Advice For Older, Nontraditional Students

Your post is so sad...I'm sorry that things turned out the way they did. I'm curious...did you apply to DO schools?

Well, best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

What a post!!!

I'm not sure if that was done as a catharsis or as a public service announcement, but either way... WOW!!!

There are so many brilliant words of wisdom in there, but as is true with many insights in life... they are not fully understood unless learned first hand.

I especially like the comment about pre-medical advisors. This is so applicable to an outspoken expert advisor at UC Davis. I wonder if that is who you were thinking of when you typed this.

 

Man this post is a real bummer. I'm in somewhat of a similar situtation and this whole ordeal has been an emotional roller coaster. I'm also approaching 30, however this is my first (hopefully only) application cycle, and I'll be taking the MCAT for the first time on the 17th. I read something like this and think HOLY [email protected]&P I'm doomed. On the bright side I also know and have heard of plenty of people who make into Med School after years off.

 

What was this guy expecting? He shows up with a really crappy gpa (which by the way must have been about a 2.2 before all his post bacc glories), an mcat best of 26, and expects med schools to accept him with open arms?? Give me a break. To be a physician requires hard work, dedication and intelligence, this guy has no evidence of any of those qualities. Were they supposed to take his word on how smart and dedicated he is? Are we?

Personally, I come to these boards because I want to be a doctor, not to look for excuses to quit. Thanks for all the advice, dude, but next time save it for someone who's looking to quit.

I

 

aaww come on Z, you can do better than that! Let's give the guy some credit...I honestly feel sorry for him.

As for his "crappy" GPA--I am a 3.37 NON-Sci and 3.2 Sci with a whacko (read: from 2.0 to 4.0) upward trend and only 27Q on the MCAT. I have hope that med schools WILL accept me with open arms. Why? Because I would like to think its' beyond the numbers. Aren't we, average B students not as hard working and diligent as you are? Don't we also know that med school is no cake walk and ofcourse the whole app process is a bit random? And what's wrong with giving a little advice in good faith, hoping it will help others?

Come on, let's not bash him like that.

Tweetie

 

I partially agree with Z. There is a 5 year gap between his two MCAT scores. He's choosing to quit and not take it a 3rd time. His MCAT scores are substandard; as a non-traditional candidate he should have known that he would be expected to "stand out from the crowd". A 26 isn't my idea of a good way to stand out.

I did poorly on my first MCAT in april, and I've admitted to myself that I wasn't prepared. I'm busting my balls now to get ready again this 17th, thats my choice and I hope I do well enough never to take it again. I'm not about to take 5 years off and choose an alternative plan. That's absurd. If I had to have alternative plans for every one of my life choices I would be in serious trouble. Successful people are those that can make a plan and stick to it. The original post is one of surrender, lets think twice before feeling too sorry here. Maybe I'm just in my typical apathetic exam mode, but it's a sad story, and I sympathize, but thats about as far as it goes.

 

Alright Kidmel...

"so you say you've come here because you want to be a doctor....here are a few tips I've learned by being the patient.
DON'T be condescending!!
DON'T stereotype!
Make time for the patient.
Forget about YOUR needs and wants and focus on the PATIENT'S needs and wants"

-This is all good stuff... but, I didn't ask for your advice on doctoring, and even though what you say may be true, its off target. We are discussing admission standards and this guys inability to gain entrance to medical school. No where did I say what kind of doctor this guy would make (you made an assumption, and a bad one at that). I said he has shown no evidence of the traits that medical schools look for, apparently the adcoms thought the same.

My problem with the OP is that he gives out some really questionable advice and colors the whole process in a very negative light. Telling premeds that their advisors probably don't know **** is not good advice, its anecdotal and represents his very narrow view of advisors. A lot of schools have very competent advisors and premed committees, which could do a far better job of guiding premeds than his post ever will.

I don't even want to get started on the OP's ignorance and downright condescension of the allied health professions. Once again he is presenting his very narrow and uninformed opinion, this time on the allied health fields. Go back and read his views on Chiropractic medicine, they are really well thought out!

The OP claims he has been applying on and off for the past several years, and that he's been going to school part time. How about committing to the process? this isn't what i would call dedication, would you? If it was such a priority to him, why didn't he take out the loans and go back to school? I know that there maybe be circumstantial things we are not aware of, but, the fact remains med school doesn't seem to be too high on his priority list. Also, Why so much time in between MCATs? maybe because he was half heartedly going after his so called "dream".

And as for the rest of your post, I agree with all of it. Except for the paragraph with standing on a soapbox thing and preaching, both of which you were doing loudly. Though I can't understand why you felt the need to post your stats, they weaken your argument (that's a compliment).

And just remember, as a doctor, the ability to sit and cry with your patient doesn't mean anything if your too stupid to figure out the differential diagnosis.

 

Well Mr. Z, I respectfully disagree with your opinion of the OP. Personally, I think it's one of the most honest and cathertic things I've read here. There are many insights there that only age and experience can give. Being that I have not taken the path of the person writing the OP, I cannot refute or support their emotions. But I will say my path has lead a few matching conclusions.

I think a problem at a site like this is that if it's not upbeat and warm, then the kneejerk response is to disagree with it. So while many people comment on the sad or depressing tone of the OP, I see it as a motivation to really know your path. The point I find hitting home is "know your path and you'll will go far." I also read that it is important to be realistic, which is also valid. The reality is that low scores do not lead to admissions very often. So rather than reading a post about giving up I see it as one about moving on. I also see it as positive that adcoms saw that this person wasn't cut out for the field, and hopefully gave a spot in their class to someone more driven and better able to consume the information in medical school. It is a positive passage in many ways.

I completely agree with you that a sensitive doctor that gives me an incorrect diagnosis is worthless. They sure as he|| better sit and cry with me if they just lopped of the wrong body part or gave me the thorazine instead of erythromyacin.

Anyway, I have to commend the author on a few great points.

• 
  1. Some advisors are excellent (I hear the two advisors at Stanford are two of the best on the planet). Some are good and make a strong effort to be informed. Some have a good resource book from AAMC and they know how to reference it as needed. But there are difinitely some that are flat out bad and uninformed (perhaps too busy to be informed). Then there is the bottom of the barrel (the lady at UC Davis who is condescending and uninformed) who mislead students and give horrible critiques of personal statements.
  
  A smart pre-med does not blindly trust someone who may have just been cornered into the advisor position. They should seek other resources. I think the OP makes this point very well.
  
  2. Post-bach success is not always enough to overcome a less-than-average undergrad GPA. Be realistic that there are more people in post-bach programs that will not get into medical school than will. When you are young, you have time to make a few mistakes. When you are older, as is the case with many post-bach program students, you can't afford the mistakes as much.
  
  3. If you have a hard time getting good grades, psot-bach or not, you will have a hard time getting into medical school. It should be this way, because if undergrad is highly challenging, medical school will be overwhelming.
  
  4. It's always a good idea to have a back-up plan in life. Some interview questions center on this very idea. Having a short-term and long-term contigency plan does not show lack of dedication and perseverence... it shows common sense.
  
  5. I don't know much about Podietry school, but the comment about needing the witness relocation program to get off their mailing list was funny to me. Laughter is good, so while I can't comment on the point, the OP made me laugh.

I disagree with the OP's opinion on the MCAT. It is a well-written exam that makes you think. It is an excellent exam in and of itself, although I'm not sure how good of an indicator of medical school success it really is. The process of studying for the MCAT forces people to make connections about the material they've learned in ways they otherwise would never have done. It makes you understand things. It is the great equalizer for people who couldn't afford tutoring for all of their classes, couldn't get into to professor's office hours, couldn't get a hold of previous exams to memorize, and couldn't free of time from other aspects of life to study twenty-four seven.

It is a great measure of confidence, intelligence, common sense, and logic. Hard work can get you to a 30 (or so), but true understanding and good logic are needed to get the really high scores. It's a great test in that people who work really hard can scrape by and get high enough numbers to compliment a good GPA and get into medical school. It also allows a truly brilliant person the chance to shine. In the years I've been tutoring, I have to say it is very rare that an MCAT score is not a good indicator of BOTH the person's preparation (knowing the material and what to expect) and intelligence (having good test logic and a broad information base).

That said, the one cruel comment I have in response to the OP is that if you "prepared for the MCAT for six months, full-time, (yes, you read that correctly), took the Kaplan MCAT course, practically living in their office, and only got a 24," then I'm glad you got filtered. There is very little chance that the fast-pace of medical school would have worked for them.

Lastly, I tend to disagree with the OP when they advise "just realize the MCAT, as life, is not fair." I happen to think that the MCAT is as fair as a standardized test can be. They can't give everyone the same exam, so within that limitation, they do a great job at offering an exam that is uniformly standardized. I think the author of the OP somehow was convinced that the hours you put in should be rewarded by the score you get out. If that were true, then it would not reward innate intelligence, which I would argue is unfair. It is an exam that rewards both work and intelligence.

 

right on.. i totally agree.

this guy sounds like everyone else that tells us we cant do it. i will do it and i will do it well. i go to school full time and work full time and i have a 3.68 gpa. i plan to give it my all.

maybe the name of this thread should be "some ppl just aren't cut out for med school!"

 

did you ever hear of tongue in cheek? Learn to read things in context fool, it was in response to a comment made in the previous post.


I hope i don't get you as my doctor, you can't read or write. And what makes you think i wouldn't say it to your face, that's a little presumptuous, don't you think?

 

By the way Einstein, if you're gonna start busting on typographical errors, try to use grammatically correct sentence structure when you do so.

 

Z, this kinda behavior is not gonna be tolerated on SDN. Clean it up, please.

To everybody else: We are not going to tolerate condescending remarks about others on SDN. There's a fine line between criticism and outright word calling; have enough strikes against you and the Admins will make sure you can't post again.

This is not a threat, but a gentle reminder that we all need to be civil here.

Thank you,
Tweetie

 

Buckrogers, have you considered pursuing your medical education outside of the US?

There are plenty of programs that have more lenient admissions standards, but which can at the same time get you a US residency after graduation. I'm applying to a few of these, just in case things don't work out for me with the US schools. At the end of the day, it may be harder to get a Derm residency, but if you're like me and just want to practice medicine it may be worth the ignominy of going to a place like American University of the Caribbean (I've got a friend there who assures me they all get US residencies).

So, I wouldn't give up now, with all of your effort. Obsession or not, you clearly still want to practice medicine. I wouldn't give up, even now, until I've tried these non-US but good-quality schools...

 

Pardon my respectful disagreement, but how is what Mr. Z wrote such a bad thing? I fully understand and respect that you are in a position to interpret and enforce rules. But if calling someone a fool crosses the line, why allow the exchange of opinions at all? The term just doesn't seem that bad.

For me, I fully expect some of my opinions to land me a lable far worse than fool. If that is the case, I personally would take little offense. In fact, it would up the entertainment value. I hope after thinking about it for a while, the line is not that strict. Profanity has no place, nor do intentionally damaging and harsh terms. But fool seems like a fair judgement of an opinion you disagree with.

It just seems like a weird double standard that fool gets a warning while racist jabs are allowed in the pre-allo forum. I know it's not your forum or your task to filter there, but there are threads that contain racist comments FAR worse than calling someone a fool. JMO.

 

Completely agree with you on that one, Mudd. As you have mentioned, I can not address the people in PreAllo since I am not a PreAllo Moderator. I can however, report any inappropriate language to the PreAllo Mods and have them take care of it. And when other racial slurs have or will be used, you can bet that I am also going to PM the person and ask them to not use such language.

Calling somebody a fool is not bad, but in my opinion, this is cause for somebody to say worse. And that is why I had to make it clear not just to Z, but to others in the room to not carry on that line of arguement. Simply put, I had to be harsh before something worse was said.

In any case, I respect your opinion and think that I have addressed it. Z and I have talked it over and I have already let him know that I purposely had to appear "strict" so others may not retort back with worse words. Another moderator would have reacted in perhaps a better way, but I see nothing wrong with what I did, especially considering I took the time and explain my actions to Z in a private email. We have no hard feelings for each other.

Thanks for looking out for the fellow SDNers in the forum. It's good to know that we are all each other's advocates here.

Take care!
Tweetie

PS: if you see any profanity or racial slurs etc in PreAllo, why don't you contact me and I'll have it addressed in the Mod Forum? The Moderators try their best to keep the rooms clean, but we need help from other members to report stuff to us that they think is questionable. Feel free to PM me next time you see such a thing, okay?

 

Tweetie--

Thanks for a candid open forum reply. That is what makes you a GREAT moderator. You play with an open deck.

It is not easy being a moderator, because there will always be someone mad at you. But if your vision is always in the board's best interest, then it will all work out. Hurt feelings go away over time but damaged boards do not come back over time. You made a good choice to act, although I still think Mr Z was within his realm of good taste to use fool. My personal thesaurus has about 100 alternative words for that, all of which would likely land me in the banned realm. I think Z used good reason and judgement when he chose a gentle word. But I am not the moderator, you are, and in the interest of the board's existance, I 100% support your opinion.

I'm sure ol' Buck knew that his or her post would end up generating controversy, but I doubt he or she ever guessed that it would be language controvery. It is funny to see the evolution of a thread.

As for the racist comments, I am sure you've seen them too. While I appreciate the option to report (which is solid), I think debating someone in a thread is more effective. There is nothing like asking someone where they got some random statistic they posted about the inferiority of certain medical schools only to have them refute it with "I just heard it". It paints a better picture for the community here to see.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply Tweetie.

Mudd

 

Not to sound harsh, but I totally disagree. The MCAT is one of the best indicators of how one will do in medical school (I'm not saying how well of a doctor one will be). But, from the academic standpoint, this tests the reasoning skills and application of knowledge abilities which are essential to survival in medical school courses. I think your comment is just bitterness because you did not perform as well as you would have liked to (and obviously not well enough to gain acceptance). I agree with Mr. Z's view in that doctors need to have superior intelligence, and it just seems like you either don't meet this criterion, or you just don't have the heart and motivation that you have claimed. Either way, the MCAT has an excellent correlation with medical school success, and I feel that while your post does bring some valid points and advice for older applicants, it seems to be interspersed with personal anger for the system which you could not conquer. Just my 2 cents worth...Good luck in your future endeavors.