advice on 3 decreasing MCATs and MAMS

[omgitsjj]

So I'm here to ask advice for my brother because he is about to study for the MCAT for the 4th time BEFORE attempting to apply to a MAMS program. I personally think that he should be concentrating on applying to a MAMS program with a really good personal statement and depending on how well he does in the program, maybe he won't even need to re-take the MCAT.

Here is the story:
- low undergrad gpa (below 3.0)
- worked for a number of years, went back to same undergrad to do post-bacc at age ~28 (is now 31) and has replaced all previous sciences courses and taken more. Science gpa is now above 3.7
- but overall gpa still under 3.0
- took MCAT 3 times, with each score decreasing => 31, 28, 26
- clearly got burnt out + test-taking anxiety. Has since returned to work for about a year now and is ready to start again.
- has a lot of shadowing hours, research experience in neuro lab, and started a very popular organic chemistry club at his undergrad and was also an organic tutor

So I guess I'm looking for any kind of advice. He's a michigan resident, hoping to get into any kind of nearby MAMS program including Loyola or the MBS program at Wayne State or midwestern Illinois. All of course with the intention of applying to DO and MD programs (but mostly DO) afterwards.

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[LuluLovesMe]

Why didn't he just do grade replacement with his original MCAT score and apply DO?

 

[omgitsjj]

Why didn't he just do grade replacement with his original MCAT score and apply DO?

I think he was really gunning for MD schools so he wanted a killer MCAT score to balance out his poor gpa on his application. But with the decreasing scores, I think his only option is to do a MAMS program and DO. Any thoughts on his stats and his chances?

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I think he was really gunning for MD schools so he wanted a killer MCAT score to balance out his poor gpa on his application. But with the decreasing scores, I think his only option is to do a MAMS program and DO. Any thoughts on his stats and his chances?

He can still do grade replacement and go DO.

With a sub 3.0 GPA, he never had a shot at MD unless he did a SMP + aced the MCAT (>35)

I hate to see people waste time and money because they weren't properly advised on how to apply.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I think he was really gunning for MD schools so he wanted a killer MCAT score to balance out his poor gpa on his application. But with the decreasing scores, I think his only option is to do a MAMS program and DO. Any thoughts on his stats and his chances?

The decreasing MCAT scores look really bad right now. The ADCOMs might think he got lucky with the 31. If he plans to retake he needs to do much better to show that the 31 wasn't a fluke. It's also shows bad decision making skills. One day he will have to take the USMLE and they want to make sure he passes.

He might be able to get into a DO school right now if he isn't too picky.

How old are those scores?

 

[omgitsjj]

The decreasing MCAT scores look really bad right now. The ADCOMs might think he got lucky with the 31. If he plans to retake he needs to do much better to show that the 31 wasn't a fluke. It's also shows bad decision making skills. One day he will have to take the USMLE and they want to make sure he passes.

He might be able to get into a DO school right now if he isn't too picky.

How old are those scores?

They are 1-1.5 years old. I believe he took them within 6 months of each other. And that is a good point, I don't think he is picky at this point.

Going through a MAMS program and then taking the MCAT would be less risky than studying on his own I think since the material will be fresh. But if he doesn't do well on his 4th MCAT then it would've been a waste of time to go through the MAMS program. It's a tough situation

 

[omgitsjj]

He can still do grade replacement and go DO.

With a sub 3.0 GPA, he never had a shot at MD unless he did a SMP + aced the MCAT (>35)

I hate to see people waste time and money because they weren't properly advised on how to apply.

Yeah :/ I think he has gotten some not so great advice over the years.

 

[holdthemayo]

That MCAT seems like it will be very difficulty to overcome. Another low score might be game over. He needs to not retake the MCAT until he is absolutely certain he can score well on it.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

That MCAT seems like it will be very difficulty to overcome. Another low score might be game over. He needs to not retake the MCAT until he is absolutely certain he can score well on it.

He doesn't need to retake the MCAT even for DO. Even if it's been declining.

 

[omgitsjj]

He doesn't need to retake the MCAT even for DO. Even if it's been declining.

as in bringing up overall undergrad GPA with grade replacement and not going into MAMS? I don't know much about how that works regarding DO schools. Can you replace grades that are non-science courses?

- edit-
Actually silly question since he replaced his sciences grades. It would just require him to stay at his current undergrad I guess

 

[holdthemayo]

He doesn't need to retake the MCAT even for DO. Even if it's been declining.

Any of those scores would have been ok on their own, but the fact that he kept retaking and doing worse is going to show poor judgement. I think collectively the scores look worse than they do individually (or in the reverse order). I guess if he's not picky he will be fine for the DO cycle. Just be ready to answer questions about it.

as in bringing up overall undergrad GPA with grade replacement and not going into MAMS? I don't know much about how that works regarding DO schools. Can you replace grades that are non-science courses?

- edit-
Actually silly question since he replaced his sciences grades. It would just require him to stay at his current undergrad I guess

You can replace grades that are non-science courses. You do not need to retake them at the same school (though it may be easier if you do). Just make certain they are the same credit hours and course descriptions.

 

[DrMikeP]

IMO, he should stop retaking the MCAT and apply DO just to see if he gets any bites. His scores are not suggestive of likely success in getting in an MD program.

If not then go the SMP route.

 

[omgitsjj]

IMO, he should stop retaking the MCAT and apply DO just to see if he gets any bites. His scores are not suggestive of likely success in getting in an MD program.

If not then go the SMP route.

Is it possible to get into DO with a below 3.0 overall gpa?? Even if he's not being picky?

 

[DrMikeP]

Is it possible to get into DO with a below 3.0 overall gpa?? Even if he's not being picky?

Science GPA is above, so it might happen with DO even though it is still highly highly unlikely.

My real guess is that no he won't get in and it's time to find another career path, but he has put in so much effort that he needs to walk away saying he tried. If still dead set then SMP is the only option left and he'll likely get invites to several.

 

[omgitsjj]

Science GPA is above, so it might happen with DO even though it is still highly highly unlikely.

My real guess is that no he won't get in and it's time to find another career path, but he has put in so much effort that he needs to walk away saying he tried. If still dead set then SMP is the only option left and he'll likely get invites to several.

Yeah, he's dead set. And i agree, IMO with SMP he would have a separate gpa and a masters degree and that would carry a lot of weight versus all his other stuff.

 

[omgitsjj]

Thanks for everyone's input!! It seems most people are generally recommending him not to retake the MCAT. Whether or not he'll do SMP or grade replacement I am not sure, but hopefully he will have found the advice from this forum helpful.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

Is there a specific reason he retook a 31...other than the fact that he wanted a killer score? I'm no ADCOM but that alone before anything else is really gonna be hard to explain I would imagine...

With grade replacement and a 31 MCAT that first time around would have been fine I would imagine.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Science GPA is above, so it might happen with DO even though it is still highly highly unlikely.

My real guess is that no he won't get in and it's time to find another career path, but he has put in so much effort that he needs to walk away saying he tried. If still dead set then SMP is the only option left and he'll likely get invites to several.

What in the world...? I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your advice. He would definitely need an SMP for a chance at MD but for DO there are better options.

Yeah, he's dead set. And i agree, IMO with SMP he would have a separate gpa and a masters degree and that would carry a lot of weight versus all his other stuff.

If he doesn't do well people will tell him he had a chance before he did the SMP. The benefit/risk ratio doesn't look good.

He needs to make up as many classes as he can and apply DO. None of the MCAT scores were below 26. Some schools have average MCAT around 26! Some schools take the average of your MCAT, the highest sections of each MCAT, and others take the highest score. Did you know that?

 

[omgitsjj]

What in the world...? I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your advice. He would definitely need an SMP for a chance at MD but for DO there are better options.



If he doesn't do well people will tell him he had a chance before he did the SMP. The benefit/risk ratio doesn't look good.

He needs to make up as many classes as he can and apply DO. None of the MCAT scores were below 26. Some schools have average MCAT around 26! Some schools take the average of your MCAT, the highest sections of each MCAT, and others take the highest score. Did you know that?

Hmm, I see. Well, he has done very well in his post-bacc so I would think that he would also do well and bust his ass for the SMP, so I do not think that it is too risky. But it is true that boosting his overall gpa should be a no-brainer. At this point I do think time is also a factor. An SMP is 1-2 years depending on the program while re-taking a good number of his non-science undergrad classes to boost gpa would perhaps take the same amount of time w/o the added benefit of a masters degree.

I guess I'm stuck on this idea of the 'reinvention' and gaining a degree and a separate sgpa from a more rigorous program. But it does seem like grade replacement would be a safer bet in terms of benefit/risk ratio

And no I did not know that about MCAT scores. Sorry if I am a bit ignorant, med/DO school is not in my background! This forum was invaluable for me when I was applying to dent school so I thought I would post something for my brother to get some more information. Thank you for all your input!

 

[DrMikeP]

What in the world...? I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your advice. He would definitely need an SMP for a chance at MD but for DO there are better options.



If he doesn't do well people will tell him he had a chance before he did the SMP. The benefit/risk ratio doesn't look good.

He needs to make up as many classes as he can and apply DO. None of the MCAT scores were below 26. Some schools have average MCAT around 26! Some schools take the average of your MCAT, the highest sections of each MCAT, and others take the highest score. Did you know that?

I'm looking at the declining not increasing or stable MCAT and even after many science retakes his overall GPA is still below a 3.0. His science GPA just actually might get him some DO attention with the last MCAT at less competitive schools.

More DO schools might take him with a lot of nonscience retakes but then in 1-2yrs his old MCAT scores are expired so that means a definite MCAT retake to go down that path! After 2yr of nonscience courses the MCAT is even harder and right now he needs a break from the mcat. That's why I said apply and see vs a year or two of retakes.

An SMP is tough but med school isn't suddenly easier. So if he can do well in an SMP then he'd have a really serious shot and would have a better foundation for the MCAT. If he can pull a 3.7 sgpa now he has a really good chance in an SMP and may even land one with a guaranteed accpetance. A 3.7 smp with a strong MCAT then and he might even have a shot at MD.

He also needs to seriously consider if medicine is the right path, as the road ahead is much more risky, potentially without reward. If it is then great, but wasting years and dollars trying is not a light decision.

I absolutely wouldn't recommend this course of action to most but i think for OPs brother it's probably the one that will give him the strongest shot.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

w/o the added benefit of a masters degree.

The "masters degree" obtained from SMPs is absolutely worthless. An SMP is an audition for medical school, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[j4pac]

If I'm Admission guy (and I'm not), I'm concerned about the downward trend on MCAT. The MCAT is suppose to be a reflection of knowledge and knowledge application. If I see a 31 rapidly going down...I'm concerned about the student's focus and knowledge base. Something just isn't right. Perhaps it's burn-out...but whatever the reason...it wouldn't be my problem because I wouldn't accept him. But that's just me...someone who has absolutely no part of the process.

I don't usually recommend a master's program...but it wouldn't be a horrible idea. I think that the student is going to struggle matriculating with two HUGE red flags in regards to GPA and down-trending MCAT. It would take quite a bit for those two to be overcome...and take much longer than taking a post-bac. But with that said...people shouldn't be burnt out PRE-MED SCHOOL. Burn out should be happening at moment in med school and residency. I think that a burnt out med student needs to focus on recovering before pursuing medical school.

 

[omgitsjj]

If he can pull a 3.7 sgpa now he has a really good chance in an SMP and may even land one with a guaranteed accpetance. A 3.7 smp with a strong MCAT then and he might even have a shot at MD.

Is there such thing as an SMP with a guaranteed acceptance?? I thought there were only schools with a guaranteed interview if they are affiliated with a med school.

And that's true, I hadn't thought of the MCAT scores expiring. This is some really good food for thought, thank you !

 

[DrMikeP]

Is there such thing as an SMP with a guaranteed acceptance?? I thought there were only schools with a guaranteed interview if they are affiliated with a med school.

And that's true, I hadn't thought of the MCAT scores expiring. This is some really good food for thought, thank you !

To clarify, yes you are correct there are programs at particular schools that if you meet XYZ criteria (gpa, rec letters) they guarantee an interview, BUT then unless you screw that up you are in. Many reportedly accept a majority of their SMP students who do well. One student on SDN mentioned that during his SMP interview the particular school claimed 90% of their masters students who were successful were admitted to the med school, don't remember which program.

One that comes to mind just for example (I'm not recommending this one or not, as I haven't researched the quality of the specific program):
http://lecom.edu/academics/masters-degree-programs/master-of-medical-science/

 

[Goro]

Rule #1 when in a hole: STOP DIGGING!!

So I'm here to ask advice for my brother because he is about to study for the MCAT for the 4th time BEFORE attempting to apply to a MAMS program. I personally think that he should be concentrating on applying to a MAMS program with a really good personal statement and depending on how well he does in the program, maybe he won't even need to re-take the MCAT.

Here is the story:
- low undergrad gpa (below 3.0)
- worked for a number of years, went back to same undergrad to do post-bacc at age ~28 (is now 31) and has replaced all previous sciences courses and taken more. Science gpa is now above 3.7
- but overall gpa still under 3.0
- took MCAT 3 times, with each score decreasing => 31, 28, 26
- clearly got burnt out + test-taking anxiety. Has since returned to work for about a year now and is ready to start again.
- has a lot of shadowing hours, research experience in neuro lab, and started a very popular organic chemistry club at his undergrad and was also an organic tutor

So I guess I'm looking for any kind of advice. He's a michigan resident, hoping to get into any kind of nearby MAMS program including Loyola or the MBS program at Wayne State or midwestern Illinois. All of course with the intention of applying to DO and MD programs (but mostly DO) afterwards.