Advice for non-trad Mexican applicant

[persistenceofmemory]

Hi all, this is my first time posting - I'd like objective feedback on my situation, and how I should maximize my time as a non-trad seeking an M.D. (neuro) this next year. I have a UC Berkeley Psychology B.A. (full ride), I'm 24 yo Female, 1st gen Mexican American.

Background:
I was an honors high school student, but due to renal tumors, I had to undergo a couple surgeries and treatment for 2 years in Mexico (no US medical insurance at the time), so I missed the application period. After, I got into UC Berkeley with a 3.8 GPA (great cc in San Diego with 3 years of tutoring psych, ESL and other strong ECs).

At UC Berkeley I had mostly A's and B's, I worked 2 jobs, one of which was an RA where I did Auditory Perception research (1 year).

My GPA took a huge dip my second semester when my mom got herpes viral encephalitis- almost killing her, and leaving her with a destroyed left temporal lobe which has caused epilepsy (complex partial seizures), anomic aphasia and memory loss. It has 80% mortality, and she now is completely dependent on me and my sister. It has been a long recovery with scarce treatment options due to our bad insurance and limited Spanish speaking only options.

Simultaneously, my living conditions were terrible as my roommate (childhood best friend) attempted suicide that semester. To make a long story short-- I was emotionally checked out and dropped everything to be with my mom and sis, and my 3.65 Berkeley GPA sank to 3.3.

Fall 2015:
Neuroscience: B+
Clinical Psych: B+
Social Psych: P
Cog Psych: P
Bio Psych: F

I retook it and got an A.

Post-bac:
I returned home to care for my mom, and it has taken 3 years for her to recover and find the correct dosages for her. I have been her main caretaker.

I have been taking my prereqs at the same cc, and have a 4.0 so far. Missing Physics II, Chem II, Organic and Biochem. I know I need to slay the MCAT. If I continue with As I'm looking at a sGPA 3.7 and cGPA 3.6 with all cc and Berkeley classes included.

Clinical/Research ECs:

Electrophysiology/Stroke Medical Assistant (1 year full-time) hands on w/ patients-- chart histories, vitals, memory tests, scans, insurances etc.

EEG tech (1.4 years part-time)-- chart meds, administer the EEG exam, write a report and read brain waves

Strong LOR from 3 M.D.s (neurologists), 2 PhD (biopsych/PI), and 1 M.S. (head of cc chem dept.)

RA for the SDSU/UCSD Brain Imaging Lab (Autism), where I'm working to get published (2 years), and the 1 year at UC Berkeley.

I am looking to do more humanitarian/ hospice volunteer work between completing my prereqs, doing the EEGs and research.

**** I did not do a post-bacc b/c UCSD's is only for those who have failed the prereqs, and their extension is no labs, all online Other than crashing UCSD's impacted undergrad classes and playing the waiting game for years- it was the most reasonable decision to take them at cc.


ANY FEEDBACK / EXPERIENCED OPINIONS are welcome on how I can work on my application to try to make up for that F. I realize that cc is stigmatized, so should I blow 900$ and take an online UCSD extension science course even if it won't even count?? Should I take additional cc science courses?
If my sGPA> cGPA will that hurt me? WHAT ELSE SHOULD I DO ?!


Thank you so much in advance !

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[operaman]

Holy crap what a story! You've got the makings of someone who will almost certainly go on to become the kind of physician we all hope to be. Your experience as a caregiver, your work with autistic kids (my own institution has a huge center devoted to this too and it's a burgeoning area of interest for me), and your clinical experience are all solid.

I'll venture that I don't think your grades are that bad, come with a compelling story, and are high enough that they shouldn't get you auto-screened out anywhere. You should also be able to claim URM status which will make this even less of an issue. As for the CC, I'd say you've come this far, just get it done and crush the MCAT. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in person/lab CC coud >> online only extension course. Based on what you've said, I think you've demonstrated an ability to handle the material. Again, your MCAT score will be key to making this argument.

I don't see any shadowing on your ECs, though obviously you work a lot with physicians. You would still benefit from 40-50 hours (4-5 days) of actual shadowing both for yourself to be sure you want to do all of the job and to check that box on your application. You clearly have physician contacts and I'd imagine any of them would let you shadow. Some volunteer work would be nice too, but I'd prioritize shadowing first.

So here's the biggest issue I see with your application: your mother's health and care needs going forward. Obviously this is personal so you don't need to share if you prefer not to, but this has clearly been a huge impact on your life and triggered some academic struggles already. Medical school is long and quite unforgiving of time away; my concern would be whether now is the right time for you or should you wait until other arrangements can be made to ensure your mother's care. Is your sister willing to shoulder the entire burden of caring for her while you're away at school and residency for 7-10 years? Are there other arrangements that you could make? My only concern with admitting someone like you who clearly has a heart for serving the suffering and will undoubtedly make a great physician is that I would want to be sure you were set up for success to actually finish. I would find it very difficult emotionally to admit someone like you and see them have to drop out after 2 years for clearly foreseeable reasons, now carrying $120k in extra debt they may never be able to pay off.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

Holy crap what a story! You've got the makings of someone who will almost certainly go on to become the kind of physician we all hope to be. Your experience as a caregiver, your work with autistic kids (my own institution has a huge center devoted to this too and it's a burgeoning area of interest for me), and your clinical experience are all solid.

I'll venture that I don't think your grades are that bad, come with a compelling story, and are high enough that they shouldn't get you auto-screened out anywhere. You should also be able to claim URM status which will make this even less of an issue. As for the CC, I'd say you've come this far, just get it done and crush the MCAT. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in person/lab CC coud >> online only extension course. Based on what you've said, I think you've demonstrated an ability to handle the material. Again, your MCAT score will be key to making this argument.

I don't see any shadowing on your ECs, though obviously you work a lot with physicians. You would still benefit from 40-50 hours (4-5 days) of actual shadowing both for yourself to be sure you want to do all of the job and to check that box on your application. You clearly have physician contacts and I'd imagine any of them would let you shadow. Some volunteer work would be nice too, but I'd prioritize shadowing first.

So here's the biggest issue I see with your application: your mother's health and care needs going forward. Obviously this is personal so you don't need to share if you prefer not to, but this has clearly been a huge impact on your life and triggered some academic struggles already. Medical school is long and quite unforgiving of time away; my concern would be whether now is the right time for you or should you wait until other arrangements can be made to ensure your mother's care. Is your sister willing to shoulder the entire burden of caring for her while you're away at school and residency for 7-10 years? Are there other arrangements that you could make? My only concern with admitting someone like you who clearly has a heart for serving the suffering and will undoubtedly make a great physician is that I would want to be sure you were set up for success to actually finish. I would find it very difficult emotionally to admit someone like you and see them have to drop out after 2 years for clearly foreseeable reasons, now carrying $120k in extra debt they may never be able to pay off.

Thank you for your honest (and encouraging) response. I will definitely look into shadowing- the neurologists I work with aren't fond of shadowing since they think that pre-med students "don't know anything" so it would be a waste of time. However, I will keep knocking on doors because I would really like to shadow female doctors as well.

And yes- I agree with you 100%. I have taken 2 years off (going on 3) to finish my prereqs/application etc. while my older sister completes her MBA- she put her career on hold to care for my mom so I could finish at Cal. She is staying in San Diego for her MBA education and career, and we are planning for my mom to retire in Mexico City, where she can be with our extended family. However that is not for a while and I'm honestly not too sure about the details/finances etc. Do you think this is a "good enough" answer for the committee/ interview ? Thanks again!!!

 

[Lucky Day]

Could you clarify your timeline? You said you had treatment in Mexico for 2 years, spent 3 years at a cc, some time at UC Berkely and almost 3 years off, but you're only 24. It would be helpful to see where you were by year and the correspondence, time-wise, to some of the events you've detailed.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

Could you clarify your timeline? You said you had treatment in Mexico for 2 years, spent 3 years at a cc, some time at UC Berkely and almost 3 years off, but you're only 24. It would be helpful to see where you were by year and the correspondence, time-wise, to some of the events you've detailed.

Of course.. I underwent two years of intravenous treatment in Tijuana during high school for two years and was class of 2011 (AP credit, 3.8 gpa honors). I went to cc thereafter for 3 years (3.8 gpa), and then was the class of 2016 at Cal (3.33).
During my time at Cal, my mom got sick (2015), so I finished ASAP and moved back to SD. I plan to apply maybe next cycle or the one after that, so it will be 3-4 years post-bacc.
During this time I've been completing the prereqs, doing research, EEG tech and also care for my mom whose epilepsy was just controlled this year after several trial and error medications.

Hope that clarifies my timeline- Although I do feel like the clock is ticking.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

Oh and my current science GPA is 4.0. Although its from cc i think the only indication to prove my solid foundation is the MCAT.

 

[Lucky Day]

Of course.. I underwent two years of intravenous treatment in Tijuana during high school for two years and was class of 2011 (AP credit, 3.8 gpa honors). I went to cc thereafter for 3 years (3.8 gpa), and then was the class of 2016 at Cal (3.33).
During my time at Cal, my mom got sick (2015), so I finished ASAP and moved back to SD. I plan to apply maybe next cycle or the one after that, so it will be 3-4 years post-bacc.
During this time I've been completing the prereqs, doing research, EEG tech and also care for my mom whose epilepsy was just controlled this year after several trial and error medications.

Hope that clarifies my timeline- Although I do feel like the clock is ticking.

You shouldn't be in a rush because of an imaginary clock. You're 24. You have plenty of time.

Can you afford a masters program? It seems like you haven't proven you can handle a full course load of sciences. You did 3 years at a CC, which I assume you did around 60 credit hours (that averages less than full time), then you did Berkeley, at which your GPA dropped, lastly you're doing 3-4 years at a CC for the pre-reqs, which is definitely not full time.

All put together, I think you have to prove that you can sustain some sort of academic consistency. Because you've had a lot of bad things happen to you, but it may be hard to tell if you're a victim of circumstance or if you're not capable.

Hopefully an adcom here will chime in. In your case, it's hard for me to say anything with certainty. A lot more info would be needed.

 

[operaman]

Thank you for your honest (and encouraging) response. I will definitely look into shadowing- the neurologists I work with aren't fond of shadowing since they think that pre-med students "don't know anything" so it would be a waste of time. However, I will keep knocking on doors because I would really like to shadow female doctors as well.

And yes- I agree with you 100%. I have taken 2 years off (going on 3) to finish my prereqs/application etc. while my older sister completes her MBA- she put her career on hold to care for my mom so I could finish at Cal. She is staying in San Diego for her MBA education and career, and we are planning for my mom to retire in Mexico City, where she can be with our extended family. However that is not for a while and I'm honestly not too sure about the details/finances etc. Do you think this is a "good enough" answer for the committee/ interview ? Thanks again!!!

So just clarifying, your sister would plan to move back to SD and start her career while also helping care for your mom? If so I think that works fine. I don't think there's such a thing as a good or bad answer to this question when asked -- and if you talk about your mom's health, they will almost surely ask how she's doing now, especially if you you frame that as one of the reasons you struggled academically at the time.

More important than how your answer is perceived is how thought-out your answer is for you and whether you and your sister have really made firm plans to care for your mom over the 7-10 years of training. Does your sister have a job in SD? Will her work allow her to be your mom's caregiver as well or will she have enough income or other support to ensure someone is able to provide that care full time? Does your sister understand how her being tied to SD and the responsibility of being a solo caregiver may impact her future career plans? What about her personal life plans? Obviously we're getting way beyond the scope of what anyone would ever ask you and you absolutely don't have to answer any of these here, just putting them out there in hopes that these are discussions you have been having with your sister and whoever else is involved.

The time demands of school and training are such that it will be hard and sometimes impossible for you to get home, especially if you matriculate at a school some distance from your mom and sister. I've known people who had parents get sick during medical school and without exception they all had to take a leave of absence to do so. Medical school is very unforgiving of time away; the volume and velocity of information is simply too high for anyone to survive falling behind.

The only thing worse than not going to medical school or getting rejected from medical school, is getting in to medical school and having to drop out. If you drop out or fail out, it's impossible to get in at any other school ever, and close to impossible to get your school to give you another shot, not to mention the debt you would accumulate with no degree. All that to say: make sure your family, your mom and your sister especially, understand what you're planning to do, understand what sacrifices are being asked of them, and are willing to commit.

If so, then I think you've got a great shot assuming you do well on the MCAT. If things at home aren't quite ready for your prolonged absence, then it might be worth waiting until they are.

I saw the other poster mention possibly needing a special masters program or something to show you can handle the load of coursework; I'm not sure what the answer is on that front and I too am interested to see how some of our adcoms here respond.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

You shouldn't be in a rush because of an imaginary clock. You're 24. You have plenty of time.

Can you afford a masters program? It seems like you haven't proven you can handle a full course load of sciences. You did 3 years at a CC, which I assume you did around 60 credit hours (that averages less than full time), then you did Berkeley, at which your GPA dropped, lastly you're doing 3-4 years at a CC for the pre-reqs, which is definitely not full time.

All put together, I think you have to prove that you can sustain some sort of academic consistency. Because you've had a lot of bad things happen to you, but it may be hard to tell if you're a victim of circumstance or if you're not capable.

Hopefully an adcom here will chime in. In your case, it's hard for me to say anything with certainty. A lot more info would be needed.

Thanks for your reply- I'm considering crashing upper div sciences at UCSD or SDSU, although this will be an expensive decision.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

So just clarifying, your sister would plan to move back to SD and start her career while also helping care for your mom? If so I think that works fine. I don't think there's such a thing as a good or bad answer to this question when asked -- and if you talk about your mom's health, they will almost surely ask how she's doing now, especially if you you frame that as one of the reasons you struggled academically at the time.

More important than how your answer is perceived is how thought-out your answer is for you and whether you and your sister have really made firm plans to care for your mom over the 7-10 years of training. Does your sister have a job in SD? Will her work allow her to be your mom's caregiver as well or will she have enough income or other support to ensure someone is able to provide that care full time? Does your sister understand how her being tied to SD and the responsibility of being a solo caregiver may impact her future career plans? What about her personal life plans? Obviously we're getting way beyond the scope of what anyone would ever ask you and you absolutely don't have to answer any of these here, just putting them out there in hopes that these are discussions you have been having with your sister and whoever else is involved.

The time demands of school and training are such that it will be hard and sometimes impossible for you to get home, especially if you matriculate at a school some distance from your mom and sister. I've known people who had parents get sick during medical school and without exception they all had to take a leave of absence to do so. Medical school is very unforgiving of time away; the volume and velocity of information is simply too high for anyone to survive falling behind.

The only thing worse than not going to medical school or getting rejected from medical school, is getting in to medical school and having to drop out. If you drop out or fail out, it's impossible to get in at any other school ever, and close to impossible to get your school to give you another shot, not to mention the debt you would accumulate with no degree. All that to say: make sure your family, your mom and your sister especially, understand what you're planning to do, understand what sacrifices are being asked of them, and are willing to commit.

If so, then I think you've got a great shot assuming you do well on the MCAT. If things at home aren't quite ready for your prolonged absence, then it might be worth waiting until they are.

I saw the other poster mention possibly needing a special masters program or something to show you can handle the load of coursework; I'm not sure what the answer is on that front and I too am interested to see how some of our adcoms here respond.

Thanks for your reply. I would not leave to study unless everything was taken care of first. And yes, my sister is dong her MBA at USD and will be staying here long term. But now I'm wondering if I should just apply post MCAT and see what happens...or if I should start preparing for a masters now. I could also crash upper div science courses at SDSU/UCSD?

 

[alexlex143]

I am having a lot of success this current cycle with some stats similar to yours. I am also URM (Latino/a) with a LM 64. While I had about 2 years of poor grades (including several F's, W's, etc.), I focused on creating significant upward trend that spanned 5 years of post-bac work with at least 3 of those years being full-time at a CSU. While it doesn't sound like you need as much repair as I did, I agree with some of the previous posts regarding your need to prove that you can handle a rigorous course load at a higher level (like an SMP). Your success at cc is great but the fact that you dipped when you attended a higher level institution will probably work against you if you don't address it.

Also, I didn't notice whether or not you had any LORs from science faculty. I see PIs but were these affiliated with your undergrad institution or from your employment? You'll need LORs from profs and keep in mind that most schools only want 3-6, so the 3 MD LORs while great might not be what you need.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more of my personal details. I'm happy to share.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

I am having a lot of success this current cycle with some stats similar to yours. I am also URM (Latino/a) with a LM 64. While I had about 2 years of poor grades (including several F's, W's, etc.), I focused on creating significant upward trend that spanned 5 years of post-bac work with at least 3 of those years being full-time at a CSU. While it doesn't sound like you need as much repair as I did, I agree with some of the previous posts regarding your need to prove that you can handle a rigorous course load at a higher level (like an SMP). Your success at cc is great but the fact that you dipped when you attended a higher level institution will probably work against you if you don't address it.

Also, I didn't notice whether or not you had any LORs from science faculty. I see PIs but were these affiliated with your undergrad institution or from your employment? You'll need LORs from profs and keep in mind that most schools only want 3-6, so the 3 MD LORs while great might not be what you need.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more of my personal details. I'm happy to share.

Congratulations on your success this cycle!
I am close to SDSU, so can try to crash courses there? And I see UCSD has concurrent enrollment- 280$ per unit though, and I'm about 45 min away. I guess I just need a game plan of attack to get into these impacted science classes within a reasonable time frame.

And yes, I have letters from a chemistry prof (gen and organic at cc M.S.) who knows my work ethic very well. Also from my cc biological psychology prof (PhD). At Berkeley I have 2 letters, one from my PI (PhD) and the other from my Neuropsychology prof (M.D.).

 

[operaman]

Thanks for your reply. I would not leave to study unless everything was taken care of first. And yes, my sister is dong her MBA at USD and will be staying here long term. But now I'm wondering if I should just apply post MCAT and see what happens...or if I should start preparing for a masters now. I could also crash upper div science courses at SDSU/UCSD?

Yeah the upper division classes would be a good option actually assuming you already have the other pre-reqs. You just need to demonstrate your ability to handle a rigorous academic load and a full load of upper division science courses would certainly do that. It would also be helpful for the start of MS1 as you would get a better foundation and have a little extra time before the firehose of knowledge was turned on you full force. Obviously pick things that would be helpful -- ie. maybe don't take a 400 level ecology course. But physiology, genetics, micro, cell/molecular bio, biochem, biostats, immuno, etc. would all be relevant.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

Yeah the upper division classes would be a good option actually assuming you already have the other pre-reqs. You just need to demonstrate your ability to handle a rigorous academic load and a full load of upper division science courses would certainly do that. It would also be helpful for the start of MS1 as you would get a better foundation and have a little extra time before the firehose of knowledge was turned on you full force. Obviously pick things that would be helpful -- ie. maybe don't take a 400 level ecology course. But physiology, genetics, micro, cell/molecular bio, biochem, biostats, immuno, etc. would all be relevant.

That is great feedback. Another question- would you recommend taking the MCAT post cc prereqs, and then tackle the UCSD courses? Or would you take the MCAT post cc and uni classes? Thanks!

 

[operaman]

Take the mcat when you’re ready to do well on it. This is determined by taking a practice test under simulated test conditions. You’ll probably need a few weeks or months to study depending on how your practice exams go, so figure out where you can fit this in.

The other consideration is that mcat scores are good for about three years, so keep this in mind as you plan your overall timetable. I don’t think this will be an issue for you either way though.

 

[operaman]

That is great feedback. Another question- would you recommend taking the MCAT post cc prereqs, and then tackle the UCSD courses? Or would you take the MCAT post cc and uni classes? Thanks!

One more thing that just hit me you might want to consider: if you’ve already done the prereqs, maybe consider getting the mcat done before the UC classes for this reason: what if you aren’t able to score high enough on the mcat? Since the classes will be expensive, it might be worth aiming to take the mcat beforehand. While I think most people with adequate prep can get a decent score, I’ve known people who just can’t get past a wall.

 

[persistenceofmemory]

One more thing that just hit me you might want to consider: if you’ve already done the prereqs, maybe consider getting the mcat done before the UC classes for this reason: what if you aren’t able to score high enough on the mcat? Since the classes will be expensive, it might be worth aiming to take the mcat beforehand. While I think most people with adequate prep can get a decent score, I’ve known people who just can’t get past a wall.

Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I am considering this too. I've been reading that the MCAT content is very basic science and it is rather the scientific application of these concepts that makes it a challenging exam, so practice exams and problems are more crucial. I have compiled a list of UCSD courses after my last prereq semester of cc Fall 18 (ends 12/17/18)...

Winter 19 ucsd extension (1/8 - 3/5)
Biochemistry online (3)
MCAT

Spring 19 ucsd (3/27 - 6/15)
Genetics (4) or Molecular Biology (4)
Cell Biology (4)
Human Physiology (4)

Summer Sessions I & II 19 ucsd
Virology (4)
Biostatistics (4)
Diseases of the Nervous System (4)

Fall 19
Medical Microbiology (4)
The Healthy and Diseased Brain (4)
Biology of Cancer (4)


I've never had the quarter system so I'm not sure if 12 units is much + EEG tech job + research. I might have to pause the research. And as you can see, I'm adding neuro classes I feel comfortable with in order to focus on the other courses I feel less experienced in. I'm not sure if I should just cut these off and lessen my time at UCSD, or if I should add 2 unit seminars to add to my "workload". Thoughts?