of chemical composition in mental illness. A PsyD program is going to focus on the less science-y areas of the field: emotions, Freud, secretly being in love with your mother. Medical school is time-consuming and expensive--I know this. But eventually it will allow me to have a decent salary while doing what I want to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only 20, but this is my general reason for wanting to go to medical school as opposed to the PsyD route.
 
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your post confused me...sounds like youre interested primarily in psychotherapy but you just don't want to go through the research required for a PhD right? then why not go for a PsyD?

you can definitely do psychotherapy as a psychiatrist, but I just don't see why you would want to go through all the time, money, and effort of med school if all youre interested in is therapy

I've considered the PsyD but financially it's not the best option. It's extremely expensive. 65k for tuition a year (not including cost of living) and the degree itself can potentially take 6-7 years to complete. A clinical psychologist makes around 70k a year. That frightens me.

I'm not going to lie and say that I absolutely LOVE medicine because truthfully I'm not sure how much I love it. I am taking my first college-level chem class next semester. Who knows... I could potentially hate it. If that happens, I'll cry a little but then I'll get over it and reevaluate. I simply made this post because medical school is an option I'm considering. In the event that I do decide it's what I want to do, I want to have done things during my years undergrad (like volunteering) that make me a strong applicant.
 
I would not go for a PsyD because I'm not a millionaire. This is an extremely pricey route. Tuitions about 65k (not including cost of living) a year. Average salary is about 70,000. Also, I live in Massachusetts and the PsyD is generally frowned upon here.

It's not that I think psychotherapy and behavior mod are always mutually exclusive. I am just aware that the trend among the department at my school is behavior mod because insure companies do not want to pay for the number of sessions it takes for "talk-therapy" to be effective. My sister struggled with anorexia nervosa for years. She entered a behavior mod program where they did not deal with the root of her behavior, but only with fixing the specific behaviors surrounding eating. IMO, they ignored a large part of problem. She is doing a lot better today with the help of Prozac for her depression. The experience left a sour taste in my mouth regarding solely behavior modification programs.

I am interested in medicine for the following reasons: The part of psychology that I am most interested in is biopsychology. I love to learn about the role of chemical composition in mental illness. A PsyD program is going to focus on the less science-y areas of the field: emotions, Freud, secretly being in love with your mother. Medical school is time-consuming and expensive--I know this. But eventually it will allow me to have a decent salary while doing what I want to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only 20, but this is my general reason for wanting to go to medical school as opposed to the PsyD route.
You need to do some research as to what psychiatry v. psychology v. psychoanalysis are as you have the fields and their content very jumbled. HUGE pet peeve of mine - Freud =/= psychology, he was a neurologist by training and developed psychoanalysis which is NOT psychology; there's a reason the fields have a strong history of distinguishing themselves as separate from each other.
 
You need to do some research as to what psychiatry v. psychology v. psychoanalysis are as you have the fields and their content very jumbled. HUGE pet peeve of mine - Freud =/= psychology, he was a neurologist by training and developed psychoanalysis which is NOT psychology; there's a reason the fields have a history of distinguishing themselves as separate from each other.

I'm just speaking from my experience. The abnormal psych class I took was based almost SOLELY on Freud. I'm not saying psychology = Freud. Psychology is the scientific study of behavior. I know that not all of psychology is psycho-analysis. For example, one of my professors conducts dopamine research with rats on campus. He is very methodological in his approach to research. Everything is very scientific. There is no room for psycho-analysis in what he does.

Psychology is very broad. It is often used as a blanket term covering psychoanalysis, psychology, and psychiatry. I am aware that as psychiatrist I would be mainly prescribing medication. I am aware that most of medical school is a general curriculum and I would only specialize in my 3rd/4th year.

I made this post to get some feedback. I wasn't expecting such rude responses. I'm a 20 year old looking for some advice and there's certainly a better way to talk to people than the manner in which you're speaking to me. If anything, you've shown me that the world needs more psychologists and psychiatrists and I sorely hope that's not the field you're considering.
 
I'm just speaking from my experience. The abnormal psych class I took was based almost SOLELY on Freud. I'm not saying psychology = Freud. Psychology is the scientific study of behavior. I know that not all of psychology is psycho-analysis. For example, one of my professors conducts dopamine research with rats on campus. He is very methodological in his approach to research. Everything is very scientific. There is no room for psycho-analysis in what he does.

Psychology is very broad. It is often used as a blanket term covering psychoanalysis, psychology, and psychiatry. I am aware that as psychiatrist I would be mainly prescribing medication. I am aware that most of medical school is a general curriculum and I would only specialize in my 3rd/4th year.

I made this post to get some feedback. I wasn't expecting such rude responses. I'm a 20 year old looking for some advice and there's certainly a better way to talk to people than the manner in which you're speaking to me. If anything, you've shown me that the world needs more psychologists and psychiatrists and I sorely hope that's not the field you're considering.
My response wasn't meant to be interpreted as rude. I was simply pointing out that your concept of psychology/psychiatry/psychoanalysis is very blurry, and it would be wise to gain some more exposure and education as to what the fields clinical scopes of practice are to better understand what you are pursuing. Also you don't specialize until residency, not 3rd and 4th year of medical school.
 
It's not that I think psychotherapy and behavior mod are always mutually exclusive. I am just aware that the trend among the department at my school is behavior mod because insurane companies will not pay for the number of sessions it takes for "talk-therapy" to be effective. My sister struggled with anorexia nervosa for years. She entered a behavior mod program where they did not deal with the root of her behavior, but only with fixing the specific behaviors surrounding eating. IMO, they ignored a large part of problem. She is doing a lot better today with the help of Prozac for her depression. The experience left a sour taste in my mouth regarding solely behavior modification programs.


Oh my goodness, can we talk about this? I mean, not really... but can we? My younger sister has been struggling with EDNOS (restricting and purging) for years, and I have also been SO FRUSTRATED with this insane focus on the ED and the thin ideal and how the media causes all eating disorders, when I really wish they would talk about her anxiety and herself as a PERSON and not just someone who wants to be thin, because EDs are so much more than that. So, I completely understand where you're coming from, and I empathize with your role as a sibling.

Also, I know I, at least, wasn't trying to be rude! I was just trying to figure out your motivations/what you're expecting from medical school as someone who wants to do psychotherapy as a psychiatrist. I know my idealistic bubble has been burst, but I'm still set on medical school/psychiatry. I agree with everyone else that you just need to spend some time getting exposure in the various fields you're interested in. I worked in a clinical psychology office during undergrad and am now working at a psychiatric hospital, and both of those experiences have been very helpful for me in figuring out PhD vs. PsyD vs. MD.
 
I listed the following courses (all with a psych prefix) as science without any issues with AMCAS or AACOMAS: Research Methods I, Research Methods II, Visual Perception, Attention and Thinking, Memory and Learning, Experimental Design, Cognitive Neuroscience, Intro to Neuroscience, Neuroscience, and Biopsych.
I also classified four courses offered through my school's psych department as BCPM courses on AMCAS with no issue. I classified my stats and research methods as math, while I counted my cognitive psych and brain and behavior courses as biology.

I'm just speaking from my experience. The abnormal psych class I took was based almost SOLELY on Freud. I'm not saying psychology = Freud. Psychology is the scientific study of behavior. I know that not all of psychology is psycho-analysis. For example, one of my professors conducts dopamine research with rats on campus. He is very methodological in his approach to research. Everything is very scientific. There is no room for psycho-analysis in what he does.

Psychology is very broad. It is often used as a blanket term covering psychoanalysis, psychology, and psychiatry. I am aware that as psychiatrist I would be mainly prescribing medication. I am aware that most of medical school is a general curriculum and I would only specialize in my 3rd/4th year.

I made this post to get some feedback. I wasn't expecting such rude responses. I'm a 20 year old looking for some advice and there's certainly a better way to talk to people than the manner in which you're speaking to me. If anything, you've shown me that the world needs more psychologists and psychiatrists and I sorely hope that's not the field you're considering.

I think you are a little mistaken about the differences between psychiatrists and psychologists, although you do understand that psychiatry is geared towards medication management. If you are interested in medication management, rather than talk therapy, or unless you want to live in my home state, psychiatry would be ideal because you must be able to prescribe meds (my home state is one of two where psychologists can prescribe).

I'm unclear about what therapy you want to provide and why you couldn't do it as a psychologist or counselor. Psychology tends to be moving further and further away from Freudian psychoanalysis, at least in academic settings, and more towards CBT-type psychotherapy. It's also not clear what you mean by "behavior modification" therapy.

I don't think a PhD, nor a MD/DO, would be an ideal career path for you if you're primarily interested in psychotherapy. You only need a master's in clinical social work to provide psychotherapy/talk therapy. A PhD in psych is ideal if you're set on conducting research throughout your career. One other bonus of this track is that some programs are self-funded and you won't be in a significant amount of debt after obtaining your degree. The salary isn't as high as psychiatry, but it isn't a bad salary by any means if it's a better fit for your career goals.

Contrary to your statement above, you do not get to specialize in psychiatry until you have matched to a psychiatry residency and graduated from medical school. You will likely do a psychiatry clerkship in MS3, but that is just one of many rotations you are required to complete. You are also looking at 7 years minimum of training and extensive student debt before you can practice.

Good luck in deciding! Don't take the input you've received as discouragement; pursuing medicine takes a lot of time/effort/energy and you wouldn't want to waste it on something you didn't actually want.
 
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Oh my goodness, can we talk about this? I mean, not really... but can we? My younger sister has been struggling with EDNOS (restricting and purging) for years, and I have also been SO FRUSTRATED with this insane focus on the ED and the thin ideal and how the media causes all eating disorders, when I really wish they would talk about her anxiety and herself as a PERSON and not just someone who wants to be thin, because EDs are so much more than that. So, I completely understand where you're coming from, and I empathize with your role as a sibling.

Also, I know I, at least, wasn't trying to be rude! I was just trying to figure out your motivations/what you're expecting from medical school as someone who wants to do psychotherapy as a psychiatrist. I know my idealistic bubble has been burst, but I'm still set on medical school/psychiatry. I agree with everyone else that you just need to spend some time getting exposure in the various fields you're interested in. I worked in a clinical psychology office during undergrad and am now working at a psychiatric hospital, and both of those experiences have been very helpful for me in figuring out PhD vs. PsyD vs. MD.

Thank you for input. Like I said, med school is simply another option I'm considering. I am aware that I have yet to take any of my chemistry classes and I think these will very telling as to whether or not this is the path I want to pursue. I think completing my pre-reqs and doing my internship at the medical center will help me get a clearer idea of what I do & do not like. I just figured I would post on here, in the event that I do seriously consider medical school, to gain some insight as to what other components I will need to add to my application. Thanks for taking the time to respond! I also appreciate you sharing about your sister. I totally get it.
 
I also classified four courses offered through my school's psych department as BCPM courses on AMCAS with no issue. I classified my stats and research methods as math, while I counted my cognitive psych and brain and behavior courses as biology.



I think you are a little mistaken about the differences between psychiatrists and psychologists, although you do understand that psychiatry is geared towards medication management. If you are interested in medication management, rather than talk therapy, or unless you want to live in my home state, psychiatry would be ideal because you must be able to prescribe meds (my home state is one of two where psychologists can prescribe).

I'm unclear about what therapy you want to provide and why you couldn't do it as a psychologist or counselor. Psychology tends to be moving further and further away from Freudian psychoanalysis, at least in academic settings, and more towards CBT-type psychotherapy. It's also not clear what you mean by "behavior modification" therapy.

I don't think a PhD, nor a MD/DO, would be an ideal career path for you if you're primarily interested in psychotherapy. You only need a master's in clinical social work to provide psychotherapy/talk therapy. A PhD in psych is ideal if you're set on conducting research throughout your career. One other bonus of this track is that some programs are self-funded and you won't be in a significant amount of debt after obtaining your degree. The salary isn't as high as psychiatry, but it isn't a bad salary by any means if it's a better fit for your career goals.

Contrary to your statement above, you do not get to specialize in psychiatry until you have matched to a psychiatry residency and graduated from medical school. You will likely do a psychiatry clerkship in MS3, but that is just one of many rotations you are required to complete. You are also looking at 7 years minimum of training and extensive student debt before you can practice.

Good luck in deciding! Don't take the input you've received as discouragement; pursuing medicine takes a lot of time/effort/energy and you wouldn't want to waste it on something you didn't actually want.

Thank you for responding. I'm trying not be too sensitive. At the end of the day, I know I can do anything I set my mind to. It's just a matter of finding the right fit. Maybe I should've made my original post about my interests and gotten some feedback on what type(s) of degrees are available that match them. The reason I was not drawn to a masters in social work is because I am fascinated by the DSM-5 and diagnosis. I flip through the DSM for fun (weird, I know). Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the idea of being a masters-level counselor turns me off because it seems limiting. I always assumed I would be some sort of doctor (PhD, PsyD, MD or otherwise) because I am a natural born leader (I could never be a nurse!). I would want to be the one designing the treatment, prescribing the meds, and giving the diagnosis. Because I've had my heart set on becoming a doctor, I do not think I would be satisfied at the masters-level.

I think I'm having such difficulty deciding on a path because ultimately I love school and there's so many careers I would love to have! I guess if I had to choose an area of psychology that interests me most it's mental illness. When I vision my future, I see myself talking to people who struggle with mental illness and being able to come up with a plan (whether it involves meds, talk therapy sessions, etc) to help them. I suppose I could do this with both an MD, PhD in clinical psych, and PsyD but I was beginning to lean more toward med school because of the need for psychiatrists (clinical psych is over saturated, as a result it is statistically harder to get into a PhD program for clinical psych than a lot of med schools) and also the better salary (I'm not in the this for the money, but it is a bonus).

Feel free to tell me if any of my views are incorrect. I admittedly don't know a lot about med school.
 
Thank you for responding. I'm trying not be too sensitive. At the end of the day, I know I can do anything I set my mind to. It's just a matter of finding the right fit. Maybe I should've made my original post about my interests and gotten some feedback on what type(s) of degrees are available that match them. The reason I was not drawn to a masters in social work is because I am fascinated by the DSM-5 and diagnosis. I flip through the DSM for fun (weird, I know). Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the idea of being a masters-level counselor turns me off because it seems limiting. I always assumed I would be some sort of doctor (PhD, PsyD, MD or otherwise) because I am a natural born leader (I could never be a nurse!). I would want to be the one designing the treatment, prescribing the meds, and giving the diagnosis. Because I've had my heart set on becoming a doctor, I do not think I would be satisfied at the masters-level.

I think I'm having such difficulty deciding on a path because ultimately I love school and there's so many careers I would love to have! I guess if I had to choose an area of psychology that interests me most it's mental illness. When I vision my future, I see myself talking to people who struggle with mental illness and being able to come up with a plan (whether it involves meds, talk therapy sessions, etc) to help them. I suppose I could do this with both an MD, PhD in clinical psych, and PsyD but I was beginning to lean more toward med school because of the need for psychiatrists (clinical psych is over saturated, as a result it is statistically harder to get into a PhD program for clinical psych than a lot of med schools) and also the better salary (I'm not in the this for the money, but it is a bonus).

Feel free to tell me if any of my views are incorrect. I admittedly don't know a lot about med school.

I think you're on the right track, however, you'll have to explore your options to find out what you like or dislike. You should talk with some of the clinical psych faculty about what that pathway entails, as well as shadowing a few doctors. Someone mentioned it already, but it will probably be hard to shadow a psychiatrist. That being said, you could try and talk with a few about what their career entails. In addition, you should try and work in some clinical experience or look into psychiatry technician jobs.

You'll probably have an easier time choosing a path once you've got a better idea about what you want in your career, but you've got plenty of time to make a decision. Good luck!
 
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